Why do the OT and NT contradict so much?

[Rick Otto]

Try this one on for size, R3q...
God was willin' to take what He dished out.

 

[R3quiem]

Tell me.... What about the non religious wars?

They far outnumber the religious wars BTW...
But could you explain to me why the Assyrians overtook and killed over cities?

How about the Greeks?

WHAT I SAID was that they won because IT was decreed by God to do so.

WHAT YOU Are not doing is asking WHY they were at war.

You might see the religious impliactions...
But you are being blind to the secular wars.

SO care to share with me why you havent offered an opinion on that?

The world is filled with religion or lack thereof.

DID you know that it was the athiests who killed the most ppl ever?

Listing them;
Hitler [no he was not christian] 11 million dead.
Stalin 41 million dead
Mao Sae Tung 80 million dead.

So..who kills more?

Should it come down to who kills more? Why does an omnipotent God have to solve all of his problems the same way humans like to do so much, through violence? He may as well just be a really powerful human then.

If we want to get technical, we' have to question how many people were living in the world when God decided to flood it and kill everyone.

 

[R3quiem]

Try this one on for size, R3q...
God was willin' to take what He dished out.

I must admit, that was a pretty ingenious answer.

Doesn't exactly answer any questions, but still, nice point.

 

[R3quiem]

If you lived back in the days of the OT, do you think you would have killed a baby if you believed that God wanted you to do it?

I'm interested to see if anyone will answer this question.

 

[Rick Otto]

It levels the playin' field.
He as Creator is the Judge & source of value.
WE are biased in favor of ourselves, naturaly.
Not only was He willing to spend what He owned (creratures), He was willin' to become one & spend Himself for them.

As far as your doubts go, "hang tough"... He did.

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by R3quiem
If you lived back in the days of the OT, do you think you would have killed a baby if you believed that God wanted you to do it?

That was the litmus test for Abraham with his "baby" Isaac, on Mt. Moriah.
A question quite 'to-the-point', R3q!
A question God answered Himself with His own "baby", Jesus.

 

[CShephard53]

I'm interested to see if anyone will answer this question.

You're interested, eh? Of course I'd do it. Do you know why? Because God is faithful. God has proven Himself trustworthy time and time again. God knows what He's doing. Do you think it would be wise to mess with God? Wise to directly disobey a direct order? Wise to mess with a God who has the power to send me to hell? Heaven?

By now I hope you're getting the picture. Becuase the argument you've stated is the lamest argument one can bring to Christianity. That God is unloving. That assumes that God does not follow His own standard for love, and it assumes that God is subject to our judgement. Neither of which are sound assumptions to stand on.

 

[R3quiem]

That was the litmus test for Abraham with his "baby" Isaac, on Mt. Moriah.
A question quite 'to-the-point', R3q!
A question God answered Himself with His own "baby", Jesus.

True enough, but you didn't answer the question.

 

[R3quiem]

You're interested, eh? Of course I'd do it. Do you know why? Because God is faithful. God has proven Himself trustworthy time and time again. God knows what He's doing. Do you think it would be wise to mess with God? Wise to directly disobey a direct order? Wise to mess with a God who has the power to send me to hell? Heaven?

By now I hope you're getting the picture. Becuase the argument you've stated is the lamest argument one can bring to Christianity. That God is unloving. That assumes that God does not follow His own standard for love, and it assumes that God is subject to our judgement. Neither of which are sound assumptions to stand on.

So you're saying that you'd kill a baby because God is omnipotent and has the power to send you to heaven or hell? That pretty much means you'd kill a baby for entirely selfish reasons.

How is questioning God's love a lame argument? God in the NT seems pretty moral and god-like, but God in the OT sounds a lot like Ares, the Greek God of war on steroids.

 

[Rick Otto]

True enough, but you didn't answer the question.

I know.
Here's another ingenius answer...
You asked first, so you answer first! LOL
Only put yourself in Abraham's position.
Not just any baby, but your own baby!
And one that He promised you & you waited years for, & was miraculously given long after your wife's child-bearing ability had gone!

Asking about killing any baby only begins to scratch the surface of the possible depths in such a question, eh?

God waited 4,000 years for His baby, and His baby was born of a virgin!

 

[R3quiem]

I know.
Here's another ingenius answer...
You asked first, so you answer first! LOL
Only put yourself in Abraham's position.
Not just any baby, but your own baby!
And one that He promised you & you waited years for, & was miraculously given long after your wife's child-bearing ability had gone!

Asking about killing any baby only begins to scratch the surface of the possible depths in such a question, eh?

God waited 4,000 years for His baby, and His baby was born of a virgin!

Depends what I knew about God I suppose. If I had a rather in-depth relationship with God like Abraham did, it may be a bit different. Like, if I knew he existed and was God to the point where I've had several direct conversations with him, and he has given me reason to believe that everything will be ok, then I'd consider it. I'd definitely ask to be sacrificed in my son's place though. It ended up being a very good choice for both him AND his son.

This is a bit different than my question, however. I'm not talking about a sacrifice to God, I'm talking about killing the infants of your enemies because God has commanded you to do so. To answer your question as to whether I would do it, If my God was asking me to do things like that, I'd reconsider why I am worshiping such a war-like, violent God. Killing out of faith that everything will be ok is definitely extreme, but killing your enemies children is just evil.

As for Jesus' sacrifice- that was willing. He offered himself- in his prayer to God he was talking about taking the cup from him, but in the end realized that he must do it. He gave himself up, and that is extremely noble.

 

[Rick Otto]

Joshua had grown up followin' a pillar of fire & smoke around the desert, & watched the walls of Jericho come tumblin' down from 7 days march & trumpeting.
In those days of miracle & wonder, many heinous abominations equal to, or worse than slaughtering infants were probably pretty commonplace.
It happens all the time in Sudan these days, I hear.

 

[R3quiem]

Joshua had grown up followin' a pillar of fire & smoke around the desert, & watched the walls of Jericho come tumblin' down from 7 days march & trumpeting.
In those days of miracle & wonder, many heinous abominations equal to, or worse than slaughtering infants were probably pretty commonplace.
It happens all the time in Sudan these days, I hear.

You're jumping around the question.

I've given you my answer.

Do you think that if you lived in the OT times, if God commanded you to kill someone else's infant child, would you? Or a pregnant woman?

 

[R3quiem]

To add to the answer I gave for what I would do in Abraham's place:

I'd also consider the fact that God could be testing me the other way around.

Instead of testing me to see how faithful I was to God, I'd consider the possibility that he was testing me to see if I'd sacrifice my son for my own gain- as in, would I sacrifice my son to receive blessings and avoid the wrath of God. That's what most sacrifices were after all.

I'd still like an answer to my other question though, if you would.

 

[Rick Otto]

Ok, if you were the infant, I might hesitate for a second...
Thank God were in the NT!

 

[R3quiem]

Ok, if you were the infant, I might hesitate for a second...

So you would kill an enemy infant if you were commanded to by God? You'd feel bad, but you'd do it?

Thank God were in the NT!

Agreed.

Let's look at it from another perspective. What are your feelings about the 9/11 terrorism attacks? I think it was a terribly evil day. Yet, those hijackers did what they did because they believed that doing so pleased God. They looked at it as a sacrifice- giving up their own lives for their God.

Most people around the world would think that the attacks were a terrible thing- and yet the OT was no different. People killed other people because their God told them to. They killed Americans because they believed that by doing so, they furthered the cause of Islam, which they believed to be God's true religion. They believed we are God's enemies, that America is evil. This is exactly the same as Jews believing another group is evil, and killing them because God said so.

To them, their faith is just as real if not MORE real than your faith is (they must have had some pretty strong faith to do what they did.) Knowing this, can you believe what they did was wrong, when you yourself would kill an infant because your God told you to?

Consider it.

 

[Rick Otto]

Sure it was wrong... in my book!
Of course I realize they thought they were right!
But if they are to be judged by International Standards, religious convictions have to be tossed out in favor of survival imperatives. Self-defense must be defined in terms of immediate threat, not ideological; imperatives, right?
It would be the same if I were to crash a C132 full of C1-4 & cyanide into downtown Mecca. A great strategic move, but a lousy blow against World Peace.
I'd rather be a multi-billionaire and start makin' cars that ran on the Joe Cell.
http://www.thejoecell.com/
That would realy hit 'em where it hurts!

 

[BlessedPearl]

I tend to ignore a lot of the old testament for the reasons already outlined in this thread.

As a Christian, I do not believe that it is necessary to dwell on the old testament. The new testament is all that matters to me.

Jesus changed so much about the traditional Jewish religion. That is why we are no longer referred to as Jews but as Christians.

Jesus taught a new vision of God as a forgiving and loving Father. I would focus on that and forget the old testament.

 

[Da_Funkey_Gibbon]

My advice? Stop reading this thread and just spend some time with God.

I think we like to show the OT God as wrathful and the NT God as nice, but its not as simple as that. The NT God kills his son, after all.

 

[R3quiem]

I tend to ignore a lot of the old testament for the reasons already outlined in this thread.

The problem with that is that Jesus used the old scriptures as his base, his grounding. The NT relies on the OT being true.

As a Christian, I do not believe that it is necessary to dwell on the old testament. The new testament is all that matters to me.

Fair enough.

Jesus changed so much about the traditional Jewish religion. That is why we are no longer referred to as Jews but as Christians.

Yes, he did. But at the same time he said not a single word of the Old Law will be changed until Heaven and Earth come to an end.

Jesus taught a new vision of God as a forgiving and loving Father. I would focus on that and forget the old testament.

Well, yeah, I'd like to do that too. It's important, though, to know the history of the religion you believe in, to see where it has come from and to see where it is going. Otherwise, why not just believe in anything?