Why do you all adore Paul Washer??

[SoundCard]

The thing is, not everything we do now is automatically a sin like Wade Smith keeps saying. Music for example isn't really spoken of in scripture is it? Sure, we can all agree that listening to rap about things doing drugs all the time, or how many women the rapper wants to sleep with is quite frankly, disgusting, but I'm convinced that no matter our shortcomings once having come to Christ, He won't let one of us go.

That does not for one second mean we're free to go out and sin it up, but when we do sin, for those in Christ, it won't condemn us. Quite honestly, it's hard for us to tell who will and won't be saved at that last day. Yes, we can warn one another with that passage from Matthew, but we also have passages where Christ tells us when if a single sheep goes astray how a shepherd will leave the flock in the open field, and how much rejoicing there is when it is found. Those who have come onto Christ won't be forgotten, or abandoned, and while living a lukewarm life should never be the desire of a Christian, we don't stand condemned before God.

Let me say something else. When I sin, I hate it. I revile the acts I had done, so believe me, God has convicted my heart multiple times, He's made it plain what I have done is no good, that I must repent. But there is something else. We can't continue feeling so guilty about our sins when we make them. What I mean is this.

God gave us the ability to stand before Him in confidence, in spite of our imperfect nature by way of His son. So when we do make mistakes, we repent humbly, we take it seriously, we correct our nature so as to try our best not to repeat it. But not one of those foul ups will separate us from God. Quite frankly, anyone who tells me that someone's going to hell for listening to Black Sabbath, I can't take them seriously. It's music, it's songs. It's not listening to Black Sabbath that sends someone to hell, it is the failure to repent and come unto Christ. The question that comes is, will listening to Black Sabbath lead someone to stumble, to sin? In that case, avoid it at all costs, because it is a pitfall for that individual.

Different people have different triggers as to what will make them stumble and sin. If someone can't eat meat, then my sitting in front of them chowing down on Burger King will grieve them and possibly make them stumble. Paul spoke of that as well.

Freedom in Christ is not free license to sin, but it is license to get back up after having sinned, and continuing on in God's graces after thoroughly repenting. The things of this world originated by man made hands, that is, the televisions, the music, the instruments, the video games, etc. What causes problems is when people stop seeing them for being the objects they are and start pursuing them with a fervor likened onto worship. Instruments are tools, the music they produce just things. Some of the songs out there are about plain evil messages, I'm not denying that. But the thing that sends people to hell is failing to believe in Christ. God will do a good work through those who come onto Christ. The Holy Spirit will be at work, their fruits will reveal their nature.

 

[brinny]

The thing is, not everything we do now is automatically a sin like Wade Smith keeps saying. Music for example isn't really spoken of in scripture is it? Sure, we can all agree that listening to rap about things doing drugs all the time, or how many women the rapper wants to sleep with is quite frankly, disgusting, but I'm convinced that no matter our shortcomings once having come to Christ, He won't let one of us go.

That does not for one second mean we're free to go out and sin it up, but when we do sin, for those in Christ, it won't condemn us. Quite honestly, it's hard for us to tell who will and won't be saved at that last day. Yes, we can warn one another with that passage from Matthew, but we also have passages where Christ tells us when if a single sheep goes astray how a shepherd will leave the flock in the open field, and how much rejoicing there is when it is found. Those who have come onto Christ won't be forgotten, or abandoned, and while living a lukewarm life should never be the desire of a Christian, we don't stand condemned before God.

Let me say something else. When I sin, I hate it. I revile the acts I had done, so believe me, God has convicted my heart multiple times, He's made it plain what I have done is no good, that I must repent. But there is something else. We can't continue feeling so guilty about our sins when we make them. What I mean is this.

God gave us the ability to stand before Him in confidence, in spite of our imperfect nature by way of His son. So when we do make mistakes, we repent humbly, we take it seriously, we correct our nature so as to try our best not to repeat it. But not one of those foul ups will separate us from God. Quite frankly, anyone who tells me that someone's going to hell for listening to Black Sabbath, I can't take them seriously. It's music, it's songs. It's not listening to Black Sabbath that sends someone to hell, it is the failure to repent and come unto Christ. The question that comes is, will listening to Black Sabbath lead someone to stumble, to sin? In that case, avoid it at all costs, because it is a pitfall for that individual.

Different people have different triggers as to what will make them stumble and sin. If someone can't eat meat, then my sitting in front of them chowing down on Burger King will grieve them and possibly make them stumble. Paul spoke of that as well.

Freedom in Christ is not free license to sin, but it is license to get back up after having sinned, and continuing on in God's graces after thoroughly repenting. The things of this world originated by man made hands, that is, the televisions, the music, the instruments, the video games, etc. What causes problems is when people stop seeing them for being the objects they are and start pursuing them with a fervor likened onto worship. Instruments are tools, the music they produce just things. Some of the songs out there are about plain evil messages, I'm not denying that. But the thing that sends people to hell is failing to believe in Christ. God will do a good work through those who come onto Christ. The Holy Spirit will be at work, their fruits will reveal their nature.

anything or anyone we value above God is sin. What sends people to hell is lack of repentence.

 

[Nadiine]

Hi Sound!

Glad to read that

I have always believed that preachers should be preaching the WHOLE counsel of God. Not just staying in the topics they're most
comfy preaching about - but there are negatives and warnings that God gives us that are very serious and important.

If we're continually fed the fluff and dessert, how is that equipping
the saints for the battles and temptations and persecutions & trials that come our way?
All they're given are pep rallies - not fundamentals to hold them in times of trouble.
And is it any wonder today we're seeing a massive falling away from the faith? Things get tough and people take off.

I view this as a parable of the soils/sower in Mat. 13. They aren't grounded in the faith, they have a general belief in God (or a god they believe him to be)... but they aren't FED the truth & principles they need to guide & structure their walks.

Trouble or temptation comes and Pooof, there they go - too weak to handle anything & they fall.

When we're taught the right reasons to be a Christian and what being one means and is, and how we're to live before God, THEN we are growing in faith and taking proper ROOT in the Lord.
Then when the trouble comes, we have substance to hold us there.
Our foundation is then firm; not relational or conditional to "what God does for me - or else I'll bail and leave".

Messages like these are necessary - and so are the positive messages too.
But I'll repeat it again that preachers like Washer are just out there trying to COUNTER the damage done by those who only preach fluff, cotton candy, rainbows & unicorns

I'm hoping & assuming that he's also preaching the whole counsel of God outside of those Utube spots -
We need to grow in balance - not all wrath and not all prosperity & self esteem

 

[SoundCard]

Hi Sound!

Glad to read that

I have always believed that preachers should be preaching the WHOLE counsel of God. Not just staying in the topics they're most
comfy preaching about - but there are negatives and warnings that God gives us that are very serious and important.

If we're continually fed the fluff and dessert, how is that equipping
the saints for the battles and temptations and persecutions & trials that come our way?
All they're given are pep rallies - not fundamentals to hold them in times of trouble.
And is it any wonder today we're seeing a massive falling away from the faith? Things get tough and people take off.

I view this as a parable of the soils/sower in Mat. 13. They aren't grounded in the faith, they have a general belief in God (or a god they believe him to be)... but they aren't FED the truth & principles they need to guide & structure their walks.

Trouble or temptation comes and Pooof, there they go - too weak to handle anything & they fall.

When we're taught the right reasons to be a Christian and what being one means and is, and how we're to live before God, THEN we are growing in faith and taking proper ROOT in the Lord.
Then when the trouble comes, we have substance to hold us there.
Our foundation is then firm; not relational or conditional to "what God does for me - or else I'll bail and leave".

Messages like these are necessary - and so are the positive messages too.
But I'll repeat it again that preachers like Washer are just out there trying to COUNTER the damage done by those who only preach fluff, cotton candy, rainbows & unicorns

I'm hoping & assuming that he's also preaching the whole counsel of God outside of those Utube spots -
We need to grow in balance - not all wrath and not all prosperity & self esteem

Good to see ya Nadiine! Been awhile!

Oh man have I heard both. The thing that stands out to me admist all this is one other thing - for those in Christ, there is no condemnation. We're told flat out that we're no longer subject to that judgment, but Paul warns us our actions and conduct very much are - our works, the things we do in this life will be tested by fire. That which is righteous and good by Him, will withstand, and the promises and rewards, though undeserving and given in Grace, will be granted, but for each lot that is burnt up, some of that is lost to the flame. So, there is still loss to be had for a believer, though for me personally, the greatest reward I could ever imagine would just to be able to see my precious Lord and here Him say the words "Welcome home."

 

[Nadiine]

Good to see ya Nadiine! Been awhile!

Oh man have I heard both. The thing that stands out to me admist all this is one other thing - for those in Christ, there is no condemnation. We're told flat out that we're no longer subject to that judgment, but Paul warns us our actions and conduct very much are - our works, the things we do in this life will be tested by fire. That which is righteous and good by Him, will withstand, and the promises and rewards, though undeserving and given in Grace, will be granted, but for each lot that is burnt up, some of that is lost to the flame. So, there is still loss to be had for a believer, though for me personally, the greatest reward I could ever imagine would just to be able to see my precious Lord and here Him say the words "Welcome home."

Ok, about condemnation -- to admonish believers to walk worthy of Christ's name is what we're called to do by Jesus Himself.
We're to be CONFORMED to Christ.

Can we achieve it? doubtful - our hearts are naturally wicked.

The thing about the music is that it's a hinderance to growth over time.

Perfect timing to read about this too becuz right now I have my own struggle w/ 2 songs on my MP3 player that I work out to.
I've been heavily convicted about them and basically not wanting to delete them. It isn't easy getting rid of music I love. (words are bad, tune is GREAT). the usual.

Someone admonishing me in the area of music is probly RIGHT - it IS most likely hindering our spiritual progress in some way or another. But we just continue rationalizing & justifying the demonic words we're flooding our minds with.
I know all about that war back & forth, it's been with me all my life becuz I grew up in hard rock, metal & punk - I naturally love them deeply and have a strong love for music.
But will I PROMOTE them? NO. I know they're unhealthy for us spiritually and worse, if we're spending money on that [awesome] crap, we're giving the enemy more $$ to do more evil with.

It IS bad stuff. The issue is, we need to admit it for what it is.
Then if we decide to keep that music, then we should just be honest enough to say, "yes I do know it's bad & spiritually not edifying to my spirit or glorifying God any - but I like and want to keep it anyways".

At that point, it gets into a level of secular music - some of it we don't all agree is "evil".

I think James 4:17 should guide us
James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it,
to him it is sin.

 

[Cris413]

Just caught this vid. post on another thread. (from angel4truth)

THIS is why I like Paul Washer's admonishments to true salvation
- people need to make sure they DO know the Lord.

How many people think they know Him ?
Jesus says this:

Mt. 7
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'


http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=OY6F0pkArds

Awesome message...

I think many consider God...as we consider the land we live in...

Ask not what your country can do for you...has become what I "deserve" regardless of any effort on my part...everything this country can GIVE...

same with God...rarely do we consider how we can serve God...what it means to be a servant of the Most High God...Master and Creator of the Universe....HOLY GOD....but rather what God can do for us.

Salvation is a free gift...do we appreciate it? Do we even have the slightest idea what that means? Do we even consider giving back to God what He has so freely given us through His grace...AND MERCY!

We seem to have a pretty good grasp on the grace...but what about the MERCY? Why does God show us mercy....

The better question is :

why Don't you

Good question...

 

[zerosaiyaman]

anything or anyone we value above God is sin. What sends people to hell is lack of repentence.

You're very close, Brinny, but just a little off, I think. You're right about that being sin, because it breaks the command to love God above all else, which is the primary command we are given. However, there are still other ways to sin - and most sin is a result of pride (which is how Satan fell in the first place). Also, going to hell is not a lack of "repentance" per ce:

John3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

1st John 5:10-12 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Rather, as the bible states /all over/, salvation is a matter of believing in Christ, or, as Paul simply puts it:

Romans 10:9-11 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

And as the apostles in general put it:

Acts 16:30-31 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

So, basically we have two things going on: the awknowledgement that we cannot save ourselves, not through works or by any other means, and that we are in need of salvation for we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; and then that our salvation is found in Christ alone, who is the Son of God and whom God raised from the dead as the final atonement for the sins of all who believe, so that by trusting that in Christ we too will be raised from the dead, that it is nothing of ourselves in any way, so shall it be. As:

John 6:39-40 39"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is indeed an act of repentance too. But, the fact of the matter is, we will still fight with sin all our lives, as Paul lamented, and we will need to confess our sins and repent throughout our lives: not so that we are saved, we were saved once and for all as Hebrews and Jesus state clearly, but that so we may remain in Christ in this life and the benefits and power of such therein - continuing the race with Him ever before our eyes. Sin will hinder your prayers for instance, but it cannot condemn one who is in Christ - as Jesus said, they have now passed from death to life the moment they believe.

This is a very, /very/ important matter, which is why I harp on it, as understanding the nature of sin is important in the fight against it. You cannot effectively fight it or live the Christian life if you don't understand what's going on. When we become believers, we are free from sin and the curse of the law

Romans 3:22-24, 28 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

but Satan is called the "accuser of the breathren" for a reason, he tries to use guilt to cripple us. There a big difference between godly sorrow and conviction, and guilt. And the flesh will still try to drag us into sin to rob us of the power and joy of our salvation (through our salvation always remains), and make us ineffectual for the work of the Kingdom, which is bringing others the GOOD NEWS of Christ.

So then, in the end we come full circle. Salvation, through belief in the Son, saves us from the eternal judgement - but our works will still be judged separately:

1st Corinthians 3:10-15,21-23 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Therefore, remember that the deeds we do, good or bad, sin or love, will be judged and exposed on that Day, the day of judgement, and we will be rewarded accordingly, or escape like one through the flames if all one has is belief in Christ and no good deeds built upon that foundation. This is not to meantion that living in sin only brings bad consequences in /this/ life too; troubles and tribulations from which the only escape is repentance from the sin that brought you there, as God will discipline those He loves, those that are His own. Soooo, living in sin will bring you before His discipline and the natural consequences of your actions which sin by itself will bring. It's all a pretty easy issue when you dig through it.

But again, salvation belongs to our Lord, not to us, and we can do nothing to bring it or throw it aside other than believing or rejecting Jesus Christ who died and rose again so that we may know Him and eternal life.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
anything or anyone we value above God is sin. What sends people to hell is lack of repentence.

You're very close, Brinny, but just a little off, I think. You're right about that being sin, because it breaks the command to love God above all else, which is the primary command we are given. However, there are still other ways to sin - and most sin is a result of pride (which is how Satan fell in the first place). Also, going to hell is not a lack of "repentance" per ce:

John3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

1st John 5:10-12 10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Rather, as the bible states /all over/, salvation is a matter of believing in Christ, or, as Paul simply puts it:

Romans 10:9-11 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

And as the apostles in general put it:

Acts 16:30-31 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

So, basically we have two things going on: the awknowledgement that we cannot save ourselves, not through works or by any other means, and that we are in need of salvation for we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God; and then that our salvation is found in Christ alone, who is the Son of God and whom God raised from the dead as the final atonement for the sins of all who believe, so that by trusting that in Christ we too will be raised from the dead, that it is nothing of ourselves in any way, so shall it be. As:

John 6:39-40 39"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

This is indeed an act of repentance too. But, the fact of the matter is, we will still fight with sin all our lives, as Paul lamented, and we will need to confess our sins and repent throughout our lives: not so that we are saved, we were saved once and for all as Hebrews and Jesus state clearly, but that so we may remain in Christ in this life and the benefits and power of such therein - continuing the race with Him ever before our eyes. Sin will hinder your prayers for instance, but it cannot condemn one who is in Christ - as Jesus said, they have now passed from death to life the moment they believe.

This is a very, /very/ important matter, which is why I harp on it, as understanding the nature of sin is important in the fight against it. You cannot effectively fight it or live the Christian life if you don't understand what's going on. When we become believers, we are free from sin and the curse of the law

Romans 3:22-24, 28 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

but Satan is called the "accuser of the breathren" for a reason, he tries to use guilt to cripple us. There a big difference between godly sorrow and conviction, and guilt. And the flesh will still try to drag us into sin to rob us of the power and joy of our salvation (through our salvation always remains), and make us ineffectual for the work of the Kingdom, which is bringing others the GOOD NEWS of Christ.

So then, in the end we come full circle. Salvation, through belief in the Son, saves us from the eternal judgement - but our works will still be judged separately:

1st Corinthians 3:10-15,21-23 10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

Therefore, remember that the deeds we do, good or bad, sin or love, will be judged and exposed on that Day, the day of judgement, and we will be rewarded accordingly, or escape like one through the flames if all one has is belief in Christ and no good deeds built upon that foundation. This is not to meantion that living in sin only brings bad consequences in /this/ life too; troubles and tribulations from which the only escape is repentance from the sin that brought you there, as God will discipline those He loves, those that are His own. Soooo, living in sin will bring you before His discipline and the natural consequences of your actions which sin by itself will bring. It's all a pretty easy issue when you dig through it.

But again, salvation belongs to our Lord, not to us, and we can do nothing to bring it or throw it aside other than believing or rejecting Jesus Christ who died and rose again so that we may know Him and eternal life.

going to hell is exactly that.....a lack of repentence. We may be coming from the same place basically, but the key here is repentence. without it nothing else matters and our hearts are not arighted with God the Father.

that's why God tells us that He has chosen us in the furnace of affliction...

Isaiah 48:10

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction."

 

[BlackSabb]

The better question is :

why Don't you?

Ha! Don't make me laugh. I have a very good reason for disliking Paul Washer. I have come across types like him my whole Christian life.

And I have discovered a simple formula: that the more outwardly conservative a Christian becomes, he inverse proportionately becomes less loving, kind etc and proportionately becomes nastier, ruder etc.

Let me tell you something. The worst Christians that I have ever encountered, and I mean ones that have lied to my face, borrowed money without repaying, slandered and defamed, and being generally rude and unloving have all had one thing in common: they were ultra conservatives that didn't listen to "worldly" music, didn't watch "worldly" tv or movies etc, didn't have any alcohol, didn't go to any club etc.

And the more a Christian "abstains from the things of the world", the worse he/she becomes. Why is that I ask you?

So I have good reason to despise the likes of Paul Washer. I've had too many dealings with people just like him Nadine.

There's your answer.

 

[Cris413]

there is always that speck and plank thingy to consider...

 

[zerosaiyaman]

going to hell is exactly that.....a lack of repentence. We may be coming from the same place basically, but the key here is repentence. without it nothing else matters and our hearts are not arighted with God the Father.

that's why God tells us that He has chosen us in the furnace of affliction...

Isaiah 48:10

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction."

I think you are absolutely right that we are coming from the same place. I'm just trying to be more specifics and nail down semantics really, using scripture. You are right that repenting of this world, repenting to believe that Christ alone is the way to salvation, not the world or anything in it, or ourselves; choosing to not let the world rule one and decide what one sees as right and wrong; not worshiping or praying to anything of this world, but instead only to God through Christ - all that is definitely the repentance of salvation.

But, I mean, the word "repent(ance)" is used in many other lesser ways, so it is difficult to be specific with it. If anyone asks for forgiveness about anything, they are repenting of that thing, even if just temporarily. We repent to each other when we say "sorry". So, see why it doesn't seem very specific to me? At least with how language is - makes for a lot of defining.

Rather, I hold that the key is what these verses say (these being only a few of many):

Romans 10:9-11 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Acts 16:30-31 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

John3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

These are absolutely acts of repentance, believing in the Son for salvation instead of this world or oneself, which are more specific than just saying "repent", which may not be specific at all. The fact of the matter is, we cannot transform our own lives, let alone the lives of others, only God can lead us to repentance and transform our lives. And that may even be on a per issue basis. Ss I said earlier, just because we are saved doesn't mean we won't sin again - even if God no longer holds our sins against us, as:

1st John 1:8-9 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1st John 2:1-2 1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heck, we haven't even gotten into predestination here. That's a whole other layer. But one has to understand the basics of salvation and sin, then no way to go beyond the milk.

 

[SoundCard]

As to be on topic, I only heard one of his videos, and it was something that vexed me. He argues that it is conviction of sin that lets us know we are saved. I do agree with him that we must repent for our sins, that is integral to a healthy walk, but even the unsaved can feel guilty over a wrong act. Even the unsaved can be convicted somewhat by their conscience when they do wrong. That CANNOT be the only measuring stick for knowing we are saved. So what then, if our own actions can betray our intentions, if our own feelings of conviction may only be guilt, then what can assure of us our salvation? The confidence in knowing we can stand before God. We can trust the Word of the Lord. We can trust in Christ. It is why we cannot fully ever tell who is or is not in the fold. Maybe events have unfolded that have lead someone horribly astray, you would call that one unsaved, but it might not be so. They could very much be in God's salvation, but apart from His grace in their choices. We can have confidence in the work of the Cross and His thoroughness. The Lord will keep those who are faithful, and even if we fall away, even if we sin, even if we stumble, even repeatedly! The Lord has saved us, we cannot be taken out of His hand. We are His own by way of His son.

 

[BlackSabb]

Ok, about condemnation -- to admonish believers to walk worthy of Christ's name is what we're called to do by Jesus Himself.
We're to be CONFORMED to Christ.

Can we achieve it? doubtful - our hearts are naturally wicked.

The thing about the music is that it's a hinderance to growth over time.

Perfect timing to read about this too becuz right now I have my own struggle w/ 2 songs on my MP3 player that I work out to.
I've been heavily convicted about them and basically not wanting to delete them. It isn't easy getting rid of music I love. (words are bad, tune is GREAT). the usual.

Someone admonishing me in the area of music is probly RIGHT - it IS most likely hindering our spiritual progress in some way or another. But we just continue rationalizing & justifying the demonic words we're flooding our minds with.
I know all about that war back & forth, it's been with me all my life becuz I grew up in hard rock, metal & punk - I naturally love them deeply and have a strong love for music.
But will I PROMOTE them? NO. I know they're unhealthy for us spiritually and worse, if we're spending money on that [awesome] crap, we're giving the enemy more $$ to do more evil with.

It IS bad stuff. The issue is, we need to admit it for what it is.
Then if we decide to keep that music, then we should just be honest enough to say, "yes I do know it's bad & spiritually not edifying to my spirit or glorifying God any - but I like and want to keep it anyways".

At that point, it gets into a level of secular music - some of it we don't all agree is "evil".

I think James 4:17 should guide us
James 4:17
Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it,
to him it is sin.

No offense to you intended, but I find this type of thing very common in people, especially Christians-and tiring, exasperating and infuriating.

When a Christian breaks off some habit that was either bad-period, or bad for themselves, then suddenly they are fiercely convinced that that same habit is bad for everybody else. I absolutely hate that sort of thing.

Maybe you've heard of the expression? "What's worse than an alcoholic? An ex alcoholic!". How very true.

Nadine, just because music was a big problem for you doesn't mean that it's the same vice for everybody. I simply cannot stand when someone gives up something and then they go around proclaiming how everyone else needs to give it up too. So music was a big stumbling block to you and you gave it up.

Great for you. But that truth applies to you. Don't paint everyone else with the same brush. Music is not necessarily an evil and stumbling block to others. If it was hindering your spiritual growth, that doesn't qualify you to say it will hinder everyone elses spiritual growth.

You went into a bit of detail about your walk, and your journey and your walk of faith and your spiritual progress, in regards to various things such as secular music. Now, let me tell you another side of that same story, in relation to music.

To tell you the truth, secular hard rock stopped me from going into a psychotic rage. I went without secualar music for about 15 years, thanks to the pressures of a fundamentalist family and the Pentecostal church, (which I am well out of now). I then sufferred a string of abuses in my last church from a number of people, including one person whom I took into my home from the street and loaned him money to get back on his feet again, and be reunited with his wife. He then did the dirty on me and told me off and refused to pay me back.

I drove to his home once with a tyre iron in my car. I was going to lure him into my car and drive to an isolated area and well...I think you can guess the rest. Lucky for him, (and for me probably), he had fled his home without my knowledge. I had that much rage from so much abuse I endured from people in my last church, including the senior pastors. Who incidentally, told me that I was not a "member of the church" despite being in it for 7 years, regularly giving offerings and being in the music tem that whole time. I haven't been in fellowship since, and quite frankly, I don't miss it one little bit.

I had an enormous amount of rage. I could have easily ended up dead or in jail. I could have killed someone from so much anger. After my last church, I went back to all my beloved secular music. The very first cd I bought was a compilation album of Creedence Clearwater Revival-lol. It was so very strange returning to secular music after a long hiatus. It felt really weird, but good at the same time.

Slowly, I rebought all my favourite music, and to tell you the truth, it had an enormous calming influence on me!! Yes, you read that correct. Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin etc quashed my rage and helped to calm me down. I didn't feel so violent and vengeful after I reacquainted myself with all my old music. Yeah, that's something you don't hear everyday.

So, do I suggest that everyone who has anger issues go out and listen to hard rock? No, of course not. I had a positive result from returning to secular music, but that is for me. It is not for everybody.

But I thought I'd mention that just to debunk this myth that rock makes everyone aggressive. It's the exact opposite in my case. And my story is just as valid as yours.

 

[brinny]

I think you are absolutely right that we are coming from the same place. I'm just trying to be more specifics and nail down semantics really, using scripture. You are right that repenting of this world, repenting to believe that Christ alone is the way to salvation, not the world or anything in it, or ourselves; choosing to not let the world rule one and decide what one sees as right and wrong; not worshiping or praying to anything of this world, but instead only to God through Christ - all that is definitely the repentance of salvation.

But, I mean, the word "repent(ance)" is used in many other lesser ways, so it is difficult to be specific with it. If anyone asks for forgiveness about anything, they are repenting of that thing, even if just temporarily. We repent to each other when we say "sorry". So, see why it doesn't seem very specific to me? At least with how language is - makes for a lot of defining.

Rather, I hold that the key is what these verses say (these being only a few of many):

Romans 10:9-11 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Acts 16:30-31 30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

John3:35-36 35"The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

These are absolutely acts of repentance, believing in the Son for salvation instead of this world or oneself, which are more specific than just saying "repent", which may not be specific at all. The fact of the matter is, we cannot transform our own lives, let alone the lives of others, only God can lead us to repentance and transform our lives. And that may even be on a per issue basis. Ss I said earlier, just because we are saved doesn't mean we won't sin again - even if God no longer holds our sins against us, as:

1st John 1:8-9 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1st John 2:1-2 1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Heck, we haven't even gotten into predestination here. That's a whole other layer. But one has to understand the basics of salvation and sin, then no way to go beyond the milk.

the repentence i speak of is coming to terms that we are deserving of hell, on our faces, before a holy God. That He is justified in sending us there. That we are not using Him as a means just so we won't go to hell.

All of us want to go to heaven, but some are hoping God isn't there when we get there.

It's a bit of a stickler.....somewhere on a path, a very narrow one, not easily seen, but seen by those who are seeking Him, and to who nothing else matters but seeing Him.

Reminds me of Proverbs....so many verses speak of wisdom yelling out from the housetops for men to hear, those who have ears to hear. It's being shouted, all around us, this wisdom. It doesn't always sound pretty. It just speaks the stark truth.

 

[Nadiine]

the repentence i speak of is coming to terms that we are deserving of hell, on our faces, before a holy God. That He is justified in sending us there. That we are not using Him as a means just so we won't go to hell.

All of us want to go to heaven, but some are hoping God isn't there when we get there.

It's a bit of a stickler.....somewhere on a path, a very narrow one, not easily seen, but seen by those who are seeking Him, and to who nothing else matters but seeing Him.

Reminds me of Proverbs....so many verses speak of wisdom yelling out from the housetops for men to hear, those who have ears to hear. It's being shouted, all around us, this wisdom. It doesn't always sound pretty. It just speaks the stark truth.

I think the bottom line in this is that people want God and eternal bliss in the next life - but they don't want to follow God's program to get there.

That's our natural desire & bent to want to live OUR WAY (the easier way, not so much caring about our sin - unless we agree the sins we commit or committed really ARE "bad or nasty".... if they're just the "usual" sins, no big deal - nothing to get your undies in a bunch over). (apathetic to sin).

It's a simple issue of rebellion - people dislike God's laws or being told that they need to obey as I see it.

 

[Wade Smith]

No offense to you intended, but I find this type of thing very common in people, especially Christians-and tiring, exasperating and infuriating.

When a Christian breaks off some habit that was either bad-period, or bad for themselves, then suddenly they are fiercely convinced that that same habit is bad for everybody else. I absolutely hate that sort of thing.

Maybe you've heard of the expression? "What's worse than an alcoholic? An ex alcoholic!". How very true.

Nadine, just because music was a big problem for you doesn't mean that it's the same vice for everybody. I simply cannot stand when someone gives up something and then they go around proclaiming how everyone else needs to give it up too. So music was a big stumbling block to you and you gave it up.

Great for you. But that truth applies to you. Don't paint everyone else with the same brush. Music is not necessarily an evil and stumbling block to others. If it was hindering your spiritual growth, that doesn't qualify you to say it will hinder everyone elses spiritual growth.

I realize you think I am just condemning you or something, but let me here quote something else that I just wrote yesterday, in the CC forum in response to the question, "are there degrees of Christians". The short answer is, "yes there are, but there aren't supposed to be."
===
in the parable of the talents, there are 3 servants. they start with 10, 5, and 1 talent respectively. They end up with 21, 10, and 0 respectively, the third dying lost having, at one time, possessed the very Spirit of God, calling Jesus "Lord, Lord".

One might imagine that there would be those with 2 talents becoming 4, 3 becoming 6 and so on. Also, there may be some who obtained 1 talent becoming many more, etc.

Men are saved by grace, but they are rewarded according to their works.

All are called to the same degree of obedience and seperation, but the question is, to what degree will we obey?

There is but one law with God. Whether homeborn or foreigner, Jew or Gentile, free or slave, rich or poor, male or female, there is one standard of righteousness and one rule of faith.

We must be willing to be God's instruments, his vessels on the earth. If none other will stand in the gap, then we must present ourselves, and present ourselves immediately. Let us not wait until evidently none other will come. Let us wholely give ourselves to the Lord Jesus upon the first call, lest we be found having but one talent that gained none.

We must cry out to God on behalf of this generation. As we have wept and mourned at the departing of a loved one, so ought we to weep for this generation, and even more so. As the loved one knew the Lord, but many do not know the Lord, thus theirs is the greater tragedy. Pray on BEHALF of your enemy, whether that is the neighbor or the stranger among us, that God will save them and set them free from sin. Not a short trivial prayer, but a deep and groaning prayer until we know that we know we have touched the throne of grace in all sincerety.

"Except a man forsake all," said Jesus, "He cannot be my disciple." (see Luke 14:33.) This may require some qualification, or explanation, as to positive action, but the principle remains the same for all. The church, since her fall in the early centuries, has had an altogether mistaken idea of her calling and salvation. All believers are called to a 100 percent consecration. God doesn't have two standards of consecration - one for the foreign missionary, and another for the Christian at home. We cannot find it in the Bible. One is called to consecrate his all as well as the other, as God's stewards in their own places and callings. It takes three to make a missionary. One goes, one prays, and one gives. "This is a hard saying; who can hear it?" (John 6:60.) -Azusa Street
​

You went into a bit of detail about your walk, and your journey and your walk of faith and your spiritual progress, in regards to various things such as secular music. Now, let me tell you another side of that same story, in relation to music.

To tell you the truth, secular hard rock stopped me from going into a psychotic rage. I went without secualar music for about 15 years, thanks to the pressures of a fundamentalist family and the Pentecostal church, (which I am well out of now). I then sufferred a string of abuses in my last church from a number of people, including one person whom I took into my home from the street and loaned him money to get back on his feet again, and be reunited with his wife. He then did the dirty on me and told me off and refused to pay me back.

I drove to his home once with a tyre iron in my car. I was going to lure him into my car and drive to an isolated area and well...I think you can guess the rest. Lucky for him, (and for me probably), he had fled his home without my knowledge. I had that much rage from so much abuse I endured from people in my last church, including the senior pastors. Who incidentally, told me that I was not a "member of the church" despite being in it for 7 years, regularly giving offerings and being in the music tem that whole time. I haven't been in fellowship since, and quite frankly, I don't miss it one little bit.

I had an enormous amount of rage. I could have easily ended up dead or in jail. I could have killed someone from so much anger. After my last church, I went back to all my beloved secular music. The very first cd I bought was a compilation album of Creedence Clearwater Revival-lol. It was so very strange returning to secular music after a long hiatus. It felt really weird, but good at the same time.

Slowly, I rebought all my favourite music, and to tell you the truth, it had an enormous calming influence on me!! Yes, you read that correct. Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin etc quashed my rage and helped to calm me down. I didn't feel so violent and vengeful after I reacquainted myself with all my old music. Yeah, that's something you don't hear everyday.

So, do I suggest that everyone who has anger issues go out and listen to hard rock? No, of course not. I had a positive result from returning to secular music, but that is for me. It is not for everybody.

But I thought I'd mention that just to debunk this myth that rock makes everyone aggressive. It's the exact opposite in my case. And my story is just as valid as yours.

It is a story of self deception, because MY story is a lot like YOURS, except mine was VIDEO GAMES and certain high fantasy books, and I am now past that stage of denial, hopefully.

My story starts really when I was about 8 years old, but the keystone point that I think of was when I was 10-13 years old.

They, these books and games, of course, offer an "escape" and even an "innocent looking" means of soothing anger or whatever other distraction or entertainment you would like to think of it as being.

But in the end, it is just another form of idolatry. Instead of laying our sins at the foot of the cross, we seek some worldly escape, which inevitably is itself a sin, either direcly, or else because we make it an idol, trusting in it instead of Jesus. Of course I did not "bow down" to a book or a computer game and worship it, but I may as well have, either way it was just as much an idol to me as baal was to ancient israel (but I'll return to this later.)

Hey, I primarily started reading books,a nd having video games as a main hobby BECAUSE of the fact that it was a form of entertainment which, on the surface, does not appear to be "as sinful" as doing everything that unbelievers do. It appears to be a "perfectly innocent and 'christian' thing to do".

But I simply did not want to give up those books, which so many Christians are absolutely convinced are "allegories" of Chiristianity, this despite the fact that the original author in one case said it definitely was not at all based on Christianity, and that moreover, he hated allegory. (speaking of J.R.R. Tolkien.)

Anyway, I know that God does not call two people to different degrees of consecration. God is not a respector of persons.

I here speak of things that many almost laugh at me when I tell them about it, like, "Those aren't sins....you should hear what I did." Well, they don't know, but the "innocent" books like Lord of the Rings and other such similar nonsense led me to worse sins to the point that I am ashamed to even name them, and even got banned off a "Christian" forum one time for listing some of them. And I KNOW that these "innocent" books that some Christians even use as a teaching tool these days,were the biggest root cause leading to those sins, because they are absolutely saturated with the occult, including even C.S. Lewis. I can trace a specific chain of events back to Tolkien, Lewis' best buddy, and the Lord of the Rings, and the manner in which I justified continuing to ignore the "still small voice" telling me not to read it any more, along with other games and books.

But as stated, God is not respector of persons. The Spirit of God absolutely does not let me get away with ANYTHING without immediate and total conviction.

One time, one of my buddies had "convinced" me to go with him to a bar, "You don't have to drink anything, just go with me." Well, by the time I took the first step in the place, the Holy Spirit had already told me, "Get out now." I couldn't have taken another step in that place if I wanted to.

I never was one who listened to secular music very often, but there was at time around the time I was going to college that I did for a while, but his was right in the middle of one of my worst backslidings ever, in which I did all those hideous things that people ban me from a christian forum for admiting. But I have gotten to the place, or rather God has gotten me there, where he will immediately convict me and I do not dare disobey. I took all those books and games, even the most "innocent" ones, even the "historical" ones, and threw them away. The radio stays tuned to Christian radio, and half the time the Lord doesn't even want me listening to those, because they are so worldly and fake.

But Tolkien was a huge snare for me, (and really for all christians, they just don't admit it, just as I did not admit it). Those books were a huge snare for me because the devil used them as a wedge to bring me to worse and worse forms of occult, and Tokien's books ARE entirely occultic, no matter whether or not he was a "christian".

Oh but, "Every Christian" was doing it, as they are so many other deceptive things. Why? Because they aren't consecrated to God as they should be. This is part of the reason we have so high of a divorce rate among "christians". Do what "we" want to do, and just make up some excuse why it isn't a "sin" for us to do it. "That might be wrong for someone else, but its not wrong for me. "I" can handle it."

We always want to justify why it is not a sin to do something, but in reality, it is a sin.

God has one law. What is wrong for me is also wrong for you.

Ultimately, this sort of thing is the same problem as the children of Israel in the wilderness. "We were better off in Egypt, lets go back there, at least theres food and we were 'at peace'."

So you run from yourself, having seen your sins and anger, which God was revealing to you, and instead of running to the foot of the Cross, you run back to "Egypt". Whether "Egypt" goes by the name of Tolkien, or Super Mario, or Black Sabbath, or a drug or alcohol, doesn't matter. Its still "egypt" and you end up just as much a slave as you originally were.

Now, forsake "Egypt" and you will find the Hivites and the Amalekites are still there waiting for "round 2".

 

[Nadiine]

Wade that's EXACTLY what I go thru w/ my stuff.

Oh sure a few songs can't be "evil".... but when God is convicting you of them, they become evil if you refuse to let go of them.

I also went thru the video game idolatry that God made me get rid of too.

And they all do one thing, keep us content & happy being involved in them & further away from Him in what you call consecration.
Most of the content of them isn't Godly either. The games I had had alot of sorcery & demons in them. I was an AVID fan of Doom. FUN FUN FUN.

I do miss those games, they're fun and addictive, but God won't give me peace in going back to that stuff.

I'm not convicted on secular music - just certain bands & songs.

That's what this boils down to tho and I agree w/ you in what this stuff collectively does in our life.
Instead of being compliant & obedient to the Lord, we get strongholds in rebellion and get more worldly. It's a common pattern.

& if we aren't getting conviction on any of these types of things by God, we should be worried for our spiritual condition.
How much do people want to put the Lord first? In the end, how much of this "STUFF" is lasting or worth anything in God's kingdom?
none of it.

 

[Wade Smith]

Wade that's EXACTLY what I go thru w/ my stuff.

Oh sure a few songs can't be "evil".... but when God is convicting you of them, they become evil if you refuse to let go of them.

I also went thru the video game idolatry that God made me get rid of too.

And they all do one thing, keep us content & happy being involved in them & further away from Him in what you call consecration.
Most of the content of them isn't Godly either. The games I had had alot of sorcery & demons in them. I was an AVID fan of Doom. FUN FUN FUN.

I do miss those games, they're fun and addictive, but God won't give me peace in going back to that stuff.

Well of course, the devil is a fool, but he isn't "stupid" or "retarded".

Video games start off with something so "innocent" as super mario, throwing fireballs and whatever (i.e. fantasticized sorcery.) And "Zelda", of course.

"Oh, but its ok...its a story of 'good' vs 'evil'. Its not a sin..."

Oh? But why isn't it? The only thing that separates the "good" guy from the "bad" is the label...both are sorcerers....

Then it eventually becomes "dungeons and dragons" and "Warcraft 3/world of warcraft", which almost everyone ends up playing, both of which are absolutely filled with demonism and paganism of every sort. Of course, I was very good at those too, and even recently just a few years ago, in one case, was STILL struggling with this bondage. I do not exaggerate, on one of the recent dungeons and dragons games, just before I threw everthing away, (which I had actually done several times,) I was absolutely one of the best players in the world. Still have pictures posted on one of my accounts, where I have forgotten the password, showing how to beat all the "hardest" fights in the game on hard mode without getting hit, or else taking almost no hits...fights most players can't win at all... on "easy".

Of course, all D&D traces its roots directly to tolkien's version of "high fantasy".

Of course, they aren't "real" gods or demons, etc, but then, no false god is "real"...baal worshippers worshipped what amounted to a childhood fantasy, a fairy tale. Same goes for ancient Egypt, Rome, Greece, the aztecs and mayans, etc.

Idols come in every shape and form, whether we call them "gods" or "hobbies".

Many are sinful in and of themselves:
most secular music
most video games
most novels (especially "romance" or "high fantasy")
most television programming or movies
drugs, alcohol, cigarettes (I know, people try to debate this)

But anything, even "good" things can become an idol.
Your spouse can be an idol, usually is the biggest one in your life.
Your parent or child or job or church or pastor or congregation can be idols, to name a few more.

Like I said, the devil isn't "stupid". As stated, I was even very "good" at that sort of thing, the games. One of the main things that was a cornerstone of stumbling, along with tolkien and those games, was the collectible card game, "Magic the Gathering", which I was also "good" at, though I hardly even played it. I honestly could have been a world class player at that game with some practice, I once threw a deck together and went to a state tournament, and almost won having not even practiced with it, but that is what the devil tried to pull me into. It led to the very brink of me turning from God at one point, really at more than one point. And "Tolkien" was the wedge, or one of the wedges, that satan always used to bring me back to it.

There is something about both video games and collectible card games that gives the person a sense of power and escape, which is absolutely demonic in nature. Moreover, because of the mechanics of these games, they are incredibly hard to even "forget". You have almost all senses involved: sight, touch, sound, and of course "problem solving" so that your brain memorizes them anyway.

One can memorize the lyrics of a secular song, or memorize a video game's level's to every detail (particularly in competitive multiplayer games such as FPS and RTS where it is important to know every possible detail of the "map" and every way to use it against the opponent.) One can memorize these things easily, but forgetting them, and memorizing things that actually matter, such as the Bible, seems to take a life time.

Why? Because it is demonic in nature. It is a stronghold, and it is very easy to eat that fruit from the forbidden tree, but once eaten, "The wages of sin is death".

"The gift of God is eternal life." True, but even Paul said all we get in this life is "first fruits".

It can take a few minutes to build a stronghold.
I can take a lifetime to get rid of it completely, though not always. Some are delivered miraculously and never touch it again.

 

[Nadiine]

It sounds like you were in it longer than I was. I got zapped before I played the Warcraft game I bought.
I bought it on sale but was still playing another game & didn't get to it yet.
That's when things in my life 'hit the fan'. I won't go all into it - but those games literally brought demonic spirits into our home while I had them & was playing them.
My husband & I were newly going to church together at the time & our marriage took a total dump into verbal abuse & resentments... anyways,
I got a crash course what these more demonic games bring to us in our spiritual lives.
I went into deep depression & oppression and I won't even go into what levels that was at.

& ya I can relate to what you talk about too becuz I was literally dreaming some of my games - ways out or around something... shooting something or casting spells
it was like meditation on the game; mulling it over on where treasures might be, etc.
& ya, even Zelda - I LOVED that game, but sorcery at the roots. They suck you in. I do believe that stuff brings demonic attack onto us.
(all the spiritual warfare info on it explains that) -

so........ ya,this is what led me to trying to make people aware of this stuff. It's no wonder our country is falling into so much paganism today.
These games that so many play are full of it - same with movies - how about Harry Potter?

We can either separate from it, or dabble in it - but it comes with a high price imo. God doesn't let me get away with much.
In one way it's a curse, in another way its a pure blessing to be cared for and called away from it for my safety.

I consider it something I have to give up - maybe other people won't be called to give up some things - that's btwn. them & God.
But we all know deep down if we're serious and honest, that God is convicting us on things we need to drop.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Ultimately, this sort of thing is the same problem as the children of Israel in the wilderness. "We were better off in Egypt, lets go back there, at least theres food and we were 'at peace'."

So you run from yourself, having seen your sins and anger, which God was revealing to you, and instead of running to the foot of the Cross, you run back to "Egypt". Whether "Egypt" goes by the name of Tolkien, or Super Mario, or Black Sabbath, or a drug or alcohol, doesn't matter. Its still "egypt" and you end up just as much a slave as you originally were.

Now, forsake "Egypt" and you will find the Hivites and the Amalekites are still there waiting for "round 2".

Excellent! What truth!