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Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

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The Barbarian

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YE creationists find common cause with atheists; neither of them accept God's word as it is.

ATHEISTS LAUGH AT OVAL EARTHERS WHO DO THEIR "WET WORK" FOR THEM...

Christians don't pay much attention to what atheists have to say about God and His creation. So we're not impressed with your quote-mining.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Christians don't pay much attention to what atheists have to say about God and His creation. So we're not impressed with your quote-mining.


"Christians don't pay much attention to what atheists have to say about God and His creation. So we're not impressed with your quote-mining."

Sure... But one wonders why YOUR position on everything is IDENTICAL to that of ALL Atheists!!

LOL.....
 
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The Barbarian

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Sure... But one wonders why YOUR position on everything is IDENTICAL to that of ALL Atheists!!

Ironic that you should say that, since you are constantly agreeing with atheists, even citing them as authorities, and I'm disagreeing with them. You and some atheists claim that evolution and God are inconsistent. Your position on everything seems to be identical to theirs.

But as you might know, the vast majority of Christians don't think evolution is inconsistent with God. And lots of atheists admit that evolution is consistent with creation.

You've merely cherry-picked the atheists who agree with you and presented them. So technically, your position on everything isn't identical to all atheists. You've just ignored the others and sided with the atheists who happen to have the same agenda you have.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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YE creationists find common cause with atheists; neither of them accept God's word as it is.



Christians don't pay much attention to what atheists have to say about God and His creation. So we're not impressed with your quote-mining.

"YE creationists find common cause with atheists; neither of them accept God's word as it is."


"20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!'

ISAIAH 5
 
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The Barbarian

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So "Primates" "..evolved from promisians" (funny looking lemurs) What did those funny looking lemurs evolve from? LOL

Well, let's ask your fellow YE creationist what the evidence shows...

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids)...Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e4d/0ab89242a5ddc40a8a74fc53361861fbcabf.pdf
(my emphasis)

He's an honest creationist; he prefers his interpretation of the Bible, but he's honest enough to admit the evidence.

More and more of them are like Dr. Wise, these days.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Ironic that you should say that, since you are constantly agreeing with atheists, even citing them as authorities, and I'm disagreeing with them. You and some atheists claim that evolution and God are inconsistent. Your position on everything seems to be identical to theirs.

But as you might know, the vast majority of Christians don't think evolution is inconsistent with God. And lots of atheists admit that evolution is consistent with creation.

You've merely cherry-picked the atheists who agree with you and presented them. So technically, your position on everything isn't identical to all atheists. You've just ignored the others and sided with the atheists who happen to have the same agenda you have.

"You and some atheists claim that evolution and God are inconsistent."

NOPE... Just the Judeo Christian God of the Bible is inconsistent with the S L O W microbes to man myth of Evolutionism..

Maybe your false god mary used evolution...

BT . Why are 99.9% of evolutionists also Abortionists? You probabaly are as well... it goes with the territory..
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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I'm pretty sure you're uncomfortable siding with atheists against your fellow Christians. Have you considered that maybe that fact is a good clue for you?

"I'm pretty sure you're uncomfortable siding with atheists against your fellow Christians"

Only people who have been born again of the spirit and have become members of Gods family in spirit and in truth are my "Fellow Christians" NOT ONE of them accept Satan's greatest lie of Evolutionism.. YOU Oval-Earther are the ones siding with Atheists, dont blame ME for your folly...
 
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The Barbarian

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Only people who have been born again of the spirit and have become members of Gods family in spirit and in truth are my "Fellow Christians"

As one of your fellow creationists says, it's a mistake to replace God with the idol of your belief in creationism. I'm sure you're frustrated, but attacking the faith of other Christians is a huge mistake for you, and one that will corrode your soul. Avoid it.

YOU Oval-Earther are the ones siding with Atheists,

See above. You're the one touting their opinions over the beliefs of other Christians. Everyone sees that. Calm yourself and try to act as Jesus would.
 
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The Barbarian

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Think of why you came here. Surely you didn't intend to make creationists look the way you're looking right now. There are lots of creationists who can debate without becoming angry and abusive. You can do it, too. I think you're sincere, and probably a pretty good person; I'd like to see that side of you, and I'm pretty sure most everyone else would like that, too.

And if you find that rationally discussing the issue leads you to a different understanding of His creation, that's very likely a good thing.

The last thing you want to do, is show your worst side to us. Think about it, then we'll talk, all right?
 
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If you truly believe this, you've given up your faith for a man-made ideology. That's really sad.



"I can only point to what you've done here, and in each case, you sided with the atheists, even touting their beliefs or lack of them."


Only people who have been born again of the spirit and have become members of Gods family in spirit and in truth are my "Fellow Christians" NOT ONE of them accept Satan's greatest lie of Evolutionism.. YOU Oval-Earther are the ones siding with Atheists, don't blame ME for your folly...
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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If you truly believe this, you've given up your faith for a man-made ideology. That's really sad.



I can only point to what you've done here, and in each case, you sided with the atheists, even touting their beliefs or lack of them.

Let go of your idol of "evolutionism." Find a way to make peace with God and His creation.

Here is a good website for our readers..

Of course this person is ANATHEMA to your religious cult of godless evolutionism...


X-Evolutionist.com

My Christian Testimony – How I Came to Believe in God


Hi there! My screen name is “X-Evolutionist”, but please call me “X” for short. I’m a Christian married lady in my fifties. I’ve only believed in God for a very short time considering my age. This site is about the things I learned that got me to believe.

I Was Raised Without a Belief in God
I was taught that life on earth came about by a process of time and chance from as far back as I can remember. It was all I had ever known. There was no need for God in my philosophy as the world made sense this way. Even though my world made sense without God, I was still curious if he existed. I know now that we were designed by God to have a desire to know him.

Over the years, I would often come across Christians and I would ask them why they believed in God. I always got the same two answers: either “I’ve always believed in God” or “The Bible tells me so”. Neither of these explanations were compelling arguments for the existence of God as far as I was concerned.

However, my world was about to turn upside down…

Back to Top
I Met Some Friends Who Were Creationists
When I was over forty, I met some people who were Christians, and like always, I asked them why they believed that God existed. Surprisingly, they had something totally different to say. They said that they knew God existed because, according to them, the scientific evidence points to creation, and not evolution, and thus to a creator. Of course, I knew that they were ignorant, and I told them so.

But, they were very confident in what they believed. They basically dared me to read a book to see if they were right. I fought it for months, but, I ended up deciding that it wouldn’t hurt to read a book.

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They Dared Me to Read A Book about Fossils
They loaned me a book about fossils. The book didn’t really have anything different than I had always been taught over the years in science classes, natural history museums and television nature shows, but it used some logical arguments that I had never heard before.


Fossils: Key to the Present
Duane Gish and Richard B. Bliss


It showed that the fossil record consists of separate and distinct types of animals with no blending in between as we are led to expect from the theory of evolution. The conclusion was that the basic types of animals were created by God and then genetic variation took off from there and developed the different types of animals within each group. For example, Collies, German Shepherds and St. Bernards are just different types of dogs, as are wolves and coyotes. Please see my page: Using the Dog-Kind of Animal to Disprove Evolution

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I Read a Book about the Origin of Life – Life Required a Creator
They loaned me another book about the origin of life, how complicated life is, and how difficult it would be for life to be a product of time and chance. The book concludes that life had to be created by God.

Origin of Life
Richard B. Bliss


We in the United States are taught in public school that life was formed over time by chance. But, I have learned that this is not supported by scientific evidence.

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I Read a Book about How the Scientific Evidence Matches What Is In the Bible
I read yet another book. This book, like the others, concentrated on the scientific evidence against evolution and for creation. By the time I started reading this book I had an insatiable curiosity to read more and more books.

Many Infallible Proofs
Henry M. Morris

This book explained that events in the first eleven chapters of the book of Genesis in the Bible fit in with the scientific evidence of the world. For instance, this book shows that the fossil record was actually caused by a world-wide flood.

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I Was Surprised To Find That So Many Scientists Did Not Believe In Evolution
Most of the books I read were by scientists. This really surprised me because all my life I’d been told that evolution was “scientific” and creation was “religious”. Now, I was reading books by scientists who believed that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” as it says in the first verse of the Bible.

I was particularly interested in the scientific information because I had always been interested in science. But, as the authors were Christians, they always wove the reasons they believed the Bible through the books.

As I was learning about the fossil evidence and geology, etc, I was also learning how these things fit with what the Bible said about creation, the flood and the Tower of Babel, among other things. I learned that the Old Testament was compatible with physical and biological evidence.

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Meanwhile, I Started Going to Church – And Still Read More Books by Scientists
My insatiable reading continued and I read many books. During this time, I also began dating and then fell in love with one of my friends who initially told me why he believed in God. I started going to church with him. Before church he would rehearse with the other musicians that did the music for church and I would read my books.

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At Some Point, I No Longer Believed In Evolution, but I Did Not Believe In God, Either
At some point into my reading I stopped believing that evolution was supported by the scientific evidence. But, on the other hand, I still did not believe in God or creation, either. This was a very confusing period of time for me. I also was reading the Bible by this time even though I did not believe in God. During church I would listen to the music and the sermon politely, I but never believed any of it – until one morning about nine months after I started reading that first book about fossils.

Back to Top
Suddenly, I Was Filled With the Holy Spirit
One Sunday morning during rehearsal I was reading one of my books and I suddenly started to cry. I didn’t know why. But I kept reading. I started to shake and continued to cry, but I kept reading. All of a sudden, I felt something that I can only describe as being filled by God. I suddenly believed everything. I believed in God, I believed that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” and I believed that Jesus is the name of God.

My boyfriend was still rehearsing, but he could see that something was happening to me. When rehearsal was over he came to sit by me and we both cried during church. After church, the pastor’s wife came running over to me. It was obvious what was happening to me.

Back to Top
I Accepted Jesus as My Lord and Savior
At this point I couldn’t talk because I was crying and shaking so much, but she led me through a prayer and I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and became born again as a Christian.

This all happened during nine months during the year 1996. Since then, I have kept reading more books. Each book gives me more and more confirmation of what I now know to be true.

Back to Top
Now I Want To Tell You Why I Believe In God
Now, I want to share the things I’ve learned with others. I want others to know that there is scientific proof that God exists.

I feel that God has a plan for me. I believe that He had me wait until now to believe in God so I would be passionate about telling others why I believe.

By the way, a short time after I became a Christian my boyfriend proposed marriage and we are now very happily married.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Think of why you came here. Surely you didn't intend to make creationists look the way you're looking right now. There are lots of creationists who can debate without becoming angry and abusive. You can do it, too. I think you're sincere, and probably a pretty good person; I'd like to see that side of you, and I'm pretty sure most everyone else would like that, too.

And if you find that rationally discussing the issue leads you to a different understanding of His creation, that's very likely a good thing.

The last thing you want to do, is show your worst side to us. Think about it, then we'll talk, all right?


"The last thing you want to do, is show your worst side to us."

That nice lady from Australia (Cofee4U) BLOCKED you...
When I asked her why, she told me you were very rude …

Don't be such a HYPOCRITE...

Evolution%20in%20Jeopardy.jpg
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Well, let's ask your fellow YE creationist what the evidence shows...

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids)...Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e4d/0ab89242a5ddc40a8a74fc53361861fbcabf.pdf
(my emphasis)

He's an honest creationist; he prefers his interpretation of the Bible, but he's honest enough to admit the evidence.

More and more of them are like Dr. Wise, these days.


So "Primates" "..evolved from promisians" (funny looking lemurs) What did those funny looking lemurs evolve from? LOL
 
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The Barbarian

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Here is a good website for our readers..

Of course this person is ANATHEMA to your religious cult of godless evolutionism...

You're wrong again. If a person is truly lost, and he finds his way though a religion that denies evolution, it doesn't matter. He's still saved, even if he doesn't accept God's creation of living things. God doesn't care at all if he likes or even believes evolution; that's not how we are judged.

He would be deluded, of course, and as your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Todd Wood admits, one can put one's salvation at risk by making an idol of creationism.

But most creationists aren't like that. So this guy is fortunate, even if he's deluded about evolution; he found salvation in God, and that is what matters.

So why don't we just ignore the issue? Well, there are practical considerations. And God, being Truth, the truth matters. And then there's the problem of so many creationists losing their faith entirely when they realize that YE creationism is false.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.
Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

This is the real damage YE creationism does to faith. It's a real and continuing problem.
 
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The Barbarian

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So "Primates" "..evolved from promisians" (funny looking lemurs) What did those funny looking lemurs evolve from? LOL

Your fellow YE creationist, Kurt Wise, says that there is very good evidence for that in the fossil record.

Would you like me to show you that, again?

BTW, scientists don't think natural selection is "eternal, all-powerfull...etc." Your cartoon illustrates another common creationist superstition.
 
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If you are, your behavior should show it. Your increasingly angry and strident behavior suggests otherwise. I don't know what YOU are. A cynic would probably conclude you were an Atheist dressed up as an extremely indoctrinated creationist but that makes no difference to me.. Jesus said it best..

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

You've given other Christians here very little evidence that you are a follower of Jesus. You've abandoned reason, and exposed a rather unChristlike dislike for Christians who don't agree with your doctrines.




As you now realize I merely accept God's word as it is, without your additions. I don't think you mean to call God a liar. And His Son is also God to us; at least those of us who are orthodox Trinitarian Christians. Is that the problem here?



You can always make things worse for yourself by becoming angry and abusive. This hasn't worked out very well for you. I get that. But the absolute worse thing you can do, is become angry, abandon whatever your argument was, and indulge in false accusations. It's no doing you any good at all.



God created you by natural means. You distant ancestors evolved from other primates, not microbes. You're really attached to that idea, but it's not true. Humans evolved from other primates.



For quite a while, you were making me happy; discussing the doctrines of creationism is very useful and instructive. Then you got frustrated, and started focusing on how much you dislike the Evil Barbarian©. Now, you're not doing yourself or us any good.



For a while, you were very helpful with that. Then...

"As you now realize I merely accept God's word as it is, without your additions"

Projectionism on steroids...
I'm sure you're frustrated, but attacking the faith of other Christians is a huge mistake for you, and one that will corrode your soul. Avoid
You're wrong again. If a person is truly lost, and he finds his way though a religion that denies evolution, it doesn't matter. He's still saved, even if he doesn't accept God's creation of living things. God doesn't care at all if he likes or even believes evolution; that's not how we are judged.

He would be deluded, of course, and as your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Todd Wood admits, one can put one's salvation at risk by making an idol of creationism.

But most creationists aren't like that. So this guy fortunate, even if he's deluded about evolution; he found salvation in God, and that is what matters.

So why don't we just ignore the issue? Well, there are practical considerations. And God, being Truth, the truth matters. And then there's the problem of so many creationists losing their faith entirely when they realize that YE creationism is false.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.
Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

This is the real damage YE creationism does to faith. It's a real and continuing problem.


"So "Primates" "..evolved from promisians" (funny looking lemurs) What did those funny looking lemurs evolve from? LOL"
 
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The Barbarian

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"So "Primates" "..evolved from promisians" (funny looking lemurs) What did those funny looking lemurs evolve from? LOL"

According to your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise, there is very good fossil evidence:

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates)...Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e4d/0ab89242a5ddc40a8a74fc53361861fbcabf.pdf
 
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The Barbarian

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I don't think very much, and I'm not sure I'm so bothered. I am not molecular biologist. But I do have a question: apropo the current pandemic, a professor of virology tells me that a virus is not a living thing. I understand that the corona virus is RNA that cannot reproduce by itself; it is a chain of molecules. Yet viruses mutate, i.e. evolve. The common cold is a corona virus that has mutated into numerous varieties. Does this constitue evidence of evolution at the molecular level? If the virus is not a living thing, is it even part of "biology?"

Missed this earlier. Yes, by most definitions of "alive", viruses are not alive. They are, however, capable of reproduction, and they do mutate and evolve over time.

This may indicated some "evolution" of pre-living molecules; there have been self-replicating molecules prepared in labs, and yes, they do evolve. It's an open question at this point. Viruses, because the evidence shows that they came from cellular living things, don't really count in that sense.

But it's likely that there were a number of self-replicating systems before life appeared, and it does seem likely that when life was brought forth from the earth, one of those systems was involved.
 
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