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Because I cannot not.Why YOU believe in the Christian God.
Part of the reason I asked is because I'm not sure how that would be helpful to you. The reason I believe isn't a reason for anyone else to believe.Give any answers you believe will be helpful to me.
Most of your testimonies involve you speaking to God. So, you heard him speak? Was there anyone else around that heard his voice, too, or was he just speaking to you? How did you know it was God? I ask because in all my years as a Christian, I never once have had God speak to me directly. Why would he speak to you, and not to me? I accepted Jesus as my savior, became active in my church, ministered frequently (and converted many to the Christian cause), prayed often, and read scripture on a regular basis, yet God never spoke to me.
Attempting to respond to you all - sorry if I miss anyone!
Why YOU believe in the Christian God. Give any answers you believe will be helpful to me.
I'm confused by this. Can you elaborate? Did creatures literally come and beat you with their fists and claws? Did you have nightmares? Your response doesn't give me many specifics!
Most of your testimonies involve you speaking to God. So, you heard him speak? Was there anyone else around that heard his voice, too, or was he just speaking to you? How did you know it was God? I ask because in all my years as a Christian, I never once have had God speak to me directly. Why would he speak to you, and not to me? I accepted Jesus as my savior, became active in my church, ministered frequently (and converted many to the Christian cause), prayed often, and read scripture on a regular basis, yet God never spoke to me.
Great testimony, but it leaves me with many of the same questions. Are you sure it was God speaking to you? Did anyone else hear him? How do I know that you weren't high when you heard him? That you weren't delusional? That you aren't insane? That's kinda the problem with personal accounts. While many of them sound incredible, when you apply the principles of logic to them they simply do not stand up to investigation.
Circular logic, again. While this may make perfect sense to you, it will not fly with a rational person... and this is why.
Premise: God = Christ = The Holy Ghost. The three are one being.
Premise: Immanuel, God With Us, and 'Him' refer to God.
Thus, part of your argument may be read:
When I look at Christ I know I am seeing Christ... Christ is real, is Christ, Christ. I believe in Christ because I believe that Christ is Christ.
It lacks any rational basis and is, essentially, meaningless.
Now, to respond to the middle of your argument:
Have you studied every other god to the extent that you've studied the Christian one? If not, you can't support your argument because you are ignorant of other religions and gods, and once again it is rendered meaningless.
Elaborate, please? What is your 'personal relationship' like with God?
This one's gonna take a while. How do we know that Jesus kept all 10 commandments for all his life?
Quick Edit: Also, the 10 commandments should not be looked at as the end-all, be-all of moral codes. How well you follow them does not determine how 'good' or 'bad' you are as a person.
How do we know heaven is real? Why do we need to be 'redeemed'?
I'll read it after the book that was recommended to me earlier in the thread, possibly.
I'm not going to address every prophecy because I don't have the time. I'll respond to the most significant one, though.
Born of a Virgin, Isaiah / Matt:
Premise: Matthew had access to the book of Isaiah when he wrote his account of Jesus life. In Isaiah, it's mentioned that the messiah will be born of a virgin.
Premise: Matthew believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
Conclusion: Thus, Matthew would attribute a Virgin Birth to Jesus whether or not he knew it was true. To Matthew, Jesus was the messiah, so of COURSE he was born of a virgin.
Hopefully my issues with that prophecy made sense.
Pretty irrelevant, but thanks for the info.
You're talking about the BIBLE, not the NEW TESTAMENT alone, right? I mentioned an inconsistency earlier in the thread. Take a look. It definitely does contain inconsistencies, but you are more than capable of rationalizing them away.
Every claim written in books is true? According to that logic, EVERY religious book is true, because they all claim to be true. This isn't evidence.
Tyre was rebuilt, and still stands today. The end of time has not come yet, so we can't say that Nineveh and Babylon will not be rebuilt. :] Also, can we really be impressed by people saying "In this time of war and strife, this city will be destroyed." I predicted that Saddam Hussein would be caught and killed the day the Iraq war began, but you won't worship me (darn!), yet my prediction is very similar to the ones made in the Bible.
Man didn't know the above for 350 years. I'm pretty sure any halfwit noticed 'Hey, something is making my feet stay on the ground, it's gravity." and "Hey, the horizon is curved, maybe the Earth is a circle." Speaking of, my version of the Bible doesn't mention that the Earth is a sphere, it says the Earth is a circle, and even people who believe in a flat earth believe the earth is a circle.
The Bible is also wrong about several things that can be proved. For example, it is written in the BIBLE that Noah's ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet tall. Two of each animal that exists today could not fit on this ark.
In order to use these documents as evidence that the Bible is true, you must accept that the documents are true... but do you really think the Epic of Gilgamesh is true? Really? REALLY really?
I've heard most of your arguments before, salida, and it just isn't convincing unless you already believe that the Bible is true.
Wall of text crits you for 3000 damage.
Well, its quite wonderful, actually.Originally Posted by aiki
Circular logic, again. While this may make perfect sense to you, it will not fly with a rational person... and this is why.
Premise: God = Christ = The Holy Ghost. The three are one being.
Premise: Immanuel, God With Us, and 'Him' refer to God.
Thus, part of your argument may be read:
When I look at Christ I know I am seeing Christ... Christ is real, is Christ, Christ. I believe in Christ because I believe that Christ is Christ.
It lacks any rational basis and is, essentially, meaningless.
Now, to respond to the middle of your argument:
Have you studied every other god to the extent that you've studied the Christian one? If not, you can't support your argument because you are ignorant of other religions and gods, and once again it is rendered meaningless.
Because I challenged God of the Bible... to please stand up... I wanted a one on one meeting with Him.. and He showed me how to meet the Holy One. It was through His six months of personal study with His Word, His still small voice, and the concordance and a scribbler and lots of prayer talk.. that I was being prepared for what all the authors of scripture experienced... meeting Him. .. He offers that same opportunity.. Rev 3:20.. put your finger on it and ask for an audience with the King of the Universe.Hey folks. I'm new here, and have mainly joined this forum because I've been undergoing a pretty major crisis of faith, and no one in my personal life, including my church, has been able to help me with it. I hope that by asking questions of you all that my understanding will increase, at the very least.
My question is, why do you believe in the Christian God?
That's just it.. as a true christian you know we are always out side of God's will, but there is still grace and forgiveness to be found through Jesus.. Meaning we don't have to live a certain way to obtain righteousness..
Using this chain of logic you have acknowledged the "Christian God" as the God over Heaven and hell... If this is the case, then wouldn't "we" need to adhere to the christian God's rules? If your friends choose to worship "other gods" then ultimately aren't they answerable to them? Do you think any of their religious beliefs will have mercy for the "unbelievers" of their religions?
drich0150 said:If your really looking rightly divide these passages I will help you here... There is a line there if you wish to acknowledge it.
drich0150 said:...Because, The Bible is the only work inspired by God.. The Koran, an angel, Mahabharata, the works of Karma, Gilgamesh, the works of Sumerian Legend, and on and on... The Bible claims to be the Work of the Holy Spirit, and because it is Heaven I want to get into, and not a cow in the next life, it is the reason I choose the bible.
drich0150 said:If there is a God, and the bible is still the inspired word of God then yes.. Not because of what awaits for me in the next life, but because I honestly Love God in this one. Remember that is what makes Heaven, Heaven.. Not the stuff that one may think is there. You get to be with the one you love with all of your being!
drich0150 said:Now Quid pro Quo.. If If God lived in a fiery pit "Heaven" and Hell was paradise would you still want to go to Heaven?
Because I cannot not.
Part of the reason I asked is because I'm not sure how that would be helpful to you. The reason I believe isn't a reason for anyone else to believe.
No one else was around at the time, and when God speaks he does not do so in an audiable way, it is through the mind. How do I know it was God: who else would it be, he bought a person to salvation.
Why does he not talk to you? Maybe you have never asked him to. Maybe there was never a need for it. Every body in the church has a different function. But it is a gift you can seek.
Hi MinorityofOne. This multiquote thing seems to dislike my browser.
That thing with the demons confused the heck out of me, because as a child I didn't even know such things existed. They were not visible, but the effects were impossible to miss. They paralyzed me in my bed, and I could feel a terrifying presence, a burning smell was also noticable. Much later, I found out that this is typical demon manifestation. At first, I thought they were nightmares, but they did wake me up every night, with a terrible jolt. Afterwards, I'd usually be covered in sweat, and have some difficulty regaining control over my breathing. After I called for the Lord to Help me, this stopped abruptly. It's been about 32 years ago, still no attacks.
And that one about the car accident that would have wiped me out. By definition, only God would step in to save one's life. No evil force would ever do that. The voice was not audible as with normal human speech, but it came through my mind with crystal clarity. I was alone in the car at that time - on the way to work. What was also quite supernatural was that control of my body was taken over, in order to save my life. The thing you say about personal accounts makes sense, because it is indeed the kind of thing that someone else would find hard to believe. I could tell you about my stable career as a Software developer, or the fact that I'm working for a large stock exchange, or the fact that I have no criminal records. Even that I have no record of mental instability, being delusional or whatever. The thing is that none of this would really offer the kind of proof that would convince one beyond any shadow of a doubt.
If I never experienced stuff like this myself, it would indeed have been a bit of a challenge to really believe it.
I didn't even realize you were asking for logic. I'm a rational person, and a rational person, unlike you, recognizes the uses and limits of logic and reason the way a carpenter recognizes the uses and limits of a hammer. If you want to "prove" Jesus is God, you might as well try and paint a house with a hammer; you're just going to waste a lot of time. Which is what it seems you're here doing in this forum; just killing some time. Time is short, don't kill too much of it.
You need to make up your mind, or at least don't move the goalpost. You asked "Why do you believe in the Christian God?" Now you're complaining that you didn't receive a "rational basis" for my belief. I didn't intend to offer one. My belief, like everyone else's here, is not rational, and is not irrational. It's a-rational. And that's unrelated to whether it's meaningful or meaningless. I simply see that Christ is God.
I've done some "studying", yes. Enough to satisfy myself, but no amount would satisfy you.
Well, its quite wonderful, actually.
That's not really the kind of answer you're looking for, is it?
I expect what you're asking for is concrete evidence for my belief that I'm actually in a genuine relationship with God. You want to know that my "relationship with God" isn't just all in my head. Am I right? Well, assuming that I am correct in my assumption about what you want, let me respond with these reasons for my belief that I am in a relationship with God:
(stuff)
Peace to you.
Because I challenged God of the Bible... to please stand up... I wanted a one on one meeting with Him.. and He showed me how to meet the Holy One. It was through His six months of personal study with His Word, His still small voice, and the concordance and a scribbler and lots of prayer talk.. that I was being prepared for what all the authors of scripture experienced... meeting Him. .. He offers that same opportunity.. Rev 3:20.. put your finger on it and ask for an audience with the King of the Universe.
[/FONT]The miracle of Jeanna Giese
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]There are so many examples of the power of prayer, but one in particular deserves special consideration because it is so well documented. In December of 2004 a girl named Jeanna Giese survived a bite from a rabid bat through prayer. Hundreds of newspapers (including the Raleigh News and Observer in my home town) ran stories about the miracle of her recovery with headlines such as "Rabies girl in miracle recovery." In Raleigh, the headline was "Web weaves global prayer circle - Petitions circle the world as girl beats rare case of rabies." [Source: by Sharon Roznik, Raleigh News and Observer, December 17, 2004] [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]The summary of the story goes like this. Jeanna was in a church service in Wisconsin when a brown bat fell into the aisle. She picked the bat up and carried it outside. No one gave it a second thought. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]According to the article, a global prayer circle helped Jeanna survive. Once she got sick, Jeanna's father called friends and asked them to pray for Jeanna. People around the world heard about her story through the press and by word of mouth. They prayed. They sent emails. They passed the word along. Millions of people heard about Jeanna's plight and they said prayers for her. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was [/FONT][FONT=arial, Helvetica]the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them. [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]This is amazing stuff. The dictionary defines a miracle as "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." [ref] So we must ask a fundamental question: Did an all-loving, all-powerful God hear the prayers from Jeanna's worldwide prayer circle and then reach down from heaven to help Jeanna? Did God actually interact with Jeanna's body, making the impossible happen and curing her case of rabies through a divine miracle? [/FONT]
[FONT=arial, Helvetica]Or did something else happen?[/FONT]
The truth of god can absolutely be explored through logic, and any limits imposed on logic are self-imposed.
Absolutely true, because it is impossible to do enough studying to support your flawed argument. I'm starting to sense some anger - if reading this thread is only going to make you upset, I suggest you stop now. I have no desire to influence your mood in a negative way. Go in peace.
That's ok... I guess, am not really trying to convince you. I don't believe there's a single thing any of us could say that would convince you, because the relationship you have with Him is between you and Him. I certainly don't expect anecdotal evidence from a stranger to convince you. It was, however, enough to convince me. I really believe that if you need to experience an encounter with Him to follow Him again, He'll make Himself known to you. What's up to you, though, is whether you accept what you're experiencing with simple, honest faith, or whether you tie yourself into intellectual knots trying to prick holes in it.I'm not going to deconstruct your miracle logically, because I have no desire to change YOUR beliefs.All I'll say is that what you've written has not really convinced me that the dream was definitely, 100% without a doubt from God.
And were we discussing a holy book, I'd agree with you. But we're discussing a scholarly book that's intellectually, historically and factually rigorous. 700 pages of documented, verified, unarguable proof is eminently more reliable than 700 pages of Indian holy book. I maintain that a tome of intellectual, documented, historical, geographical support for the Christian faith is persuasive. The Bible, for example, teaches us what we have faith in; it's a map, and a love letter from God to us. If we compare it to Romeo and Juliet, for a minute, Evidence That Demands a Verdict is the accompanying text-book with the foot-notes and analysis.That's a hasty generalization, a logical fallacy. A book's thickness/weight has no bearing on how true or reliable it is. The Indian holy books have over seven times more content than the Bible, but that alone does not make them more or less true/reliable than Christian scripture. Anyhow, I'll definitely be picking up the book you recommended by the end of the week.
If you have reason to believe, you can choose to take that step without having it all figured out. Like joining the dots.I'm not particularly well-versed in science or math, so I'm a bit lost by this comparison. Can you rephrase your explanation? I really do want to understand. :]
Do you believe He exists at all?Yes.If I logically deduced that the god presented in the Bible is an evil and malicious being, I would not follow him. I DON'T currently think he's an evil being, this is just an example of why his character matters.
No, I wasn't upset. Sorry if I came off that way.But I meant what I said literally - one cannot do enough studying to prove the question you're asking. It's just not a question of discerning the truth or falsity of a logical argument, nor a matter of "if I learn enough facts, I can deduce the correct answer about God."
Chesterton said:one cannot do enough studying to prove the question you're asking. It's just not a question of discerning the truth or falsity of a logical argument, nor a matter of "if I learn enough facts, I can deduce the correct answer about God."
I don't know.
That's ok... I guess, am not really trying to convince you. I don't believe there's a single thing any of us could say that would convince you, because the relationship you have with Him is between you and Him. I certainly don't expect anecdotal evidence from a stranger to convince you. It was, however, enough to convince me. I really believe that if you need to experience an encounter with Him to follow Him again, He'll make Himself known to you. What's up to you, though, is whether you accept what you're experiencing with simple, honest faith, or whether you tie yourself into intellectual knots trying to prick holes in it.
[/COLOR said:GreenMunchkin]And were we discussing a holy book, I'd agree with you. But we're discussing a scholarly book that's intellectually, historically and factually rigorous. 700 pages of documented, verified, unarguable proof is eminently more reliable than 700 pages of Indian holy book. I maintain that a tome of intellectual, documented, historical, geographical support for the Christian faith is persuasive. The Bible, for example, teaches us what we have faith in; it's a map, and a love letter from God to us. If we compare it to Romeo and Juliet, for a minute, Evidence That Demands a Verdict is the accompanying text-book with the foot-notes and analysis.If you have reason to believe, you can choose to take that step without having it all figured out. Like joining the dots.Do you believe He exists at all?
[/COLOR said:GreenMunchkin]"I have a question for you, if that's okIf you're looking to re-establish your faith, am curious as to why you're visiting sites with the sole purpose of discrediting/mocking Christianity. They're handy for picking up snippets of the anti-Christian apologia and snarky one-liners denigrating anyone of faith, but I don't see how it would benefit you in any way?
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