Why do we ignore some scriptures?

[GraceSeeker]

A little off topic, but only a little, a friend clued me in to this interesting magazine article today: "The Drunk and the Hypocrite." Here are a couple of paragraphs that gave me cause to think:

We carry our problems into the church the same way we carry them into a bar—they just react differently in each location. Unfortunately, the sins that exist within the walls of the Church are harder to spot.

Pride, for example, can hide incredibly well in the religious community. I rarely hear the words “I don’t know” uttered at church. And yet the triune Creator of time and space will always be wrapped in mystery and holiness. Why not start in the seat of humility? Surely all of us have gotten a few things wrong in our attempts at Christianity.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am a Methodist of 5 years. I have taken Disciple 1 and 3 and am just now completing a 10 week Disciple study on Romans. I have taken other courses at this church as well. I feel I have an above average understanding of the scripture compared to others in our church congregation.

I have read many of Wesley's sermons and I do enjoy his teachings. I understand and believe the Methodist doctrine is correct EXCEPT I am beginning to question the doctrine of prevenient grace.

As I study the scriptures, I see Paul teaching an unmistakable belief in predestination with salvation a gift of God. When I am in study groups, when this subject comes up, I notice that nearly everyone simply ignores these scriptures. They instead point to scripture that indicates free-will.

I agree with both. I believe God chooses his elect and, to the believer, the choice to follow God does seem like a free-will choice and, for all intents and purposes, it is free-will.

I'm still not entirely sure what predestination is about.

If it's that God created everyone, having decided in advance that he would reject some of his creation and never give them a chance to know him, I can't believe it, because that is not what I know, nor what the Scriptures teach, about the nature of God. My dad would never have got my mum pregnant knowing that he had every intention of rejecting and disheriting the child when it was born; wanting others, but determined to reject that particular one. Any human dad who did that would surely be branded cruel, neglectful, heartless etc etc. So there's no way, I believe, that our heavenly Father would do such a thing - he is a perfect Father and is love.

But if predestination says that God created everyone and gave us free will, knowing in advance that some people would reject him and his grace, (and knowing who) but still giving them the right to choose that, then I agree.

I know there are some verses which use the word "predestined", or a variation of that, and I know there are verses which talk about "the elect" and our election. Maybe the writers were looking for ways to esplain this concept though - that of having free will, yet God knowing what we are going to choose/say/do before we do it. That is quite deep stuff and difficult to explain or, for me, to understand. But I have great faith in the love, mercy and character of God. Scripture says that he is love, that love always perseveres, and that he is merciful wanting everyone to come to repentance.

 

[PaulFan]

I'm still not entirely sure what predestination is about.

If it's that God created everyone, having decided in advance that he would reject some of his creation and never give them a chance to know him, I can't believe it, because that is not what I know, nor what the Scriptures teach

Are you sure it is not what the scripture teaches?

Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

So, I think it is clear that the scriptures DO teach this doctrine. Many choose to ignore them, to re-interpret them differently than Paul, but they cannot say that the doctrine of predestination is not taught. It is written throughout the bible.

The doctrine of free grace teaches us that we cannot get to heaven by our works, but then, some will say that we must use our free-will to choose faith in Jesus Christ. Doesn't our choice become a "work" then, if it is not a free gift of God? And, if it is a gift of God (God intervenes to draw us to faith in Jesus Christ) then isn't this an indication of God's will and not ours (predestination)? As some have mentioned, prevenient grace is thought by many to cover this properly.

And, as I have mentioned, I do believe we have what appears to us as free-will. It seems we choose to have coffee instead of tea. We choose to take a shower instead of a bath. This seems like free-will, yes? What human can disagree? But, the scriptures also teach predestination, that is, the will of God in our salvation. We cannot deny either teaching. We must accept them lest we cherry pick from the bible what it is we wish to believe. That would be very dangerous.

I do not intend to re-open this debate because it has come full circle, but did want to respond to your specific comments which I quoted.

God bless you.

 

[TheArtguy58]

Are you sure it is not what the scripture teaches?

I do not intend to re-open this debate because it has come full circle, but did want to respond to your specific comments which I quoted.

God bless you.

It's a good debate topic, a good way of making someone really look at the way they see their theology. Take a look at this debate subject from another forum.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
‎"Nothing whatever, whether great or small, can happen to a believer, without God's ordering and permission. There is no such thing as 'chance,' 'luck' or 'accident' in the Christian's journey through this world. All is arranged and appointed by God." Bishop J.C. Ryle. 1816-1900 Anglican bishop of Liverpool.

I discovered that the Naznet Forum, a Nazarene site that many of you are familiar with, has been discussing this quote for several days now and the thinking has been pretty much all over the place. The topic of course centers on predestination and what God wills. It sounds as though the good Bishop, who left this earth over a century ago, was a believer in Hard Determinism. Paul here seems to believe in a version of Soft Determinism, an idea rejected by both Indeterminist, those who do not believe anything is predestined, and by the Hard believers who see all things as predestined or in the case of psychological determinism all things that happen are inevitable. Personally I fall into the indeterminist or Open theism side... there is yet to be a future to be predestined.
I realize this is ground that ContraMundum and others have covered but I found it interesting that two Wesleyan oriented forums were covering similar topics at the same time. The Naznet forum has been in full swing on the subject and makes for interesting reading.

 

[Strong in Him]

Are you sure it is not what the scripture teaches?

Yes - I think such a view is incompatible with what the Scripture reveals to us about the character of God.

Scripture says that God made us in his own image and breathed the breath of life into us.
It says that God saw us before we had even been born, and knows eveything about us.
It says that God is love; a loving heavenly father, who is patient, longsuffering and wants all people to repent.

God creating someone and giving them every opportunity to know, and come to, him - even though he knows that they never will; is one thing.
But creating someone in his image knowing and planning that he is going to reject them and never give them a chance to know him, or what he has done for them, is not love.

It may be that the Biblical writers were unable to understand why someone would want to reject God's love, grace and goodness, and so chose to explain it by saying that the Lord had never chosen them, or that they were unable to come to God because he did not WANT them to come to him. But as I said, that doesn't fit with the God of love, revealed to us in the Scriptures and in the person of Jesus.

So, I think it is clear that the scriptures DO teach this doctrine. Many choose to ignore them, to re-interpret them differently than Paul, but they cannot say that the doctrine of predestination is not taught. It is written throughout the bible.

I think it's true to say that God KNOWS what choice we will make - yet he always perseveres, giving us a chance to make a different one.
That is not the same as saying that God creates someone ONLY to sentence them to an eternity without him - as if the devil will get lonely by himself, so God thought he'd better create some more people,(in his own image), to keep Satan company.

 

[PaulFan]

It's a good debate topic, a good way of making someone really look at the way they see their theology.

That's a good point, ArtGuy

The Naznet forum has been in full swing on the subject and makes for interesting reading.

I'll check it out. Thanks!

 

[PaulFan]

I think it's true to say that God KNOWS what choice we will make - yet he always perseveres, giving us a chance to make a different one.
That is not the same as saying that God creates someone ONLY to sentence them to an eternity without him - as if the devil will get lonely by himself, so God thought he'd better create some more people,(in his own image), to keep Satan company.

I think that, sometimes, we try to determine God's character by using our limited human reasoning and (maybe sub-consciously) apply it to our idea of how God saves us. Well, of course we all do this to some extent.

What I'm saying is, the scripture seems clear on the subject. Paul doesn't say that God "might" have mercy on whom he will. Paul says that God "will" have mercy on whom he wills and that he does harden whom he wills. For some people, it is hard to come to terms with a God as Paul describes. I understand, I used to believe differently until I began considering the scriptures about predestination as valid truths of the bible.

God bless you.

 

[Strong in Him]

What I'm saying is, the scripture seems clear on the subject. Paul doesn't say that God "might" have mercy on whom he will. Paul says that God "will" have mercy on whom he wills and that he does harden whom he wills.

I know he doesn't - but that still doesn't fit with the Scriptural picture of a God who is love, showing enormous patience with people, giving them many chances to repent and come to him.

Read the book of Hosea; Hosea's marriage to a prostitute is symbolic of God's relationship with his people. He is in despair because his people -whom he formed, called out of Egypt and taught to walk - were lusting after other gods. Yahweh is the bridegroom, the nation is his bride - yet they had run off to commit adultery with another. Even then, we can hear God's pain; "how can I give them up?" (Hos 11:8), and he speaks of renewing and forgiving them.

Or the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah in Abraham's time. God said he would destroy them all as there was no one righteous within them. Abraham pleaded for them, and God revised his plan downward until he said, "if there are only 10 righteous people in those towns, I will spare them."

Or Jonah, who was sent to tell a non Jewish city that God was angry with them and was going to destroy them. They were spared, because they repented. As were many others in the OT; God proclaimed judgement and punishment, which was nonetheless averted if the people repented and pleaded for another chance. Even the Pharoah of Moses' time was given at least 10 chances to recognise God's power - whether he finally acknowledged God when he saw his entire army drown, we don't know.

Using another example, I make greetings cards. If I spent hours over a card, getting every single detail and colour just right, and then tore it up, or put it away in a drawer for some months and then shredded it - wouldn't you tell me that that had been a waste of time and effort? And wonder why I had taken so much care over something that I intended to destroy? Actually, I don't think that I would take much care over something which I KNEW I was going to destroy soon after finishing it. I don't want to waste my (sometimes expensive) craft materials on something which is not going to be seen or appreciated.
So why would God? We are the pinnacle of his creation, made in his image and a little lower than the angels. Why bother, if he knows he intends to send some of us to hell?


And actually, aside from all this, I am a Methodist Local Preacher; Wesley did not accept predestination, and if I started preaching it, I might be asked to leave the church for going against Methodist doctrine.

 

[PaulFan]

And actually, aside from all this, I am a Methodist Local Preacher; Wesley did not accept predestination, and if I started preaching it, I might be asked to leave the church for going against Methodist doctrine.

I understand because I have come to a belief of predestination somehow while attending a United Methodist Church and I feel rejected in some ways by many people at my church when I wish to discuss the scriptures where Paul refers to PD.

This is why I started this thread-- because I feel conflicted in my home church over this issue. Though some will say there is room for a person in the UMC who believes in predestination, I find that it hinders me because I want to teach. And if I do teach in the UMC where I am a member, and if the subject of PD comes up, I will have to speak from my heart and I don't think it will go over well. I feel like a square peg in a round hole.

I am actually considering leaving the UMC because of this, but I have not decided yet. I am taking time to make sure I am discerning God's will for me correctly.

Thanks for your input on this. Please remember me in your prayers concerning this.

 

[TheArtguy58]

I understand because I have come to a belief of predestination somehow while attending a United Methodist Church and I feel rejected in some ways by many people at my church when I wish to discuss the scriptures where Paul refers to PD.

This is why I started this thread-- because I feel conflicted in my home church over this issue. Though some will say there is room for a person in the UMC who believes in predestination, I find that it hinders me because I want to teach. And if I do teach in the UMC where I am a member, and if the subject of PD comes up, I will have to speak from my heart and I don't think it will go over well. I feel like a square peg in a round hole.

I am actually considering leaving the UMC because of this, but I have not decided yet. I am taking time to make sure I am discerning God's will for me correctly.

Thanks for your input on this. Please remember me in your prayers concerning this.

I wouldn't let it bother you as far as having different views from other members, among Methodists that's the rule. But if you want to teach that as doctrine then you might have a problem. But to be honest in our church it would not stand out, you would just have to be prepared to argue the idea out with other members. Heck, I do it all the time.

 

[PaulFan]

Or Jonah, who was sent to tell a non Jewish city that God was angry with them and was going to destroy them. They were spared, because they repented. As were many others in the OT; God proclaimed judgement and punishment, which was nonetheless averted if the people repented and pleaded for another chance. Even the Pharoah of Moses' time was given at least 10 chances to recognise God's power - whether he finally acknowledged God when he saw his entire army drown, we don't know.

I recognize what you are saying- God gives us a chance to use our free-will. I do understand this. As I mentioned once before I believe in free-will, at least in terms of my human ability to recognize and understand it. At the same time, there are a number of scripture passages which explain, quite well, the concept of God predestining our salvation....

Revelation 13:7-8 (Authored by John)
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Ephesians 1:3-14
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

1 Peter 1:1-2
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ

Three different authors-- two of which walked with Jesus, and of course, Paul who was changed in an instant on the road to Damascus-- they all refer to the will of God in our salvation.

My point is, I find evidence of BOTH free-will and predestination in the bible. How this seeming paradox exists and can be true, I do not know. But I trust God fully that it is true. Of that, I am certain.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I'm just going to interrupt this debate to say that as long as one tries to understand predestination in temperal terms, then even the best understanding of scripture is going to produce a misunderstanding of this point of theology.

You and I are temporal beings and therefore we see things in terms of past, present and future. But God lives in eternity where such distinctions are about as helpful as asking what the peal of a bell smells like or the laughter of a child tastes like. What God has done is what God is doing and what God is going to do. They are all one and the same moment. So, when a person comes to faith in Christ is not something that God predetermines at some future point in time. It is part of God's eternal now, just as we are responsible for nailing (present tense) Christ to the cross, even though it was set from the foundation of the world. And when we say "YES" to this eternal offering of it happens at the same point in time in which the world fell into sin and was redeemed from sin at two different trees. So, it legitimately can be said to be our destiny and yet each of us makes the choice just as freely as Adam did because the cross regains that freedom for us.

 

[PaulFan]

I wouldn't let it bother you as far as having different views from other members, among Methodists that's the rule. But if you want to teach that as doctrine then you might have a problem. But to be honest in our church it would not stand out, you would just have to be prepared to argue the idea out with other members. Heck, I do it all the time.

I feel a calling to teach. Aside from the thought of me teaching, then I agree with you ArtGuy, the majority of average UMC Methodists would not make an issue of it with me. I *have* discussed this issue in Disciple Class and people look at me like I have 2 heads. One woman asked me where I was coming from theologically, as if I were a heretic, and another woman simply threw her hands in the air dismissively to me as if to say the conversation is over. So, I have met a fair amount of resistance to even discussing this issue.

The large majority of time, people just don't want to talk about it which is why I said earlier in this thread that I feel people in the UMC simply ignore the PD scriptures.

God bless.

 

[GraceSeeker]

The large majority of time, people just don't want to talk about it which is why I said earlier in this thread that I feel people in the UMC simply ignore the PD scriptures.

God bless.

But what you are observing there is not unique to the UMC. The majority of people in any given church, any given denomination, are probably not going to want to enter into anything other than the most casual of conversations with you with respect to their religious views. If you were to challenge predestination at a Presbyterian Church, eternal security at a Baptist Church, papal infallibility at a Catholic Church, it wouldn't matter how much scripture you presented, I suspect the response would be the same.

 

[PaulFan]

You and I are temporal beings and therefore we see things in terms of past, present and future. But God lives in eternity

Yes, I understand what you are saying here.

where such distinctions are about as helpful as asking what the peal of a bell smells like or the laughter of a child tastes like. What God has done is what God is doing and what God is going to do. They are all one and the same moment.

Human -vs- Divine recognition of time. Yes, I get it.... God does not experience time as we humans do.

So, when a person comes to faith in Christ is not something that God predetermines at some future point in time. It is part of God's eternal now, just as we are responsible for nailing (present tense) Christ to the cross, even though it was set from the foundation of the world. And when we say "YES" to this eternal offering of it happens at the same point in time in which the world fell into sin and was redeemed from sin at two different trees. So, it legitimately can be said to be our destiny and yet each of us makes the choice just as freely as Adam did because the cross regains that freedom for us.

Wow, what a great explanation! Thank you so much, GraceSeeker.

 

[PaulFan]

But what you are observing there is not unique to the UMC. The majority of people in any given church, any given denomination, are probably not going to want to enter into anything other than the most casual of conversations with you with respect to their religious views. If you were to challenge predestination at a Presbyterian Church, eternal security at a Baptist Church, papal infallibility at a Catholic Church, it wouldn't matter how much scripture you presented, I suspect the response would be the same.

Possibly. But, in Disciple Class and other classes I have taken, the discussions are quite in depth. I do not find there is a lack of interest in, say, the concept of free grace vs legalism. But, when the subject is "election" and when my comments have come up against the Wesleyan teachings regarding free-will, there is a push against my questions unlike anything I have seen before. I feel as if I am upsetting the apple cart. Mind you, I am very respectful in a group setting, so it is not a lack of social graces which is upsetting them.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Possibly. But, in Disciple Class and other classes I have taken, the discussions are quite in depth. I do not find there is a lack of interest in, say, the concept of free grace vs legalism. But, when the subject is "election" and when my comments have come up against the Wesleyan teachings regarding free-will, there is a push against my questions unlike anything I have seen before. I feel as if I am upsetting the apple cart.

Do you ask other sets of questions with the same degree of intensity to them as you do these? If so, how are those questions received? Is there anyone else in the class besides you who presents this other view?

You see, election and predestination is NOT something that Wesleyans should be afraid to discuss. I can say that I've gone around with people so much over it that I sometimes too get tired of it -- in the here we go again variety of things -- but it isn't that I am unwilling to discuss it. It is clearly taught in scripture and there is no reason for us not to seek a proper understanding of it. But of course, a proper understanding does not imply that one has to swallow hook, line, and sinker all that some people who only read the most strongly worded passages relevant to predestination in isolation (and choose to ignore scriptures related to free agency) say that it means.

 

[PaulFan]

Do you ask other sets of questions with the same degree of intensity to them as you do these?

Yes, of course. In fact, I am much more reserved in Disciple Class when discussing this issue than I am on this forum. I feel less constrained and self conscious in a forum setting such as this. In Dis. Class, I am respectful of others, considerate not to talk too much, etc. In the course of 34 weeks, 2 hours per day, there is much discussed and I am topical. In other words, when the subject is not on predestination, I do not discuss PD. I usually add to the discussion with comments or questions, but no more than most others.

If so, how are those questions received?

Generally, very well. Most issues where there is little dissent, I find the conversation is normal. But when it comes to PD, it just seems to be some sort of sacred cow to the people who know enough to discuss it.

Is there anyone else in the class besides you who presents this other view?

There is one guy who believes similarly as I do. However, he will not stick his neck out on the issue as he seems aware that it is somewhat of a taboo subject. Our previous pastor glossed over the issue. Our current one simply tells me predestination is not correct doctrine.

You see, election and predestination is NOT something that Wesleyans should be afraid to discuss.

Agreed!

It is clearly taught in scripture and there is no reason for us not to seek a proper understanding of it.

I think so too. I can accept when people acknowledge these scriptures, even when someone says it means something different to them than it does to me. The problem I am having is the complete dismissal of these scriptures by people just for the sake of maintaining a certain belief.

But of course, a proper understanding does not imply that one has to swallow hook, line, and sinker all that some people who only read the most strongly worded passages relevant to predestination in isolation (and choose to ignore scriptures related to free agency) say that it means.

I don't think one should ignore either. I am reminded of a John Wesley quote;

No writers upon earth appear more positive than those who write on this difficult subject. Nay, the same men, who, writing upon any other subject, are remarkably modest and humble.
~~ John Wesley, Sermon #58

I hope I am and do remain humble.

 

[Strong in Him]

I understand because I have come to a belief of predestination somehow while attending a United Methodist Church and I feel rejected in some ways by many people at my church when I wish to discuss the scriptures where Paul refers to PD.

This is why I started this thread-- because I feel conflicted in my home church over this issue. Though some will say there is room for a person in the UMC who believes in predestination, I find that it hinders me because I want to teach. And if I do teach in the UMC where I am a member, and if the subject of PD comes up, I will have to speak from my heart and I don't think it will go over well. I feel like a square peg in a round hole.

I am actually considering leaving the UMC because of this, but I have not decided yet. I am taking time to make sure I am discerning God's will for me correctly.

Thanks for your input on this. Please remember me in your prayers concerning this.

That must be hard for you, and I admire you for considering leaving a place which is obviously dear to you, for the sake of the truth that you see in Scripture.

I must admit that I am not a Methodist by conviction; it's not like I thought that the Methodists best reflected my theology so that was where I belonged.
I started going to the church because of illness, (it was more convenient than our Anglican church, being smaller, with a later service time). I'd only been there for a month or two when the Local Preacher there suggested maybe I too could preach. But I do agree with their position on this - I was scared that I'd get all the way through the training and then find they held some doctrine which I could just not accept. I don't actually know what I'd do if this were to be the case, yet I still believed that God was calling me to preach.

God bless you.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm just going to interrupt this debate to say that as long as one tries to understand predestination in temperal terms, then even the best understanding of scripture is going to produce a misunderstanding of this point of theology.

You and I are temporal beings and therefore we see things in terms of past, present and future. But God lives in eternity where such distinctions are about as helpful as asking what the peal of a bell smells like or the laughter of a child tastes like. What God has done is what God is doing and what God is going to do. They are all one and the same moment. So, when a person comes to faith in Christ is not something that God predetermines at some future point in time. It is part of God's eternal now, just as we are responsible for nailing (present tense) Christ to the cross, even though it was set from the foundation of the world. And when we say "YES" to this eternal offering of it happens at the same point in time in which the world fell into sin and was redeemed from sin at two different trees. So, it legitimately can be said to be our destiny and yet each of us makes the choice just as freely as Adam did because the cross regains that freedom for us.

Great post. That was helpful, thanks.