Why do we ignore some scriptures?

[TheArtguy58]

You and I are temporal beings and therefore we see things in terms of past, present and future. But God lives in eternity where such distinctions are about as helpful as asking what the peal of a bell smells like or the laughter of a child tastes like. What God has done is what God is doing and what God is going to do. They are all one and the same moment. So, when a person comes to faith in Christ is not something that God predetermines at some future point in time. It is part of God's eternal now, just as we are responsible for nailing (present tense) Christ to the cross, even though it was set from the foundation of the world. And when we say "YES" to this eternal offering of it happens at the same point in time in which the world fell into sin and was redeemed from sin at two different trees. So, it legitimately can be said to be our destiny and yet each of us makes the choice just as freely as Adam did because the cross regains that freedom for us.

I am one of those people who see God as existing temporally. He does experience time and there is never a set future only the here and the now. This does not detract from his omnipotence or omniscience. God has all the control he wishes to exercise, and knows everything that has ever happened up until this moment. The future he can see, in his omniscience, as every probability that will ever be. But because he has granted human kind true free will he does not know which probability we will take.
For God to exist outside of time with past, present and future all one and the same is to trap him in a bubble like an ancient insect trapped in amber. He has no control, fait accompli.
Predestination limits God in the same way, it takes away his choice and responses reducing them to mechanical acts.
But he does have control and because he is free of the restraints of time he can hear our prayers and respond to them, reacting in the moment to give the response that he knows is best.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

God's omnipresence would seem to indicate that God is not trapped within the arrow of time. Since scripture records God as being already present in the beginning, and since Christ is specifically given the title the Alpha and Omega, and sense God is the author and creator of all things, it makes more sense to me to see him as outside of time than traveling through it. I understand time itself to be a part of creation just as much as the rest of the laws and properties of physics such as gravity and magnetic force. For God to be living within the arrow of time would seem to imply that there was a time when God was not. And that implication runs contrary to my understanding of the nature of God revealed in scripture.

 

[TheArtguy58]

Well, we are going to have to agree to disagree.

God's omnipresence would seem to indicate that God is not trapped within the arrow of time. Since scripture records God as being already present in the beginning, and since Christ is specifically given the title the Alpha and Omega, and sense God is the author and creator of all things, it makes more sense to me to see him as outside of time than traveling through it. I understand time itself to be a part of creation just as much as the rest of the laws and properties of physics such as gravity and magnetic force. For God to be living within the arrow of time would seem to imply that there was a time when God was not. And that implication runs contrary to my understanding of the nature of God revealed in scripture.

Oh we can disagree cheerfully. If everybody thought alike then one of the two people in a conversation would be a waste of time.

When we speak of living within the arrow of time we are referring to moving in one direction, into the future, so here we are essentially talking about causality effects. An event can not happen on its own, it must be caused by something, another event, a causality preceding it, a doer (sometimes God) acting on the present to make the future. The future does not exist until it becomes the present. Consequently as the past has already happened and the future is only probabilities there is only the here and now for man and God.
As you pointed out God is the creator of all things including time, and he created time out of causality restricting himself in order to give man free will. That was the free will of a loving God, willing to take the chance that man will not always obey or make the right choices.

 

[PaulFan]

I must admit that I am not a Methodist by conviction; it's not like I thought that the Methodists best reflected my theology so that was where I belonged.

I knew very little about Methodist doctrine when I began attending about 5 years ago at age 38. I did feel a strong calling and a desire began to grow inside of me to stop rebelling against God and to submit to His will. I agree with most of the United Methodist Church doctrine now that I know what it is. I differ on Predestination and Freewill, but I am learning, not as much difference as I had first thought.

-- So, it legitimately can be said to be our destiny and yet each of us makes the choice just as freely as Adam did because the cross regains that freedom for us.

I just re-read this post and, I agree with this statement you made. I have tried to consider either "all free-will" or "all pre-destination" being true exclusive of the other, but have been unsuccessful in reconciling that in my limited human mind. Clearly the scripture mentions both and thus both *must* be true.

So, when I consider that the paradox exists (free will exists and predestination exists even though it seems impossible) then it makes much more sense to me. I suppose this requires an understanding that God has not chosen to reveal everything to we humans.

I am one of those people who see God as existing temporally. He does experience time and there is never a set future only the here and the now.

I cannot say that I am prepared to put physical limits on God. I believe he created time and, thus, is not limited by his own creation. But, as Jesus Christ, while on Earth, then yes, he did experience time as we do.

 

[sb81]

In my layman opinion, I see the Bible teaching freewill and predestination existing together. How can the two be reconciled? One thought that comes to my mind is that we, as humans in time, have free will to make our own decisions, to accept God's gift of grace or to reject it.

However, from God's point of view, he is all knowing and knows our decisions before we make them. He knows how, when and why everything will play out in this Universe. In this sense, our destinies and paths have already been laid down, like a movie that we are all starring in, only we believe we are making the script up as we go when God wrote it before Creation.

Are you one of the elect? Are you predestined for Heaven or Hell? Only God knows, but you have the choice to accept God's gift of grace.

May God Bless You.

 

[GraceSeeker]

PaulFan, I'm impressed. You've been doing some pretty heavy thinking and shown a great deal of openness to others to have arrived at some of the views you've given expression to today.

 

[PaulFan]

In this sense, our destinies and paths have already been laid down, like a movie that we are all starring in, only we believe we are making the script up as we go when God wrote it before Creation.

Glory to God. I used this same exact analogy when discussing this issue with my wife two days ago.

May God Bless You.

And you as well.

PaulFan, I'm impressed. You've been doing some pretty heavy thinking and shown a great deal of openness to others to have arrived at some of the views you've given expression to today.

Thank you for your kind comment. If there is any reason to be impressed, let it be that God has shown mercy on such an imperfect man as me. Blessings to you.

 

[PaulFan]

Food for thought, last week I came across the following scripture in Psalms in which King David seems to suggest predestination.

~~ Psalm 139:13-16
13. For you formed my inward parts;you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. 14.I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Is that foreknowledge or forordination? I think that there is a signficant difference between the two. God, who in my mind is omniscient and lives outside of time, could easily write the complete and detailed biography of our lives including our very thoughts before even our great-great-grandparents were conceived. So, to say that everyone of the days of our lives are written in his book when as yet there are none of them doesn't necessarily imply predestination in the sense that some may understand as a form of predeterminism sans free-will.

For instance, I know that some people like to say on the occassion of a tragic death, "It was their time," often going so far as to say when your time is up, your time is up and there isn't anything you can do about it. To me that goes beyond foreknowledge to foreordaination. It is to say that not only do we not make choices without God's knowledge that we are going to do so, but that we can't make actual choices. That if I step out in front of a bus, it isn't because I was careless and didn't look both ways, but because indeed God had ordained that I should step out in front of a bus. To me, that is the same as saying that it isn't my carelessness, but God's divine decree that caused me to get hit by the bus. It isn't sin and sickness, but God's will that bad things happen to good people. It isn't Hitler that murdered 6 million Jews, but God who ordered it. And that just isn't the God I know. Nor do I believe it is the God revealed in scripture, even those verses that speak of predestination do NOT, in my view, speak of this sort of foreordination. That is why Joshua calls the nation of Israel to assemble and challenges them "choose you this day whom you shall serve..."


Let me express this another way. As a pastor I will often prepare a manuscript of my sermon. Sometimes I will prepare it in advance and then read it when delivering my sermon. But most often, I will only have notes when delivering my sermon, and then because someone wants a copy of it, I'll have a manuscript of what I said prepared after the fact. I suppose because God is omniscient and therefore has foreknowledge he could prepare a manuscript of my sermon that I delivered from my notes in advance of the actual delivery. But would that mean that my sermon was predetermined? I would argue that it does not, except in the weakest understanding of what pretedetermined means. God could, in this scenario, write the manuscript for a sermon that I was destined to give, but that would not make God's writing of the manuscript the causal agent; I would still be the author of the sermon.

Now, let's look at a Biblical example. "Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them." I'm assuming that your argument is that this doesn't apply just to the author of the Psalm, but to all of us. I am also assuming then that all of us includes both Adam and Eve. So, God saw all the days of Adam and Eve, and all the things that they would do before they did any one of them. Does that mean that God predetermined and foreordained that they would do each of those things? Does that mean that God ordered their lives in such as way that they were predetermined to eat of the tree that God commanded them not to eat of and really had no choice in the matter? If so, then God, not humanity, is the author of sin and the agent behind the fall. Clearly the scriptures present that to be a false conclusion. Therefore, it is also false to conclude that the best interpretation of the passage is to arrive at a view of predestination that requires it to be understood as predetermination and foreordination. For such a view is contradicted by scripture which says that it was by Adam (not God) that sin entered the world. And since scripture tells us that Eve was deceived, if that act was foreordained, then the true deceiver would not be the serpent but God himself. And, again, as we know from scripture that God is not the author of confusion, I would argue that he cannot therefore be the author of deception either, certainly not on this scale.

 

[PaulFan]

If so, then God, not humanity, is the author of sin and the agent behind the fall. .

I do not believe God is the "author" of sin, nor do I believe that a belief in predestination suggests God is the author of sin. In fact, a lack of belief in predestination indicates that we do not believe God is sovereign which is equally dramatic to suggest.

So, we are back at square one in a sense, repeating the same free-will vs PD arguments. I profess that I do not have all of the answers, but I think the scriptures (as I have previously quoted) do clearly indicate predestination. As for free-will and how it can exist alongside PD, I do not know how to explain it except to say, to we humans, it does appear that we also have free-will. A seeming paradox.

As for Psalm139, yes, it could also be suggesting foreknowledge.

I don't have a lot of time to put together a full, reasoned response now... will revisit this soon.

 

[TheArtguy58]

I cannot say that I am prepared to put physical limits on God. I believe he created time and, thus, is not limited by his own creation. But, as Jesus Christ, while on Earth, then yes, he did experience time as we do.

Not putting physical limits on God. I'm saying that in order for a loving God to inter-act with his creation and allow that creation to grow God willingly puts limits on his temporal existence.

Food for thought, last week I came across the following scripture in Psalms in which King David seems to suggest predestination.

Psalm 139:16
13. For you formed my inward parts;you knitted me together in my mother’s womb. 14.I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. 16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.
____________________________________________
Often when we read a passage we want it, we expect it, to fit to our own particular understanding of theology. This is especially true when a translated verse plucked from the middle of a self contained piece like a psalm, and credited to someone as important as King David, offers a reading that appears to back up our expectations.
A study of a reading like the 16th verse of Psalm 139, finds that the desire to apply personal doctrine creates issues when the over all meaning of the psalm and the textual problems with that particular verse are examined.
Textual analysis shows first of all that there are problems with the texts preserved transmission. There are known difficulties with how the original language was physically written in the manuscript. Even the oldest manuscripts have problems and in some cases these problems are made worse over time. In this case the oldest copies containing psalm 139 contain the same problem as later copies, apparently no one was able to solve the mystery of its meaning.
_________________________________________________________________

Psalm 139:16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed. -NRSV
________________________________________________________________

Asterisks near the end of the verse in the Hebrew writing of Psalm 139:16, are meant to show there are problems textually. This leads to differing ways of translating the verse.

Among other problems this verse is the only place in the Hebrew bible the first word of the verse is used, making that word difficult to translate because we do not have exact meaning. There is nothing to compare the word to.

Over the years Hebrew scholars have attempted to wrangle the meaning from the verse unfortunately there is not enough space here to go into the textual analysis process that looks at their reasoning. It's enough to know that more than a few have had problems with the 16th verse.

Textual problems aside, there are also problems with relationships of words in the verse and their meaning because there is no clear grammatical structure. The translated words used... "days were formed for me [not] one of them." Is a necessary guess of words that, in Hebrew, are nonsense.

The verse is problematic, but context can help. Psalms, of course have themes just as a modern hymn will have a theme that holds it together.

1 O LORD, you have searched me and known me.
2 You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away.
3 You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways.
4 Even before a word is on my tongue, O LORD, you know it completely.
5 You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me.
6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it.
7 Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, you are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea,
10 even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me fast.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light around me become night,"
12 even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness is as light to you.
13 For it was you who formed my inward parts; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes beheld my unformed substance. In your book were written all the days that were formed for me, when none of them as yet existed.

the psalm concludes with this prayer:

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart; test me and know my thoughts.
24 See if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

The theme of the psalm is established by ..."you have searched me and known me" and by the conclusion "search me…lead". The idea is that God knows all about the psalmist, hiding from God is useless. There is poetry of God weaving him into existence, the depths of the earth is metaphor for the womb. If God made him then God would know everything there is to know about him. With that he submits to God, and uses that confession as the basis of the prayer for God's guidance in the "way" of life.

It is in this context that verse 16 is read. God knows what the writer does not know about himself, he can hide nothing from God.

The last of verse 16, is not about predestination or omniscience, it is about realization. Here, the psalmist opens to God and prays for guidance, not because God predetermines, but because God knows the psalmist better then he knows himself.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I do not believe God is the "author" of sin, nor do I believe that a belief in predestination suggests God is the author of sin.

Not predestination. I have no problem with that. I said that predetermination makes God the author of sin.

Sometimes people (mistakenly in my opinion) equate predestination with predetermination. While there are isolated cases of God foreordaining things, that is not my understanding of the general meaning of predestination as presented in the scriptures. I was presenting an argument as to why it is not. It is as you said, "I (we) do not believe God is the 'author'of sin." If predestination were to be equated with predetermination it would in fact make God such. And that is why we cannot make that leap to equate predestination with predetermination, for it does an injustice to the scriptural understanding of God.

 

[PaulFan]

Not predestination. I have no problem with that. I said that predetermination makes God the author of sin.

Sometimes people (mistakenly in my opinion) equate predestination with predetermination. While there are isolated cases of God foreordaining things, that is not my understanding of the general meaning of predestination as presented in the scriptures. I was presenting an argument as to why it is not. It is as you said, "I (we) do not believe God is the 'author'of sin." If predestination were to be equated with predetermination it would in fact make God such. And that is why we cannot make that leap to equate predestination with predetermination, for it does an injustice to the scriptural understanding of God.

I will need to study the belief in predetermination further. I had assumed that it was some form of foreknowledge, but have never studied this belief in detail. I do know that some people will tell me they cannot accept predestination, but they do accept God's foreknowledge, which I assume leads to some form of predetermination as you describe it.

Your comments are interesting to me. Thank you for bringing this up. I look forward to studying it.

 

[VolRaider]

PaulFan:
I think you are mistaking total depravity with utter depravity. The latter means we are unable to generate faith, love, and repentance on our own. Many people "love" that are non-Christian - they just don't have the capacity to become better because many have never heard the Gospel. If we were utterly depraved and if we were not Christian, then there were be a heckuva lotta Buddhists and Hindus blowing up the joint! Even those non-Christians that are able to love, however, are still inclined to sin. Of course, we do both because we are human.

 

[VolRaider]

PaulFan, while I tend to side with ArtGuy and Wesley on this one, please don't leave the church. Tell your fellow congregant to read up on Whitefield, that he remained a Calvinist until his death but never left the church. if Whitefield and Wesley can remain in the same church, then you are definitely welcome!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I suppose the $20 question is, who makes them eligible, God or man?

And the Only POSSIBLE answer is that GOD does. NOBODY can came except father "Draws" them. Case closed.

We CERTAINLY have the "Free will", however, to turn our back on God, and walk away. I did it many times myself. I COULD have done it the LAST time - at the age of 20. But I didn't.

"Prevenient grace" is really just the "Wesleyan way" of saying "Holy Spirit Conviction" - where we SEE our sin, and can repent of it - should we choose to.

"My understanding, from my heart, is that the glory belongs to God for my salvation."

Agreed - and the only "Issue" that needs to be addressed, SINCE it all starts with GOD is -

Does HE call Everybody???

BUT - it's really a "Moot point" anyway. People aren't Labeled "Elect", and "Firewood", so the evangelist has got to address/consider ALL PEOPLE as though they were elect, and present the Gospel. re: 1 Cor 9:

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Obviously Paul felt that the "way was open" for "all" and styled his ministry to accommodate that scenario.

I "Blew God off" for a decade before He finally ran me to ground, and REALLY got my attention.

 

[VolRaider]

What amazes me is many evangelists who go among the masses to preach the Word of God are predestinarian. If God elected people, then what's the point of spreading the word? If they are elected, they will naturally come to God.
One of my best friends is a true blue Calvinist. He said he won't even go to church because he is either elected or he's not! If you're a true-blue double predestinarian, then this is the way to go. Quit wasting your time at church, kick back and watch some football, and let the cards fall as they may!

 

[mark46]

Over time, folks have come up with many doctrines that move people from the Path Of Life. Humanism, relativism and calvanism are the absolute worst.

The heart of evangelism to is to spread the Good News so that our brothers and sister can accept God and move along the Path of Life, to become more like God and to yes, to become more God-like. We are created in His image. Jesus died for ALL of us.

The bottom line message message of Calvinism is to accept God and his commands, but that God has determined who will accept and who will reject before the beginning of time, predestining some to hell and some to heaven.

IMHO, if the calvisnistist are right, life is an empty sham.

What amazes me is many evangelists who go among the masses to preach the Word of God are predestinarian. If God elected people, then what's the point of spreading the word? If they are elected, they will naturally come to God.
One of my best friends is a true blue Calvinist. He said he won't even go to church because he is either elected or he's not! If you're a true-blue double predestinarian, then this is the way to go. Quit wasting your time at church, kick back and watch some football, and let the cards fall as they may!

 

[Woldeyesus]

The most critical Scriptures we keep ignoring and abandoning at the cost of our own lives are variants of the same theme, viz.: firsthand knowledge of God in Christ's ultimate self-revelation of his divine identity and authority at his death on the cross developed in the following outline:

1) The "tree of life" (Gen. 2: 7-9)

2) The burning but unconsumed bush or self-sufficient fire with a promise of an encore for posterity (Ex. 3: 1-15) and

3) Christ's answer to the question, "Who are you?" (John 8: 21-28 invoking the incident of the burning bush; and Matt. 16:18 proposing a litmus test for Christ's immortality with global benefits)

The reason why we keep ignoring God is because of love for ourselves and our preference for the "tree that gives knowledge of what is good and what is bad" (Gen. 2:9), e.g., the theological doctrine of Adam's "original sin" for which we are responsible ourselves!

 

[lucaspa]

I feel I have an above average understanding of the scripture compared to others in our church congregation.

What is your understanding compared to Biblical scholars and professional theologians? That is, the ones that spend all their working time studying scripture?

Why do Methodists ignore so much of Paul's teachings?

Because Paul is not God. Also because we must consider Paul's special circumstances. Paul was not trying to construct a consistent theology; he was trying to convert as many people as fast as possible. Why? Because Paul thought the world was going to end with his generation. For Paul, there was no "long term". Look at 1 Corinthians 7.

Second, Paul's letters are responses to particular problems in particular churches. A Presbyterian friend of mine likened trying to take Paul's letters as a textbook in theology to trying to make such a textbook out of the minutes of a single church's Session meetings! Paul is dealing with individual churches with individual problems. We cannot make universals out of those.

As I study the scriptures, I see Paul teaching an unmistakable belief in predestination with salvation a gift of God. ...I believe God chooses his elect

I don't see that and, if it were true, it would mean an exclusivity that is against God's general nature. You are saying that God deliberately excludes people from salvation.

In general, there are several reasons we ignore some scripture. In some cases other areas of God's revelation show us that the scripture is wrong. This is what happens to Deuteronomy 24 by Jesus in Mark 10 and Matthew 14. It is what happens to almost the entirety of the Laws by Paul. Why do you not sell your daughter into slavery? It's part of scripture. You ignore it.

God's Creation tells us that some interpretations of scripture are wrong. For instance, scripture says in plain Hebrew in several places that the earth is immovable: Job 26:7, I Chronicles 16:30, Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Psalm 104:5. Ever since Copernicus, Kepler, and Newton, we ignore that scripture.

There are still other reasons we can go into later.