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Why do you feel a NEED for theistic evolution?

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Job 33:6

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WHY WOULD YOU "EXPECT" TO SEE DNA FRAGMENTS IN A 100 MILLION YEARS OLD CREATURE?

"Because DNA tends to degrade over time"

LOL. So THATS your answer? Because DNA degrade over time THEREFORE you should EXPECT (you words) to see it after 100,000,000 years? BECAUSE IT DEGRADES OVER TIME??????

Exhibit A for out readers ....

What Barbarian is saying actually makes perfect sense.

In paleontology, fragments of bones typically exist in the fossil record, as opposed to a fully fleshed out version of say, a tiktaalik.

Just the same, fragments or remnants of organics that might resemble some qualities of historic biological organics may exist over deep time, but obviously nobody is sitting around sequencing dinosaur DNA because it's all degraded and/or gone.

I've said this before, but if young earth creationism were true, we would expect to sequence genomes of just about every fossil and would have long re-invented Jurassic Park.

But in reality, we've only been able to sequence dna of relative recent species like mammoths, neanderthals and sabertooth tigers (these that lived 10-15,000 years ago). Species that were around within the past 1 million years might have sequencable DNA, but as we go back 50 million, 100 million, 200 million, 500 million, 1 billion years etc, nothing by way of sequencable DNA has been found, only degraded and petrified remnants at most.

Research suggests that DNA can last some 8 million years at least, so if dinosaurs for example, truly did die out 3000 years ago, there shouldn't be any trouble on the part of young earth Creationists finding it.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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How silly. Humans evolved from other primates. Thought you knew.



You still haven't explained why you think there are only 10 in humans, and why you think they all had to be there at once. Sponges lack almost all of them, and they do fine. Cnidarians lack most of them, but they do have a nervous system. Planarians don't have hearts or lungs, but they do fine. You're trying to project your imagination on the world, and it's not a good fit.



You got that wrong, too. For example, lungs. The most primitive lungs are in fish. Small chordates were able to absorb enough oxygen from their digestive tract to live. Some still do. As they got larger, the digestive tract increased surface area to form pockets. Some still have these very primitive lungs. As the fish got larger and more active, the surface area of the lungs increased by infolding. So we have primitive alveoli. And so on. As yo now realize this evolved gradually over time. There are plenty of examples; would you like me to show you some?

Pick a different organ and I'll show you that, if you like.

However, there is an important clue as to the first organelle absolutely necessary for cellular life. That is, the cell membrane. No membrane, no cell. And it's instructive that the cell membrane remains the simplest and most easily-formed organelle, even in humans. It's a simple phospholipid bilayer that spontaneously forms sheets and vesicles. So there you are.

You believe in your fairy-tale idea of "evolutionism", because you're emotionally unable to accept God's creation as it is. Evolution is far more sensible than your "evoltuionism", and it has the virtue of being true.



I'm not trying to upset you. I'm trying to help you. You won't necessarily go to hell for being a creationist, but if you accept God's creation as it is, you will have a better relationship with Him and with His people.

I fear you've made an idol of your new doctrines, and that can separate you from Him. Let it be His way, and make your peace with His creation.


"You still haven't explained why you think there are only 10 in humans, and why you think they all had to be there at once. Sponges lack almost all of them, and they do fine. Cnidarians lack most of them, but they do have a nervous system. Planarians don't have hearts or lungs, but they do fine."

So by presenting OTHER much more simple yet ALSO irreducibly complex creatures and completely DODGING the question you pretend you gave an "answer" LOL You are like the guy who wants people to believe that the ocean can occasionally spit out Swiss Gold Rolex Watches because he found a cheap Timex BY THE SEASHORE!!!

Try to FOCUS.. I am talking about HUMANS.. please provide a plausible or even hypothetical chronological order for our 10 VITAL organs.. You know the list.. Stop playing dumb...
 
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The Barbarian

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You still haven't explained why you think there are only 10 in humans, and why you think they all had to be there at once. Sponges lack almost all of them, and they do fine. Cnidarians lack most of them, but they do have a nervous system. Planarians don't have hearts or lungs, but they do fine.

So by presenting OTHER much more simple yet ALSO irreducibly complex creatures

As you just learned, irreducible complexity evolves like anything else. The point is, what you assumed to be absolute limits on what has to be in a living thing, aren't limits at all. As you saw in the case of lungs, they evolved gradually, with each step in the process being useful to the organisms that had them.

Try to focus. You're learning how things evolve. Humans didn't evolve from half-humans; they evolved from other primates that were fully formed organisms in their own right.

You just learned how lungs evolved by gradual steps. Which organ would you like to learn about, next?
 
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The Barbarian

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LOL... None of this insane garbage is new to me..

I can see it's a complete shock to you, to see it for the first time. You don't even know the basic points of Darwinian theory, but you think you're qualified to tell us about it. I'm guessing that one of those YE websites got you all primed with what they told you were sure-fire arguments against evolution, and then cut you lose to take your lumps.

Be more careful who you trust, next time.
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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But as you learned, this isn't DNA, it's reported to be fragments of decomposed DNA.

You've fooled yourself.



But as you learned, it looks like fragments of DNA. Would you like me to show you, again?



DNA is a double helix, made of nitrogenous bases, joined by deoxyribose. That wasn't found, as you learned earlier.



But of course, it wasn't. It appears to be fragments of decomposed DNA. Which is what you'd expect from fossils that old.


"But of course, it wasn't. It appears to be fragments of decomposed DNA. Which is what you'd expect from fossils that old. "

So you'd EXPECT to find fragments of decomposed DNA? Based on WHAT?? Exactly??

No, Let me tell you what you would EXPECT to find.... ZERO fragments and ZERO decomposed DNA..

But you don't WANT to believe that because it would prove that God was right when he said that he created everything in 6 literal 24 hour days.... When someone sides with the Atheists position EVERY TIME, I start to wonder why....
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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I can see it's a complete shock to you, to see it for the first time. You don't even know the basic points of Darwinian theory, but you think you're qualified to tell us about it. I'm guessing that one of those YE websites got you all primed with what they told you were sure-fire arguments against evolution, and then cut you lose to take your lumps.

Be more careful who you trust, next time.

"Be more careful who you trust, next time."

Right, I should be more careful about trusting Jesus and so "next time" I should just trust you instead.. Got it!

Lenin coined a phrase for people who supported his cause of the Communist revolution while knowing full well that they were going to be the FIRST ones to face the firing squad....

He called them "Useful Idiots",, Atheists know full well why Darwinian Evolution was made popular and why it must be protected at all cost IN SPITE OF all of the Evidence AGAINST IT.

Atheists are Laughing at you while Christians Mourn for you and the damage you are doing to God's kingdom because of your arrogance that you somehow know more than God does about HIS Creation

How about the Garden of Eden ? God described it in detail in his word
What do YOU have to say about it? Should we believe God? Or you?

Jesus described the world wide flood in detail, Was Jesus ignorant or lying about it?

"As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man." Matt 24

How about this? How does this square with millions of years of microbes to man? Hint IT DOESNT.. Who to Believe Jesus? or you!..

Jesus answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ Matt 19


AND FINALLY.. Guess who this person Abel is that Jesus was talking about in Luke 11. That's right, It is the same Abel who was murdered by his brother Cain. Do you know who their parents would have been? Yup... Adam and Eve, From the Garden of Eden.

"As a result, this generation will be charged with the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the foundation of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, all of it will be charged to this generation. "
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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What Barbarian is saying actually makes perfect sense.

In paleontology, fragments of bones typically exist in the fossil record, as opposed to a fully fleshed out version of say, a tiktaalik.

Just the same, fragments or remnants of organics that might resemble some qualities of historic biological organics may exist over deep time, but obviously nobody is sitting around sequencing dinosaur DNA because it's all degraded and/or gone.

I've said this before, but if young earth creationism were true, we would expect to sequence genomes of just about every fossil and would have long re-invented Jurassic Park.

But in reality, we've only been able to sequence dna of relative recent species like mammoths, neanderthals and sabertooth tigers (these that lived 10-15,000 years ago). Species that were around within the past 1 million years might have sequencable DNA, but as we go back 50 million, 100 million, 200 million, 500 million, 1 billion years etc, nothing by way of sequencable DNA has been found, only degraded and petrified remnants at most.

Research suggests that DNA can last some 8 million years at least, so if dinosaurs for example, truly did die out 3000 years ago, there shouldn't be any trouble on the part of young earth Creationists finding it.


"What Barbarian is saying actually makes perfect sense."

Not is you read it and try to understand it in which case it makes ZERO sense.. Go ahead and post it again for our audience and put the words "It makes perfect sense" right after it.. Please! Pretty Please!

So just so I can try to understand.. During the course of "500 Million Years" While Living in the same environment (shallow coastal waters) at the same exact time, (500 MYs till today) while SOME comb Jellyfish were evolving into Humans, OTHER comb Jellyfish were evolving into.. comb Jellyfish..(Living Fossils) And you believe I am being unreasonable for pointing out the silliness of such a religious belief?
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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I can see it's a complete shock to you, to see it for the first time. You don't even know the basic points of Darwinian theory, but you think you're qualified to tell us about it. I'm guessing that one of those YE websites got you all primed with what they told you were sure-fire arguments against evolution, and then cut you lose to take your lumps.

Be more careful who you trust, next time.


So just so I can try to understand.. During the course of "500 Million Years" While Living in the same environment (shallow coastal waters) at the same exact time, (500 MYs till today) while SOME comb Jellyfish were evolving into Humans, OTHER comb Jellyfish were evolving into.. comb Jellyfish..("Living Fossils") And you believe I am being unreasonable for pointing out the silliness of such a religious belief?
Bwahahahah The jokes again write themselves...
"The miracles required to make evolution feasible are far greater in number and far harder to believe than the miracle of creation." (Dr. Richard Bliss, former professor of biology and science education)

2d89f4ff0fe1453115d99905f453e5f2.jpg
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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I can see it's a complete shock to you, to see it for the first time. You don't even know the basic points of Darwinian theory, but you think you're qualified to tell us about it. I'm guessing that one of those YE websites got you all primed with what they told you were sure-fire arguments against evolution, and then cut you lose to take your lumps.

Be more careful who you trust, next time.

"I'm guessing that one of those YE websites got you all primed with"

LOL.... I WRITE for those websites... Hahahah....


So just so I can try to understand.. During the course of "500 Million Years" While Living in the same environment (shallow coastal waters) at the same exact time, (500 MYs till today) while SOME comb Jellyfish were evolving into Humans, OTHER comb Jellyfish were evolving into.. comb Jellyfish..("Living Fossils") And you believe I am being unreasonable for pointing out the silliness of such a religious belief?
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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Actually, the sun is hardly ever precisely 93 million miles away. It varies by over a million miles. When it's summer in the Northern Hemisphere, it's more like 94 million miles. The consensus is that the average distance is about 93 million miles.

Nobody says the consensus is that the sun is 93 million miles away.

"Actually, the sun is hardly ever precisely 93 million miles away."


Does ANYONE see the word "precisely" in that first sentence?


BACTERIAL RESISTANCE IS EVOLUTION??

So, I’ll just debunk this nonsense. The bacterium that become resistant to the antibiotic is not the result of a mutation increasing information to the genome as Evolutionism "predicts", but rather a loss of sensitivity or less fitness in another way.

This happens due to a point mutation that changes the site of the ribosome so the drug molecule cannot attach to it therefore, it prevents the drug molecule attaching to the sites of the ribosome and interfering with the making of the proteins. Any one of several changes in the attachment site on the ribosomal site is enough to spoil its match with the mycin, this means that change in any one of several DNA nucleotides in the corresponding gene can confer resistance for the bacterium.

As a result, the ribosome loses specificity of the protein. Even though resistance is gained, it's gained not by adding something, but by losing something in exchange for the resistance. Another mechanism in which the bacterium can be resistant to the drug is by sacrificing enzymes (also loses or degrades genetic information due to the loss of catalyst for biochemical reactions) that alter the drug from being active and thus making the bacterium practically less fit in some other way.

Here’s an article from nature supporting what I say about adaptation though loss-of-function mutations.

http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v14/n9/full/nrg3557.html

What about E.colI and its new ability to take citrate?.

The citric acid, tricarboxcylic acid (TCA), generates and utilizes citrate in its normal oxidative metabolism of glucose and other carbohydrates. And E.coli is normally capable of utilizing citrate as an energy source under anaerobic conditions, with a whole suite of genes involved in its fermentation.

This includes a citrate transporter gene that codes for a transporter protein embedded in the cell wall that takes citrate into the cell. This suite of genes (operon) is usually only activated under anaerobic conditions. So, an existing transporter gene, such as the one that normally takes up tartrate, which does not normally transport citrate, mutated such that it lost specificity and could then transport citrate into the cell. The transporter gene lost the ability to regulate when it was going to let the citrate inside of the cell

And at last, let me refute the lie that the darwinists feed us... which is nylon-eating bacteria.

This was also a lost of specificity similar to E.coli that happened due to a frame-shift mutation. Nylonase usually breaks down a very similar substance that is composed of multiple strings of carbon based molecules, the basic components used to make nylon come from coal and oil, which originally come from decayed carbon rich organic matter, and many molecules in living things are long strings of carbon based molecules as well, this means that with a lost of a specificity (frame-shift mutation), it could also allow nylon. This is what happened and the mutations was passed along through plasmids. In fact, Nylonase now takes different molecules that cause it to degenerate because it has lost its specificity. This is really bad for the bacterium because the ability of the enzyme to allow it to filer out the molecules that caused it to degenerate is now LOST

This is from the Journal of Biological Chemistry. “ 6-Aminohexanoate-dimer hydrolase (EII), responsible for the degradation of nylon-6 industry by-products, and its analogous enzyme (EII′) that has only ∼0.5% of the specific activity toward the 6-aminohexanoate-linear dimer, are encoded on plasmid pOAD2 of Arthrobacter sp. (formerly Flavobacterium sp.) KI72.”

http://www.jbc.org/content/280/47/39644.abstract

In conclusion, ALL mutations are degradative or neutral in the genome. They do NOT add anything new function to it which is why Darwinian evolution FAILS.

"I think in fifty years, Darwinian evolution will be gone from the science curriculum...I think people will look back on it and ask how anyone could, in their right mind, have believed this, because it's so implausible when you look at the evidence."

(Dr. Johnathan Wells, author of the book, "Icons of Evolution")



"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist"
Richard Dawkins

www.evolutionfairytale.com
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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I can see it's a complete shock to you, to see it for the first time. You don't even know the basic points of Darwinian theory, but you think you're qualified to tell us about it. I'm guessing that one of those YE websites got you all primed with what they told you were sure-fire arguments against evolution, and then cut you lose to take your lumps.

Be more careful who you trust, next time.

"I can see it's a complete shock to you, to see it for the first time. You don't even know the basic points of Darwinian theory,"

Another logical fallacy, This one is a variation of "begging the question" (You can look it up for extra credit) For starters, The Fairytale of Evolutionism (BB / Abiogenesis / SLOW Microbe to Man) is not a "theory" but merely a hypothetical hypothetical hypothesis,,, and neither is Darwin's idiotic fantasy of "Evolution" a "Theory".

Evolution is NOT a scientific theory. It fails the requirement of falsifiability that is the litmus test for judging whether an investigation is scientific.

The modern scientific method is defined in terms of hypotheses, theories and laws. The difference between each is the level of acceptance in the scientific community. What they all have in common is that they must be falsifiable. This means that it must be possible to run an experiment that would prove the theory (or hypothesis or law) wrong, if it were not true.

Empiricism (a basis in experiment) is what gives science it's credibility. It means that a scientist in Poland does not have to take your word for it - they can do their own experiment and attempt to disprove it for themselves. The falsifiability part prevents people from coming up with theories that can only be proved right. Evolution fails both of these tests. There is no experiment that can test the theory. Any new evidence that comes to light cannot disprove the theory - only either back it up or call for a modification of the evolutionary tree or a modification of the theory.

Natural selection is a scientific theory. Evolution differs from natural selection by including the ideas of common ancestry and beneficial mutation. Just because a theory is not scientific does not mean that it has no merit. However, claiming that such a theory is scientific lends it undeserved authority and diminishes the authority of science. For example, it opens the door to the inclusion of creation theory and intelligent design as scientific theories. More significantly, it reinforces a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is and why it has proven to be such a powerful tool for unlocking nature's secrets.

The modern scientific method arose during the scientific revolution - after the renaissance. Observation of nature and speculation do form part of the scientific method. That is how new hypotheses are formed. However, they should be checked to establish whether they are scientific or not.
 
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The Barbarian

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BACTERIAL RESISTANCE IS EVOLUTION??

Since you still don't know what the definition of "evolution" is, you're still struggling in the dark.

So, I’ll just debunk this nonsense. The bacterium that become resistant to the antibiotic is not the result of a mutation increasing information to the genome as Evolutionism "predicts", but rather a loss of sensitivity or less fitness in another way.

Nope. For example, one strain of Pseudomonas simply obtained a gene by lateral transfer of a plasmid from a different species of bacteria. The new gene was just added to the genetic information in the bacterial cell. Didn't lose anything, just gained a new gene.

This goes back to the point that you don't know what you're talking about. You have no clue at all as to what information is in a biological system, much less how it works.

This was also a lost of specificity similar to E.coli that happened due to a frame-shift mutation. Nylonase usually breaks down a very similar substance that is composed of multiple strings of carbon based molecules, the basic components used to make nylon come from coal and oil, which originally come from decayed carbon rich organic matter, and many molecules in living things are long strings of carbon based molecules as well, this means that with a lost of a specificity (frame-shift mutation), it could also allow nylon. This is what happened and the mutations was passed along through plasmids. In fact, Nylonase now takes different molecules that cause it to degenerate because it has lost its specificity. This is really bad for the bacterium because the ability of the enzyme to allow it to filer out the molecules that caused it to degenerate is now LOST

You've been misled there, too. Indeed, numerous bacteria have gotten the new gene via plasmid transfer,without the loss of any existing genes.

J. Bact.
Plasmid-determined enzymatic degradation of nylon oligomers.
S Negoro, T Taniguchi, M Kanaoka, H Kimura, H Okada
Plasmid-determined enzymatic degradation of nylon oligomers.

Again, you're in completely over your head, and assuming all sorts of fairytale explanations, because you don't know how these things work.

In conclusion, ALL mutations are degradative or neutral in the genome.

As you now realize, that's wrong. The transfer of a plasmid to Psuedmonas didn't degrade any function the bacterium already had, but make it capable of using a new food source.

Learn from this.
 
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The Barbarian

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A
Evolution is NOT a scientific theory.

You just learned that it's an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is the theory that explains it. You've confused the phenomenon with the theory, again

As you demonstrated, you don't even know what evolutionary theory is. Or would you like to prove me wrong, and tell me what the four points of Darwinian theory are?
 
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LOL.... I WRITE for those websites... Hahahah....

No, I don't think so. Most of the guys who write for those sites know more than you have shown us.

Most of them, for example actually know what evolution is.
 
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So just so I can try to understand.. During the course of "500 Million Years" While Living in the same environment (shallow coastal waters) at the same exact time, (500 MYs till today) while SOME comb Jellyfish were evolving into Humans,

That's just another story they told you. Humans evolved from other primates. Your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise, admits that the fossil record for human evolution is "surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory." He's an honest creationist; he doesn't accept evolution,but he isn't willing to lie about it, like so many other YE creationists.

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e4d/0ab89242a5ddc40a8a74fc53361861fbcabf.pdf
 
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jJIM THINNSEN

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That's just another story they told you. Humans evolved from other primates. Your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise, admits that the fossil record for human evolution is "surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory." He's an honest creationist; he doesn't accept evolution,but he isn't willing to lie about it, like so many other YE creationists.

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e4d/0ab89242a5ddc40a8a74fc53361861fbcabf.pdf


So just so I can try to understand.. During the course of "500 Million Years" While Living in the same environment (shallow coastal waters) at the same exact time, (500 MYs till today) while SOME comb Jellyfish were evolving into Humans, OTHER comb Jellyfish were evolving into.. comb Jellyfish..("Living Fossils") And you believe I am being unreasonable for pointing out the silliness of such a religious belief? Bwahahahah The jokes again write themselves...

"That's just another story they told you"

Wow... You really don't know much about your OWN science fiction novel about "Long Ago and Far Away" do you!

Or are you claiming that YOU are the authority of how the Science Fiction of Darwin is supposed to be written and NOT The Scientists and Evolutionary Biologists from Vanderbilt and Wisconsin-Madison universities? LOL

Boffins discover origins of life on Earth – and we are all descended from JELLYFISH

Oh, while you are at it, please write a letter to the scientists from the University of Miami and the National Human Genome Research Institute (NHGRI) in Maryland. Do me a favor and tell them to stop saying we descended from comb Jellyfish because YOU not only told me that their opinion doesn't count because YOU are the self proclaimed spokesman for the "Evolutionary Scientific Community" and YOU are the authority of how the SCIENCE FICTION NOVEL is supposed to be written...

Did humans descend from JELLYFISH? | Daily Mail Online


Now THIS is the point where you are supposed to say that you were wrong and you are sorry for trying to pretend you know more about the subject than I do.. But.. It never happens because Evolutionists don't care about the truth.

I would tell you to Learn from this but you won't. The only reason I continue to respond isn't for you as I know you are a lost cause.. I respond for other people who may read these posts in the future. I love to expose Satan's greatest lie of Evolutionism.. It is kind of my thing.. Know what I mean?

"It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as a student....have now been debunked." (Dr. Derek V. Ager, Department of Geology, Imperial College, London)


The Scientific Case Against Evolution
A Review of Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crisis & Michael J. Behe's Darwin's Black Box

by Robert Locke

I AM NOT A CREATIONIST, and must confess that until recently, I treated people who questioned evolution with polite dismissal. But there has recently emerged a major trend in biology that has been suppressed in the mainstream media: evolution is in trouble. More importantly, this has absolutely nothing to do with religion but is due to the fact that the ongoing growth of biological knowledge keeps producing facts that contradict rather than confirm evolution. These two books—Michael Denton's Evolution: A Theory in Crisis
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and Michael J. Behe's Darwin's Black Box
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—describe this phenomenon.

The first surprising thing Denton points out is that there has always been a dissident faction of highly distinguished scientists, of impeccable credentials and no religious motivations, who have declined to concede that evolution has been proved. This is inconvenient for evolutionists who would like to dismiss their opponents as Bible-thumping hicks and claim that questioning evolution is tantamount to questioning the value or validity of science. He also points out biologists like Richard Owen, who were prepared to allow that evolution had taken place but thought that other causes were involved in bringing about the origin of species.

The first big problem with evolution is that the fossil record increasingly does not, honestly viewed, support it, a fact that famous Prof. Steven Jay Gould of Harvard has described as "the trade secret of paleontology." Evolutionary theory claims that there once existed a whole series of successive forms of the various organisms alive today. These supposedly changed by infinitesimal amounts with each generation as they evolved into the present varieties, so the fossil record should show these gradual changes. But it doesn�t. Instead, it shows the sudden emergence of new species out of nowhere, fully complete with all their characteristics and not changing over time. It is almost entirely devoid of forms that can plausibly be identified as intermediates between older and newer ones. This is popularly known as the "missing link" problem, and it is massively systematic across different species and time periods. Worse, this problem is getting worse, not better, as more fossils are discovered, as the new fossils just resemble those already found and don�t fill in the gaps. In Darwin's day, it was easy to claim that the fossils were there but had not been discovered. Problem is, we now have hundreds of thousands of well-catalogued fossils, from all continents and geologic eras, and we still haven't found these intermediate forms. As Denton puts it,

"Despite the tremendous increase in geological activity in every corner of the globe and despite the discovery of many strange and hitherto unknown forms, the infinitude of connecting links has still not been discovered and the fossil record is about as discontinuous as it was when Darwin was writing the Origin."

The quantity, quality, and range of the recovered fossils is impeccable. But the more we dig, the more we keep finding the same forms over and over again, never the intermediates. Various ad hoc explanations for the gaps in the fossil record, like a temporary dearth in the environment of the chemicals needed for organisms to produce the hard body parts that fossilize well, do not stand scrutiny.

The usual response of evolutionists at this stage in the argument is a theory they call punctuated equilibrium, Gould's great contribution, which basically says that evolution occurs not gradually but in spurts. This would explain why there are gaps and not continuity in the fossil record. The problem with this theory, which is too complex to go into in detail here, is that while it explains away the non-existence of small gradations, it still requires there to be large ones (the individual spurts) and even these aren't in the record. Furthermore, for punctuated equilibrium to have occurred, a very precise set of conditions have to have obtained throughout the entire past period represented in the fossils, and this is unlikely.

Another development that has undermined evolution is the spread of computers into evolutionary biology. Basically, computers have shown that the neat evolutionary trees that get drawn up are in fact based on imaginary relations of similarity and difference that owe more to the human mind's tendency to perceive patterns than to the raw biological data. Computers have shown that when the characteristics of different living things are encoded in numerical form and the computer is asked to sort them into The order of nucleotides in a DNA or RNA molecule, or the order of amino acids in a protein molecule.sequences based on their similarities and differences, the computer can find any number of ways of doing so that have just as much support in the data as those drawn up by humans to fit an evolutionary tree. The data say "no evolution" just as loudly as they say "evolution"; it's just the pattern-craving human mind that gives prominence to the former way of viewing it. This is known as phenetic analysis. When the computer is constrained to push the data into an evolutionary tree, (this is called cladistic analysis) it tends to generate trees with all species as individual twigs and no species forming the crucial lower branches of the tree that evolution demands. As a result of this, many biologists have in practice stopped using the idea of ancestors and descendants when classifying new species. When the British Museum of Natural History did this a few years ago, they started a small war in scientific circles.

Evolution also suffers from the problem that many putative The order of nucleotides in a DNA or RNA molecule, or the order of amino acids in a protein molecule.sequences which look logical based on the progression of one set of anatomical characteristics suddenly look illogical when attention is switched to another set. For example, the lungfish superficially seems to make a good intermediate between fish and amphibian, until one examines the rest of its internal organs, which are not intermediate in character, nor are the ways in which its eggs develop. And if different species have common ancestors, it would be reasonable to expect that similar structures in the different species be specified in similar ways in their Deoxyribonucleic acid: the chemical inside the nucleus of a cell that carries the genetic instructions for making living organisms.DNA and develop in similar ways in their embryos; this is frequently not so. So evolutionary relationships depend upon an arbitrary choice of which characteristics of the organisms in question are considered most important, and different relationships can be "proved" at will.

Furthermore, Denton argues, the classic cases printed in biology textbooks to show the evolution of present-day organisms from their supposed ancestors are in fact highly conjectural if not downright false. We read the same examples coming up again and again in textbook after textbook because there are only a few species for which an even remotely plausible fossil genealogy can be propounded out of the 100,000 fossil species known to paleontology. He takes the horse as an example and points out that several of the standard claims about the pattern of equine evolution, such as the gradual reduction of the side toes, are extremely questionable and that the morphological distance covered from the earliest horse to the present horses is so small, compared with the vast changes that evolution must encompass, that it is questionable whether the series, even if true, proves much at all. And even the emergence of one species from another has never been directly observed by science.

Another problem with evolution that continues to worsen is that it remains incapable of explaining how anything could evolve that doesn't make biological sense when incomplete. The wings of birds are the classic example: what good is half of one? Other examples abound. This is a problem that evolutionary theory has promised a solution to for a long time and not delivered. Worse even than visible examples like wings are the complex chemical reactions and molecular structures that living things are made of. This is the principal point of Darwin's Black Box (these micro-processes are the black boxes), a book too technical to be satisfying reading for the layman but that convincingly argues that many of these micro-processes make sense either complete or not at all. There are no plausible accounts of how they could have evolved from other simpler processes because as one hypothesizes back down the hypothetical chain of complexity, one comes to a point at which the process simply won�t work if it gets any simpler. At this stage, the process couldn�t have evolved from anything else because there is nothing simpler for it to have evolved from. And at this stage, the process is still far too complex to have been thrown together by any known non-living chemical event. At one time, knowledge of the complex processes of living things was limited enough, and hopes for the discovery of intermediate processes that they could have evolved from wide-open enough, that evolutionists could ignore this problem. But as biological research has progressed, this gap too has been filled with more and more inconvenient facts. As in the case of the other problems challenging evolution, the key thing here is the intellectual direction: research is consistently making the problem worse, not better.

Another similar example: one of the things that has happened since evolution was first proposed is that biology has achieved a precise cataloging of the thousands of different Organic compounds made of amino acids arranged in a linear chain, joined together by peptide bonds between the carboxyl and amino groups of the adjacent amino acid residues.proteins that make up organisms. It was hoped that a thorough cross-species comparison of these would reveal the kinds of relationships of graded similarity that evolution implies. But it hasn�t. Instead, it has given the same picture of distinct species that examination of gross anatomy does. It's the same old story of a tree with all twigs and no branches! Worse, analysis of the closeness and distance between different species reveals bizarre results. For example, according to the The order of nucleotides in a DNA or RNA molecule, or the order of amino acids in a protein molecule.sequence difference matrix of vertebrate hemoglobins in the standard Dayhoff Atlas of An organic compound made of amino acids arranged in a linear chain, joined together by peptide bonds between the carboxyl and amino groups of the adjacent amino acid residues.Protein Structure and Function, man is as close to a lamprey as are fish! This problem repeats itself with other characteristics of organisms that have been brought within the scope of evolutionary comparison since Darwin's day.
 
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Another problem with evolution that has only gotten worse with increasing biological knowledge is the question of how life initially emerged from dead matter. As recently as the early 50's, it was still possible to hypothesize that discoveries would reveal the existence of entities intermediate between single-celled organisms and complex lifeless molecules. The existence of these intermediates (certain kinds of viruses were candidates for the role) would imply the possibility of an evolutionary transition from dead chemicals to intermediates to life. Unfortunately, the discovery of Deoxyribonucleic acid: the chemical inside the nucleus of a cell that carries the genetic instructions for making living organisms.DNA in 1953 killed this hypothesis in its simplest form, and subsequent discoveries have only made the matter worse. Vast numbers of microorganisms are now known, as are vast numbers of complex molecules, but nothing in between. Furthermore, even the simplest possible cell imaginable within the limits of biology, let alone the simplest actually existing cell, is far too complex to have been thrown together by any known non-living chemical event. So even if evolution has an explanation of how species evolve from one to another, it has no way to "get the ball rolling" by producing the first species from something that is not a species.



There are even distinguished philosophers of science, like Sir Karl Popper, a man of impeccable credentials and no religious ax to grind, who have openly questioned whether evolution is a science at all, in principle and not just in practice, because its assertions are not potentially falsifiable. A true science, like physics, makes claims that can be tested and thus potentially falsified; this vulnerability is what makes it worthy of belief when despite this, the falsification does not happen. But evolution does not make claims of this kind. Furthermore, it is one of the touchstones of science that it is based on repeatable experiments. The data used to support evolution are neither experiments nor repeatable, nor can they be, since the origin of species on earth was a unique event. This doesn�t necessarily make evolution nonsense, but it strongly suggests it doesn�t have the right to demand the kind of acquiescence that physics demands on the strength of its being straightforwardly a science. What exactly evolution is, if Popper is right and it is not quite a science in the conventional sense, is an open question. It is probably not without significance that what is now called biology used to be called natural history, an older and perhaps more appropriate concept.


Anyone who doubts that the bulk of the scientific community could be wrong about a fundamental question like this should consider the case of Newtonian physics, which was thought to be unshakable until Einstein disproved it. (Lest anybody quibble about the approximate validity of Newtonian physics at non-relativistic speeds, may I point out that Newtonian physics was formerly thought to be valid at all speeds, throughout the universe, and this Einstein refuted.) Evolution is not a fraud being perpetrated upon the public, but it is a theory that has far too many problems to be treated as something that everyone is obliged to believe in on pain of being classified as a fool, as if it were the claim that the earth goes around the sun. Its credibility will continue to wane (or wax) with additional developments in biology over the coming years, but the absolute prerequisite for solving this intellectual puzzle is for free debate on the issue to be permitted again. I am quite happy to change my position if new facts come out, and I urge my readers that this is the only rational view.


Robert Locke resides in New York City. You can e-mail him at lockerobert@hotmail.com.
 
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That's just another story they told you. Humans evolved from other primates. Your fellow YE creationist, Dr. Kurt Wise, admits that the fossil record for human evolution is "surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory." He's an honest creationist; he doesn't accept evolution,but he isn't willing to lie about it, like so many other YE creationists.

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT be said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0e4d/0ab89242a5ddc40a8a74fc53361861fbcabf.pdf

"Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms"


Hahaahahah Send Kurt my way.. I will straighten him out just like I did with Todd Wood..
I will be waiting!
 
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No, I don't think so. Most of the guys who write for those sites know more than you have shown us.

Most of them, for example actually know what evolution is.

"No, I don't think so. Most of the guys who write for those sites know more than you have shown us."

Most of them, for example actually know what evolution is."

LOL Comic Genius are you,,, you have jokes!! But not to worry..

I KNOW what it "is" alright… Better than anyone you know...

It is a fairytale to make Atheists feel better about themselves...

It is a Science Fiction Novel about "long ago and far away" where the SAME microbial ancestor (protista / amoeba / bacteria / SCO / protozoa / fill in the blanks) that SOMEHOW emerged from dead matter / inorganic chemicals, was SOMEHOW able to SLOWLY, (over "3 billion years") evolve into ALL flora and fauna, extinct and extant, on planet Earth.. It SUPPOSEDLY was able to perform these incredible miracles by way of Random Genetic Mutations and Natural Selection, but those explanations have been debunked and / or dismissed as meaningless tautologies,, We are also given irrelevant and MEANINGLESS catch phrases like "change over time" "changes in allele frequencies" "Change in the heritable characteristics of Biological populations over successive generations" "Descent with modification" or "Genetic drift" which FAIL to account for the ability of an organless microbe to S L O W L Y evolve into a microbiologist (Or ANY Mammal) with 10 interlocked interdependent VITAL organs and their support systems.. IC IS ALIVE AND WELL! They ALSO FAIL to account for all of the symbiotic relationships found throughout Nature without all sorts of Special Pleading,, We are given ad hoc rescue hypothesis (band aids) that were forced to be cooked up to explain why the data on the ground DONT support the fairytale.. Like "Living Fossils" "Punctuated Equilibrium", "Hopeful Monsters" / Saltation, "Convergent Evolution", and all kinds of other nonsense that insult any thinking persons intelligence... We are given a drawing of a "Tree of Life" which is FALSE as life is more ACCURATELY described as an ORCHARD. We are given "homologous structures" as evidence for Common ancestry when it is ALSO evidence for common designer THEREFORE due to the law of non-contradiction CANNOT be considered evidence for CA, ESPECIALLY when taken into consideration with all of the OTHER evidence... Known FRAUDS are allowed to remain in the textbooks for years or even DECADES after they were widely exposed. We are given a pigs TOOTH as evidence for Ape / Man transitional.. Yes a PIGS TOOTH!!! We are given a "Geologic column" which DOESNT EXIST and Radiometric dating as a way to "date" when "ancient" creatures supposedly lived, but it is all based on built on assumptions that CANNOT be verified and Dating methodology that CANNOT be calibrated WITHOUT further assumptions..

FREE WILL AND SCIENTIFIC LAWS
By Jim Thinnsen

I am sure that God knew the consequences of giving his created beings FREE WILL..

But, without free will, there is no choice, even humans know that Forced Love is Meaningless Love.. God desires a relationship with us in Spirit and in Truth based on us choosing to do so..

Atheists have obviously decided to say no.. That is why they have such a powerful emotional attachment to the fairytale of "Evolution".. Deep down inside, they (And everyone else) know that God Exists.. They know that all of us here are not due to an accidental fortuitous coincidence of chemicals that miraculously came together when nothing / small dot suddenly expanded for no reason..


Atheists pretend that by trying to convince themselves that, in spite of the pure preposterousness of it all, that they can somehow still believe it because several "Scientists" and many other like minded people who have entered into a neurotic agreement and happen to control the POPULAR message due to intellectual Fascism, can allow them to lead their life without having to concern themselves with bothersome inconveniences like accountability, moral mandates of Christ, behaviour toward yourself and others, and other unwanted restrictions on one's life..

This whole fairytale of Metaphysical Naturalism (Big Bang / Abiogenesis / UCA ) has nothing to do with Science.. And never did.. REAL Scientific Rigor doesnt require "Mulligans" to help their hypotheses along.. Ignoring Scientific Laws and principles like these ONLY for Philosophical Reasons is NOT SCIENTIFIC..

Law of Cause and Effect, You have to violate this AT LEAST ONCE!

Law of Biogenesis, You have to violate this AT LEAST ONCE!

LAW of "No Free Lunch" FLOT You have to violate this AT LEAST ONCE

Law of Entropy/ SLOT. Must be CONTINUALLY VIOLATED

Information Science.. Sender / Receiver of Info ALWAYS requires a Mental Source! VIOLATED


This is not about science and truth.. And it never has been.. It is about the IMPLICATIONS of it..

Richard Dawkins summed it up perfectly..

"Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled Atheist"

As did the Bible itself 2000 years ago..

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 2 Timothy


"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 2 Peter
 
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