Why do the OT and NT contradict so much?

[R3quiem]

I'm going to focus in on this verse for the time being.

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

A bunch of children made fun of Elisha for being bald, so he called a curse down upon them in the name of the LORD, and 42 of them were violently killed. How is this not in direct opposite to what Jesus said about loving and praying for your enemies? Elisha here, by calling down a curse, was in a sense praying for negative things for them.

Why would God answer such a negative request? Why would he send bears to maul to death 42 children for a simple insult? They are just children. For those of you who believe in the OT as absolute truth, do you literally believe that God sent these bears to maul these children, exactly how it is depicted?

 

[R3quiem]

But then here is the issue: They DO have something in common.

Jesus referred to scriptures all the time, he was a Jewish teacher.

They seem so separate, one preaching love and one preaching violence, and yet they are linked. This is why I have trouble believing the NT, because the OT seems so ridiculous, yet was the basis for the NT.

It is the same God supposedly, is it not?

 

[JimfromOhio]

Simple:

OT - Law
NT - Grace

Now, put "Law & Grace" together and you can see why people are confused.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But then here is the issue: They DO have something in common.

Jesus referred to scriptures all the time, he was a Jewish teacher.

They seem so separate, one preaching love and one preaching violence, and yet they are linked. This is why I have trouble believing the NT, because the OT seems so ridiculous, yet was the basis for the NT.

It is the same God supposedly, is it not?

Jesus was to be one like unto Moses and wasn't Moses made an Elohiym to Pharaoh by YHWH?

Exodus 7:1 And YWHW saith unto Moses, `See, I have given thee Elohiym to Pharaoh, and Aaron thy brother is thy prophet;

Ezekiel 29:3 "Speak, and say, 'Thus says 'Adonay Y@hovih : "Behold Me!, On you, O Pharaoh/Par`oh king of Egypt/04714 Mitsrayim, the Dragon/tanniyn, the Great who lies in midst of his rivers, which he says to Me, 'My River and I, I made for me

Mark 14:53 And they led away Jesus unto the chief-priest, and come together to Him do all the chief priests, and the elders, and the scribes;

Simple:

OT - Law
NT - Grace

Now, put "Law & Grace" together and you can see why people are confused.

Remember Revelation and the "hot/cold", "Vomit thee out of My mouth"

 

[Markea]

R3,

Maybe we should look at a few basic things..

Do you believe the part of the bible that says that all have sinned..? Do you believe that you're a sinner is great need of a Saviour..?

How about the Lord Jesus Christ.. do you believe that He is God manifest in the flesh, and that He died for our sins according to the scriptures..?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

R3,

Maybe we should look at a few basic things..

Do you believe the part of the bible that says that all have sinned..? Do you believe that you're a sinner is great need of a Saviour..?

How about the Lord Jesus Christ.. do you believe that He is God manifest in the flesh, and that He died for our sins according to the scriptures..?

Hi. We know that but what about the Judeans and non-Judean Israelites and Muslims and others that do not know why Jesus came to the Isrealites first then the World thru Paul.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Hosea 13:14 "I will Ransom [06299 padah] them from the power of the grave; I will Redeem [01350 ga'al] them from Death. O Death, I will be your plagues! O Grave, I will be your destruction! Pity is hidden from My eyes.

1 Corinthians 7:23 with a price ye were bought/hgorasqhte <59>, become not servants of men;

Revelation 5:9 and they sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast slaughtered, and didst purchase/hgorasaV <59>Us to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

 

[R3quiem]

R3,

Maybe we should look at a few basic things..

Do you believe the part of the bible that says that all have sinned..? Do you believe that you're a sinner is great need of a Saviour..?

I do believe everyone has sinned in some way- no human is perfect (besides Jesus I guess). This includes me obviously as a sinner.

As for the needing a Savior part- I dunno. I don't know what the afterlife holds for us, if there is one. I will say that obviously I have no control over myself upon death, so I believe one cannot "earn" their way into any sort of pleasant afterlife. So some type of grace would in fact be necessary for that to happen.

I believe in evolution because of the ample evidence for it. (Please guys, I really don't want to turn this thread into an evolution vs creation debate....) So since I believe in evolution, the original sin concept doesn't hold up so well in my opinion.

How about the Lord Jesus Christ.. do you believe that He is God manifest in the flesh, and that He died for our sins according to the scriptures..?

Not sure. I believe he had great teachings, was a loving man and certainly went through a lot for us even though he didn't have to.

As for the God manifest in the flesh part, I dunno. Was he this warlike, destructive God that sends bears to maul children and commands his people to utterly destroy anything that breathes in a village because they don't believe in him? Probably not. Do I think he could have been somehow divinely inspired? Possibly. My problem here is what I said in the original post- it's hard for me to believe in Christ when I barely believe in the OT, and even if I did believe in it, I don't see how it can be considered anything other than evil and violent.

 

[Markea]

I do believe everyone has sinned in some way- no human is perfect (besides Jesus I guess). This includes me obviously as a sinner.

As for the needing a Savior part- I dunno. I don't know what the afterlife holds for us, if there is one. I will say that obviously I have no control over myself upon death, so I believe one cannot "earn" their way into any sort of pleasant afterlife.

I believe in evolution because of the ample evidence for it. (Please guys, I really don't want to turn this thread into an evolution vs creation debate....) So since I believe in evolution, the original sin concept doesn't hold up so well in my opinion.


Not sure. I believe he had great teachings, was a loving man and certainly went through a lot for us even though he didn't have to.

As for the God manifest in the flesh part, I dunno. Was he this warlike, destructive God that sends bears to maul children and commands his people to utterly destroy anything that breathes in a village because they don't believe in him? Probably not. Do I think he could have been somehow divinely inspired? Possibly. My problem here is what I said in the original post- it's hard for me to believe in Christ when I barely believe in the OT, and even if I did believe in it, I don't see how it can be considered anything other than evil and violent.

I think that this has a lot to do with it. What I mean is.. eternal judgment is called a basic element of the truth.. (Heb 6 I think), so if you're struggling with these things.. then you're essentially not a believer.. and you agree that you don't believe, or at least you don't know..

You're trying to see before you are given eyes to see.. and this will not happen until you place your faith and trust in God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ..

There's a verse in Genesis somewhere with respect to Mt Moriah.. ie, when Abraham went there to sacrifice his only begotten son Isaac.. it basically means the place of God's enlightenment.. ie, where we first SEE the light of God manifest..

IMO.. I would focus on the cross of Christ, and on what happened there, according to the scriptures.. and simply ask Him to reveal Himself to you as He truly is.. I know that you're having a difficult time accepting who He is.. because of His judgmental character displayed against rebellion in the OT.. but there's infinitely more to Him than that.. His judgment is called strange work, because He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked..

Christ didn't come to condemn the world.. but rather to save it.. and He did eveything that He possibly could with repect to being Holy and Just and Good.. but again.. He will not force His love and grace upon those who refuse Him.. and He is certainly giving men ample time to REPENT.. but soon that door will close.. for the whole world that rejected Him.

One day, soon I hope, I pray that you will come to Him willingly, without reservation.. because you have found that He truly did lay down His life for you.

Finally.. the scriptures teach that ONLY God can reveal this to you.. it's not going to come from your reasoning.. but from God revealing Himself to you through His Spirit of conviction, and through His word.

Just don't harden your heart.. keep listening to what He wants to tell you.. and He will tell it to you in a personal way that will be without a doubt, the voice of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

As for the God manifest in the flesh part, I dunno. Was he this warlike, destructive God that sends bears to maul children and commands his people to utterly destroy anything that breathes in a village because they don't believe in him? Probably not. Do I think he could have been somehow divinely inspired? Possibly. My problem here is what I said in the original post- it's hard for me to believe in Christ when I barely believe in the OT, and even if I did believe in it, I don't see how it can be considered anything other than evil and violent.

Hi. Don't know what to tell ya bro.
Just study on the NT/NC deeply first, then delve into the OT/OC next.

I recommend the books of John and Romans especially.

John 1:1 In beginning/arch <746> was the Word, and the Word was toward/proV <4314> the God/qeon <2316>; and God/qeoV <2316> was the Word.

Reve 21:6 And He said to me "They have become. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning/arch <746> and the End. I, to the one thirsting shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuiosly.

 

[R3quiem]

I think that this has a lot to do with it. What I mean is.. eternal judgment is called a basic element of the truth.. (Heb 6 I think), so if you're struggling with these things.. then you're essentially not a believer.. and you agree that you don't believe, or at least you don't know..

Correct.

You're trying to see before you are given eyes to see.. and this will not happen until you place your faith and trust in God's Son, the Lord Jesus Christ..

But wouldn't God need to give people at least a little bit of clarity so that they may choose him? What is there to tell me to place my faith in the Bible, and not in the Qur'an, or in Buddhism? It seems like a big roll of the dice to me, so there has to be a reason to make Christianity stick out.

Besides,
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

IMO.. I would focus on the cross of Christ, and on what happened there, according to the scriptures.. and simply ask Him to reveal Himself to you as He truly is.. I know that you're having a difficult time accepting who He is.. because of His judgmental character displayed against rebellion in the OT.. but there's infinitely more to Him than that.. His judgment is called strange work, because He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked..

I do ask him to reveal himself to me. I try to pray with an open mind, simply asking to be led to the correct path. Mother Teresa apparently doubted her entire life, and yet when we knock on the door, it will be opened for us? Who was knocking louder than her?

Christ didn't come to condemn the world.. but rather to save it.. and He did eveything that He possibly could with repect to being Holy and Just and Good.. but again.. He will not force His love and grace upon those who refuse Him.. and He is certainly giving men ample time to REPENT.. but soon that door will close.. for the whole world that rejected Him.

He didn't make his message very clear. If he did, there wouldn't be tons of other religions. How hard would it be for him to reveal himself to all of us? How can we make a choice to accept anything if we have no knowledge?

One day, soon I hope, I pray that you will come to Him willingly, without reservation.. because you have found that He truly did lay down His life for you.

Thank you.

Finally.. the scriptures teach that ONLY God can reveal this to you.. it's not going to come from your reasoning.. but from God revealing Himself to you through His Spirit of conviction, and through His word.

Just don't harden your heart.. keep listening to what He wants to tell you.. and He will tell it to you in a personal way that will be without a doubt, the voice of God.

I hope so.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

That word can also imply "dragging" as well as "drawing". Pretty powerful force it seems.

1670 helkuo {hel-koo'-o} or helko {hel'-ko}
probably akin to 138; TDNT - 2:503,227; v

1) to draw, drag off
2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

http://www.scripture4all.org/

John 6:44 oudeiV <3762> {NO ONE} dunatai <1410> (5736) {IS ABLE} elqein <2064> (5629) {TO BE COMING} proV <4314> {TOWARD} me <3165> {ME} ean <1437> {IF EVER} mh <3361> {NO} o <3588> {THE} pathr <3962> {FATHER}, o <3588> {THE} pemyaV <3992> (5660) {ONE SENDING} me <3165> {ME} elkush <1670> (5661) {SHOULD BE DRAGGING} auton <846> {HIM,} kai <2532> {AND} egw <1473> {I} anasthsw <450> (5692) {SHALL BE RAISING UP} auton <846> {HIM} th <3588> {THE} escath <2078> {LAST} hmera <2250> {DAY.}

 

[WarriorAngel]

Thanks for your posts everyone.

1. A couple of people have pointed out that the OT is absolute truth. What makes you believe such, how can you tell if it is true or not?

2. Some people have pointed out that the world is so full of evil. My original question dealt with the OT being evil.

If say, you were reading the OT objectively, and that all of this was done by some other supposed God, would you not find it to be very evil? With so much killing, even of woman, children, and animals, it seems to me to be the most evil set of religious scriptures there is.

Maybe I am not explaining myself so well.
Yes it is all true.

HERE is the thing though...
It is Divine inspiration given to us through men.
Soooo....you are going to see some slant towards the author and the ppl of the Lord and then again you are going to ALSO see RAW humility and humbled circumstances .

It might have a biased [sometimes] slant to it, but the actions occurred and often times we cannot in 2007 or so understand how the ancient ppl operated.
IT was NOT a political correct world.

Yes the OT is true. Not only does the OT show us about 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled [mathematically preposterous to try to do by accident or deliberately]
BUT it also shows us Jesus, the One Who fulfilled them... quote the OT as truth.

Seriously, 'God interacted' at one time with humanity. He promised not to anymore for the fear [because we are sinners] it caused into men's hearts. Severe fear BTW.

Dueteronomy shows us that God would instead start to inspire men to tell His prophecies. IF the prophecies did not unfold, then they were not a true prophet.

So, knowing all of the above I mentioned.. take into consideration that Christ definitely spoke of the OT literally and historically.

Sometimes my friend, one small seed of doubt will catch like wild fire and start spreading all over the person's free will until they allow the veil of satan to come over their eyes which once had Grace [faith]

Remember it this way instead...
Matthew 7; 7-8
IF in doubt immediately ask the Lord, and have faith that He will answer.

I assure you temptations are strong...but prayer can combat any temptation we have.

Prayer keeps us from stumbling because grace can live within us only thru the Lord, and by our desire to have it.

NOW... we cannot judge God by the actions of the ppl back then because it was PRE Jesus. Before Jesus came, man had hard hearts and God allowed it.
He allowed it because ppl did not yet hear the Word of God. [Jesus]
He allows for ignorance. Thank goodness for mercy.

God allows all to have free will.
I dont ponder too deeply into the 'seemingly awful things' the ancients did because their era was completely different than the world we live in so it is impossible for us to comprehend that sort of lifestyle.

Also, one more thot before I bore you...

God is the Author of Life..
No one [back then] could say God killed anyone. If a group was evil against God, then God allowed their demise...but it was written by men and all accounts [although ordained or allowed by God] were still done by men who have FREE WILL.
And as Author of life.. God does not kill. He will take our souls but He does not murder. Murder is a term that only subsists of human action.

I think I write too much, but its much harder to write it out than just tell you. lol

 

[R3quiem]

Maybe I am not explaining myself so well.
Yes it is all true.

HERE is the thing though...
It is Divine inspiration given to us through men.
Soooo....you are going to see some slant towards the author and the ppl of the Lord and then again you are going to ALSO see RAW humility and humbled circumstances .

It might have a biased [sometimes] slant to it, but the actions occurred and often times we cannot in 2007 or so understand how the ancient ppl operated.
IT was NOT a political correct world.

Yes the OT is true. Not only does the OT show us about 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled [mathematically preposterous to try to do by accident or deliberately]
BUT it also shows us Jesus, the One Who fulfilled them... quote the OT as truth.

Seriously, 'God interacted' at one time with humanity. He promised not to anymore for the fear [because we are sinners] it caused into men's hearts. Severe fear BTW.

Dueteronomy shows us that God would instead start to inspire men to tell His prophecies. IF the prophecies did not unfold, then they were not a true prophet.

So, knowing all of the above I mentioned.. take into consideration that Christ definitely spoke of the OT literally and historically.

Sometimes my friend, one small seed of doubt will catch like wild fire and start spreading all over the person's free will until they allow the veil of satan to come over their eyes which once had Grace [faith]

Remember it this way instead...
Matthew 7; 7-8
IF in doubt immediately ask the Lord, and have faith that He will answer.

I assure you temptations are strong...but prayer can combat any temptation we have.

Prayer keeps us from stumbling because grace can live within us only thru the Lord, and by our desire to have it.

I'm not going to argue this, because I don't want this thread to turn too debateful. Besides mentioning the prophecies, you haven't said any reason for why you believe. Are there other reasons, or just those?

NOW... we cannot judge God by the actions of the ppl back then because it was PRE Jesus. Before Jesus came, man had hard hearts and God allowed it.
He allowed it because ppl did not yet hear the Word of God. [Jesus]
He allows for ignorance. Thank goodness for mercy.

But...the verses I posted clearly show God ordering them to do those actions. He didn't just allow them, he commanded them.

God allows all to have free will.
I dont ponder too deeply into the 'seemingly awful things' the ancients did because their era was completely different than the world we live in so it is impossible for us to comprehend that sort of lifestyle.

True, I cannot comprehend that sort of lifestyle. So much violence everywhere it's unbelievable.

Also, one more thot before I bore you...

God is the Author of Life..
No one [back then] could say God killed anyone. If a group was evil against God, then God allowed their demise...but it was written by men and all accounts [although ordained or allowed by God] were still done by men who have FREE WILL.
And as Author of life.. God does not kill. He will take our souls but He does not murder. Murder is a term that only subsists of human action.

I think I write too much, but its much harder to write it out than just tell you. lol

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that nobody back then could say God killed anyone.
-Who flooded the entire Earth and killed nearly every being on it? It could be argued back and forth whether they deserved it or not, but it's still pretty clear that the story says God did it directly. He directly murdered millions of people.

-Again with the allowing things to happen mentality. The various verses I've posted depict God as clearly commanding them to murder and destroy their enemies, including children. He didn't just allow them to kill children, he specifically commanded them to kill children.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm not going to argue this, because I don't want this thread to turn too debateful. Besides mentioning the prophecies, you haven't said any reason for why you believe. Are there other reasons, or just those?

But...the verses I posted clearly show God ordering them to do those actions. He didn't just allow them, he commanded them.

True, I cannot comprehend that sort of lifestyle. So much violence everywhere it's unbelievable.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that nobody back then could say God killed anyone.
-Who flooded the entire Earth and killed nearly every being on it? It could be argued back and forth whether they deserved it or not, but it's still pretty clear that the story says God did it directly. He directly murdered millions of people.

-Again with the allowing things to happen mentality. The various verses I've posted depict God as clearly commanding them to murder and destroy their enemies, including children. He didn't just allow them to kill children, he specifically commanded them to kill children.

Yepperz. So why not read the NT/NC if the OT/OC makes you "squeamish"?

Hebrews 11:29 To-Faith they crossed-over/di-ebhsan <1224> the Red Sea as through dry, of which trial getting the Egyptians were down-drunk.

Exodus 14:29 And Sons of Yisra'el went in-dry in midst of the sea, and the waters to them a wall, from right of them and from left of them;
30 And YHWH is saving * Yisra'el in-day, the-that, from hand of Egypt. And Yisra'el is seeing the Egyptians dead on the shore of the Sea. 31 And Yisra'el is seeing the hand, the great which YHWH in Egyptians. And the people are fearing YHWH, and they are believing in YHWH, and in Mosheh, servant of Him.

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea. 2 My might and melody is Yah And He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '

 

[R3quiem]

Yepperz. So why not read the NT/NC if the OT/OC makes you "squeamish"?

Hebrews 11:29 To-Faith they crossed-over/di-ebhsan <1224> the Red Sea as through dry, of which trial getting the Egyptians were down-drunk.

Exodus 14:29 And Sons of Yisra'el went in-dry in midst of the sea, and the waters to them a wall, from right of them and from left of them;
30 And YHWH is saving * Yisra'el in-day, the-that, from hand of Egypt. And Yisra'el is seeing the Egyptians dead on the shore of the Sea. 31 And Yisra'el is seeing the hand, the great which YHWH in Egyptians. And the people are fearing YHWH, and they are believing in YHWH, and in Mosheh, servant of Him.

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Mosheh and the sons of Yisra'el this song unto YHWH, and they spake saying,--"I will sing to YHWH for He is exalted exalted,--The horse and his rider hath He cast into the Sea. 2 My might and melody is Yah And He became mine salvation/y@shuw'ah.--This is my 'El and I will glorify Him, 'Elohiym of my father and I will set Him on high". '

I read both.

If I just read the parts that make me happy, I might as well just make up an imaginary God and pray to it.

In searching for truth, it is necessary to gather as much information as possible. If we just focus on the information that we like, and ignore the rest, we go nowhere.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I read both.

If I just read the parts that make me happy, I might as well just make up an imaginary God and pray to it.

In searching for truth, it is necessary to gather as much information as possible. If we just focus on the information that we like, and ignore the rest, we go nowhere.

That is also true.

Zeph 1:14 Near [is] the great day of YHWH, Near, and hasting exceedingly, The noise of the day of YHWH, Bitterly shriek there doth a mighty one. 15 A day of wrath [is] that day, A day of adversity and distress, A day of waste and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of cloud and thick darkness. 16 A day of trumpet and shouting against the fenced cities, And against the high corners. 17 And I have sent distress to men, And they have walked as the blind, For against YHWH they have sinned, And poured out is their blood as dust, And their flesh as dung.

Reve 19:17 And I saw one messenger standing in the sun, and he cried, a great voice, saying to all the birds that are flying in mid-heaven, `Come and be gathered together to the supper of the great God, 18 that ye may eat flesh [Ezekiel 39]

 

[WarriorAngel]

I'm not going to argue this, because I don't want this thread to turn too debateful. Besides mentioning the prophecies, you haven't said any reason for why you believe. Are there other reasons, or just those?

To my knowledge this is a debate section.
Nope, I believe solely through Grace.... but I was trying to show you context of the purpose of the OT and how the NT is the fulfilment of the OT prophecies.

But...the verses I posted clearly show God ordering them to do those actions. He didn't just allow them, he commanded them.

Hosea is not a direct command.
Joshua was about a war. A war that God commanded they follow His directives to win ..or not, and lose.
AND Dueteronomy again...was God's chastisement to their offenses against Him.
WAR was allowed by God due to the offenses of mankind.

You cannot comprehend the offenses God endured, and so you cannot be God's judge regarding the offenses.

AND again, this was prior to Jesus.
Why do I keep saying that?
Because it was only when Jesus took up for our sins that we can repent and be forgiven all the way up til our death.

And meantime because of Jesus, the tares grow with the wheat.
Because of Jesus, man should not kill one another by stoning or for offenses.

Same God, new understanding.
AGAIN...man said the commands came from God. And apparently they did in their hearts and God inspired them to forge ahead in order to have the lineage neded to provide Christ.

Perhaps those sacrifices of the offenders to allow Christ's geneology to continue were for the purpose of the whole of mankind.

BUT dont worry, I am certain God had mercy on the souls of children... and women and innocent men.
It was probably true back then, if a survivor lived, then they would meet with vengence.

YOU cannot judge our times with their times. THEIR mindset vastly differed from ours and their rough lifestyles and unyielding hearts were ALLOWED because God allowed it.

There was a means to an end.

The end result was leading the way to God Himself fulfilling His Promise to die for mankind as a man so HE [the perfect sacrifice] could atone for our miserable sins.

True, I cannot comprehend that sort of lifestyle. So much violence everywhere it's unbelievable.

Well, to be fair, it might not have been constantly violent and again it may not have been vast numbers who died. [I dont know stats]

Our times are violent, but we have diplomas and civilized deaths done in secret.
The differences are that those ppl had an open war. They understood who were their enemies, and although the Isreali's went into battle, it is assured that many died in combat. I just dont think they recorded the numbers.

It was typical of many armies to overcome and destroy other cities and towns.
The Assyrians were the most powerful army in ancient times and they didnt leave anyone to survive. And carried off riches.

THAT was just the way they were. Wether they did it for themselves and riches or they did it for survival depends on why the war was carried out.

You seeing this yet?
I love watching the ancient times and wars... so it has opened my eyes.

Maybe find some good video's in the outcast bins.. they might be interesting. Or perhaps the dollar stores have some archeology vid's.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that nobody back then could say God killed anyone.
-Who flooded the entire Earth and killed nearly every being on it? It could be argued back and forth whether they deserved it or not, but it's still pretty clear that the story says God did it directly. He directly murdered millions of people.

-Again with the allowing things to happen mentality. The various verses I've posted depict God as clearly commanding them to murder and destroy their enemies, including children. He didn't just allow them to kill children, he specifically commanded them to kill children.

God doesn't kill. THAT is an action that men do.
God destorys the life He created but as Author of life that is His perorgative and since He creates and takes life only He is not in judgement from men who are not to murder because it is judgement when they take that upon themselves.

Interesting to add that WAR is another story and always has been.
WARS come from the hardness of men's hearts.
YOU cannot see hearts and so you cannot know how war develops.

Jesus said a few times I believe that Moses gave them laws [like divorce] because of the hardness of men's hearts.

IT is man's doing and only allowable by God.

IE...what you see written from that era might seem horrible, but that was the way they talked and that is the way they lived.

You have to really look into the ancient times to comprehend it all.

Sitting her saying God was bad means you just are not understanding the differences.
I didnt either til I soaked up anything I could to find out.

Matthew 7;7-8 always works somehow.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And meantime because of Jesus, the tares grow with the wheat.
Because of Jesus, man should not kill one another by stoning or for offenses.

Interesting to add that WAR is another story and always has been.
WARS come from the hardness of men's hearts.
YOU cannot see hearts and so you cannot know how war develops.

Excellent post.

[Young LT] Isaiah 2:4 And He hath judged between the nations, And hath given a decision to many peoples, And they have beat their swords to ploughshares, And their spears to pruning-hooks, Nation doth not lift up sword unto nation, Nor do they learn any more--war.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Elaboration on war;

Assyrians destroyed children, men and women...
God did not 'command' them to this because they didnt believe in God.

Isreali's killed everyone [wartime] but they believed in God, therefore in their hearts God commanded this be done. When they won they knew God was granting favor omn their efforts.

When they lost, they knew they were being punished as a whole because they started messing with pagan things again.

In the OT things were evident.
You knew God's Laws, you stayed in God's Laws because there was no forgiveness.

NOW, we will find out later because God's mercy has magnified thru Christ's sacrifice and we can at the last hour convert our hearts to Him and He will receive our repentence.

AND note that even though men killed men, God was still going to be their judge [three days in Hades He spent judging them].

 

[Markea]

But wouldn't God need to give people at least a little bit of clarity so that they may choose him? What is there to tell me to place my faith in the Bible, and not in the Qur'an, or in Buddhism? It seems like a big roll of the dice to me, so there has to be a reason to make Christianity stick out.

The bible is literally a miracle because of its spiritual nature.. and it is the only book in the world that can tell you the end from the beginning.. ie.. the entire OT points to Christ, for in the volume of the book it is written of HIM..

From the creation, to the fall, to the promise, to the redeemer, is all one continuous theme centered on the Lord Jesus Christ..

One of the most important and most popular stories is the story of Joseph in Genesis.. he is a picture of Christ.. loved by his father, was given a coat of many colors.. he was hated by his own brethren.. was sold for twenty pieces of silver.. went from the pit to the prison to the throne, second in command only to Pharaoh.. was given a Gentile bride while hidden from his brethren in a Gentile land.. predicted the future prosperity and famine which was to come.. and he then revealed himself to his brethren in their deepest time of need.. without their even knowing that it was him.. Joseph's father (JACOB, who later was named Israel), learned at the end of his life that his son was alive, and ruler over all..

It's all a theme of Christ.. how that he was loved (is loved) of His Father.. how that His life was colorful and brilliant and undeniably different than any other.. but He came to His own, and His own received Him not.. so they sold Him out to the Gentiles for 30 pieces of silver, they stripped Him of His clothes and crucified Him, and thought that they were finished with Him.. but He rose from that pit which humanity threw Him into, and He is now hidden from Israel as they are blinded in part and the gospel is going out to the Gentiles.. and He will be given a Gentile bride as He is building His church and calling out a people for His name.. CHRISTians.. He has given us a future Revelation of things to come, and He will ultimately reveal Himself to His brethren, even the nation of Israel.. and they will look upon the one whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him in that day.. the DAY of the LORD..

This is ONE example of how the scriptures thematically point to Christ.. it happens over and over in the scriptures.. and it's all centered upon Him..

Besides,
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

That's right.. the gospel is a revelation from God, it is NOT from man.. when Peter answered the question of "who do you say that I am..?".. The Lord told him that flesh and blood had NOT revealed this to him, but that it was His Father (GOD) who had revealed it to him.. this is true in every case and it's how a person is born again through the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever..

I do ask him to reveal himself to me. I try to pray with an open mind, simply asking to be led to the correct path. Mother Teresa apparently doubted her entire life, and yet when we knock on the door, it will be opened for us? Who was knocking louder than her?

I'm glad that you're asking, and keep seeking, and keep knocking.. God is well pleased and very capable of revealing Himself to you as long as you're geniunely searching for the truth.. BUT, don't worry about worldly examples like Mother Teresa.. you're not her.. and you have your own heart and mind which God will speak to..

He didn't make his message very clear. If he did, there wouldn't be tons of other religions. How hard would it be for him to reveal himself to all of us? How can we make a choice to accept anything if we have no knowledge?

I think that God has made Himself crystal clear, and that He is a God of revelation.. He is not hiding.. He's asking you to come to Him, knowing that you're a sinner, and He is the ONLY ONE who can do anything about that.

Thank you.


I hope so.

Thank YOU R3.. most folks are not as open as you have been.. and I hope that you continue to search diligently for HIM with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.. because HE will see to the rest.. there's not a doubt in my mind.