Why do you believe in the Christian god?

[ebia]

Why YOU believe in the Christian God.

Because I cannot not.

Give any answers you believe will be helpful to me.

Part of the reason I asked is because I'm not sure how that would be helpful to you. The reason I believe isn't a reason for anyone else to believe.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Most of your testimonies involve you speaking to God. So, you heard him speak? Was there anyone else around that heard his voice, too, or was he just speaking to you? How did you know it was God? I ask because in all my years as a Christian, I never once have had God speak to me directly. Why would he speak to you, and not to me? I accepted Jesus as my savior, became active in my church, ministered frequently (and converted many to the Christian cause), prayed often, and read scripture on a regular basis, yet God never spoke to me.

No one else was around at the time, and when God speaks he does not do so in an audiable way, it is through the mind. How do I know it was God: who else would it be, he bought a person to salvation.

Why does he not talk to you? Maybe you have never asked him to. Maybe there was never a need for it. Every body in the church has a different function. But it is a gift you can seek.

 

[andreha]

Attempting to respond to you all - sorry if I miss anyone!



Why YOU believe in the Christian God. Give any answers you believe will be helpful to me.



I'm confused by this. Can you elaborate? Did creatures literally come and beat you with their fists and claws? Did you have nightmares? Your response doesn't give me many specifics!



Most of your testimonies involve you speaking to God. So, you heard him speak? Was there anyone else around that heard his voice, too, or was he just speaking to you? How did you know it was God? I ask because in all my years as a Christian, I never once have had God speak to me directly. Why would he speak to you, and not to me? I accepted Jesus as my savior, became active in my church, ministered frequently (and converted many to the Christian cause), prayed often, and read scripture on a regular basis, yet God never spoke to me.



Great testimony, but it leaves me with many of the same questions. Are you sure it was God speaking to you? Did anyone else hear him? How do I know that you weren't high when you heard him? That you weren't delusional? That you aren't insane? That's kinda the problem with personal accounts. While many of them sound incredible, when you apply the principles of logic to them they simply do not stand up to investigation.



Circular logic, again. While this may make perfect sense to you, it will not fly with a rational person... and this is why.

Premise: God = Christ = The Holy Ghost. The three are one being.
Premise: Immanuel, God With Us, and 'Him' refer to God.

Thus, part of your argument may be read:

When I look at Christ I know I am seeing Christ... Christ is real, is Christ, Christ. I believe in Christ because I believe that Christ is Christ.

It lacks any rational basis and is, essentially, meaningless.

Now, to respond to the middle of your argument:

Have you studied every other god to the extent that you've studied the Christian one? If not, you can't support your argument because you are ignorant of other religions and gods, and once again it is rendered meaningless.



Elaborate, please? What is your 'personal relationship' like with God?



This one's gonna take a while. How do we know that Jesus kept all 10 commandments for all his life?

Quick Edit: Also, the 10 commandments should not be looked at as the end-all, be-all of moral codes. How well you follow them does not determine how 'good' or 'bad' you are as a person.



How do we know heaven is real? Why do we need to be 'redeemed'?



I'll read it after the book that was recommended to me earlier in the thread, possibly.



I'm not going to address every prophecy because I don't have the time. I'll respond to the most significant one, though.

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah / Matt:

Premise: Matthew had access to the book of Isaiah when he wrote his account of Jesus life. In Isaiah, it's mentioned that the messiah will be born of a virgin.

Premise: Matthew believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

Conclusion: Thus, Matthew would attribute a Virgin Birth to Jesus whether or not he knew it was true. To Matthew, Jesus was the messiah, so of COURSE he was born of a virgin.

Hopefully my issues with that prophecy made sense.

Pretty irrelevant, but thanks for the info.



You're talking about the BIBLE, not the NEW TESTAMENT alone, right? I mentioned an inconsistency earlier in the thread. Take a look. It definitely does contain inconsistencies, but you are more than capable of rationalizing them away.



Every claim written in books is true? According to that logic, EVERY religious book is true, because they all claim to be true. This isn't evidence.



Tyre was rebuilt, and still stands today. The end of time has not come yet, so we can't say that Nineveh and Babylon will not be rebuilt. :] Also, can we really be impressed by people saying "In this time of war and strife, this city will be destroyed." I predicted that Saddam Hussein would be caught and killed the day the Iraq war began, but you won't worship me (darn!), yet my prediction is very similar to the ones made in the Bible.



Man didn't know the above for 350 years. I'm pretty sure any halfwit noticed 'Hey, something is making my feet stay on the ground, it's gravity." and "Hey, the horizon is curved, maybe the Earth is a circle." Speaking of, my version of the Bible doesn't mention that the Earth is a sphere, it says the Earth is a circle, and even people who believe in a flat earth believe the earth is a circle.

The Bible is also wrong about several things that can be proved. For example, it is written in the BIBLE that Noah's ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall. Two of each animal that exists today could not fit on this ark.



In order to use these documents as evidence that the Bible is true, you must accept that the documents are true... but do you really think the Epic of Gilgamesh is true? Really? REALLY really?

I've heard most of your arguments before, salida, and it just isn't convincing unless you already believe that the Bible is true.

Wall of text crits you for 3000 damage.

Hi MinorityofOne. This multiquote thing seems to dislike my browser.

That thing with the demons confused the heck out of me, because as a child I didn't even know such things existed. They were not visible, but the effects were impossible to miss. They paralyzed me in my bed, and I could feel a terrifying presence, a burning smell was also noticable. Much later, I found out that this is typical demon manifestation. At first, I thought they were nightmares, but they did wake me up every night, with a terrible jolt. Afterwards, I'd usually be covered in sweat, and have some difficulty regaining control over my breathing. After I called for the Lord to Help me, this stopped abruptly. It's been about 32 years ago, still no attacks.

And that one about the car accident that would have wiped me out. By definition, only God would step in to save one's life. No evil force would ever do that. The voice was not audible as with normal human speech, but it came through my mind with crystal clarity. I was alone in the car at that time - on the way to work. What was also quite supernatural was that control of my body was taken over, in order to save my life. The thing you say about personal accounts makes sense, because it is indeed the kind of thing that someone else would find hard to believe. I could tell you about my stable career as a Software developer, or the fact that I'm working for a large stock exchange, or the fact that I have no criminal records. Even that I have no record of mental instability, being delusional or whatever. The thing is that none of this would really offer the kind of proof that would convince one beyond any shadow of a doubt.

If I never experienced stuff like this myself, it would indeed have been a bit of a challenge to really believe it.

 

[aiki]

Originally Posted by aiki

I believe in Jehovah-God because He has shown Himself real to me. I have had a constant, daily experience of Him now for over thirty years. There are philosophical, scientific, and historical reasons for my faith in God, too, but the main reason I believe in Him is because I have a personal relationship with Him.
​

Elaborate, please? What is your 'personal relationship' like with God?

Well, its quite wonderful, actually.

That's not really the kind of answer you're looking for, is it?

I expect what you're asking for is concrete evidence for my belief that I'm actually in a genuine relationship with God. You want to know that my "relationship with God" isn't just all in my head. Am I right? Well, assuming that I am correct in my assumption about what you want, let me respond with these reasons for my belief that I am in a relationship with God:

1. The witness of God within.

Romans 8:16 (NKJV)
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

This is my experience. There is an inner certainty, born out of the presence of the Spirit of God within me, that God is my Heavenly Father. This witness of the Holy Spirit pierces any doubt, both transcending and strengthening the intellectual bases for my faith in God. Because this is so, when doubts do arise, they only serve to drive me toward God, not away.

2. Personal transformation.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (NKJV)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

I have a new nature, given to me by a holy God, that makes ease with sin impossible. My conscience is strongly convicted about things at which those who aren't regenerated by God do not blink an eye. This new nature causes me to hunger for the Word of God and to desire fellowship with those who are likewise changed by God. I find myself constantly at war with those fleshly tendencies I would otherwise readily indulge. In addition to all these things, I find my deepest fulfillment and the highest experience of my life in worshiping and fellowshiping with God. I feel a profound, tremendously satisfying joy in praising and communicating with my Heavenly Father.

3. Answered prayer.

John 15:7 (KJV)
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

I have had literally thousands of answered prayers. Some have been quite remarkable. I have witnessed God's specific and often immediate provision of money, clothing, food, housing, vehicles, direction, understanding, power to obey His commands, and conviction of hearts. I have seen Him do this not only in my life, but in the lives of the Christians around me.

Hope this is helpful.

Peace to you.

 

[Chesterton]

Circular logic, again. While this may make perfect sense to you, it will not fly with a rational person... and this is why.

I didn't even realize you were asking for logic. I'm a rational person, and a rational person, unlike you, recognizes the uses and limits of logic and reason the way a carpenter recognizes the uses and limits of a hammer. If you want to "prove" Jesus is God, you might as well try and paint a house with a hammer; you're just going to waste a lot of time. Which is what it seems you're here doing in this forum; just killing some time. Time is short, don't kill too much of it.

Premise: God = Christ = The Holy Ghost. The three are one being.
Premise: Immanuel, God With Us, and 'Him' refer to God.

Thus, part of your argument may be read:

When I look at Christ I know I am seeing Christ... Christ is real, is Christ, Christ. I believe in Christ because I believe that Christ is Christ.

It lacks any rational basis and is, essentially, meaningless.

You need to make up your mind, or at least don't move the goalpost. You asked "Why do you believe in the Christian God?" Now you're complaining that you didn't receive a "rational basis" for my belief. I didn't intend to offer one. My belief, like everyone else's here, is not rational, and is not irrational. It's a-rational. And that's unrelated to whether it's meaningful or meaningless. I simply see that Christ is God.

Now, to respond to the middle of your argument:

Have you studied every other god to the extent that you've studied the Christian one? If not, you can't support your argument because you are ignorant of other religions and gods, and once again it is rendered meaningless.

I've done some "studying", yes. Enough to satisfy myself, but no amount would satisfy you.

 

[visionary]

Hey folks. I'm new here, and have mainly joined this forum because I've been undergoing a pretty major crisis of faith, and no one in my personal life, including my church, has been able to help me with it. I hope that by asking questions of you all that my understanding will increase, at the very least.

My question is, why do you believe in the Christian God?

Because I challenged God of the Bible... to please stand up... I wanted a one on one meeting with Him.. and He showed me how to meet the Holy One. It was through His six months of personal study with His Word, His still small voice, and the concordance and a scribbler and lots of prayer talk.. that I was being prepared for what all the authors of scripture experienced... meeting Him. .. He offers that same opportunity.. Rev 3:20.. put your finger on it and ask for an audience with the King of the Universe.

 

[MinorityofOne]

That's just it.. as a true christian you know we are always out side of God's will, but there is still grace and forgiveness to be found through Jesus.. Meaning we don't have to live a certain way to obtain righteousness..

Are you saying we CAN'T do God's will? I think I may be misunderstanding you, because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

Using this chain of logic you have acknowledged the "Christian God" as the God over Heaven and hell... If this is the case, then wouldn't "we" need to adhere to the christian God's rules? If your friends choose to worship "other gods" then ultimately aren't they answerable to them? Do you think any of their religious beliefs will have mercy for the "unbelievers" of their religions?

Using this chain of logic you have acknowledged the "Christian God" as the God over Heaven and hell.

1st point: I've identified the Christian God as the god presented in the Bible. I acknowledge that, if he exists as described in the Bible, he is indeed the ruler of heaven and hell. If he does not exist, it's a moot point, since there is no heaven or hell as defined in scripture.

If your friends choose to worship "other gods" then ultimately aren't they answerable to them? Do you think any of their religious beliefs will have mercy for the "unbelievers" of their religions?

2nd point: Actually, yes. Buddhists believe that Christians are capable of achieving Nirvana (a Buddhist's version of heaven), which is their ultimate goal in life. Hindus believe the same thing - that a Christian can enter their version of heaven.

If your really looking rightly divide these passages I will help you here... There is a line there if you wish to acknowledge it.

Number one, what makes my literal interpretation of the Bible less accurate than your more liberal interpretation? Since you did not accept my literal interpretation, do you acknowledge that the Bible is not literal and much is lost in translation?

...Because, The Bible is the only work inspired by God.. The Koran, an angel, Mahabharata, the works of Karma, Gilgamesh, the works of Sumerian Legend, and on and on... The Bible claims to be the Work of the Holy Spirit, and because it is Heaven I want to get into, and not a cow in the next life, it is the reason I choose the bible.

So you argument is, simply, "I like what the Bible says about the afterlife, so I believe it's true." You understand that I can't believe in something just because you like it, surely.

If there is a God, and the bible is still the inspired word of God then yes.. Not because of what awaits for me in the next life, but because I honestly Love God in this one. Remember that is what makes Heaven, Heaven.. Not the stuff that one may think is there. You get to be with the one you love with all of your being!

You just said you follow God because you want to get into heaven, then you immediately said that you don't worship God to get into heaven, but because you genuinely love him. There's a slight contradiction here, but I believe you meant that BOTH are valid reasons to follow God, which is absolutely fine.

Now Quid pro Quo.. If If God lived in a fiery pit "Heaven" and Hell was paradise would you still want to go to Heaven?

When I believed 100% that heaven and hell existed, I didn't believe they were literally a cloudy paradise and a fiery furnace. Do you? And based on what God/The Bible has helped me with in life (nothing), I would currently rather go to a paradise without him than a fiery pit with him.
​

 

[MinorityofOne]

Because I cannot not.

Other people can. Why can't you?

Part of the reason I asked is because I'm not sure how that would be helpful to you. The reason I believe isn't a reason for anyone else to believe.

This may be true, but... Why?

 

[MinorityofOne]

No one else was around at the time, and when God speaks he does not do so in an audiable way, it is through the mind. How do I know it was God: who else would it be, he bought a person to salvation.

It could be just a voice in your head. You could be delusional, mentally unstable, or drunk. I get bizarre, random thoughts relatively often (even in the rare moments that I'm not delusional, mentally unstable, or drunk! ), but suggesting that most of them are from God would be ludicrous.

Why does he not talk to you? Maybe you have never asked him to. Maybe there was never a need for it. Every body in the church has a different function. But it is a gift you can seek.

Every time I got on my knees I asked him to speak with me. I'd say there's a significant need for it now - I'm on the verge of abandoning my Christian beliefs entirely. I may never come back to Christ if he does not reveal himself to me in some way, so please tell me: How did you seek this 'gift' of hearing God speak?

 

[ebia]

Other people can. Why can't you?

I don't know.

 

[MinorityofOne]

Hi MinorityofOne. This multiquote thing seems to dislike my browser.

That thing with the demons confused the heck out of me, because as a child I didn't even know such things existed. They were not visible, but the effects were impossible to miss. They paralyzed me in my bed, and I could feel a terrifying presence, a burning smell was also noticable. Much later, I found out that this is typical demon manifestation. At first, I thought they were nightmares, but they did wake me up every night, with a terrible jolt. Afterwards, I'd usually be covered in sweat, and have some difficulty regaining control over my breathing. After I called for the Lord to Help me, this stopped abruptly. It's been about 32 years ago, still no attacks.

And that one about the car accident that would have wiped me out. By definition, only God would step in to save one's life. No evil force would ever do that. The voice was not audible as with normal human speech, but it came through my mind with crystal clarity. I was alone in the car at that time - on the way to work. What was also quite supernatural was that control of my body was taken over, in order to save my life. The thing you say about personal accounts makes sense, because it is indeed the kind of thing that someone else would find hard to believe. I could tell you about my stable career as a Software developer, or the fact that I'm working for a large stock exchange, or the fact that I have no criminal records. Even that I have no record of mental instability, being delusional or whatever. The thing is that none of this would really offer the kind of proof that would convince one beyond any shadow of a doubt.

If I never experienced stuff like this myself, it would indeed have been a bit of a challenge to really believe it.

No, I don't expect anyone to prove God beyond a shadow of a doubt any more than I expect to disprove him to anyone. It's impossible! Your testimony actually gives me a little hope, andreha. Honestly, I think your post has been the most helpful to me thus far. I mean, I suppose the possibility always exists that you're lying, but you really seem like you believe that what you're saying is absolutely true, and it makes some logical sense.

 

[MinorityofOne]

I didn't even realize you were asking for logic. I'm a rational person, and a rational person, unlike you, recognizes the uses and limits of logic and reason the way a carpenter recognizes the uses and limits of a hammer. If you want to "prove" Jesus is God, you might as well try and paint a house with a hammer; you're just going to waste a lot of time. Which is what it seems you're here doing in this forum; just killing some time. Time is short, don't kill too much of it.

Number one, a rational person is a 'logical person'. If you believe that logic is not applicable to god, you are not a rational person.

Now, on to the body of your argument. You're absolutely right about one thing - you cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus is or is not God. Unfortunately, you are absolutely wrong about another - logic.

As defined by dictionary.com, Logic is:

- the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

- a particular method of reasoning or argumentation

- the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.

-reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions

- convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness

(emphasis mine)

Logic is the way that we humans are able to explore the truth. The truth of god can absolutely be explored through logic, and any limits imposed on logic are self-imposed.

You need to make up your mind, or at least don't move the goalpost. You asked "Why do you believe in the Christian God?" Now you're complaining that you didn't receive a "rational basis" for my belief. I didn't intend to offer one. My belief, like everyone else's here, is not rational, and is not irrational. It's a-rational. And that's unrelated to whether it's meaningful or meaningless. I simply see that Christ is God.

I didn't move the goalpost. I thought we were all adults who understood the principles of open debate and discussion (reliant on logic). I can't just accept something as true because Chesterton says it. If I told you unicorns were real, would you believe me? If not, you are a sane person who requires evidence before he accepts something as the truth. If you do believe that unicorns are real just because I say so, I suggest therapy.

The reasons you've given me for your belief are irrational, not 'a-rational'. You have offered me no rational reason that you believe, and rational reasons DO exist for believing in God. I've heard a couple in this thread, just not from you.

I've done some "studying", yes. Enough to satisfy myself, but no amount would satisfy you.

Absolutely true, because it is impossible to do enough studying to support your flawed argument. I'm starting to sense some anger - if reading this thread is only going to make you upset, I suggest you stop now. I have no desire to influence your mood in a negative way. Go in peace.

 

[MinorityofOne]

Well, its quite wonderful, actually.

That's not really the kind of answer you're looking for, is it?

I expect what you're asking for is concrete evidence for my belief that I'm actually in a genuine relationship with God. You want to know that my "relationship with God" isn't just all in my head. Am I right? Well, assuming that I am correct in my assumption about what you want, let me respond with these reasons for my belief that I am in a relationship with God:

(stuff)

Peace to you.

Your beliefs are... rational? Horror of horrors!

You were right about what I wanted, in a way. I just wanted to know what the relationship entailed, since neither of us can prove/disprove that the relationship is real. Thanks for the info, it was incredibly helpful.

 

[MinorityofOne]

Because I challenged God of the Bible... to please stand up... I wanted a one on one meeting with Him.. and He showed me how to meet the Holy One. It was through His six months of personal study with His Word, His still small voice, and the concordance and a scribbler and lots of prayer talk.. that I was being prepared for what all the authors of scripture experienced... meeting Him. .. He offers that same opportunity.. Rev 3:20.. put your finger on it and ask for an audience with the King of the Universe.

Lol, your answer was a little bit funny while still containing some gems of insight. Thank you, sir. I'm starting to see a pattern here - most people believe in the Christian God because they've experienced his presence (supposedly, there's always a chance that you're all delusional ) on a personal level. Because I never really experienced him in a direct way, I'm here posting on these forums and questioning his existence.

 

[MinorityofOne]

Interestingly enough, I just found some rather remarkable 'proof' that God answers prayers. It's difficult to dismiss this story as coincidence, so I'm going to post it here. Feel free to comment on it if you will; I'm still researching its. Fun fact: I found this gem on an atheist website. (whywontgodhealamputees dot com)

[FONT=arial, Helvetica]

The miracle of Jeanna Giese

[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, Helvetica]There are so many examples of the power of prayer, but one in particular deserves special consideration because it is so well documented. In December of 2004 a girl named Jeanna Giese survived a bite from a rabid bat through prayer. Hundreds of newspapers (including the Raleigh News and Observer in my home town) ran stories about the miracle of her recovery with headlines such as "Rabies girl in miracle recovery." In Raleigh, the headline was "Web weaves global prayer circle - Petitions circle the world as girl beats rare case of rabies." [Source: by Sharon Roznik, Raleigh News and Observer, December 17, 2004] [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]The summary of the story goes like this. Jeanna was in a church service in Wisconsin when a brown bat fell into the aisle. She picked the bat up and carried it outside. No one gave it a second thought. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]According to the article, a global prayer circle helped Jeanna survive. Once she got sick, Jeanna's father called friends and asked them to pray for Jeanna. People around the world heard about her story through the press and by word of mouth. They prayed. They sent emails. They passed the word along. Millions of people heard about Jeanna's plight and they said prayers for her. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was [/FONT][FONT=arial, Helvetica]the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]This is amazing stuff. The dictionary defines a miracle as "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." [ref] So we must ask a fundamental question: Did an all-loving, all-powerful God hear the prayers from Jeanna's worldwide prayer circle and then reach down from heaven to help Jeanna? Did God actually interact with Jeanna's body, making the impossible happen and curing her case of rabies through a divine miracle? [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]Or did something else happen?[/FONT]

 

[Chesterton]

The truth of god can absolutely be explored through logic, and any limits imposed on logic are self-imposed.

Okay, if you're able to explore the truth of God through logic, I honestly wish you the best of luck and hope it works for you.

Absolutely true, because it is impossible to do enough studying to support your flawed argument. I'm starting to sense some anger - if reading this thread is only going to make you upset, I suggest you stop now. I have no desire to influence your mood in a negative way. Go in peace.

No, I wasn't upset. Sorry if I came off that way. But I meant what I said literally - one cannot do enough studying to prove the question you're asking. It's just not a question of discerning the truth or falsity of a logical argument, nor a matter of "if I learn enough facts, I can deduce the correct answer about God."

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I'm not going to deconstruct your miracle logically, because I have no desire to change YOUR beliefs. All I'll say is that what you've written has not really convinced me that the dream was definitely, 100% without a doubt from God.

That's ok... I guess, am not really trying to convince you. I don't believe there's a single thing any of us could say that would convince you, because the relationship you have with Him is between you and Him. I certainly don't expect anecdotal evidence from a stranger to convince you. It was, however, enough to convince me. I really believe that if you need to experience an encounter with Him to follow Him again, He'll make Himself known to you. What's up to you, though, is whether you accept what you're experiencing with simple, honest faith, or whether you tie yourself into intellectual knots trying to prick holes in it.

If not believing has now become a priori, you'll always be able to find reasons to continue with unbelief, even if personal experience and intellectual support is wholly persuasive.

That's a hasty generalization, a logical fallacy. A book's thickness/weight has no bearing on how true or reliable it is. The Indian holy books have over seven times more content than the Bible, but that alone does not make them more or less true/reliable than Christian scripture. Anyhow, I'll definitely be picking up the book you recommended by the end of the week.

And were we discussing a holy book, I'd agree with you. But we're discussing a scholarly book that's intellectually, historically and factually rigorous. 700 pages of documented, verified, unarguable proof is eminently more reliable than 700 pages of Indian holy book. I maintain that a tome of intellectual, documented, historical, geographical support for the Christian faith is persuasive. The Bible, for example, teaches us what we have faith in; it's a map, and a love letter from God to us. If we compare it to Romeo and Juliet, for a minute, Evidence That Demands a Verdict is the accompanying text-book with the foot-notes and analysis.

I'm not particularly well-versed in science or math, so I'm a bit lost by this comparison. Can you rephrase your explanation? I really do want to understand. :]

If you have reason to believe, you can choose to take that step without having it all figured out. Like joining the dots.

Yes. If I logically deduced that the god presented in the Bible is an evil and malicious being, I would not follow him. I DON'T currently think he's an evil being, this is just an example of why his character matters.

Do you believe He exists at all?

I have a question for you, if that's ok If you're looking to re-establish your faith, am curious as to why you're visiting sites with the sole purpose of discrediting/mocking Christianity. They're handy for picking up snippets of the anti-Christian apologia and snarky one-liners denigrating anyone of faith, but I don't see how it would benefit you in any way?

 

[MinorityofOne]

No, I wasn't upset. Sorry if I came off that way. But I meant what I said literally - one cannot do enough studying to prove the question you're asking. It's just not a question of discerning the truth or falsity of a logical argument, nor a matter of "if I learn enough facts, I can deduce the correct answer about God."

I think you missed the point. I'm going to repost our exchange here, in part, to help you better understand your error. Your posts are in bold, mine are in plain text.

---

My question is, why do you believe in the Christian God?

Because the other gods are not Christian.

So you believe in the Christian god because he's the Christian god, and no other god is the Christian god? That's called circular logic, and is a fallacy. Your argument carries no weight.

Close, almost. I believe in the Christian God because of Christ. When I look at Christ I know I am seeing God. With any other gods there's simply nothing to look at, just ideas to think about. In Christ we have all the best of any other ideas of divinity, combined with the fact that He is real; was Immanuel, God With Us. I believe in the Christian God because I perceive that Christ is Him.

Circular logic, again. While this may make perfect sense to you, it will not fly with a rational person... and this is why.

Premise: God = Christ = The Holy Ghost. The three are one being.
Premise: Immanuel, God With Us, and 'Him' refer to God.

Thus, part of your argument may be read:

When I look at Christ I know I am seeing Christ... Christ is real, is Christ, Christ. I believe in Christ because I believe that Christ is Christ.

It lacks any rational basis and is, essentially, meaningless.

Now, to respond to the middle of your argument:

...With any other gods there's simply nothing to look at, just ideas to think about. In Christ we have all the best of any other ideas of divinity...

Have you studied every other god to the extent that you've studied the Christian one? If not, you can't support your argument because you are ignorant of other religions and gods, and once again it is rendered meaningless.

---

I'm going to expand on this. You do not have to study every religion on Earth to determine whether the Christian god is real or not - that was not my point. My point was, you claimed that in ANY other gods there's 'nothing to look at, just ideas to think about'. My point was, you have not studied every god, and you cannot possibly know that there's 'nothing to look at'. Furthermore, you say that Christ is the 'best' idea out of all the other gods, but again, you have not studied even 1/100th of all the religions in the world. If you still don't understand your error, I'm expressing myself poorly, you do not understand logic, or both.

Now if you wanted to make logical sense, you could say something like this:

"Christ makes more sense to be than any other gods that I've studied because of X, Y, and Z." (where X, Y, and Z logically support your statement)

one cannot do enough studying to prove the question you're asking. It's just not a question of discerning the truth or falsity of a logical argument, nor a matter of "if I learn enough facts, I can deduce the correct answer about God."

Wrong. An argument is either logical ('true', as you say it) or illogical ('false', as you say it) - logical arguments can be used to support a statement (such as 'God exists'), while illogical arguments CANNOT be used as evidence because they are, by their very nature, preposterous.

The second part of your statement is also incorrect. No one can determine the 'correct' answer about God with 100% certainty, just like Democrats and Republicans can't determine the 'correct' answer to fix our economy right now in America. What you CAN do is find STRONG EVIDENCE both supporting and denying the existence of God, and then you determine which side (in this case, 'athiesm' or 'Christianity') makes a more persuasive case.

 

[MinorityofOne]

I don't know.

Almost lost you in my endless flood of posts! Only a man who is wise can admit when he doesn't know something, so while this statement doesn't exactly help me, I respect you for making it.

 

[MinorityofOne]

That's ok... I guess, am not really trying to convince you. I don't believe there's a single thing any of us could say that would convince you, because the relationship you have with Him is between you and Him. I certainly don't expect anecdotal evidence from a stranger to convince you. It was, however, enough to convince me. I really believe that if you need to experience an encounter with Him to follow Him again, He'll make Himself known to you. What's up to you, though, is whether you accept what you're experiencing with simple, honest faith, or whether you tie yourself into intellectual knots trying to prick holes in it.

Good point! You're correct - if you'd read all my earlier posts (which I suspect is not true, which is fine, many of them were not addressed to you!) you'd see that I'm not looking for 'proof' he exists, just some evidence in support of him that makes logical sense. A few posters have presented some, thankfully, and I'm slightly more sure of God's presence now than I was when I started this thread. I suspect the book you recommended will present even better evidence than everyone who's currently posted in this thread.

GreenMunchkin]And were we discussing a holy book, I'd agree with you. But we're discussing a scholarly book that's intellectually, historically and factually rigorous. 700 pages of documented, verified, unarguable proof is eminently more reliable than 700 pages of Indian holy book. I maintain that a tome of intellectual, documented, historical, geographical support for the Christian faith is persuasive. The Bible, for example, teaches us what we have faith in; it's a map, and a love letter from God to us. If we compare it to Romeo and Juliet, for a minute, Evidence That Demands a Verdict is the accompanying text-book with the foot-notes and analysis.If you have reason to believe, you can choose to take that step without having it all figured out. Like joining the dots.Do you believe He exists at all?

I won't attack a book I haven't read, haha - I wasn't trying to discredit the entire book with my explanation, I was only attempting to discredit your argument that thick books are more likely to be true. Good analogy, though.

QUICK EDIT: Sorry, I didn't answer your question. I'm trying to decide whether he exists or not based on logical evidence at the moment. I really want to believe he exists, but I'd like to have sound, logical reasons for doing so. I've found a few good reasons in this thread, certainly, but my mind is not yet satisfied. It's getting there, though.

GreenMunchkin]"I have a question for you, if that's ok If you're looking to re-establish your faith, am curious as to why you're visiting sites with the sole purpose of discrediting/mocking Christianity. They're handy for picking up snippets of the anti-Christian apologia and snarky one-liners denigrating anyone of faith, but I don't see how it would benefit you in any way?

Please tell me where I attempted to discredit or mock Christianity, because my intention was not to do either of these things. I could have dropped a few wonderfully disrespectful one-liners (HAHA GOD IS AN IMAGINARY FRIEND!), but I didn't because they poison the well of philosophical discourse, and bring nothing positive to an argument. You're right - if my only reason for joining this board was just to mock the faithful, I'd be a rather pathetic person, wouldn't I? All I've done in this thread to combat the arguments everyone has presented is point out logical fallacies and ask questions. I'm fairly certain you know what a logical fallacy is, but just to make sure. I'm going to show you an example of one...

Logical Fallacy: "I'm good with children, so I'll definitely be a good kindergarten teacher."

Response: "What if you have an IQ of 60? What if you have no degree, or no experience? What if you have sinful sexual urges in regard to children? Just because someone is good with children does not make them a good kindergarten teacher."