Why do we pray?

[com7fy8]

I often find myself asking God for non-spiritual things, as I imagine a lot of people do; financial or job security, good decision on a big purchase, healing, etc. recently, I have been wondering if it makes any difference.

In prayer, you can find yourself evaluating if God wants you to pray that. And we can seek God's correction. All those things have to do with what God's will for you is, and we do pray for God to do His will in our lives So, I would say go for it and pray for and about those things.

And it does say to make our requests made known to God > Philippians 4:6-7 > but do it "with thanksgiving", including for all we do have; "and be content with such things as you have" (in Hebrews 13;5). If we are praying in sharing with our Father in His love (Jude 20-21, Romans 5:5), we are already so deeply satisfied with Him; but if we are praying like He is distant and out there somewhere and maybe He does and maybe He doesn't care, then we have not in prayer started with our caring Father (1 Peter 5:7) and with our attention in sensitive and intimate sharing with Him . . . in which case our prayer needs to be first about correction so we are with Him in His love.

I'm convinced of the need to pray for spiritual development but even the Bible says that that's all we need to ask for "and all these things shall be added unto you."

He did not say not to ask for them, but to "first" (Matthew 6:33) be seeking God and His kingdom. And our Apostle Paul says God's kingdom is "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (in Romans 14:17). "God is not anti-material."

God knows me and my future and always has even before I was born.

And He says to pray. He wants us to share with Him, to interact with Him about what He is doing. Prayer can have us becoming more and more personal with God . . . not distant and making Him just theoretical

If He truly loves me (which He does) then He will do whatever is best for me and my family in the big picture.

This is good to understand, but consider that in His love for us He has us praying . . . with trust and thanksgiving, knowing He is doing more and better than things we might be able to wish for. Our praying can help to keep us in touch with how God is the One who knows what is good and He is able to guide us and our lives the best way. And I keep discovering how He keeps doing more and better even than whatever and whoever I might "lose" in my life or fear losing. But I find this comes best with unconditional trust and total not trying to hold on to myself or anything or anyone, but totally offer myself for how He has me submit to Him and how He rules me in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, in prayer I do not trust any thing or way or feeling or thinking or decision which is not in the peace of God ruling in me. This refusing of what is not perfect peace is included in my prayer activity, and I trust God to have me succeed in this > Philippians 2:13.

God knows me and my future and always has even before I was born.

So, He can give you surprises to prayer, giving more and better than all you are concerned about You might read our Apostle Paul's prayer for us > Ephesians 3:14-21.

If that's not in line with what I see as good in my nearsighted vision, God won't grant me my request.

Amen; and we can learn from what does work out.

Also...Why would you need to pray to give him thanks? Doesn't he already know all your thoughts? Apparently, god knows whenever you think lustful or impure thoughts...surely he can tell whenever you feel thankful without you needing to pray it to him?

What you are thinking can be the "prayer" which God is listening to.

People pray for basically one reason...control.

So, in prayer we can learn to do better, seeking our Father's correction of how we can pray for control and mostly about me myself and I and my favorite people; love's prayer is about loving and caring about any and all people; so we need correction so we are in His all-loving way of praying > Matthew 5:46 > Hebrews 12:4-11 > Jude 20-21.

He prayed and prayed for god to make him straight because he was taught that god would help him. This never happened...so he blamed himself, and the cycle of self-loathing and despair continued. Its a shame really.

In prayer about how I need to change, I need to first be trusting God and not making it all about what I can do for myself. If I am guilt-tripping my own self, I am depending on myself; and so my prayer is not with trust. And for wrong stuff, it takes time for God to change my character. So, I keep needing to pray for His correction, and not only for some one item which is a problem for how I might want to see myself and live my life. I need correction for all He wants.

The same people who tell you god doesn't grant wishes ask for stuff from god all the time.

There is a difference between prayer being a wish list, only, and praying about needs and problems.

 

[SkyWriting]

Confirmation bias?

Not under examination.

 

[SkyWriting]

I often wonder what's stopping Christians - or believers of any faith for that matter - in asking for a end to world hunger, poverty, cancer, etc when they pray. After all, Mathew 18.19 is pretty clear that you just ask.

"Just" is not in what you've read.
The conditions are few, but critical.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Not under examination.

Apparently, statistically, there is no difference in outcomes after praying (to any god) or not praying.

 

[asherahSamaria]

"Just" is not in what you've read.
The conditions are few, but critical.

Yet those "conditions" have apparently never been met.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Prayer makes people into a prayerful community. Thats proven. Prayerful communities act differently from non prayerful ones, so prayer does make a difference.

But its ok, we have science now...

You can soften your hearts with test tubes and dissections?

I wonder which class has the best behavior, religious studies or science?

 

[SkyWriting]

Yet those "conditions" have apparently never been met.

Many times, for me.
http://www.christianforums.com/search/1086533/?q=answered+prayer&o=relevance&c[user][0]=255843

 

[SkyWriting]

Apparently, statistically, there is no difference in outcomes after praying (to any god) or not praying.

The difference is that proper prayer receives input from the Holy Spirit
and is instantly answered. Only the person praying experiences
the timing of receiving the prayer, and then getting it answered.
This eliminates any testing through special methods (and avoids
any manipulation of football scores.)

 

[asherahSamaria]

The difference is that proper prayer receives input from the Holy Spirit
and is instantly answered. Only the person praying experiences
the timing of receiving the prayer, and then getting it answered.
This eliminates any testing through special methods (and avoids
any manipulation of football scores.)

So again - if it works why has nobody prayed for the end to world hunger, poverty, cancer etc?

 

[SkyWriting]

So again - if it works why has nobody prayed for the end to world hunger, poverty, cancer etc?

People have the power to receive prayers from God and have them answered.
They don't have any control over what God has planned outside of what He
already answered, knowing what your going to pray for in the future.

I'll give you an example. I had a prayer answered as I was driving cross
country once. I prayed and the prayer was instantly answered. But
the prayer had been answered weeks before by a farmer flattening his
field so I was able to pull off the road. But I didn't get the prayer until
just before I came to the clearing.

That's why you can't test prayer, because God answers prayers before
they are prayed. God doesn't use the cause, then effect method.

 

[asherahSamaria]

People have the power to receive prayers from God and have them answered.
The don't have any control over what God has planned.

So it doesn't really work then - pity.

 

[com7fy8]

Apparently, statistically, there is no difference in outcomes after praying (to any god) or not praying.

I do not personally know the people you are talking about, who were tested. So, I can't help you about them. But I do know I can pray and within moments God gets rid of perverted and violent and immoral stuff from me, and then I can get into peace and be guided by Him in how to love people, instead. I do need correction; I pray for correction, and He does better with me, than I can try to get myself to do.

And in praying for correction, you can't have a "back door", of some time limit. Trusting God is for life. If you use people whose prayer does not work, your statistics will come out that their prayer did not work.

And, in us, we have a character "electromagnet" which can attract us only to people we accept and we can use for what we want. So, if someone is deeply are locked-in on wanting prayer and faith to be false, this can help a person to be able to find and perceive only people who are failing, so the person can justify one's prejudice that prayer fails.

And it appears that you are saying that you have not been able to perceive who is successful in prayer and faith. There are plenty of counterfeits who Satan's kingdom has in place, in order to make it look like there is no real deal with God.

And terrorists can try to flood a country's economy with fake money, in order to bring down that nation's economy. Using counterfeits is a basic strategy even which humans use against their enemies; this can include how ones use counterfeit statistics in order to attack real Christianity, "of course". Satan has plenty of counterfeit Christians, as you appear to be discovering. And worldly statistical studies can use studies of the counterfeits, knowingly or unknowingly doing this to discredit true Christianity.

In Christian prayer, we are most about seeking God for Himself. This "might" not be something you can measure in a statistical study. In prayer, we are in a process of sensing, not only talking. We sense for how our Father rules us in His peace in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

But this requires that we be deeply corrected, more and more for years and decades, including what we stop doing in order to be able to obey God in His peace. So, this all takes prayer and "sacrifices", seeking God for how He corrects us.

By the way, in order to have successful prayer and seeking God, we need to sacrifice in many ways how our attention can go elsewhere. There are a lot of "attention sins" which need to be corrected.

So - - praying for people who have mainly been concerned only about themselves, then, is not going to do much, in a study, then. There are plenty of nice religious people, but they can be mainly concerned about only their own selves and certain favorite love idols. But Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) So, in praying, we need God's correction so we become truly all-loving people, and not only being nice so others will be nice to us while we do our own thing.

There are a lot of problems which have happened because of us living selfishly; so if we just pray for the convenience of making these troubles go away so we can keep on living mainly for our own selves, such praying can be "automatically" not successful. Even our Apostle Paul, I think, had a run-in with how Jesus was not going to grant him a miracle of convenience > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15.

 

[SkyWriting]

So it doesn't really work then - pity.

It works fine. But the results come before one gets the prayer.
It's astonishing when one is tuned in to the Holy Spirit.
And it works for all religions, the same.

 

[asherahSamaria]

I do not personally know the people you are talking about, who were tested. So, I can't help you about them. But I do know I can pray and within moments God gets rid of perverted and violent and immoral stuff from me, and then I can get into peace and be guided by Him in how to love people, instead. I do need correction; I pray for correction, and He does better with me, than I can try to get myself to do.

And in praying for correction, you can't have a "back door", of some time limit. Trusting God is for life. If you use people whose prayer does not work, your statistics will come out that their prayer did not work.

And, in us, we have a character "electromagnet" which can attract us only to people we accept and we can use for what we want. So, if someone is deeply are locked-in on wanting prayer and faith to be false, this can help a person to be able to find and perceive only people who are failing, so the person can justify one's prejudice that prayer fails.

And it appears that you are saying that you have not been able to perceive who is successful in prayer and faith. There are plenty of counterfeits who Satan's kingdom has in place, in order to make it look like there is no real deal with God.

And terrorists can try to flood a country's economy with fake money, in order to bring down that nation's economy. Using counterfeits is a basic strategy even which humans use against their enemies; this can include how ones use counterfeit statistics in order to attack real Christianity, "of course". Satan has plenty of counterfeit Christians, as you appear to be discovering. And worldly statistical studies can use studies of the counterfeits, knowingly or unknowingly doing this to discredit true Christianity.

In Christian prayer, we are most about seeking God for Himself. This "might" not be something you can measure in a statistical study. In prayer, we are in a process of sensing, not only talking. We sense for how our Father rules us in His peace in our hearts >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

But this requires that we be deeply corrected, more and more for years and decades, including what we stop doing in order to be able to obey God in His peace. So, this all takes prayer and "sacrifices", seeking God for how He corrects us.

By the way, in order to have successful prayer and seeking God, we need to sacrifice in many ways how our attention can go elsewhere. There are a lot of "attention sins" which need to be corrected.

So - - praying for people who have mainly been concerned only about themselves, then, is not going to do much, in a study, then. There are plenty of nice religious people, but they can be mainly concerned about only their own selves and certain favorite love idols. But Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) So, in praying, we need God's correction so we become truly all-loving people, and not only being nice so others will be nice to us while we do our own thing.

There are a lot of problems which have happened because of us living selfishly; so if we just pray for the convenience of making these troubles go away so we can keep on living mainly for our own selves, such praying can be "automatically" not successful. Even our Apostle Paul, I think, had a run-in with how Jesus was not going to grant him a miracle of convenience > 2 Corinthians 12:7-15.

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

I was thinking about the above study that seems to show that prayer had no effect - in a controlled experiment. They were praying for other peoples recovery - not their own.

"And worldly statistical studies can use studies of the counterfeits, knowingly or unknowingly doing this to discredit true Christianity" - Of course if you are going to throw a boogy man (Satan) into the mix then I guess you can come up with a justification for anything. Then you have to justify why God doesn't just step in and negate that boogy man - and that's down the "problem of evil" route - and round and round we go

 

[asherahSamaria]

It works fine. But the results come before one gets the prayer.
It's astonishing when one is tuned in to the Holy Spirit.
And it works for all religions, the same.

"And it works for all religions, the same."- Would that not suggest some form of self generating "happy state" - reinforced by confirmation bias?

I've no doubt "praying" for some people releases all the endorphins etc, in the same way doing other "feel good" things do too. But there doesn't seem to be any outward, measurable repeatable, scientifically testable manifestation of those wishes beyond what you'd get with random chance.

 

[com7fy8]

http://web.med.harvard.edu/sites/RELEASES/html/3_31STEP.html

I was thinking about the above study that seems to show that prayer had no effect - in a controlled experiment. They were praying for other peoples recovery - not their own.

Thank you for being specific. And I "get" what you might mean, by saying they were praying for people other than themselves, so we could say the praying was not selfish. And, of course, it "helps" to pray unselfishly; so this would be an important factor in a study.

But I have been told there were studies done, in which prayed-for people did better

I will offer you something. The character of the prayed-for people can effect how well he or she benefits from the prayer, especially deeply . . . spiritually and emotionally. I understand that possibly you do not believe in the existence of spiritual beings, in which case, "of course", you "might" be prejudiced against the possibility that how a person is spiritually could effect how prayer for that person works well or not much.

But I also understand how God "works in mysterious ways". It may be that an unreceptive person does not benefit in an obvious and direct way, but there can be things in the person's life which are there because of the prayer for the person. For example, the value of having a really loving friend come to visit is immense, so the prayed-for person has an example of how to love, which the person could greatly need, more than only getting physically better. So, even if the prayed-for person's body stays on hold, medically, the answer could be God has a really good example person share with the prayed-for person, so the person can learn how to love and not only use his or her healed body for continued selfish living.

I said >

And worldly statistical studies can use studies of the counterfeits, knowingly or unknowingly doing this to discredit true Christianity

And, to this, you say >

- Of course if you are going to throw a boogy man (Satan) into the mix then I guess you can come up with a justification for anything.

We understand that there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) So, if I talk about Satan, I also am thinking about how his evil and selfish spirit is indeed very busy in people, wrecking them with cruel and dictatorial feelings and passions of fears and lusts so they stay weak so they can suffer and do not find out how to love. So, for me, I see this, how I myself can be messed-with by unloving stuff in me and in others. And we need in prayer to seek our Father's correction so we become "strong in the Lord and in the power of His might" (in Ephesians 6:10) against such sin-sickening stuff. So, this is not only a theoretical justification thing, for me.

Then you have to justify why God doesn't just step in and negate that boogy man - and that's down the "problem of evil" route - and round and round we go

Well, I do not "have" to justify God. He is practical, I consider; so why has He not just negated Satan and the selfish spirit causing evil? This world is where He is keeping all that evil stuff, but it is on its way to the flaming sewer. Fire will control Satan and evil people, "then".

And in prayer, we care about wrong people. Caring is good for us, making us in love, instead of under the power of wrong people to make us hurt and suffering and confused or stupid enough to suppose we can control them with less than fire. So, prayer helps to keep us with God and how He is in overall control. Even in this evil world, with prayer we can get His correction bringing His love's perfection > Jude 20-21, 1 John 4:17, Philippians 2:14-16.

So, we can negate Satan and evil, not "only" by taking them out of existence or something like that, but we negate evil by becoming strong in love's prayer which makes us immune against how evil would mess us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, love's prayer against evil and for our own correction does us this good

 

[SkyWriting]

"And it works for all religions, the same."- Would that not suggest some form of self generating "happy state" - reinforced by confirmation bias?

I have no idea. You should test.

 

[Dave RP]

Hi everyone, new member here. I joined because I have been struggling with a thought recently and wanted to see what others thought.

I often find myself asking God for non-spiritual things, as I imagine a lot of people do; financial or job security, good decision on a big purchase, healing, etc. recently, I have been wondering if it makes any difference.

I'm convinced of the need to pray for spiritual development but even the Bible says that that's all we need to ask for "and all these things shall be added unto you." God knows me and my future and always has even before I was born. If He truly loves me (which He does) then He will do whatever is best for me and my family in the big picture. If that's not in line with what I see as good in my nearsighted vision, God won't grant me my request. What would be the point of specific prayer then? Should I simply ask God to do what's best? Could I possibly change God's mind about whether someone receiving healing or passing on? Getting a promotion or not? Moving or not? Any thoughts are appreciated.

You pray because you think it makes a difference. Every Christian person faced with adversity will pray that God helps them, God chooses not to, if it suits him. Good old God, your child dies, your friends doesn't...... He's very choosey about who he helps.

 

[asherahSamaria]

Thank you for being specific. And I "get" what you might mean, by saying they were praying for people other than themselves, so we could say the praying was not selfish. And, of course, it "helps" to pray unselfishly; so this would be an important factor in a study.

But I have been told there were studies done, in which prayed-for people did better

I will offer you something. The character of the prayed-for people can effect how well he or she benefits from the prayer, especially deeply . . . spiritually and emotionally. I understand that possibly you do not believe in the existence of spiritual beings, in which case, "of course", you "might" be prejudiced against the possibility that how a person is spiritually could effect how prayer for that person works well or not much.

But I also understand how God "works in mysterious ways". It may be that an unreceptive person does not benefit in an obvious and direct way, but there can be things in the person's life which are there because of the prayer for the person. For example, the value of having a really loving friend come to visit is immense, so the prayed-for person has an example of how to love, which the person could greatly need, more than only getting physically better. So, even if the prayed-for person's body stays on hold, medically, the answer could be God has a really good example person share with the prayed-for person, so the person can learn how to love and not only use his or her healed body for continued selfish living.

I said >
And, to this, you say >We understand that there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2) So, if I talk about Satan, I also am thinking about how his evil and selfish spirit is indeed very busy in people, wrecking them with cruel and dictatorial feelings and passions of fears and lusts so they stay weak so they can suffer and do not find out how to love. So, for me, I see this, how I myself can be messed-with by unloving stuff in me and in others. And we need in prayer to seek our Father's correction so we become "strong in the Lord and in the power of His might" (in Ephesians 6:10) against such sin-sickening stuff. So, this is not only a theoretical justification thing, for me. Well, I do not "have" to justify God. He is practical, I consider; so why has He not just negated Satan and the selfish spirit causing evil? This world is where He is keeping all that evil stuff, but it is on its way to the flaming sewer. Fire will control Satan and evil people, "then".

And in prayer, we care about wrong people. Caring is good for us, making us in love, instead of under the power of wrong people to make us hurt and suffering and confused or stupid enough to suppose we can control them with less than fire. So, prayer helps to keep us with God and how He is in overall control. Even in this evil world, with prayer we can get His correction bringing His love's perfection > Jude 20-21, 1 John 4:17, Philippians 2:14-16.

So, we can negate Satan and evil, not "only" by taking them out of existence or something like that, but we negate evil by becoming strong in love's prayer which makes us immune against how evil would mess us >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

So, love's prayer against evil and for our own correction does us this good

So, prayer helps to keep us with God and how He is in overall control - I completely understand that the individual takes comfort from the ritual - and that it helps reinforce the belief. That's doesn't seem to translate out into "reality" though.


I understand that possibly you do not believe in the existence of spiritual beings, in which case, "of course", you "might" be prejudiced against the possibility that how a person is spiritually could effect how prayer for that person works well or not much - It more than possibly - I'd put it in the definitely category

God "works in mysterious ways" - Just for your information, for an atheist, that phrase means - I have no answers to difficult questions and even through evidence seems to point to the opposite of what I believe I want to continue believing anyway because it makes me feel good so I'll mentally just gloss over it.

Caring is good for us - absolutely. Excepting those with mental health issues, and those who have been indoctrinated to think otherwise, everyone seems to feel good in caring for others - to the benefit of all. That's how we have evolved as a social species.

Nobody has yet managed to address the question relating the the OP question - Why do we pray when the evidence suggests that responses to prayer are not statistically significant - no matter the religion (or even wishful thinking for atheists etc) ? Above and beyond the feel good factor of the supplicant anyway. Particularly as the Bible says you just have to ask - I know you are introducing conditions to that passage now - but to me that's just those "mysterious ways" phrase again.

 

[com7fy8]

Nobody has yet managed to address the question relating the the OP question - Why do we pray when the evidence suggests that responses to prayer are not statistically significant - no matter the religion (or even wishful thinking for atheists etc) ? Above and beyond the feel good factor of the supplicant anyway. Particularly as the Bible says you just have to ask - I know you are introducing conditions to that passage now - but to me that's just those "mysterious ways" phrase again.

When I say God works in mysterious ways, I do not just mean that I can't give you an answer.

For only one example > I might pray about if God wants me to have a wife. Then, instead of getting a wife, I get more and more Jesus lady friends who all help me to find out how to love. This is not getting a wife for what I want, maybe, but getting much better and for what God wants, since He cares about us better than we care about our own selves. So, He works "mysteriously", meaning we in our nature are not able to see the better good He is doing for us, but at some point it can be revealed, after we have been corrected so we can see and appreciate what He is doing for us. God's working in mysterious ways includes how it works out for our good which better than what we have been thinking about and better than for a while we were able to see.

And this is a kind of thing which a limited prayer statistical study would not be able to measure very well. God has answered my prayer about if I should have a wife, but discovering all my lady friends has taken "a while", and they have been doing me good for decades. And now I have had a lady who has been better than a wife I might have hoped for; we have stayed with each other about two and a half years, though we have not married and we have been moral. There was no way I saw this coming > it was a mystery which God has been preparing until He brought it into the open.

We both needed a lot of correction to prepare us so we would be able to stay with each other. So, while God was correcting us, He was working in mysterious ways toward what we did not see coming. And it is His answer to my praying - - praying likely for longer than a research study might have for a study period.

So, this would be just one sample-example, of my experience.