Why do you all adore Paul Washer??

[zerosaiyaman]

Jesus did not hang around with sinners. He was falsely accused of being a drunk and glutton and of keeping company with sinners, but when you actually read the context, he was not keeping company with sinners at all, and he was not a glutton either, because he fasted several times in the Bible, including in the story of the woman at the well.

He often went apart with just the twelve disciples, or with the three. We do not see Jesus "hanging around" with sinners. IN fact, even in the case of the woman at the well, the first thing he did was rebuke her, and rather sharply. "You have five husbands and your shacked up with another man..." and "Woman, you don't even know what you worship." And then he didn't just "befriend her" as she was, she had to REPENT, and if she had not, he would have moved on, as he did at Capernaum and elsewhere.

Had to add one thing, you are absolutely wrong there, absolutely. Let's look what scripture actually says.

Matthew 9:9-13 9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. 10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
[This passage is also in Mark and Luke]

Wow, Wade, that directly contradicts you. Christ did have dinner with sinners and tax collectors, those were the people he hung around with, not the Pharisees, who were the "religious" people, as you would also have us be. In fact, Christ has this huge list of woes unto the pharisees, and they were the keepers of the law, obsessed about it!

Matthew 21:32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the taxcollectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."

Luke 15:1-7 1Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." 3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

 

[Wade Smith]

Truth of scripture? You're the one ignoring scripture, Wade, flat out. Did you not see where in 1st John 3:18-25 it expressly says what the command we are to keep is, that is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and love one another? Did you not see that? Nothing else is stated, just that. Furthermore:

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

1 John 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Galatians 3:23-25 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Philippians 3:8-9 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 2:19-21 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!

What do all these verses have in common, Wade? That salvation, righteousness, is only through belief, not through works - otherwise Christ died for nothing. Can you get any clearer than Ephesians, than Galatians, than the bible in total? You are adding and making stuff up. Never is it written that salvation is through works, NEVER. Faith without works is dead, but that doesn't mean you are going to hell to have dead faith, does it? It doesn't say that, now does it? Dead faith will rob you of God's power in your life, and you'll have to deal with the consequences your actions bring. But, I believe that if one has faith in Christ, Christ through them will do deeds, no matter that person's intent, as I have seen many times play out through other people. Christ will do the work if one has faith, so the whole issue is moot.

Let's check out what Jesus says!

John 3:16-18 "16For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

John 6:32-40 32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 11:25-26 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Wow, and Jesus too says salvation is through belief in Him, that it is the Father's will that that is how you are saved and not by works, that's why He came in the first place! You are calling Christ himself a liar, my friend. If you won't believe in Him, then you have to follow the law perfectly like He did, you must be even more perfect than the pharisees, something not you nor anyone else can do - but only Christ Himself, only Him. Your righteous deeds are nothing but filthy rags to God, if you do them outside of Christ, as Isaiah clearly states.

So, unless you think you are equal to Christ, God Himself, I'm afraid you're screwed if you try to live by the law, as the Word plainly states : ).

Acts 15:10-11 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

That seems to be what you are doing, testing God.

Acts 13:38-39 38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

Nope, can't get clearer than that. Sorry, Wade, but I live only by the scriptures, and they are utterly, completely, and absolutely clear on this matter.

Hey, I never said salvation was in the law.

But if a person is saved, they DO keep the law. Paul said so, and Jesus and John both said that if a person does not keep the commandments, ALL OF THEM, they are not a true believer.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Then Jesus began listing all of the ten commandments that deal with outward activity, and also the levitical commandment.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And so on. Thus "License to sin" is a false doctrine.

You are right in one thing, salvation does not come through the law. But if a person lives a lifestyle of not keeping the commandments, they are not saved, no matter what they profess to believe.


On the other issue, I've made three posts on why seperation from the world is Biblical, and being a "mixed multitude" is not.


And by the way, I am by no means arrogant. If actually believing and obeying Christs commandments, and those of the apostles, found in the Bible, that makes you view me as "Arrogant", then the error is with you.

I have repented of my sins and I die daily with Christ, and there is nothing in me worthy of anything that I have ever received from God. My prayer is "God have mercy on me a sinner," and I despise myself.

When Christ gets hold of you for real, you can't help but weep for the filthiness of your sins and cry out to God, and you can't help but lay on the floor and cry for the lost of this world, and even the other believers.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

The scripture states if a person believes in Christ they are saved. Never does it say if they continue to sin they are not saved, but only that if they don't believe they are not saved. How hard is that to read, when it's stated clearly in 1st John and all over in those verses I gave?

Also, I'd like to point out how you misuse scripture, for instance, the end of your post before this one, let's look at a few more verse from 2nd John before the one in your post:

2nd John 1:7-10 7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

That really changes the context, now doesn't it? In fact, it includes anyone who preaches the law and not Christ.

 

[Wade Smith]

The scripture states if a person believes in Christ they are saved. Never does it say if they continue to sin they are not saved,

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Lets see, they made a profession of faith, saying, "i know him," yet they did not keep the commandments. John says such a person is a liar and the Truth (which is Jesus) is not in him.

1 John 1:

6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:




1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


Seperation

2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



james 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Implied answer = "No".

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

We see that simply "believing" God was not enough. The works were evidence that Abraham actually did believe. Thus a person who claims to believe, but has not the works, is not a true Christian. "Every tree is known by its fruit" Matt. 18.

but only that if they don't believe they are not saved. How hard is that to read, when it's stated clearly in 1st John and all over in those verses I gave?

Also, I'd like to point out how you misuse scripture, for instance, the end of your post before this one, let's look at a few more verse from 2nd John before the one in your post:

2nd John 1:7-10 7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

That really changes the context, now doesn't it? In fact, it includes anyone who preaches the law and not Christ.

Where do you get that ridiculous statement?

Christ himself said that he did not come to destroy the law, but rather to fulfill it, and further, Christ said that until heaven and earth pass away neither a jot nor tittle would in any wise pass from the Law.


You seem to be confusing the issue. Works are the evidence. Faith is the motivator. Works in and of themself cannot save anyone. But faith in and of itself does not save anyone either (see James.)

I stand by my statments earlier. License to sin is a lie from the devil.

"Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?"

Living in willful sin is the clearest sign there is that a person is not a real Christian.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Ohhh, ok, one last thing and I'll be through, I promise XD.

Here's something else you should read, Wade.

Luke 18:9-14 9To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'13"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14"I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

That's a pretty powerful statement against your view, once again.

 

[zerosaiyaman]

Christ himself said that he did not come to destroy the law, but rather to fulfill it, and further, Christ said that until heaven and earth pass away neither a jot nor tittle would in any wise pass from the Law.

Um, that isn't in the bible. But this is:

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

"everything is accomplished" one can argue is Christ's sacrifice on the cross, which is why:

Eph 2:14 - 15 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

Col 2:13 - 17 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

and:

Romans 10:3-4 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Now, realize we are still to fight sin, but the point I've been making is that salvation is through belief in Christ alone, as Christ himself says, as those myriads of verses say.

The fact of the matter is, you are a sinner no less than I, even now, after salvation. And salvation is once and for all. See:

1st John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1st John 2:1-2 1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Salvation is through Jesus Christ and Him alone, not by works, period. If one is saved, we will still sin, but God will discipline us, and purify us of all unrighteousness. He will guide us, and do good works through us which He has already prepared for us to do. This is why I so staunchly oppose your view, for it is dangerously wrong. You cannot judge another person's servant, you cannot know if someone is saved or not, and it is supreme arrogance to think you can. We can discern only so much, but only God knows the heart.

So, separating ourselves from the world not only damages the gospel and our testimony, it does not help the poor, or the hurting, or fulfill our role to love.

 

[BlackSabb]

You do not understand, that much is clear. Because nowhere in the Bible do you see any apostle behave the way BlackSabb and the whole "seeker sensitive" movement behaves. This movement is a lie from the devil.

And this is exactly what I'm talking about folks!! The sheer gall and nerve to state publicly those words. And how do I exactly "behave?" How do you know anything about me? All you know about me is that I'm a poster called BlackSabb, who obviously loves Black Sabbath. You don't know a single other thing than that about me, and yet you have the sheer audacity to cast your unrighteous and unholy judgement against me, claiming to have some knowledge of me, when you state that I "behave" in some particular manner.

Exactly how do I "behave?" Come on, you've said it publicly for all to see, so I want to know. Tell everyone here publicly what things I do that "no apostle" does like me.


Maybe you should consider retracting that comment, because it's downright slander and defamation.

And for the record buddy. I rarely drink and when I do it's strictly in moderation, I don't smoke, I've never done drugs, never been in trouble with the law except for parking fines and a couple of speeding fines, I rarely go out to pubs and clubs except for work functions.

I'm sorry to say buddy but I have found people like Paul Washer and yourself very prone to making judgements such as you have done. Is this what you consider good "fruit?"

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

But just because YOU do not approve of the things you post about, far be it from you to be the better man to judge all of us as in the wrong!

Exactly what I was thinking Sound Card. And what exactly is the "world?" It's the definition that Wade Smith says it is.

Now, for sure, the Bible speaks of gluttony, drunkedness, sexual immorality etc. We can all agree on that anyone engaging in these things is partaking of the world. For eg, going to a strip club, getting drunk, getting high, vandalising, getting into fights etc.

But Wade Smith, sorry to burst your little bubble, anything else is your interpretation only. If I don't go out on a Friday night to a seedy club, but stay at home with my wife and listen to a couple of AC/DC albums, that's your personal interpretation only of being "worldly". You don't define worldliness to me.

Apart from the obvious immorality that the Bible defines as sinful and worldly, anything else is open to at least debate. You are not God Wade. Just because you say something is "worldly" that is not directly spoken in the Bible, doesn't make it so.

So, now that you've defamed me as unGodly because of my "behaviour", share with everyone here exactly what those behaviours are.

 

[Wade Smith]

Had to add one thing, you are absolutely wrong there, absolutely. Let's look what scripture actually says.

Matthew 9:9-13 9As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him. 10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" 12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
[This passage is also in Mark and Luke]

Wow, Wade, that directly contradicts you.

No it doesn't. If you actually LOOK at the very verse you are quoting, it pharisees are falsely accusing Jesus' DISCIPLES of being sinners. The text in your Bible version even has "sinners" in quotations to emphasize the fact that it is a false accusation.

Jesus did come to call sinners, but first, get a Bible version that does not ommit the end of the sentence.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Moreover, Jesus did not "hang around" with sinners. He preached to them, and then left.

Christ did have dinner with sinners and tax collectors, those were the people he hung around with, not the Pharisees, who were the "religious" people, as you would also have us be. In fact, Christ has this huge list of woes unto the pharisees, and they were the keepers of the law, obsessed about it!

I never said anything about people being religious. That is again you falsely putting words in my mouth. You do realized bearing false witness is a sin, hopefully.

Matthew 21:32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the taxcollectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."

Luke 15:1-7 1Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them." 3Then Jesus told them this parable: 4"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

The tax collectors and prostitutes repented and quit doing what they were doing. And 1 sheep that was lost was found.

So you really don't understand the verses. In the parable when the Lord sends everyone out into the highways to go find people to come to the feast, the harlots came but they REPENTED and quit sinning.

So you really just do not understand what I or Paul Washer or people like him are saying.

You just take a handful of Paul's statements and use them as an excuse to live any old lifestyle you want.


I never said that people shouldn't preach to sinners. You falsely accused me of that.

But Paul clearly said not to have fellowship with unbelievers.

"Fellowship" and "witnessing" are two very different things.

"Fellowship" implies close relationship, i.e. "friendship".

"Witnessing" implies preaching to someone, and really means being a martyr.


fel⋅low⋅ship 
1.the condition or relation of being a fellow: the fellowship of humankind. 2.friendly relationship; companionship: the fellowship of father and son. 3.community of interest, feeling, etc.4.communion, as between members of the same church.5.friendliness. 6.an association of persons having similar tastes, interests, etc.7.a company, guild, or corporation.8.Education. a.the body of fellows in a college or university.b.the position or emoluments of a fellow of a college or university, or the sum of money he or she receives.c.a foundation for the maintenance of a fellow in a college or university.–verb (used with object) 9.to admit to fellowship, esp. religious fellowship.–verb (used without object) 10.to join in fellowship, esp. religious fellowship.

wit⋅ness 
–verb (used with object) 1.to see, hear, or know by personal presence and perception: to witness an accident. 2.to be present at (an occurrence) as a formal witness, spectator, bystander, etc.: She witnessed our wedding. 3.to bear witness to; testify to; give or afford evidence of

 

[Wade Smith]

And this is exactly what I'm talking about folks!! The sheer gall and nerve to state publicly those words. And how do I exactly "behave?" How do you know anything about me?

I know by your doctrine on this and other threads.

Lets take this one. the fact that you have links and avatars for things which are very much shameful to the testimony of Christ. Though I know you have already been adressed on that and other matters, and simply blew that off too, called that person "legalistic" and "Judgemental" or some such rubbish too.

You can try to pretend that such things don't matter, but they clearly do matter. Such as in the threads where you have been constantly found justifying people doing things which clearly contradict Biblical commandment and traditional Christian values. in both this forum and the baptist forum.

I do not feel the need to quote all the ones I've seen, or even one of them, this is an open forum and anyone interested in the truth can search for threads which you have participated in.

As someone has already said on this thread, you validate Paul Washer's sermons.

But Wade Smith, sorry to burst your little bubble, anything else is your interpretation only. If I don't go out on a Friday night to a seedy club, but stay at home with my wife and listen to a couple of AC/DC albums, that's your personal interpretation only of being "worldly". You don't define worldliness to me.

Apart from the obvious immorality that the Bible defines as sinful and worldly, anything else is open to at least debate. You are not God Wade. Just because you say something is "worldly" that is not directly spoken in the Bible, doesn't make it so.

So, now that you've defamed me as unGodly because of my "behaviour", share with everyone here exactly what those behaviours are.

So you don't have any problem with listening to music and watching movies or playing games (for those who are gamers)that glorify all the sins the Bible tells us not to partake of?

I find that completely ridiculous and just completely lacking in sincerity.

There is a word in the Bible called "concupiscence" which is another translation for "epithumia", which means "a longing for what is forbidden".

Summary of what you seem to believe:

"Its wrong to 'Sin,' but its only a sin if I believe its a sin, and its ok to watch/listen to other people glorify sin. Moreover, we ought to be buddies with sinners and hang around with them all the time, even though they show no sign of repenting or even caring about God."

 

[brinny]

Hi everyone. I noticed the thread on Joel Osteen, and the discussion turned to Paul Washer as a contrast to Mr Osteen.

Most of us agree about the essence of televangelism-wealth and health and feel good doctrine. There seems to be general consensus that the gospel of the likes of Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland etc is shallow and distorted.

However, I noticed that the lot of you had nothing but praise and adoration for the sermon of Paul Washer, as a contrast to Joel Osteen. The general consensus is that his gospel is the true gospel of Jesus, and that his message is straight to the point, uncompromising, Godly. Here is a very long youtube video of him:



http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8



Well, you all may be smitten by this man, but I am disgusted!!! He is just as shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen and other American televangeslists-simply in the other direction.

It's obvious from listening to him, that Paul Washer's brand of Christianity is just as woeful and superficial. According to Mr Washer, if you don't dress like the "world", listen to the same music as the "world", watch the same things as the "world" etc, then you're a true Christian. If you go to church regularly, pay your tithes, do all the necessary obligations and don't frequent pubs and clubs, don't listen to secular music, watch secular tv and theatre, read secular books etc, then you're a true follower.

I think that his brand of Christianity is pathetic. It may have impressed many of you, but it didn't impress me. I know from personal experience, that many of the outward ultra conservative Christians (and I do stress-OUTWARD) that I've been involved in, (who don't listen to "worldly" music, watch "worldly tv etc) have been the most rude, unkind, unloving, ungrateful, lying people I've ever seen. I should know. I had one fellow church goer once borrow money from me and refuse to pay me back. But outworldly he was faultless. He didn't engage in any secular activity. Paul Washer would have loved him.

Who does this guy think he's kidding? According to Mr Washer, all you need is a checklist from Jesus to make it to Heaven. I can imagine the day of judgement from Jesus according to Paul Washer. All Jesus has to do is go look around your house, with a notebook, ticking items off:


*Jesus speaking*




"Okay, let's look around John Doe's house"


"DVD collection. No secular movies, all Christian movies.

"Music collection. No rock/secular music. Hymns and classical.

"Clothing. No revealing outfits.

"Prayer and reading the word time. Let's see, John Doe lived for 50 years, and became a Christian at 40. He spent about 1800 hrs of prayer and reading my word for 10 years, that's about 30mins of prayer/reading a day.

"Kitchen cupboads. No alcohol. Excellent.

"Well, I'm done. John Doe, welcome to Heaven".



This is about the extent of Paul Washer's version of Christianity. He doesn't address at all the heart of man, what is in the depths of him. He doesn't even consider what motivates a person, or the circumstances that the individual went through. His brand of Christianity is puritanism. Don't listen to worldly music, don't watch worldly television, don't go to pubs and clubs, go to church, pay your tithe and do your obligatory Bible reading each day.

And now you're a Christian. The worst kind of vile, hateful, hypocritical believer can do all these things that Mr Washer advocates.

I believe this brand of puritanism is just as bad and shallow and distorted as Joel Osteen's. So many Christians and churches are extreme in one direction, and out of balance. You get either all the feel good doctrines of televangelists, or the brimstone Hell fire preachers that esteem puritanism. Neither is correct and as bad as each other.

It has never occurred to Paul Washer that a person can be outwardly faultess, but inwardly unGodly and unrighteous. Seriously, I would prefer the gospel of Joes Osteen over Paul Washer's any day. At least there isn't a huge burden on my shoulder with Mr Osteen's.

A heavy burden that will do nothing to bring me closer to God or change my heart towards God and my fellow man.

amigo, friend, comrad, i don't adore Paul Washer. It's his words and his pointing to the One Who is our salvation. It's the repenting, turning away from sin that he speaks of. It's the loving God with everything in us, and not just saying i want to go to heaven, that he speaks of. He lights the way to the narrow gate. He also leaves us to face God ourself and ask ourselves questions about life and death, and coming to terms if we really want a relationship with the God he speaks of. When Paul Washer speaks, he's speaking of this God, not himself.

 

[Wade Smith]

But since you both accuse me of being "judgemental" and "legalistic", let us examine a little parable about the law and about grace.


Suppose you are very poor, and have not had any good income for several months. Your boss at your under paid, part time job sends you on an errand across town. Upon coming out of the building of the place you were sent, you get into your car and are driving on your way out of the parking lot. A police car pulls ahead of you and passes under the traffice light just before you would have gone out. Then, the light turns red. You thought you had time to go through, but now it is too late, your brakes aren't as good as you thought they were, and you cannot stop in time to keep from passing into the lane of traffic.

Thankfully, this time, nobody was hurt, but the police care immediately turns on their lights and siren, and turns around, impossibly fast. The officer gets out of her car and walks over to your window and you already know you broke the law, you ran the red light. So you begin to make excuse, telling the officer you were baited, telling the officer this or that, and the officer does not care about those excuses. the law is what it is. At last you begin to beg for mercy, and explain how you know it is your fault and there is no excuse, but that you cannot possibly afford a traffic fine because you are poor. So this time, the officer has mercy and says, "I understand," and lets you go. That is grace. But guess what? Just because you got pardoned does not give excuse to run the next traffic signal, nor to break some other law.

 

[brinny]

....here's another video called:

Revival Hymn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwbps9k5Dj0

 

[Wade Smith]

....here's another video called:

Revival Hymn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwbps9k5Dj0

Wow. I got to 11 minutes so far and I'm weeping.

This reminds me of something similar I am reading, rather re-reading, in the Azusa Street book. Much of the time nobody even preached. They just went to church and lay on their faces praying for the lost.

"...meetings are held every night, all day Sundays, and all night every Friday. There is no order of services; they are expected to run in the divine order. The blessed Holy Spirit is the executive in charge. The leaders, or pastors, will be seen most of the time on their faces on the floor, or kneeling in the place where the pulpit commonly is, but there is neither pulpit, nor organ, nor choir." - Dr. Dumble(unknown citation).
​

Human organization and human programs leave very little room for the free Spirit of God. It means much to be willing to be considered a failure, while we seek to build up a purely spiritual kingdom. God’s kingdom cometh not with observation, (Luke 17:20). It is very easy to choose second best. The prayer life is needed much more than buildings or organizations. These are often a substitute for the other. Souls are born into the kingdom only through prayer. - Azusa Street p. 29.

 

[Wade Smith]

Another Excerpt from this book.

"We finally reached Conneaut, Ohio, on April 30 (1907) in a snowstorm. The presence of the Lord was with us from the start. It was a Holiness mission. We really had little to do but to look on and see God work. The Spirit took the meetings. In fact, we were on our faces most of the time in prayer. I could hardly keep off my face; the battle was the Lord's. And no one else could have fought it here, for we came up against most stubborn resistance. The Lord had warned me of this condition before we left Los Angeles. The leader who had written inviting me had not the slightest idea what Pentecost meant, just as I had feared. He wanted a good time, with a big increase in the mission, to build up the work in numbers, and so on.

The meetings had not gone far until we found him wedged squarely in the way. One sister prayed without ceasing under a travail of soul for him. He was fleshly, proud, and self-important, and would not let the meetings go deeper. We could go no further. He did not seem to have the least idea of humbling himself along with the rest of us. But he had to come down. God showed me I must deal with him. I had to obey or quit. There was no use going any further. We were eating at his table and sleeping in his beds. It was a hard thing to have to do, but I went after him. We locked horns, and he resisted me fiercely. God, however, brought him down. The Spirit convinced him, and he fell in a heap. He almost jarred the building when he fell. He lay under a bench for five hours and began to see himself as God saw him. The Spirit took him all to pieces and showed him his pride, ambition, and so on. Finally, he got up without a word and went home. There he locked himself in his room and remained until God met him. He came out from that interview as meek as a little lamb and confessed his shortcomings. The hindrance was out of the way, and the meetings swept on in power. He got the baptism himself some time later, after we had gone.

The Lord worked very deeply. Several were under the power all night on one occasion. There was no closing at 9 o'clock sharp, as the preachers must do in order to keep the people. We wanted God in those days. We did not have a thousand other things we wanted before him. And He did not disappoint us." - Azusa Street.
​

 

[BlackSabb]

I know by your doctrine on this and other threads.

Lets take this one. the fact that you have links and avatars for things which are very much shameful to the testimony of Christ. Though I know you have already been adressed on that and other matters, and simply blew that off too, called that person "legalistic" and "Judgemental" or some such rubbish too.

You can try to pretend that such things don't matter, but they clearly do matter. Such as in the threads where you have been constantly found justifying people doing things which clearly contradict Biblical commandment and traditional Christian values. in both this forum and the baptist forum.

I do not feel the need to quote all the ones I've seen, or even one of them, this is an open forum and anyone interested in the truth can search for threads which you have participated in.

As someone has already said on this thread, you validate Paul Washer's sermons.


So you don't have any problem with listening to music and watching movies or playing games (for those who are gamers)that glorify all the sins the Bible tells us not to partake of?

I find that completely ridiculous and just completely lacking in sincerity.

There is a word in the Bible called "concupiscence" which is another translation for "epithumia", which means "a longing for what is forbidden".

Summary of what you seem to believe:

"Its wrong to 'Sin,' but its only a sin if I believe its a sin, and its ok to watch/listen to other people glorify sin. Moreover, we ought to be buddies with sinners and hang around with them all the time, even though they show no sign of repenting or even caring about God."

I asked you to show me all my "behaviours" that you alluded to, and the only thing you could tell me was my affiliation with the band, Black Sabbath. Which btw, is not a "behaviour".

I asked you to publicly justify calling me unGodly, and the best you can do it allude to behaviours.

"Oh, here and there on this and that forum, you said things and supported things".

I want concrete statements that I've said. I want all these behaviours stated publicly. You slandered me publicly, so I want those behaviours and "doctrinal beliefs" that make me unGodly stated publicly.

How dare you state me to be unGodly and of the Devil and then refuse to name the objectionable beliefs and behaviours. So, do as I ask now. Don't weasel out of your responsiblities, now that you've named me publicly.

 

[Floatingaxe]

All Paul Washer does is preach holiness. He preaches non-compromising faith. It's all good.

 

[BlackSabb]

I have already addressed some of those things on other threads, wherein you argue in defense of hedonism of various sorts. I am not required to have to go search for the evidence, because you already have been addressed by myself and others on these matters.

So, in other words, you'll weasel out of your responsibilites again. You go around and denounce me as unGodly and holy with objectionable behaviour, but refuse to go into specifics-except that you don't like the band, Black Sabbath.

Have the guts at least to state your accusations, not this weak cop out of "well, stuff you said on other forums" etc.

BTW, having something in your avatar or signature IS a behaviour, since you alone are the one who chose what to be associated with.




So, given what Paul has said in Corinthians and Ephesians, what business does a Christian have using the name of this band as their screenname, and associating themself with this band? It is "having concord with belial", and Paul has said that we ought not to keep company with devils.

So this is one evidence that you have provided against yourself, though you vehemently deny it, as you did when another confronted you on this a few weeks ago (back before I was banned).

What further evidence does one need to provide, when your very screen name and avatar and signature provide it for me?


If you are as "well saved" as you would have us all to believe, then why is it that you portray an image of the devil in your avatar, and promote a band that promotes the occult?

Thus you give "mixed signals," i.e. "lukewarm" or "double minded" as to the degree of consecration you would obtain.

If we are to accomplish anything in this generation for Christ, why do we maintain ties to the things of the world, and most especially the occult?

No Christian has any business being associated with such things, even loosely.

And that's it??? You don't like my affilation with Black Sabbath! That is the only reason you denounce me as unholy and unGodly. You have nothing else to go on except for Black Sabbath. And btw buddy, the avatar is not necessarily a demon for your information. Just because you say it is doesn't make it so.

You have made outrageous claims of my "behaviours" and beliefs that you find objectionable and continue to refuse to state. Things other than my affiliation with Black Sabbath. You stated that there is evidence of unholy and unGodly behaviours and beliefs from other threads.

I am asking you again. Please state these objectionable behaviours and beliefs that you claim I have. Other than my liking of Black Sabbath.

You have made claims against me publicly, I am asking you to show evidences of these claims publicly. Evidences from other threads that you claim.

 

[Nadiine]

well it looks to me like this thread is turning into extreme antinomianism or legalism issues.
(if you focus on sin at all, you're labeled legalistic - and if you coddle sin and ignore it thinking that Christians can live in chronic sin, then you basically fall into antinomianism)

Truth lies in the BALANCE of the 2. Both extremes are ungodly and lead to trouble.

As for Paul Washer, the man is obviously working to COUNTER the popular
teachers of our day who preach prosperity gospels and feel-good warm fuzzies instead of the true gospel.

He's obviously having to bring along the balance the others have left behind in their efforts to bring people to self esteem instead of repentance at the foot of the cross.

He isn't wrong for his focus when so many teachers are preaching that we're naturally GOOD people who DESERVE more love & more blessings and have nothing we should feel guilty or remorseful about.
Never focus on the "bad", only good things that make us feel happy and content about ourselves. There is no hell, there is no judgment...
just do the best you can & be HAPPY.
Being broken before God is unecessary, blah blah blah blah

Hopefully when the majority of these teachers either find the true God & attain salvation or come to their senses and decide to preach the FULL counsel of God to equip their flocks for battle, this Washer guy can go back to preaching the balanced message that includes alot of positives - until then he's preaching the stuff these prosperity people are leaving out completely which is harming many souls.

If people refuse to heed his message, so be it - it shows me what they really want in life and what God really means to them. (a meal ticket to self indulgence and selfishness without being kingdom minded)

 

[Nadiine]

Just caught this vid. post on another thread. (from angel4truth)

THIS is why I like Paul Washer's admonishments to true salvation
- people need to make sure they DO know the Lord.

How many people think they know Him ?
Jesus says this:

Mt. 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=OY6F0pkArds

 

[Nadiine]

The better question is :

why Don't you