Why do you all adore Paul Washer??

[BlackSabb]

to different degrees of consecration. God is not a respector of persons.

I here speak of things that many almost laugh at me when I tell them about it, like, "Those aren't sins....you should hear what I did." Well, they don't know, but the "innocent" books like Lord of the Rings and other such similar nonsense led me to worse sins to the point that I am ashamed to even name them, and even got banned off a "Christian" forum one time for listing some of them. And I KNOW that these "innocent" books that some Christians even use as a teaching tool these days,were the biggest root cause leading to those sins, because they are absolutely saturated with the occult, including even C.S. Lewis. I can trace a specific chain of events back to Tolkien, Lewis' best buddy, and the Lord of the Rings, and the manner in which I justified continuing to ignore the "still small voice" telling me not to read it any more, along with other games and books.

But as stated, God is not respector of persons. The Spirit of God absolutely does not let me get away with ANYTHING without immediate and total conviction.

One time, one of my buddies had "convinced" me to go with him to a bar, "You don't have to drink anything, just go with me." Well, by the time I took the first step in the place, the Holy Spirit had already told me, "Get out now." I couldn't have taken another step in that place if I wanted to.

I never was one who listened to secular music very often, but there was at time around the time I was going to college that I did for a while, but his was right in the middle of one of my worst backslidings ever, in which I did all those hideous things that people ban me from a christian forum for admiting. But I have gotten to the place, or rather God has gotten me there, where he will immediately convict me and I do not dare disobey. I took all those books and games, even the most "innocent" ones, even the "historical" ones, and threw them away. The radio stays tuned to Christian radio, and half the time the Lord doesn't even want me listening to those, because they are so worldly and fake.

But Tolkien was a huge snare for me, (and really for all christians, they just don't admit it, just as I did not admit it). Those books were a huge snare for me because the devil used them as a wedge to bring me to worse and worse forms of occult, and Tokien's books ARE entirely occultic, no matter whether or not he was a "christian".

Oh but, "Every Christian" was doing it, as they are so many other deceptive things. Why? Because they aren't consecrated to God as they should be. This is part of the reason we have so high of a divorce rate among "christians". Do what "we" want to do, and just make up some excuse why it isn't a "sin" for us to do it. "That might be wrong for someone else, but its not wrong for me. "I" can handle it."

We always want to justify why it is not a sin to do something, but in reality, it is a sin.

God has one law. What is wrong for me is also wrong for you.

Ultimately, this sort of thing is the same problem as the children of Israel in the wilderness. "We were better off in Egypt, lets go back there, at least theres food and we were 'at peace'."

So you run from yourself, having seen your sins and anger, which God was revealing to you, and instead of running to the foot of the Cross, you run back to "Egypt". Whether "Egypt" goes by the name of Tolkien, or Super Mario, or Black Sabbath, or a drug or alcohol, doesn't matter. Its still "egypt" and you end up just as much a slave as you originally were.

Now, forsake "Egypt" and you will find the Hivites and the Amalekites are still there waiting for "round 2".

Wade that's EXACTLY what I go thru w/ my stuff.

And once again, the same problem with the both of you. Nadiine and Wade were involved with this and that and led me to this, and therefore it is bad.

It would be like me eating some peanuts and suffering an allergic reaction, which is my testimony. And now I go out everywhere preaching against eating peanuts.

Nadiine, Wade, I have never been involved with anything since returning to secular music. My situation and both of yours cannot be compared. Both of you state things like these things became your idol and you got involved in the occult and you hung at places you shouldn't etc.

None of this applies to me. I haven't done any of these things since returning to secular music. And as far as an "idol", I put a cd on to listen to about once a month. If at that. I've never gone to places I shouldn't, or being in the occult, or had seedy friends I shouldn't, or drink excessively, or taken up drugs or smoking etc. All I have done is bought secular music which I now and then listen to.

Stop sharing your testimonies and then attempting to apply it to everyone else. Not everyone will suffer an allergic reaction if they eat peanuts. Not everyone will walk the dark side if they listen to secular music or play video games or be into Lord of the Rings.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept your situations as befitting me. Both of you are desperate to pull down something I like and attempt some justification based on your personal experiences. But like I said, my situation is nothing like yours and my experiences are not comparable to yours at all.

 

[SoundCard]

The main reason I don't get worked up over music, or the material things of this world, is because of how very short lived it all is. But I want to address something first.
A thought came to me today at work, while I was working on the dishes in back. I was thinking, what did it mean to be involved in paganism, or to idol worship back then? What is the context of these things? Paganism was a religious following that revered spirits. Idol worship is giving something power over your life that isn't God. Whether it's by choice, or by fear, either way you give power to it. If you spend your days being afraid of all these things, you put them on some kind of pedistal that puts a shadow between you and God in my opinion.
The thing is, all of the things that we enjoy today, movies, tv shows, video games, all these things are ephemeral. They will fade away one day. The things of this world will pass away, but God is eternal. Think of another thing, the things of this world can be used for good or evil. Evil may put things in place, but isn't it written that God will work all things towards your good in a relationship with Him? God is more powerful than this world, God is greater than anything this world can conjer, and all things in this world are subject to His will, and if a person can make use of these worldly things for a higher purpose as His will dictates, such as using your listening to Black Sabbath to speak to other rock listeners to get your foot in the door to maybe at some point spread the good news of the Gospel? Instead of fearing all these things the world throws at us, we can turn them into tools for His glory. Yes, some things are rubbish, some songs are absolute garbage, some shows deserve to be banned from television and never spoken of again, but those of lesser ends, those of less consequence, they all have their uses, and they were put in place for a reason. So stop judging people for their taste in music, stop being so hard on someone because they play video games, if such things aggrivated triggers in your lives that lead you to sin, then yes, avoid them. But all people in Christ have a unique relationship with God, though we all know what is sin. All people in Christ are unique, though we all have the same God. All who are in Christ have the same guarantee of salvation no matter what, so even if we do go too far, He won't let that go unanswered. He will intervene. He is faithful even if we are not, He is righteous even if we forget what it is. Though this world and all that is in it will pass away, He will stand eternal.

What we have here is a doctrine of fear, a doctrine of condemnation! When God Himself, when Christ came to us, not to destroy us with His first coming, but to reconcile us onto God! I know there are things out there that are no good, but to just say, do not do this, do not listen to that, don't eat this, don't drink that, isn't that legalism? Isn't that condemning someone for something that's a matter of faith? What may cause one brother to stumble may be what sets one on their way to increase in their love for God! Sin will always be sin, but we've come onto Christ, we know that full well! We know what constitutes sin! There ARE things in this life that won't lead us to sin, there ARE things that can be done that will increase that love in God!

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Oh you people. Wade, I can't believe you're making allusions to Egypt. Do you even know what Egypt was, or why the Israelites wanting to go back there was wrong? Egypt was slavery. Their wanting to go back was them not trusting God's promise, that's what was wrong. God promised them the "promised land", that He would take care of them, and instead, they wanted to comfort of the rule of the Egyptians to take care of them.

So, your analogy is not only bunk, it's offensively bunk - offensive to the mind, history, and scripture. If, someone worshiped any of those things you list, if they allowed those things to rule their decisions and views and honored those things above God, then they would be wrong for that person to enjoy and would be their "Egypt", because they wouldn't have the faith for it - like you, I'm afraid.

But don't be silly. If you fear things, you are worshiping them too. If you fear anything over God, you are worshiping it. God alone can save and condemn, not works, not cultural things that didn't even exist before these past decades. Fear only the Lord and trust only in His promise of Grace and salvation by faith in His Son through said Grace. Lest the "law" and "works" become your "Egypt" Wade! Your place to run back to for comfort against the scary wilderness because you are incapable for trusting God's promise to save you if you but believe in Christ!

John 3:14-15 "14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

As Paul says

1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV) "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.

1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV) "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive.

Stop your fear mongering, for that is not of God. Jesus said He came to set us free, from exactly the mongering you are doing. How are we "free", how is it a "new" covenant if you live by the old law that already was? The law was there before Christ, so why did Christ come if the law was enough? Don't you remember Galatians chapter 3 where Paul mentions how the Promise came 430 years before the law? The promise of Grace. And Christ fulfilled and renewed that Promise. The law was a temporary covenant, and only to Israel - what of those who lived before the law, hmm?

Acts 15:10-11 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

and

Romans 3:22-24, 28 (NIV) 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

and

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV) 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Instead, focus like this:

1 Peter 2:15-17 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

because our works will be judged separately

1st Corinthians 3:10-15,21-23 (NIV) 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

let alone the consequences naturally in this life, as you reap what you sow!

So.. let go of your "Egypt", Wade. Let go of the chains and the comfort of the old covenant law, and start living anew, trusting in God's promise for once instead of trying to live on your own power. It isn't called Freedom for nothing, now is it? You suffocate in this manufactured, and unbiblical list. If you wish to live by it, that's your level of faith, but do not begin to presume imposing it on others who have the faith to be more free from slavery, by being slaves to Christ and Grace instead, than you.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The Egypt analogy is a perfect fit here. We are discussing a form of bondage.

 

[Wade Smith]

Oh you people. Wade, I can't believe you're making allusions to Egypt. Do you even know what Egypt was, or why the Israelites wanting to go back there was wrong? Egypt was slavery. Their wanting to go back was them not trusting God's promise, that's what was wrong. God promised them the "promised land", that He would take care of them, and instead, they wanted to comfort of the rule of the Egyptians to take care of them.

So, your analogy is not only bunk, it's offensively bunk - offensive to the mind, history, and scripture. If, someone worshiped any of those things you list, if they allowed those things to rule their decisions and views and honored those things above God, then they would be wrong for that person to enjoy and would be their "Egypt", because they wouldn't have the faith for it - like you, I'm afraid.

But don't be silly. If you fear things, you are worshiping them too. If you fear anything over God, you are worshiping it. God alone can save and condemn, not works, not cultural things that didn't even exist before these past decades. Fear only the Lord and trust only in His promise of Grace and salvation by faith in His Son through said Grace. Lest the "law" and "works" become your "Egypt" Wade! Your place to run back to for comfort against the scary wilderness because you are incapable for trusting God's promise to save you if you but believe in Christ!

John 3:14-15 "14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

As Paul says

1 Corinthians 6:12 (NIV) "Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything.

1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV) "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive.

Stop your fear mongering, for that is not of God. Jesus said He came to set us free, from exactly the mongering you are doing. How are we "free", how is it a "new" covenant if you live by the old law that already was? The law was there before Christ, so why did Christ come if the law was enough? Don't you remember Galatians chapter 3 where Paul mentions how the Promise came 430 years before the law? The promise of Grace. And Christ fulfilled and renewed that Promise. The law was a temporary covenant, and only to Israel - what of those who lived before the law, hmm?

Acts 15:10-11 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

and

Romans 3:22-24, 28 (NIV) 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

and

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV) 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Instead, focus like this:

1 Peter 2:15-17 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

because our works will be judged separately

1st Corinthians 3:10-15,21-23 (NIV) 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

let alone the consequences naturally in this life, as you reap what you sow!

So.. let go of your "Egypt", Wade. Let go of the chains and the comfort of the old covenant law, and start living anew, trusting in God's promise for once instead of trying to live on your own power. It isn't called Freedom for nothing, now is it? You suffocate in this manufactured, and unbiblical list. If you wish to live by it, that's your level of faith, but do not begin to presume imposing it on others who have the faith to be more free from slavery, by being slaves to Christ and Grace instead, than you.

Guy, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

You are not being "slaves to Christ", you are doing what Paul rebuked in Romans chapter 6, "Sinning that grace may abound."

Its an abomination, and quite frankly calls your salvation into question, which is why Paul Washer is absolutely right on in his preaching.

And of course, you don't really know what Grace is, because you pick and choose which verses you want to hear, and repeatedly ignore john and james who said, "Wait a minute, you MUST have good works and not evil, and if you continue in sin it proves you are not of God."

And it most certainly is not a matter of "my oppinion", as I have shown in the past that those games and books are indeed evil, based on the Bible.

The Bible tells us not to have anything to do with sorcery or wizards and things like that, thus it IS wrong.

Same goes for BlackSabb's association with that band and it's occult ties.

God has one law, and what is wrong for one person is wrong for everyone else.

And quit trying to pervert Paul's teaching as some excuse to live like the devil and call it "grace". That is a lie from hell and you know it.

1 John 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


The very definition of sin is dependent upon the law.

I already showed, from JESUS, and contrary to your reckless interpretation of the scriptures, that the New Covenant does not do away with God's standards of right and wrong. not in the least.

Yours is a false doctrine of hedonism which you use to falsely justify living any old lifestyle you choose, and filling your brain and spirit with any filth that comes down the pipe.


Grace is freedom FROM sin. Not freedom "to" sin.

That is why I say you don't know what you are talking about. If I am in Egypt regarding this matter, then bless God because its better than your "promised land". Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt and found out it isn't of God.

 

[SoundCard]

Guy, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

You are not being "slaves to Christ", you are doing what Paul rebuked in Romans chapter 6, "Sinning that grace may abound."

Its an abomination, and quite frankly calls your salvation into question, which is why Paul Washer is absolutely right on in his preaching.

And of course, you don't really know what Grace is, because you pick and choose which verses you want to hear, and repeatedly ignore john and james who said, "Wait a minute, you MUST have good works and not evil, and if you continue in sin it proves you are not of God."

And it most certainly is not a matter of "my oppinion", as I have shown in the past that those games and books are indeed evil, based on the Bible.

The Bible tells us not to have anything to do with sorcery or wizards and things like that, thus it IS wrong.

Same goes for BlackSabb's association with that band and it's occult ties.

God has one law, and what is wrong for one person is wrong for everyone else.

And quit trying to pervert Paul's teaching as some excuse to live like the devil and call it "grace". That is a lie from hell and you know it.

1 John 3:2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


The very definition of sin is dependent upon the law.

I already showed, from JESUS, and contrary to your reckless interpretation of the scriptures, that the New Covenant does not do away with God's standards of right and wrong. not in the least.

Yours is a false doctrine of hedonism which you use to falsely justify living any old lifestyle you choose, and filling your brain and spirit with any filth that comes down the pipe.


Grace is freedom FROM sin. Not freedom "to" sin.

That is why I say you don't know what you are talking about. If I am in Egypt regarding this matter, then bless God because its better than your "promised land". Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt and found out it isn't of God.

All he did was post scripture there, Mr. Smith. The perversion of Paul's teachings you're going on about is just posting of scripture. There is no condemnation of Christ. He's not advocating idol worship is he? He's not telling you to forsake God, to live in squalor and sexual immorality, is he? He's not saying "Oh, since Christ freed us, we're free to go out and have sex with everyone!" Far from it. He's saying, stop being so afraid of the things of this world, and see them for what they are. Things. They have no power over those in Christ unless you give them power over you.

 

[Wade Smith]

1 Corinthians 10:23 (NIV) "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive.

I get so sick and tired of people using this verse to justify hedonism.

Why don't you try reading the book of acts and as well the new testament.

With your twist on these scriptures, we could go around murdering one another or raping people, after all, "Everything" is permissible...

But you obviously would not murder someone, at least I hope not.

So why do you try to contort the word of God in some vain attempt to excuse blatant sin and rebellion against God?

Yeah. Learn to let scripture interpret scripture, or you people are headed for a heap of trouble.

If the law no longer exists, then Jesus was a liar, because he said it would never pass away until heaven and earth pass away. John would also be a liar, because he defined sin as "the transgression of the law". Then John also says, "If we sin (i.e.'transgress the law') we have an advocate with the Father".



You are half right, as I already said. The law was NEVER intended to Justify people. However, if you refuse to obey the law, that is the greatest evidence that you have never been saved in the first place.

Lets return to the issue of Matthe 18, which is basicly what started the whole Paul Washer thing. "Every tree is known by its fruit."

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(asv)Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

(Youngs) Law then do we make useless through the faith? let it not be! yea, we do establish law.

(amplified) Do we then by [this] faith make the Law of no effect, overthrow it or make it a dead letter? Certainly not! On the contrary, we confirm and establish and uphold the Law.

Another way of addressing this is so:
"Obedience is greater than sacrifice." (see 1 Samuel).

If a person lives like the devil its because they are a "child of the devil", i.e. "ye are of your father the devil and the works of your father you will do,", and regardless of what they may claim to believe.

 

[Floatingaxe]

They have the power to dilute you and hamper your growth in Christ if you aren't willing to give them up.

A Christian will never grow beyond the point of his disobedience.

 

[SoundCard]

They have the power to dilute you and hamper your growth in Christ if you aren't willing to give them up.

A Christian will never grow beyond the point of his disobedience.

Yes! That's the part of what I was trying to say. Of the music I listen to, of the games I play, the thing with all of them is, if God ever called me to stop listening or stop playing, I firmly believe I can do so. The thing is, I enjoy music, I enjoy the games, but I can live without them should I be called to do so. If they hamper my faith, I will be lead to stop listening to certain or even all kinds of music. If games affect my faith, I will be lead to stop playing. However, these things do not hurt my faith for me. They are of no consequence, and some of these things have helped me talk to others about God and Christ. They have become tools for spreading the good news. That's the entire point we're trying to make. If these things hamper you, if they lead you to sin, then by all means, give them up. But if they do not, then do not worry about it. If all those things Wade posted lead him to sin, then yes, he should abstain from them. But if they don't hamper my faith personally, then it falls under what Paul speaks of here:

Romans 14:1-4 NIV

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

It's also partly why Wade's accusations are ludacris. He's calling zerosaiayman's salvation into question, while he speaks of something that is entirely in line with what is spoken of in that scripture.

 

[SoundCard]

I don't give them power over me.

Hedonists do so, by participating in them. I used to be one, like you. Loved to justify anything with such petty excuses, "oh its just a t.v. show. Its just a song. Its just a game, etc."

But now I am "free from the fear of tomorrow, free from the guilt of the past." Why? because I REPENTED (which means to "turn away from sin") and believe the gospel.

Alcohol has no power over me whatsoever. I have never even tasted it, and have absolutely no desire to taste it in the least. By the grace of God, I will never taste the stuff, as the Bible clearly says that only a fool would.

But some of you regularly drink it. Therefore who is under bondage to it?

You of course, not me.

You are "deceived thereby," but, being deceived, you do not believe you are deceived. You say, "I can handle it," and then quote a few Pauline verses out of context to try to justify it, as you do so many "little things". But "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."

How can you be such hypocrites as to justify the occult and such like, and attempt to use Paul to do it? you three are ridiculous.

"Oh, everything's permissible, Paul said we can do whatever we want to do..."

Wow. James and John didn't get the memo.

It's funny. You show me how much you speak about stuff you don't fully understand. You gloat because you never drank in your life, well Wade, neither have I. And like you, I'm not compelled to drink it. I don't think a small glass of wine with dinner for health reasons is wrong by any means, it's even encouraged, research shows it can improve heart function, but I still don't drink it. I don't condemn others that do, I disprove if it is in excess, but I don't condemn them for it, they need help certainly. But you're so quick to come to these conclusions, accusing other people, judging their hearts so fully when you know little about us.

Stop condemning BlackSabb, stop condemning me! For one who claims to be so free, you're so shackled in your own pride over how you abstain from it all, you freely dole out sentences over who's misguided and who's taken what out of context.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Dude, did you ignore the scriptures I posted? Don't you see that my posts are almost all the bible? You aren't arguing against me, you are arguing against God. Shall we look again, oh, I think we shall! Let's go to scripture, not empty human words, shall we!

Romans 4:13-14 (NIV) 13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Acts 13:38-39 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

Eph 2:14 - 15 (NIV) 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Col 2:13 - 17 (NIV) 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Romans 10:3-4 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-25 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 8:2-4 (NIV) 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Romans 5:20-21 20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV) 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 6:11-14 11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

And the clincher:

Romans 8:1 (NIV) Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Do you not remember what Jesus said, Wade?

John 14:6 (NIV) Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

John 11:25-26 (NIV) 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

John 6:32-40 (NIV) 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 3:14-18 "14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

Do you not remember what the bible says is required for salvation?

Romans 10:9-11 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Acts 16:30-31 (NIV) 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

1st John 5:10-12 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Ephesians 1:13-14 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 2:4-10 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And then, once more, because you seem utterly blind to what I post:

1st Corinthians 3:10-15,21-23 (NIV) 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Mmm, so what does the scripture say, Wade? What does it say, tell me! This is nothing of myself, nothing I am making up, I'm only posting scripture and scripture is what says "BELIEVE and you will be saved", and it isn't believe in the law, for the law already was, but believe in Christ! Scripture is what says "Christ is the end of the law"! Not I, scripture! So, who is it your beef is with? It isn't me, I'll tell you that. Complain to God for making salvatoin different than what you think!

Romans 4:1-8 (NIV) 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

As for the Egypt analogy, FloatingAxe, oh yes, any form of bondage is slavery - but something has to be a form of bondage first, and nothing in this world is bondage unless you put it above God in your life - nothing is inherently so, its your actions to start thinking it has power over your life instead of God for good or ill. God alone is sovereign. So then, the law can be a form of bondage too, if you worship it above God and trample underfoot the Son and the Spirit of Grace. Christ called us to Him, not to the law, which was already there. Why did Christ come if the law was sufficient, it never was!

Galatians 2:19-21 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

Remember, everyone, we are talking about Salvation alone here, what it takes and means to be saved. The bible is absolutely clear on this matter, there is no room for your FUD, Wade.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

However, as for living the Christian life, which will be judged in a totally different way for different rewards, shall we not remember that we are to avoid sin and do what is right? And what is right?

Luke 10:27 (NIV) He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Romans 13:8-10 (NIV) 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Avoiding video games is not what is right, nor can that please God. Avoiding music is not what is right, nor can that please God. You might as well avoid all man made things, that includes chairs, technology, electricity, plumbing, anything creative or useful God gave Man the skill, ingenuity, and God-like love for creation to be able to create.
Loving God above all else with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength, that alone can please God. If we love Him first, that means we give our first fruits in time and talent and resources to Him. But loving God does not mean spurning the rest of the blessings and joys He fills this world with, that disses God.
And what else pleases God? Loving your neighbor as yourself! You certainly do not do that, Wade. You preach the opposite, you preach abandoning your neighbor because he is somehow "unclean" in your eyes. You are the one preaching against the Gospel, Wade.
When should you avoid video games? When they become more important in your view than God; when they try to take away your love for God, break him down to mean nothing and make you love them; when they define what is right and wrong; or when you give them the power over your life to determine your fate - ala, saying that playing them will condemn you, when only God can condemn. When should you avoid music? Food? People? The same criteria applies: Ask if the thing in your life makes you break one of the two commandments Christ gave, and if it does, either one of them or both, then you should cut it from your life!

But there is nothing on this planet, nothing in all heaven and earth, nothing that is greater than God, whom is sovereign and mighty to save.

John 10:25-30 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

So remember:

1 Peter 2:15-17 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

And Paul Washer?

Paul Washer is absolutely a false teacher I say this because he says things that are word for word opposite what the bible says, many times. How often does he quote scripture? Very rarely! He uses Pathos, not reason and not the scripture, to try to mold the world to his version of Christianity. He doesn't spread the Good News, he doesn't spread Hope, he doesn't spread Reconiliation and Redemption, and he definitey does not spread Love. He spreads fear, he spreads servitude to his norms and values, with little to no backing from scripture, or even against scripture! That is the definition of a false teacher, who tramples Christ underfoot. I pray for him, for he has fallen under a false doctrine that binds him away from Christ's Grace, for:

Galatians 5:4-5 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

Tell me Wade, how do you reconcile your false view with all these verses, let alone the one directly above?

 

[Wade Smith]

BlackSabb has demanded that I no longer post on this thread and has reported me ot the mods to be banned again, so I may as well respond again before I get banned, since I am here being accused of being a false teacher.

However, as for living the Christian life, which will be judged in a totally different way for different rewards, shall we not remember that we are to avoid sin and do what is right? And what is right?

Luke 10:27 (NIV) He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Romans 13:8-10 (NIV) 8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

If "love" does not keep the actual laws given by God, then it is not "biblical" love, it is "lust" diquised as love, which the world has loads of.

Avoiding video games is not what is right, nor can that please God. Avoiding music is not what is right, nor can that please God. You might as well avoid all man made things, that includes chairs, technology, electricity, plumbing, anything creative or useful God gave Man the skill, ingenuity, and God-like love for creation to be able to create.

With your logic, idolatry would not be a sin. With your logic, it was "ok" for people to make groves and idols and things, after all, "God gave man the creativity and skill, it mujst be 'ok'."

There is a difference between a chair and game or book that is filled with the occult. You have simply tried ot make a strawman, and have totally mssed the point. A chair is a neutral tool (assuming it is not engraved with some form of idolatry of devil worship). A game or book or movie or song that is filled with the occult is CLEARLY of the devil and has but one purpose, which is to desensitize you to sin and seperate you from God.

There is a difference between grape juice, and something that verifiably destroys brain and liver cells, and is responsible for death of thousands of people each year. Which verifiably "impairs" you, lowering your intelligence and decision making ability, after just one drink, and this according even to secular studies, much less the fact the Bible forbids it.

There is a difference between a television news broadcast, and watching a movie about murder and mayhem, which indeed even glorifies it and turns it into entertainment.

I don't think I should have to go on about this, but it is a shame that you draw no distinction between "tools and technology" as compared to things that are ALREADY dedicated to the promotion of that which is "sin, the flesh, and the devil".

Loving God above all else with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength, that alone can please God. If we love Him first, that means we give our first fruits in time and talent and resources to Him. But loving God does not mean spurning the rest of the blessings and joys He fills this world with, that disses God.

I never said that. You THINK that is what I said.

But listening to Black Sabbath, or all this other filth is NOT "loving the Lord with all your mind." Wow. You fill your mind with something that glorifies satan and is nothing but witchcraft and sexual perversion, and you call that "Glorifying hte Lord"? Is not that the doctrine of the Nicolaitaines?

And what else pleases God? Loving your neighbor as yourself! You certainly do not do that, Wade. You preach the opposite, you preach abandoning your neighbor because he is somehow "unclean" in your eyes. You are the one preaching against the Gospel, Wade.

No I am not. I QUOTED THE BIBLE. Which says to "come out from among them and have nothing to do with them."

I never said not to preach to people. YOu made that up and put words in my mouth, again.

I said that we preach the gospel of JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED to people. But if they will not "repent and believe the gospel" we are to have nothing to do wth them. Paul said so, "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers," etc.

You want to quote all the "feel good" verses, half of which you use out of context, but then totally ignore the verses on holiness and seperation. Doesn't work that way. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

I don't feel the need to re-quote all the relevant verses, as I have already done so 2 or 3 times anyway, though there are others.

When should you avoid video games? When they become more important in your view than God; when they try to take away your love for God, break him down to mean nothing and make you love them; when they define what is right and wrong; or when you give them the power over your life to determine your fate - ala, saying that playing them will condemn you, when only God can condemn. When should you avoid music? Food? People? The same criteria applies: Ask if the thing in your life makes you break one of the two commandments Christ gave, and if it does, either one of them or both, then you should cut it from your life!

First of all, Christ gave more than two commandments, you simply ignore the others, as I have already quoted those on this thread as well. But you ignore them. Christ told the man to keep ALL the commandments, and started quoting the "Ten Commandments". He did not just give "two commandments". Thus, once again, you are picking and choosing what you want to believe, instead of the whole counsel of God.

Secondly, "when they become more important than God," applies to anything.

But the fact is, most of these things are glorifying the occult and sexual immorality and murder, which are ALWAYS wrong, no matter what. It seperates you from God from the very beginning. So why can't you see that? How is it pleasing for God for us to play these games or watch such movies and television shows? It is not. It is a complete and utter abomination.

But there is nothing on this planet, nothing in all heaven and earth, nothing that is greater than God, whom is sovereign and mighty to save.

John 10:25-30 25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

There is one thing, and that is yourself. And believing that you can "sin that grace may abound," is where it starts.

Read about Saul in the Old Testament. Had one of the most graphic and clear conversion experiences recorded in the Bible, and the Bible says the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and he was changed into a new man, and he prophesied by the Holy Spirit, but he died lost and demon possessed. Why? Because "Obedience is greater than sacrifice." He figured he could sin all he wanted, and make a sacrifice, and it was "ok". But it wasn't. The Spirit of God left him and a demon took him over.

So remember:

1 Peter 2:15-17 15For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. 16Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. 17Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

Hey, I haven't used my freedom as a coverup for evil. In fact, you guys have, since you promote and defend doing things that either directly or indirectly promote and glorify sinful behavior.

I even alluded to just how bad some of my sins were which I have repented of, which I can verifiably trace and connect to these things you guys consider "innocent". I can promise you I've probably done worse things than most anyone who is in this discussion. Pick a letter of the alphabet and think of a sin that starts with that letter, and in all likelihood I've done it, with very few exceptions; but its under the blood of Jesus.

I am not, nor ever have been preaching that you can somehow justify yourself by keeping the law. I never said that.

And Paul Washer?

Paul Washer is absolutely a false teacher I say this because he says things that are word for word opposite what the bible says, many times. How often does he quote scripture? Very rarely! He uses Pathos, not reason and not the scripture, to try to mold the world to his version of Christianity. He doesn't spread the Good News, he doesn't spread Hope, he doesn't spread Reconiliation and Redemption, and he definitey does not spread Love. He spreads fear, he spreads servitude to his norms and values, with little to no backing from scripture, or even against scripture! That is the definition of a false teacher, who tramples Christ underfoot. I pray for him, for he has fallen under a false doctrine that binds him away from Christ's Grace, for:

With this statement against Paul Washer, even Jesus Christ in him; you show yourself to have little knowledge of the One True God who sent Jesus to die on the Cross.

Paul Washer does not spread a false gospel. He spreads the exact same message Jesus and the apostles preach. "Deny yourself and take up the cross daily and follow me," is not a mere intellectual agreement with the fact that Jesus was God and died on the cross.



You want to call him a false teacher, show us all what he has said that makes him a false teacher. In several of his most controversial sermons, he LITERALLY is doing nothing but reading a Bible passage, THE WORDS OF CHRIST, and asking the congregation if they live up to it, and you call that a fasle doctrine? Get real.

Galatians 5:4-5

4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope.

Tell me Wade, how do you reconcile your false view with all these verses, let alone the one directly above?

First of all, I NEVER said ANYONE was justified by the law. Not ever. Once again, YOU falsely accuse me of having said that.

Secondly, you quote all verses, and yet you do it to defend an unscriptural stance, i.e. "License to sin." You do not believe it is unscriptural, and yet you pick and choose which verses to believe. JESUS said to "Keep the commandments" and he did not simply quote the "Two" that you have tried to present out of context. He quoted the OLD TESTAMENT commandments.

This is why I find this doctrine that you guys are adhering to as being full of hypocrissy and even malice. You refuse the whole counsel of God as an excuse to live however you want to live.

 

[Wade Smith]

Yes! That's the part of what I was trying to say. Of the music I listen to, of the games I play, the thing with all of them is, if God ever called me to stop listening or stop playing, I firmly believe I can do so. The thing is, I enjoy music, I enjoy the games, but I can live without them should I be called to do so. If they hamper my faith, I will be lead to stop listening to certain or even all kinds of music. If games affect my faith, I will be lead to stop playing. However, these things do not hurt my faith for me. They are of no consequence, and some of these things have helped me talk to others about God and Christ. They have become tools for spreading the good news.

Oh yeah, what Gospel are you preaching?

The witchcraft gospel? The murder gospel? How about the adultery gospel? The Jedi gospel, with its false temples and false 'god' known as the force? Lets be perverts for Chirst eh?

Yes, lets preach "Christ" to someone while we play a game that is wholly given over to demonism and idolatry and whatever.

Jesus rebuked this attitude in the letters to the seven churches, i.e. "eating things sacrificed to idols."

That's the entire point we're trying to make. If these things hamper you, if they lead you to sin, then by all means, give them up. But if they do not, then do not worry about it. If all those things Wade posted lead him to sin,

They did not "lead me to sin".

They ARE sinful in and of themselves, whether you do it one time, or one hundred times.

That is what you simply refuse to see and admit.

then yes, he should abstain from them. But if they don't hamper my faith personally, then it falls under what Paul speaks of here:

They do hamper your faith personally, you just don't see it because you've been doing it for so long you have seared your conscience to it.

Romans 14:1-4 NIV

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

It's also partly why Wade's accusations are ludacris. He's calling zerosaiayman's salvation into question, while he speaks of something that is entirely in line with what is spoken of in that scripture.

Hey, Zerosaiayman called my salvation into question, and also called Paul Washer and me as false teachers, and by implication would also be calling floatingaxe and nadiine false teachers since they sided with Washer, etc.

My faith is not weak. But of course you THINK my faith is weak, because you do not understand what you have read, ignoring other parts of the Bible in favour of what makes you feel good.


This is the great deception. You "sin that grace may abound," and call it "faith," becaue you read "justified by faith without the deeds of the law," and pretty much just throw out any standard of right or wrong, in spite of the fact that the vast majority of hte Bible, including the New Testament, is about rules and laws and standards of what is right and wrong.

 

[Wade Smith]

You guys idea of being a Christian:

Jesus died for us, so its all good.

Its wrong to murder, we admit it. But its "ok" to pretend to be a murderer and fill our heads with it from song or movie or game.

Its wrong to commit sexual immorality, but its ok to fill our heads with it from song or movie or game.

Its wrong to be a witch or other pagan/occult, but we can pretend to be one or fill our heads with it from a movie or song or game.

Its wrong to worship idols, but we can pretend to in books or movies or games.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Hey guys~

Music was created by God FOR God--for His worship. Satan was the archangel in charge of heavenly worship. When he rebelled, he STOLE music and the worship of God and made it to worship himself! Can't you see that?

Unless music glorifies God and not man, or any other carnal thing--even love--then it glorifies Satan himself. He uses it to steal worship from God.

One really hurts his walk with God and hurts the heart of God to fill one's mind (and heart) with images, impressions and desires resulting from secular music. Satan's goal is to steal, kill amd destroy. He does it through music. Don't scoff--he does it well.

 

[Wade Smith]

You want to accuse Paul Washer of teaching false doctrine, well bring the evidence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J471VobaZks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y81hGYpN6mY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6XJkNlAk9c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBiVNpZ4E1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAqK2CsOOSA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ1BaClAQMg&NR=1

 

[kellyc]

does everything have to be so black and white? as in 'if it's not worship music it's of satan'?

 

[Wade Smith]

does everything have to be so black and white? as in 'if it's not worship music it's of satan'?

I don't recall saying that either, I suppose there are things like classical music, and whatever that are not really what anyone would call "worship," and are not sin in and of themselves.

I will just say here, consider these verses, which I have already mentioned.

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

"To know to do good and do it not is sin."

But my stance here, is this.

When you are listening to a song or watching a movie or playing a game, or pretty much anything else, ask your self this question (and ask the Lord in prayer):

"Is there any Biblical reason to believe Jesus would participate in this activity? Is this something Jesus is pleased with me doing, or is he ashamed of this?"


Anything can be an idol if you are addicted to it or it in any way hinders your walk with God, no matter how "good" it may be in and of itself. I think everyone on this thread seems to agree with this statement, but so what? Even atheists, and certainly pagans, would pretty much recognize that simple truth.


Bt why would anyone want to fill themself with that which glorifies "sin, the flesh, and the devil"?

I am not making these statements as a "pharisee" who is somehow trying to falsely claim he never did them, "Oh God I thank you that I am not as other men are..."

Not at all. I have freely confessed the fact that I did these things and worse, it is not a matter of self righteousness, it is a matter of true holiness and submission to Jesus Christ.

If we believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sin, why then do we try to "brink" the definition of sin?

Do we want to be Christ-like? Or do we want to be "sort of" like Christ?

I used to be content with "sort of" like Christ. Now I am determined that God must reveal and root out every remote trace of sin out of my life, immediately and permanently and unconditionally, "By his stripes ye were healed."

romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


con⋅form 
1.to act in accordance or harmony; comply (usually fol. by to): to conform to rules. 2.to act in accord with the prevailing standards, attitudes, practices, etc., of society or a group: One has to conform in order to succeed in this company. 3.to be or become similar in form, nature, or character.4.to be in harmony or accord.5.to comply with the usages of an established church, esp. the Church of England.–verb (used with object) 6.to make similar in form, nature, or character.7.to bring into agreement, correspondence, or harmony.–adjective 8.Archaic. conformable.


I mean, here is a wonder. Paul says not to be conformed to the world. i.e. don't look like the world, don't act like the world, don't talk like them, etc. and yet here we have people telling us that we ought to take occasion to use music and games and books that promote lasciviousness, and somehow this "opens up a door of ministry". No, it opened up a door to present a "santa claus" version of Jesus, which is what everyone wants to hear.

Paul said don't conform to the world, but rather be transformed (changed, different, etc).

In another place, Paul says to be conformed to Jesus death.

Phillipians 3:9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.



Now let me ask the reader (every reader) something right here. Maybe I just do such a poor job of explaining my position on this matter, so don't take my word for it. "Search the scriptures whether it is so."

Pray that prayer that Paul just demonstrated, "That I may know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death. if by any means I might attain..."

You pray that in the name of Jesus, and mean it, and you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about.

How can we take the Cross of Christ so lightly that we just look for loopholes and excuses to do things?

Lev. 21:17Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. 18For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous

Now this is a physical type of the deeper spiritual truth. If there was anything whatsoever wrong with the person, they were not to make an offering to God. (Obedience is greater than sacrifice.)

Paul says something that is quite telling here. The New Covenant is actually stricter, and with sorer punishment, than the Old!

Hebrews 10:22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[kellyc]

i wasn't talking about you wade. something not of faith being sin is not referring to an ordinary activity (like fishing perhaps, or driving). i am not sure where the zeal in prosecuting a fellow christian for not agreeing with a small point comes from. human nature perhaps. that was not about anyone in particular, just the tone of this whole forum is sometimes so persecuting.