Why do you believe in the Christian god?

[Chesterton]

First, here's the problem - this is not really a debate forum, nor an apologetics forum. It's a forum to ask a question and get answers. You asked a question, and I gave an answer. Then you refuted my answer as if you were refuting an argument, but I didn't offer it as argument. My answer was "I see that Christ is God", and you really can't argue such a statement.

My point was, you claimed that in ANY other gods there's 'nothing to look at, just ideas to think about'. My point was, you have not studied every god, and you cannot possibly know that there's 'nothing to look at'. Furthermore, you say that Christ is the 'best' idea out of all the other gods, but again, you have not studied even 1/100th of all the religions in the world. If you still don't understand your error, I'm expressing myself poorly, you do not understand logic, or both.

That's just silly to call that "error". If I say a certain beer is the best, it means it's the best beer I know of, it doesn't mean I've "studied" every beer produced everywhere on earth throughout history.

Now if you wanted to make logical sense,

Not a primary concern of mine.

you could say something like this:

"Christ makes more sense to be than any other gods that I've studied because of X, Y, and Z." (where X, Y, and Z logically support your statement)

I wouldn't say something like that because I don't agree with it.

 

[Chesterton]

Wrong. An argument is either logical ('true', as you say it) or illogical ('false', as you say it) - logical arguments can be used to support a statement (such as 'God exists'), while illogical arguments CANNOT be used as evidence because they are, by their very nature, preposterous.

The second part of your statement is also incorrect. No one can determine the 'correct' answer about God with 100% certainty, just like Democrats and Republicans can't determine the 'correct' answer to fix our economy right now in America. What you CAN do is find STRONG EVIDENCE both supporting and denying the existence of God, and then you determine which side (in this case, 'athiesm' or 'Christianity') makes a more persuasive case.

And I addressed that previously when I wished you good luck with your efforts.

 

[MinorityofOne]

First, here's the problem - this is not really a debate forum, nor an apologetics forum. It's a forum to ask a question and get answers. You asked a question, and I gave an answer. Then you refuted my answer as if you were refuting an argument, but I didn't offer it as argument. My answer was "I see that Christ is God", and you really can't argue such a statement.

I am asking questions in an attempt to find truth. If your answer is untrue, I can call you out on it (which is allowed in the forum rules) ... but I didn't just tell you 'that's wrong' and act spiteful. I gave you reasons WHY you were wrong and was relatively respectful of you.

Also, I can argue that statement. "What do you mean you see that Christ is God? Can you explain it for me? Why don't I see that Christ is God if it's so incredibly obvious to you - I've been a believer since I was a child, but I can't see it!"

I'm not asking you to answer those questions, by the way. Please don't.

That's just silly to call that "error". If I say a certain beer is the best, it means it's the best beer I know of, it doesn't mean I've "studied" every beer produced everywhere on earth throughout history.

Then say it's the best beer you know of, not that it's just the 'best'. Otherwise, you're being deceitful.

Bad answer -
You: 'Sam Adams is the best beer.'
Me: 'Why?'
You: 'Because.'

Good answer:
You: 'Sam Adams is the best beer I've ever tried.'
Me: 'Why?'
You: 'Because it has a wonderful flavor, uses three times the hops of other beers, is triple-distilled and finishes better than anything else I've tried.' (I know nothing about beer, don't accept this as an accurate description of Sam Adams. )

You do see that in the second conversation 'you' are much more persuasive and convincing.

I wouldn't say something like that because I don't agree with it.

Then I will stand by my statement that you do not understand logic.

All I can really do is thank you for your good wishes, because:
1) You don't agree with logical statements, and don't believe logic has a place in religious discussion (and possibly in any discussion, I don't know).
and
2) You believe I should not question your answers.

I won't question you further. Feel free to post here, because I'll still read your posts - I just won't respond to them, because I feel like I'm 'wasting my time', as you put it, by doing so.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Good point! You're correct - if you'd read all my earlier posts (which I suspect is not true, which is fine, many of them were not addressed to you!) you'd see that I'm not looking for 'proof' he exists, just some evidence in support of him that makes logical sense. A few posters have presented some, thankfully, and I'm slightly more sure of God's presence now than I was when I started this thread. I suspect the book you recommended will present even better evidence than everyone who's currently posted in this thread.

Am so glad people are giving you answers you're finding helpful. That's such a cool thing to read

I want to quickly discuss the "logistics" of being sure of God's presence, but I'll get to that in the next section. (And, yes, the book will give you answers to questions you didn't even know you had. I really do hope you manage to get a hold of it )

QUICK EDIT: Sorry, I didn't answer your question. I'm trying to decide whether he exists or not based on logical evidence at the moment. I really want to believe he exists, but I'd like to have sound, logical reasons for doing so. I've found a few good reasons in this thread, certainly, but my mind is not yet satisfied. It's getting there, though.

I completely understand this... am hugely grateful for having something reasoned and firm upon which to base my faith. That being said, I think human beings are reluctant to admit our own weaknesses. That is to say, if God resurrected Christ, if He created the heavens and the earth and the seas (and am not talking about young earth creationism... I don't subscribe to it ) and if He can come and live inside us and make us new, and kinder and more loving... is it possible that much about Him defies logic? Or, at least, our limited understanding of it.

It's why I sometimes think debating the philosophy of faith can have us chasing our own tails a little. Too much of this - Him - is unknowable to be able to define it enough to discuss it in the abstract. So I really do completely understand wanting to believe He exists for logical reasons... but I also know that when it comes to loving Him, and accepting His salvation, it's actually not the most important aspect.

Please tell me where I attempted to discredit or mock Christianity, because my intention was not to do either of these things. I could have dropped a few wonderfully disrespectful one-liners (HAHA GOD IS AN IMAGINARY FRIEND!), but I didn't because they poison the well of philosophical discourse, and bring nothing positive to an argument. You're right - if my only reason for joining this board was just to mock the faithful, I'd be a rather pathetic person, wouldn't I? All I've done in this thread to combat the arguments everyone has presented is point out logical fallacies and ask questions.

I must have expressed myself really poorly, am very sorry I didn't mean to imply you've brought any of that stuff here... am wondering why you're exposing yourself to it. Am not your mum, so this isn't me telling you off or presuming to legislate where you can and can't go online - but am genuinely asking why you're visiting sites that have been singularly created to hate Christianity when you're trying to reconcile yourself to it?

The funny thing is, we've had the most evangelical of anti-Christians come here and they'll be made welcome as long as they abide by the site rules. For someone who is firm in their faith, people like that and sites like the amputees one (incidentally, I know of a case where an amputee was healed... I'll have to ask my mum about it because she knows the details, but remind me to tell you what I find out later) are inconsequential. Well, no, they provide an opportunity to actually live what Christ teaches when He says to love even those who hate you and persecute you. But they have no bearing on our faith. Am just a little worried about the affect they'll be having on yours when it's still so vulnerable.

And, again, I believe God will use this period to build you up and develop your relationship with Him, and it'll be much firmer than it was before and I really feel one day you'll be reaching out to others who are struggling, but visiting those sites seems almost self-destructive?

I'm fairly certain you know what a logical fallacy is, but just to make sure. I'm going to show you an example of one...

Logical Fallacy: "I'm good with children, so I'll definitely be a good kindergarten teacher."

Response: "What if you have an IQ of 60? What if you have no degree, or no experience? What if you have sinful sexual urges in regard to children? Just because someone is good with children does not make them a good kindergarten teacher."

I'm not sure I see the relevance... but, yes, as this whole debate becomes more pervasive, and polemical and didactic, fewer people are able to debate it rationally, on both sides.

I have to stress again, however, that God defies logic in almost all ways, so looking to make Him fit into little logical boxes our limited intellects can comprehend puts us at a huge disadvantage.

There's no way to logically understand the nature of sin, or how it entered into the world; nor why Christ took it all upon Himself on the cross that day, nor how He conquered it when He rose from the dead. And those are what makes someone a Christian. There is non-Christian documented support for Christ, and for His crucifixion and even His resurrection... but only faith and personal experience (merely anecdotal to anyone else) allows us to believe in the supernatural aspect.

Finally - have written far, far too much, am sorry - believing God exists logically is an awesome place to start. But that alone doesn't teach us to love others, and to share their burdens, regardless of whether they love us back or not, and that's the main fruit of being a Christian. That's such a little-talked about quality of following Christ. It's not good deeds, or a matter of being a "good person". It's that as you become closer to God, you feel the love He feels for others, and you can't not reach out to them, and hurt when they hurt and want to lift them up... what box do we put that in? Can that shift from "it's all about me" to "it's about you", that unconditional love, be logically deconstructed and analysed?

 

[andreha]

No, I don't expect anyone to prove God beyond a shadow of a doubt any more than I expect to disprove him to anyone. It's impossible! Your testimony actually gives me a little hope, andreha. Honestly, I think your post has been the most helpful to me thus far. I mean, I suppose the possibility always exists that you're lying, but you really seem like you believe that what you're saying is absolutely true, and it makes some logical sense.

That's the thing. There are indeed some artful liars out there. But there are few who would open their mouths and proclaim "Lord, My God, please strike me dead if any of this is falsehood, I beg you!"

Only problem is, if I do so now, about 40 odd people here at work may think I've lost it.

I've had quite a few times, where I would be stuck with a tough programming problem. After praying to the Lord, I would find answers in the most amazing ways. Sometimes I would see vivid pictures of the exact source of the problem. Other times, the Lord just plainly tells me what to do to solve the problems. And, I must say, I'm really happy about the way He helps me. Any proven source of truth that posesses far higher intelligence than onself must be from God. That's what really fires me up about Him. He helps me with everything I need. And the protection. I still need to tell you about that. About some satanists that could not come within a few hundred yards to destroy stop signs in our neighborhood. (I would elaborate, but it's time to start the weekend )
Really awesome stuff.

 

[ProScribe]

Hey folks. I'm new here, and have mainly joined this forum because I've been undergoing a pretty major crisis of faith, and no one in my personal life, including my church, has been able to help me with it. I hope that by asking questions of you all that my understanding will increase, at the very least.

My question is, why do you believe in the Christian God?

Because it is what I understood and believed as a child. For someone having a crisis of faith and a little bit of experience being a Christian I suggest returning back to your childhood faith and what you believed as a child. In the simplest sense.

. . .

 

[drich0150]

Are you saying we CAN'T do God's will? I think I may be misunderstanding you, because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

This is ABSOLUTELY what I am saying! We will NEVER be able to live out God's will. Just By the definition of Free Will, prohibits it.

Sin= anything not in the will of God..

Freewill= is the ability to choose for one's self something not in the will of God..

To exercise free will is to commit sin, other wise you would be exercising God's will for your life, not your own.

This is the reason for Jesus, and his sacrifice. What Jesus did was to allow us a way to live, and choose for ourselves whether or not to have an eternal relationship with God.. Without free will there would be no choice, but in the presents of free will their is sin, and all sin, no matter how small, disqualifies from having communion/relationship with God, that is without a blood sacrifice.

Something without sin has to die for something with sin. (This is true righteousness) Enter Jesus's perfect sacrifice on humanities behalf. It allows to live a life outside of God's will, and if we choose, still qualify for Heaven.

Number one, what makes my literal interpretation of the Bible less accurate than your more liberal interpretation?

Do you think when Joel penned "Who ever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved..." He was referring to blaspheme? Like If someone let it loose a G-dD-mn_____. Are you saying This would automatically be all of the preparation you would need to receive a heavenly reward?

I can think of one of the ten commandments that would disqualify this theory.. If this were the case and not every single utterance is meant to qualify as "calling on the name of the Lord" then somewhere in the translation/culture there is a meaning lost when it is read in English.

Like wise in Mathew When Jesus say not everyone who calls on my name... This should be in of itself is proof.. again, unless you think Joel was originally writing to people who spoke modern English, and that he intended for us to take his translated words literally, and for us to over look any commandment that says otherwise..

When you take the three different languages, the culture and time dividing the three translations into consideration, the meaning of what is being communicated isn't a mystery.. Not if you don't want it to be.

Since you did not accept my literal interpretation, do you acknowledge that the Bible is not literal and much is lost in translation?

It is and always has been lost to those who do not seek God.

You understand that I can't believe in something just because you like it, surely.

My point there was that the Bible is the only "religious book" that God (Holy Spirit) claims to have authored.. If you believe in God, Heaven/Hell, then despite what I like, maybe you should read His book.

You just said you follow God because you want to get into heaven, then you immediately said that you don't worship God to get into heaven, but because you genuinely love him. There's a slight contradiction here, but I believe you meant that BOTH are valid reasons to follow God, which is absolutely fine.

heaven= Paradise, The City of Heaven, streets of Gold, pearly Gates...
Heaven= Where ever God resides, no matter what it looks like. (Merely being in God's presents)

In the Greek and Hebrew there are many many different words that all get simply translated in English to heaven.. Sometimes when I write or speak I may mean Heaven when I say or write heaven.. It is confusing..

To clear thins up, I follow God to be with him, no matter what that place looks like or where it maybe.. When we speak of Heaven God is the Goal not paradise.. That is why I said God being a righteous God will never drag someone into Heaven that has spent his/her entire life putting distance between them. Because Real Heaven is about Who is there, not what is there. So if this life is all I have and there is no heaven/place then I will spent this life trying to get to know God and be as close to him as I can "Heaven." (Indwelling of the Spirit.)

When I believed 100% that heaven and hell existed, I didn't believe they were literally a cloudy paradise and a fiery furnace. Do you?

No, I have always thought these descriptions were used to inspire the emotion or the experience of Heaven or Hell.. I don't think either can be described using our current forms of communication.. Heaven is 1000x's better and Hell is 1000x's worse.

And based on what God/The Bible has helped me with in life (nothing), I would currently rather go to a paradise without him than a fiery pit with him.

Then for you, wouldn't Heaven, be hell? If so, why express an interest to go? Why not simply shoot for Nirvana or to be reincarnated into a higher form of life Like a rat or cow??

 

[MinorityofOne]

Since at least one person who responded to this thread had problems viewing the text I quoted, I'm going to BOLD anything from your post that I'm directly responding to. My thoughts will be in plain text.

is it possible that much about Him defies logic?

Can God create a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift it? Can God create a square circle?

We can assume that if God created everything, he created time, logic, chemistry, and... everything! I'd agree that yes, he is capable of breaking and defying the very 'rules' that control the universe (like physics), but I really believe that he wouldn't have given us the ability to reason if he didn't intend for us to think about him. I don't believe much about him defies logic, but some things may - I just haven't discovered those things yet!

I also know that when it comes to loving Him, and accepting His salvation, it's actually not the most important aspect.

I disagree for Biblical reasons.

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12: 29-31, spoken by Jesus

So having sound reasons for believing in him with your mind could be seen as JUST AS IMPORTANT as loving him completely and fully with your heart. It's not more important, no, but it's just as important.

why you're visiting sites that have been singularly created to hate Christianity when you're trying to reconcile yourself to it?

I'm looking at both sides of the 'God' argument, and I really disagree that these sites have been created to hate Christianity or persecute Christians. They express a viewpoint, just like any Christian site. In fact, you could say that Christian sites are MORE hateful than athiest sites. Don't believe me?

Athiest: Your God isn't real.

Christian: You will burn in hell eternally.

Just because the hell statement might be true doesn't mean it isn't hateful.

only faith and personal experience (merely anecdotal to anyone else) allows us to believe in the supernatural aspect.

How do I have a personal experience with God? I've asked him for years and years to reveal himself to me, but he has remained mute. This is a serious question, I'd really like to know.

that alone doesn't teach us to love others, and to share their burdens, regardless of whether they love us back or not, and that's the main fruit of being a Christian

Cool, because I already do all those things for entirely nonreligious reasons.

Can that shift from "it's all about me" to "it's about you", that unconditional love, be logically deconstructed and analysed?

Yep. Kant (the smart guy in my signature) does it! You're kind-of assuming that Christians are the only ones capable of unconditional love, which I'd take issue with thanks to my own personal experiences... but I won't get into that. Thanks again for all your input, I'm gonna head to the bookstore TONIGHT to find the book you recommended.

 

[MinorityofOne]

I still need to tell you about that. About some satanists that could not come within a few hundred yards to destroy stop signs in our neighborhood. (I would elaborate, but it's time to start the weekend )
Really awesome stuff.

Wow. Yeah, definitely tell me about that, haha. If this thread is dead by the end of your weekend, feel free to send me a private message with your story... it sounds like a good one.

 

[MinorityofOne]

the human soul, should be naturally inclined to love G-d.

I agree to some extent... a vast majority of people would like to believe that there's someone who always loves them, who's always looking out for them, who died to save their soul. Unfortunately, I can't return to my childhood faith of not questioning anything, doing what I was told, and accepting everything I heard from a religious authority as the truth. I would literally be letting myself become brainwashed.

 

[MinorityofOne]

This is ABSOLUTELY what I am saying! We will NEVER be able to live out God's will. Just By the definition of Free Will, prohibits it.

Alright, thanks for clearing that up

Do you think when Joel penned "Who ever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved..." He was referring to blaspheme [sic]?

I can't know what Joel meant, but I think he meant that anyone who earnestly cried out for God's help would be saved.

It is and always has been lost to those who do not seek God.

I sought God for over 16 years of my life, and still seek him now.

My point there was that the Bible is the only "religious book" that God (Holy Spirit) claims to have authored.. If you believe in God, Heaven/Hell, then despite what I like, maybe you should read His book.

I've read it. Twice. I can't say I understand most of it, but I've certainly read it, and thanks for clearing up what you initially meant.

To clear thins up, I follow God to be with him, no matter what that place looks like or where it maybe..

Again, thanks for clearing things up. I misunderstood you earlier.


No, I have always thought these descriptions were used to inspire the emotion or the experience of Heaven or Hell.. I don't think either can be described using our current forms of communication.. Heaven is 1000x's better and Hell is 1000x's worse.

Agreed.

Then for you, wouldn't Heaven, be hell? If so, why express an interest to go? Why not simply shoot for Nirvana or to be reincarnated into a higher form of life Like a rat or cow?

I'd rather be a tiger. Could I be a tiger?

I really want to believe in the Christian god. I really, really do, but at this point, the only thing that's going to cement my faith is if I personally experience him, which has yet to happen in my life.

 

[andreha]

Wow. Yeah, definitely tell me about that, haha. If this thread is dead by the end of your weekend, feel free to send me a private message with your story... it sounds like a good one.

Hey, MinorityofOne

I have my hot coffee next to me, and some nice music playing, so lemme begin. (The sun will rise in another hour or so here in sunny South Africa )

It happened about a year ago. Early in the morning, after sunrise, I went for a long walk in the neighborhood. On these walks, I usually sing praises to the Lord (quietly, so as not to awake sleeping dogs ), and enjoy the beautiful scenery. En route, I saw one after the other stop sign, sprayed with pentagrams, broken and smashed flat to the ground. It didn't phase me much, just left me a bit puzzled. (After all, I faced death a few times already - it doesn't bother me anymore. That's another few posts. )

Anyhow.After arriving back home, it hit me. Like an eighteen wheeler fully laden with bricks, without any brakes. None of the stop signs in the area surrounding my home was damaged at all. And it hit me again. The damage was actually outside the area surrounding my house. All the blocks surrounding my house was left in tact. Then, I heard the voice of the Holy Spirit:

"But my child, don't you realise? The Lord your God assigned His forces to watch over you and protect you. If you could see the angels that patrol in your area, day and night, you would indeed be astonished. Do you think for a moment that He would allow any evil to infiltrate your area and get close to you? By no means. No means at all I say. Remeber, the Lord your God loves his children. He protects them. That is the simple truth."

It left me astonished. Such a real, touchy, feely demonstration of God's protection. It makes me think about the level of protection that even non-Christians enjoy. If that barrier of protection had to be lifted, even momentarily, the people would be destroyed swiftly. By default, demons have enough strength to throw people around like rag dolls. I've actually heard an account of one Christian who briefly experienced this.

What happened is this. This guy was sent by the Lord, for a specific purpose. On his way, he ignored God's orders, and decided to make a self serving display of the power he posesses. He went into a building where there was some demonic influence. This guy decided that he was going to show them. He decided to go directly against God's explicit orders. Orders that were made clear to him. Anyhow, after entering this place, his protection was briefly lifted, to get him to listen. He was thrown about a dozen yards away from the place. He landed hard and started vomiting violently. The Lord then said to him "Have I told you to go there?". The guy got reminded that he himself, who preaches to others about God, does indeed also need to listen and obey Him. It basically happened to the guy because he didn't practice what he preached. It's like a normal father and child relationship. If the child carries on to wilfully disobey the father's wishes, he's going to get disciplined sooner or later.

Anyhow, this does not apply to you. You are indeed under God's 24 by 7 watchful protection. You do indeed seek God. He knows and recognizes that. That's why you don't experience terrifying stuff like that yourself. I do actually believe that you have started feeling the magnetic-like pull of God's love already. That's what's so awesome about being a Christian. The Spirit of God actually enters your soul, and dwells in you. Literally. He has all the power and might of God the Almighty. But He is so gentle. So kind and loving. In actual fact, the only way to really experience His presence and influence is to ask for it out loud, explicitly. He is such an awesome friend to have. Such a wondeful friend to talk to. I'll quote Him, on something we spoke about a while ago:

"My child, I love you. You know that. I would rather be your friend than your lecturer. Allow me to explain. A lecturer is someone you don't see often. It is someone who you don't feel free to talk to about anything. It's someone for whom you prepare your discussion beforehand. The relationship between a student and lecturer is not a close one at all. It is much better to have a close friend, who teaches you, that it is to have a lecturer. That close friend has a much more profound effect on your life than a lecturer will ever have. Yes. I see what you are thinking. You are concerned about seeing me as a friend, for fear of disrespecting me. Hear this then. Do you ever disrespect a close friend? Do you ever mistreat a really close friend? No, you don't. That is exactly the point. I know you. I know you don't disrespect a really good friend. Indeed, who does? Then it wasn't a friend to begin with, was it? That is precisely the reason why I say this. I would indeed prefer to be your friend, than your lecturer. I want to be close to you, to nourish you with the truth, to see you grow, to see you laugh and love. Isn't love the first and highest commandment of God the Almighty? Why should He Himself not show genuine warm love? That is the simple plain truth, my dear child. Tell people about this. They need to hear this. It is love that changes people's hearts. It is that love that opens their hearts to my influence. It is that same love that heals their lives and makes them shine. Remember, this thing was never meant to be complicated."

O, man. I'm at a loss for words right now. I can't even describe how at peace I feel right now. Almost like a pinball machine that tilted. Wow. We'll chat again, I'm sure.

 

[drich0150]

I really want to believe in the Christian god. I really, really do, but at this point, the only thing that's going to cement my faith is if I personally experience him, which has yet to happen in my life.

This is not beyond the scope of God's power, but it will be unlikely that you will get to see proof before you believe.. your situation kinda reminds me of the latter part of the story told in Luke 16:


19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

If you do not already seek a relationship with God then even a face to face experience, will most likely result in quick spiritual growth, but when the trials hit you again, your faith will wither and die, like the parable about the seeds and soil found in Matt 13:

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."

______________________________


18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."




If you truly seek Jesus/God Then ask him to prepare your heart to receive him. This usually requires a Breaking of the spirit, because The Holy Spirit and Pride cannot occupy the same heart.. If you can learn to humble yourself before the Lord He will lift you up. When you are in a place where you don't need to see God, He or a messenger will sometimes show up. It all depends on you, your heart, your mission, and your willingness to follow wherever he leads..

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Can God create a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift it? Can God create a square circle?

I really wish the "Omnipotence Paradox" wasn't constantly dragged into every single apologetics debate. It's the nadir of Pro-Atheism philosophy and there's no way to answer without there being great oil-slicks of conjecture. I honestly don't understand why the same 2 questions come up, again and again. An omnipotent being can create a rock that it cannot lift. It can also lift that rock. That's omnipotence.

Further, an omnipotent being can change the rules. Whatever the rules are being applied, He can change them so that they no longer do. It's beyond our comprehension, and our asking about rocks and squares and limiting Him to either/or shows how underqualified we are to be considering ideas as huge as omnipotence when all we have to go on is our limited understanding of the laws of physics... rules which, if He exists, He invented and, if He is omnipotent, He can arbitrarily alter.

But beyond that, we didn't invent Him - how can we possibly understand everything about Him? Were He our creation instead of the other way around, you'd have every right to expect answers to every minutiae... but He is beyond our scope of comprehension in so many ways.

In other words, we can't analyse religion and spirituality logically, or scientifically. So I agree that miracles and events, for example, appear logically inconsistent, but I accept that that simply means logic and science are unequipped to explain the supernatural. Just as the supernatural is ill-equipped to explain the scientific. Both are equally important, and yet I think often times people feel it has to be one or the other.

We can assume that if God created everything, he created time, logic, chemistry, and... everything! I'd agree that yes, he is capable of breaking and defying the very 'rules' that control the universe (like physics), but I really believe that he wouldn't have given us the ability to reason if he didn't intend for us to think about him. I don't believe much about him defies logic, but some things may - I just haven't discovered those things yet!

Let's assume Christ was physcially resurrected, can you explain it logically?

I disagree for Biblical reasons.

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these." - Mark 12: 29-31, spoken by Jesus

So having sound reasons for believing in him with your mind could be seen as JUST AS IMPORTANT as loving him completely and fully with your heart. It's not more important, no, but it's just as important.

I love the verse you've included, but I'm not sure it says anything about accepting Him logically? This could take us down a dead-end of semantics, possibly, so I don't want us to get waylaid, but our minds are a part of us... it's Him telling us we need to love Him fully, completely, with all of ourselves, not that we need to pick Him apart intellectually and rationally until He fits our intellect.

I'm looking at both sides of the 'God' argument, and I really disagree that these sites have been created to hate Christianity or persecute Christians. They express a viewpoint, just like any Christian site. In fact, you could say that Christian sites are MORE hateful than athiest sites. Don't believe me?

Athiest: Your God isn't real.

Christian: You will burn in hell eternally.

Just because the hell statement might be true doesn't mean it isn't hateful.

I find the Christian example eminently more hateful than the atheist one given, actually. But you've stacked the decks a little... are you really claiming "Your God isn't real" is the extent of the atheist message on sites like the amputee one?

It's not even the extent of the message from some of the atheist contingent here... Again, have seen atheists say Christians have a memetic illness, and that the kindest thing they can do as "brights" is introduce eugenics and get us at birth so the "evil malignant scourge" can be wiped out. That was on Amazon. Not even a site specifically created to hate us.

If you come across Christian sites that are all about mocking atheism, you'll have a valid point. But most Christian sites have their eyes on God, while most Atheist/anti-Christian (note, I capitalised the "A"... there's a difference between atheism and Atheism) sites have their eyes on us. In any event, none of that's relevant - we're all entitled to read whatever we wish. If they help you to come back to Him, it's good they're there.

How do I have a personal experience with God? I've asked him for years and years to reveal himself to me, but he has remained mute. This is a serious question, I'd really like to know.

You mentioned before that you spent years ministering to people n stuff which is wonderful. But did you really never feel His presence, or guidance, or protection or strength or love?

As to how to experience Him... I don't know. I so wish I could give you a formula that would make all this better for you, but I don't know. I think we just need to ask Him, and He'll make Himself known.

I think, also, it can depend on what sort of experience/reassurance you want.

Yep. Kant (the smart guy in my signature) does it! You're kind-of assuming that Christians are the only ones capable of unconditional love, which I'd take issue with thanks to my own personal experiences... but I won't get into that.

Not at all. Most parents have unconditional love for their children, for example. We're certainly capable of it, but I fundamentally believe that in all other cases we're all too flawed to actually have it. I certainly don't. But, yes, I believe that only someone who is sharing God's love will be able to unconditionally love people who are not only unknown to them, but who are actively harming/attacking/persecuting them. It's not a question of non-Christians being rubbish; it's a question of God being awesome. As people, we're all pretty much the same. God is the difference.

I'm gonna head to the bookstore TONIGHT to find the book you recommended.

Did you manage to get a copy of it?

ETA: Amazon and eBay have it if you weren't able to.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Every time I got on my knees I asked him to speak with me. I'd say there's a significant need for it now - I'm on the verge of abandoning my Christian beliefs entirely. I may never come back to Christ if he does not reveal himself to me in some way, so please tell me: How did you seek this 'gift' of hearing God speak?

I really just went around doing good as I had the opportunity, helping the poor and asking people out to church. He really just started up. I had been a Christian for years and never recieved any kind of word of knowledge, he just started to show me he could. But he does not speak all the time or respond to me just because I ask. Some times it is very silent. You could try just asking him to speak to you and listen for a reply.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

I heard a testimony today, MoO, that made me think of you It was a chap who was a famous photographer in the 60s, but he got hugely addicted to drugs and ended up on the streets. Anyway, he was an atheist with a Christian friend who had witnessed to him, and he ended up in hospital and he hit rock bottom. In that room, he experienced God's presence when he vocally called out to Christ, and wanted - needed - to hear Him and feel Him with all of his heart.

The chap talked about feeling God's presence right there and then in an almost tangible way, and everything changed. He was also healed of the addictions spontaneously, but the thing that stayed with him (and he phrased it so wonderfully) was that God is only a mention of His name away.

I think maybe it's as easy - and difficult - as that, really.

ETA: Have just seen your usertitle... what an encouraging thing to read

 

[EazyMack]

Too much evidence in favor of a Creator, no real evidence against it (this is not a complete objection to evolution, just certain key points in Darwin's theory).

Too much evidence in favor of Christ being who He said He was, no real evidence against it.

Too many lives in this world transformed in a positive way as a result of discovering the love of Christ.

Too many times I've tested God in my own life & He has fulfilled absolutely everything for me.

 

[MinorityofOne]

... rules which, if He exists, He invented and, if He is omnipotent, He can arbitrarily alter.

Whoops, yeah. I skipped explaining why I included those two questions (one of them being posed by C.S. Lewis, originally), but I included them because yes, God could do both of those things if He created the rules. Kinda like when you're a kid and you made up games with rules, but you might change them when it suited you.

But beyond that, we didn't invent Him -

Did we invent Allah? People have personal experiences with him, too.
(do a google search to find some)

In other words, we can't analyse religion and spirituality logically, or scientifically. So I agree that miracles and events, for example, appear logically inconsistent, but I accept that that simply means logic and science are unequipped to explain the supernatural. Just as the supernatural is ill-equipped to explain the scientific. Both are equally important, and yet I think often times people feel it has to be one or the other.

Agreed.

Let's assume Christ was physcially resurrected, can you explain it logically?

Sure, sort-of.

Premise: God is omnipotent. (an already impossible-to-grasp idea)

Conclusion: God can do anything he wants, including sending himself to hell while he simultaneously sits in heaven, then bringing himself up to heaven from hell to sit beside himself, then resurrecting himself from the dead on Earth, even when he wasn't really dead in the first place, he was in heaven the whole time...

You know what, you're right. I can't do it.

I love the verse you've included, but I'm not sure it says anything about accepting Him logically? This could take us down a dead-end of semantics, possibly, so I don't want us to get waylaid, but our minds are a part of us... it's Him telling us we need to love Him fully, completely, with all of ourselves, not that we need to pick Him apart intellectually and rationally until He fits our intellect.

It would take us down a dead-end, so I'll leave it at this.

I find the Christian example eminently more hateful than the atheist one given, actually. But you've stacked the decks a little... are you really claiming "Your God isn't real" is the extent of the atheist message on sites like the amputee one?

I actually haven't read 99% of the amputee site. A friend sent me the link to that site/story when I asked if he knew of any well-documented miracles.

It's not even the extent of the message from some of the atheist contingent here... Again, have seen atheists say Christians have a memetic illness, and that the kindest thing they can do as "brights" is introduce eugenics and get us at birth so the "evil malignant scourge" can be wiped out.

All I can do is LOL!

If you come across Christian sites that are all about mocking atheism, you'll have a valid point. But most Christian sites have their eyes on God, while most Atheist/anti-Christian (note, I capitalised the "A"... there's a difference between atheism and Atheism) sites have their eyes on us. In any event, none of that's relevant - we're all entitled to read whatever we wish. If they help you to come back to Him, it's good they're there.You mentioned before that you spent years ministering to people n stuff which is wonderful. But did you really never feel His presence, or guidance, or protection or strength or love?

1: Most of the Christians I know are happy to mock atheists. I haven't sought out many Christian sites (outside of this one), so I don't know what they focus on.

2: Yep, the majority of atheist sites that I know of exist specifically to deconstruct and disprove Christianity.

3: It's difficult for me to answer the last question you propose. For example, some people say that they feel God in praise and worship. I feel the same during praise and worship as I do during secular concerts - I get caught up in the music and feel great, but I don't know that it has anything to do with God.

Did you manage to get a copy of it?

I'll be getting one within a week or so, I special ordered it at Borders.

Random Update:

I prayed for God to reveal himself to me over this past week. Mere hours after I attempted to speak with him, my Christian friend comes over to my house to watch a movie and - guess what - he brings Religulous! XD Not sure if that was a sign from God or not, but I found it funny at the time.

 

[MinorityofOne]

Long Post.

Lol, a pinball machine - I'm assuming the quote you left was of God speaking to you (or to me through you) since you didn't cite any other sources, like the Bible. Out of curiosity and ignorance, I ask, is Christianity not a common religion in South Africa?

And I actually believe you when you speak about demons, sir. Did you realize that approximately 100 people are killed directly by demons every year? Seriously. I did some research on what happened to you as a child (being attacked by demons), and found out from SCIENTIFIC SOURCES (amazing!) that a small number of people have recurring dreams about demons and other creatures attacking them. If these dreams go on for too long (like several months/years, according to my source), the people that experience them can actually go into cardiac arrest and die!

Also, how did you know about the guy vomiting? Did you see it, read about, hear about it, or did God reveal this information to you?

 

[andreha]

Lol, a pinball machine - I'm assuming the quote you left was of God speaking to you (or to me through you) since you didn't cite any other sources, like the Bible. Out of curiosity and ignorance, I ask, is Christianity not a common religion in South Africa?

And I actually believe you when you speak about demons, sir. Did you realize that approximately 100 people are killed directly by demons every year? Seriously. I did some research on what happened to you as a child (being attacked by demons), and found out from SCIENTIFIC SOURCES (amazing!) that a small number of people have recurring dreams about demons and other creatures attacking them. If these dreams go on for too long (like several months/years, according to my source), the people that experience them can actually go into cardiac arrest and die!

Also, how did you know about the guy vomiting? Did you see it, read about, hear about it, or did God reveal this information to you?

Hey there, MinorityOfOne!

Yup, that quote was from Him indeed. The events that lead up to me hearing Him was more or less like this. I was tested twice. Both tests were quite challenging. After those two tests, I heard His Spirit, asking me what I would want, if I could have anything. Eventually, He coucilled me to choose to have a close, personal relationship with God. So that's where it came from. God said to me "My child, you were ready to obey me into death, twice. That is why I posed you that question - in order to reward you. The fact that you chose me pleased me greatly"

Yes, here in South Africa Christianity is quite widespread. God gave me this ability to look into people's eyes, and see the presence of His Spirit in people. It caused me to boldly inform a manager at work the other day that I sense she believes in God, and invited her to our prayer group. Needless to say, I was spot on, thanks to the help of the Holy Spirit.

And about those demons, I remember once, where my heart probably did stop during a dream. I was so afraid that I felt this terrible pain in my chest. It was such a violent jolt that woke me up. My chest was so painful. But that stopped after I asked Jesus to help.

I am still hearing the voice of God. There are some big things coming in this world. He loves the people very dearly. He wants to get their attention. He knows that He foretold the end of the universe. That's why He wants people to rely on Him - so that they will have an eternal future. He reminds me that it's so very simple to say "Lord Jesus, please save me". He confirms that this is all we need to do in order to have an eternal future. He wants people to realise that people don't have to be perfect, or to stick to any routines in order to be with Him one day. We just need to ask. The reason why He is sending all these powerful sings of the end times is to prevent people from suffering through all the violent events to come. He is so wonderfully passionately in love with His people. He wants to be with them again. It has been so long. I feel the burning love He has for His creation.

He says "My dear children. I love you with such a rich, passionate love. Just call on the name of my Son, and I promise, you will be here with Me."

Wow man. What shall I say.... *drying my eyes*
Regards
Andre