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Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

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he-man

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αιων(from a root meaning life, especially long life, old age), an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching tο infinity : απ' αiωνος, from the beginning of the present age, from the beginning of time, Lu. i 7ο, &c. :ειςαιωνα (in saeculum, in. aeternum, Ambros. Expos. PS. Cxviii 12 7 § 7 ) αιωνες, αίώνων, a Hebraism expression, more emphatic than the simple aiώvεs Gal. i 5, &c.

αώνιος, (a) age long, and, therefore, practically eternal, unending; (b) partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting

Psa 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

τηρηοις ασεβων ανθρωπων day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3: 7. Hence the end of the wicked is described as απωλεια Phil 3: 19. σκευηοργης κατηρτισμενα εις απωλεια, objects of (his) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9: 22 (Is 54: 16). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1, is not sleeping vs. 3. Appears as a consequence of death (cf. Job 28, 22): ο θανατος απωλεια εχει αιωνιον Hs 6, 2, 4;
Moulton and G Milligan
A Greek-English Lexicon by William Arndt and F Wilbur Gingrich
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]αιωνιος αιωνιου sempiternal, having beginning, but πο end, age long, forever[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Psa 21:4 Hebrew [ עולם ] eternity 1. apoleia (ancAEia, 684), akin to A, No. 1, and likewise indicating "loss of well being, not of being," is used (a) of things, signifying their waste, or ruin; of ointment, Matt. 26:8; Mark 14:4; of money, Acts 8:20 ("perish"); (b) of persons, signifying their spiritual and eternal perdition, Matt. 7:13; John 17:12; 2 Thess. 2:3, where "son of perdition" signifies the proper destiny of the person mentioned; metaphorically of men persistent in evil, Rom. 9:22, where "fitted" is in the middle voice, indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for "destruction", of the adversaries of the Lord's people, Phil. 1:28 ("perdition"); of professing Christians, really enemies of the cross of Christ, Phil. 3:19 (RV, "perdition"); of those who are subjects of foolish and hurtful lusts, 1 Tim. 6:9 (for the preceding word "destruction" see No. 3, below); of professing Hebrew adherents who shrink back into unbelief, Heb. 10:39; of false teachers, 2 Pet. 2:1, 3; of ungodly men, 3:7; of those who wrest the Scriptures, 3:16; of the Beast, the final head of the revived Roman Empire, Rev. 17:8, 11; (c) of impersonal subjects, as heresies, 2 Pet. 2:1, where "destructive heresies" (RV; KJV, "damnable") is, lit., "heresies of destruction"
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Cyclopedia of Bibical Literature by McClintock and James Strong[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Psa 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]9 Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call. KJV[/FONT]



[/FONT]
 
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strangertoo

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dollarsbill said:
"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
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Phantasman: said:
I never thought of of hell being a place where the sun rose and set.
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Good point which highlights the translation error corrected in literal translations like REB ,YLT

Revelation 20:10 [YLT] and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages.

as Jesus says, all accept him as king in the end , all obey his command to Love, stop sinning

and I would have thought it was obvious that God doesn't fail anyone, but is God of Love of all men....
 
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he-man

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dollarsbill said:
"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"
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You mean to die the second death with eternal vexation.
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
G5099 τίνω Strengthened for a primary word τίω tiō to pay a price, that is, as a penalty: - be punished with.

οιτινες δικην τισουσιν penalty ολεθρον αιωνιον everlasting απο προσωπου του κυριου και απο της δοξης της ισχυος αυτου

Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]to rub to test the purity, consume [/FONT][/FONT]test by touchstone Tormented (εβασανισα&#957 see 2Pe 2:8 Vexed (εβασανιζε&#957
 
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Hillsage

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dollarsbill said:
Well yeah, but those in Hell won't be happy.
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JAM 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.

No they won't be happy in hell. But then, are you happy when the fire of hell is ignited by the sin of your tongue in your life now? Then what is the difference? Simply timing.

1TI 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Your "due time" to give a testimony just happened to be in this age, for God chose such a time to call you. Their "due time" will be "in the ages to come"...praise be to Him. So it is simply a matter of timing for His 'will to have all men be saved'. Unless you believe your will trumps out over His will. Thank God I trust in Him for us " to will and to do", and not in the orthodox lies of the pharisees of today.

For it is only those who know Him correctly, who believe that the fire of God consummates eventually rather than consumes eternally. My view aligns with a purposeful god and your view aligns with a heart that is contrary to forgiveness.

Thanks for inspiring my new #1 signature line.
 
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P1LGR1M

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The difference being...Thomas believed in this life, as all who are born again do.

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, but among those saying "Lord, Lord!"

...will be those the Lord never knew. This is basic.



When John sees the dead before judgment, though we do not have an explicit "The dead lived again," we do see that they live again after the Thousand Years:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)



4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



We can see that the implcation is that as scripture teaches consisitently that all will be resurrected, some to everlasting life, some to everlasdting shame, that the dead among the wicked are also resurrected.

In the verses above the implication is that those that are resurrected who have, for example, followed Antichrist rather than Christ, the second death will have power over.

One of the things I see to be an error is to fail to distinguish the use of "first" in this passage. It is thought by many to be a reference to this being the first resurrection in regards to sequence of time, rather than it being qualitative. Just as there are two fates awaiting man, eternal life in Christ our Lord, or, for those that are not known of Him, and they themselves do not know Him...everlasting punishment.

What the above passage is saying is that those reseurrected after the thousand years will endure the second death. They have been raised from the dead and stand before God to be judged.


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The Book of life is a complete record. It is just my belief that all who are born are recorded in the book of life, and it is not until they die that they are blotted out. David cried out against his enemies, and ultimately, the enemies of Christ, for this very thing:


Psalm 69:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.



There is no reconciling the fact that there are those that are blotted out of the Book of Life who will not enter into eternal relationship with God with the teaching that all will be saved. Only by minimalizing one's embrace of the word of God can such a conclusion be arrived at.


So is orthodoxy correct or not, since they say everybody is spiritually dead to start with?
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They do not say it...scripture records the Lord saying it:


John 6

King James Version (KJV)


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Those that agree with the Lord simply echo the Lord's teaching.


Hillsage said:
If that's what you believe then don't you also have to believe that all these 'dead people' who are alive, are alive because they must have somehow got a 'born again' in spirit....PRAISE BE TO GOD.
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Why would one need to read the New Birth into resurrection of the wicked for judgment?

Would we also read the new birth into the resurrection of Lazarus? Or those raised during the Lord's Crucifixion (though some do, lol, and see this as the firstfruits, which is not possible seeing that the Lord is the firstfruits).

I do see the spirit of man, in general, to be immortal. This is a doctrine coupled with Original Sin that is refuted by many that subscribe to doctrines such as Universal Salvation and annihilation. Which is unfortunate.


All who hear the Gospel, the revealed will of God for man's salvation, no matter the Age in which it is given, no matter whether it is temporal or eternal...are spiritually dead. This death speaks of seperation from God which all men, at physical birth, are.

For this reason the Lord came to give the life spoken of in the Book of John. We would have to assume that the Lord came to give life which man already had should we subscribe to doctrines that elevate man's spiritual status above that which God has declared. And that too...would be unfortunate. Because we would be refuting the very teaching of scripture in doing so, all to...maintain our own position.


Romans 5

King James Version (KJV)



8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



All men are enemies of God, and the sacrifice of Christ ALONE is what both brings reconciliation as well as the Life of Christ, which because He is God...is eternal life which we partake of when we are In Christ.

All men are born under condemnation, and it is not a matter of if they will pay a penalty for their sin, it is simply a matter of when. For those that are reconciled to God and no longer enemies, but sons, that penalty was placed upon Christ on the Cross.

One will either for himself pay this penalty, or Christ will. Until they turn to Him in faith and are, as He taught was necessary, born again, they remain under condemnation.


18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


All men, due to the sin of one man, Adam, are under the judgment of condemnation. And it the Free Gift which has come upon all men unto justification of life. This gift can either be embraced or rejected, as scripture clearly sets forth, and the Lord said "Ye must be born again," leaving no option for those that reject this gift and remain enemies of God.


John 3

King James Version (KJV)



5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



The Lord distinguishes between physical birth and spiritual birth. The New Birth, therefore, is dependant upon the work of God, not the work of our parents.



9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


Just as in John 6 those that receive eternal life do so through faith in Christ and His death in their place. It was necessary, as the Lord spoke a number of times, that He should diee for the sins which seperates man from God.

And here we see that only those that believe in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Again it is reiterated that those who believe have everlasting life. God gave His Son to the whole world, but belief is required.


17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Christ came not to condemn, but to save.


18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Those that fail to believe are already condemned. Because they have not believed.

Passage after passage in scripture shows that not all will believe, not all wil obey the Gospel, not all will know Christ, and not all will be known of Christ, and will therefore not belong to Him.

These are they that are raised from the dead, who have never received life through or in Christ, and who will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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The passage refers to this Age and speaks of the Lords return and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom. If we compare the works of those created in Christ Jesus unto good works and those of seed, or children of the Devil, we can see that Satan's children are able to replicate works which appear to be Christian. They are seemingly similar in appearance to true believers, else they would not both themselves be convinced they are true believers nor would there be the appearance of being servants, or children of the Lord.

The contrast is between the good and faithful servant which did the will of his Lord and the unprofitable servant who by his actions shows his hatred, or despising of the Lord.


Hillsage said:
MAT 25:45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
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Evidencing their resistance to the will of the Lord in their works.




Where does it say that it was made only for the Devil and his angels?

It is evident in this verse that men are in view and this is where the Lord will place the goats.

Hillsage said:
The fire of hell is simply the tool given to the devil and his angels to bring us into submission and humbleness.
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Where do we read Satan has power over Hell and is "simply his tool?"

Satan fears the fire of Hell more than any being ever created, as his knowledge of it's reality is not convoluted by contrary doctrines nor does he have the capacity, I believe, to embrace something he does not want to believe by ignoring scriptural teaching and cherry-picking until he has convinced himself something is true.



The excommunication of a member of a fellowship is hardly a basis for denying scriptures teaching concerning Satan's fall and eventual fate.

While God may allow Satan to work his wiles among man we do not see Satan and God working together.


While these sins might be found in members of the Body of Christ, it does not change the fact that a continual pattern of these sins evidences that one has not been born again and is still under condemnation, and still dead, not having the Life of Christ.

Paul contrasts the evidences of non-belief with evidences of true belief:


Galatians 5:22-25

King James Version (KJV)


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.



The former list refers to those that are not Christ's, those who He will declare, "Depart from me, for I never knew you," and the latter list refers to those that are Christ's.


Hillsage said:
Especially since this verse is written to the church concerning how 'they' are to act. You take it out of context to think it is only speaking of the unsaved.
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He has simply stated what scripture does, nothing out of context:


Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25
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The goats will be seperated from Him and the implication is that if they go into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels, they too will endure eternal fire, or judgment, which is in fact eternal seperation.




The assumption is that the Church is engaged in sorcery. And while it is true there are those among the born again that take medicines, if they are born again it is doubtful they are engaged in a biblical sorcery which speaks of altering the mind to better commune with the "gods."

And I think that if we look at the sanctification process as taught in scripture, and the fact that we abide, for now, in unredeemed flesh which causes us to remain exposed to the curse, we can safely say that people are saved while still in their sin, but that Christ will progressively remove sin from our lives.




This is euphemistic for belief.

In other words, "Blessed are those that have believed on the name of Jesus Christ." Those who keep the commandments of God are contrasted with those who do not.

Hillsage said:
I guess that 'narrow gate' may be narrower than most sinning, pill popping Christians really realize.
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How many "sinning, pill popping Christians do you know?"

Hillsage said:
5333 pharmakos: a druggist ("pharmacist") or poisoner, i.e. (by extens.) a magician.

Or, maybe they don't realize 'the truth' as much as they think they do.
Click to expand...


I would agree with this statement.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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I do not see the poster quoting as the one adding something, but the one suggesting as adding.

What this has to do with his name I cannot see either, as it is apparent in scripture that sin does not cease entirely upon salvation, and it is true that men will sin after salvation and are gradually set apart from sin.

What I find ironic is a denial of God's judgment upon sin and sinners.


Hillsage said:
And we will differ on another point also, because I don't believe he is talking about heaven in the hereafter in that verse, I believe he is talking about the Kingdom of God here and now.
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This makes little sense: either we are joint-heirs...or we are not.

Those that evidence a pattern of being natural men have said of them that they will not inherit the Kingdom of God, which is expressly saying that they have not, at this point, inherited either the Kingdom to Come or the spiritual realm of God's rule...now.

They are still unsaved.

And this is exactly what the poster has said.


Hillsage said:
'That' kingdom of promises and blessings which are received 'here and now' when you meet the requirements of submission to His Lordship.
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Requirements of submission?

Once again a works-based basis.

One does not meet a requirement to receive The Gift, else it is no more a gift, but a payment. Paul is clear about this.


Hillsage said:
Notice Galatians says you choose to receive/inherit His life now by choosing to "walk in the spirit".

Click to expand...


Back up and notice what else Paul says to these who are engaging in works-based faith:

Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



And he calls them foolish, for it is foolish for one to think they can make a debtor of the Lord through the works of the flesh, and it is tantamount to saying that Christ's sacrifice was in vain.


Galatians 2:21

King James Version (KJV)


21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.





Hillsage said:
It's contrasting the "flesh" list of sins, with the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22). And if you don't 'walk in the spirit', then you are still under the temporal consequences of the law and subsequent death here and now.


Click to expand...



No, it contrasting saving faith in Christ with those that live a consistent pattern of sin, evidencing that they walk in the flesh and are natural, not spiritual.


Hillsage said:
Question; Do you receive
Click to expand...


Question: who receives an inheritance? Sons, or all?

Another question: is it we ourselves who cultivate the fruit of the Spirit, which fruit is...the fruit of the Spirit?

Another question: if I say that "the fruit of false doctrine is error," what produces the fruit?

There is no question that the Kingdom of God is within us, but there is equally no question that we await the Kingdom of God in completion, Where we will be redeemed from not only this creation, but unredeemed flesh.


Hillsage said:
So he is NOT speaking of saved people here, because saved people WILL inherit the kingdom of God.
Click to expand...
​
Hopefully you see why I disagree.
Click to expand...

I for one do see the argument provided, but must agree with the poster: he is not contrasting "good and bad" Christians, but saved and unsaved.

Paul establishes that it is the death of Christ and the work of the Holy SPirit in which we are to trust in, not the works we do...


if we cultivate them with a lifestyle of being 'spirit led'.
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That is the very error Paul addresses concerning the Galatian believers.


The poster is actually addressing this on the level which is taught to be exclusively what is in view...the spiritual level, or God's reign in the hearts of the believer.

As we seek to yield to God's rule in our lives we need to remember that salvation is wholly the work of God, and apart from this work we would not be in the process of being conformed to Christ.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Actually it simply reiterates the teaching of the Lord.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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It may be what was intended to be taught, but unfortunately the scriptures presented, even though an annihilationist voew was sought to be supported in them, are plain enough that another annihilationist took issue with the presentation of them.

And they will see the face of God, at which time they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Scripture can be seen to show that the above atatment cannot be supported by scripture itself.

God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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Where does scripture teach an "age of punishing?"

God bless.
 
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Phantasman

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I like your signature line as well.

The one verse that always concerned me in the Bible was:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


It caused me to think that we could in fact find those that we could follow that would profess Christianity but would in fact mislead us. As I pondered this, I thought even of our nation, and saw how man has taken what our forefathers gave us and what we have become in less than three hundred years. Man has a way of changing an original idea to one that suits the purpose of the masses as time goes on, governments in control included.



Roman and Jewish control took Christianity to an abbreviated form, IMO, after 300 years beyond Christs death. It is what most study today (and accept). I do not. I still believe in the nation founding fathers principles (quit policing the world) and I believe in the founding principles before Constantine's Bishops created the Roman Catholics path started by Tertullian.


Knowledge is key to gaining wisdom. Ignorance to gaining control. Jesus brought us wisdom from God. He said seek it and you'll find it. The word seek means something special.
 
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P1LGR1M

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strangertoo said:
we already know the MANY are destroyed for an age - Matt 7:13
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No translation that I know of has Matthew 7:13 teaching that "many are destroyed for an age."

This is an insertion to the text which cannot be supported by scripture.


Matthew 7:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:


This can be translated only a certain number of ways, and not one valid translation adds to the word of God that "many are destroyed for an age."

The timeframe of the destruction is, however, given many times and as shown a number of times that it is everlasting is evident as it is contrasted with the Life of Christ:


Matthew 25:46

King James Version (KJV)


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Why would one be everlating and the other not?

God bless.
 
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akin to A, No. 1, and likewise indicating "loss of well being, not of being,"


Just the ointment did not cease toexist, and the question focuses on "waste" in the sense that an alternative fate was preferable, even so the destruction of the damned will be a fate where there is an alternative.

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"Day and night" emphasizes that the torment is unending, not that a solar pattern will be in existence."

Just as the use of the Lord in describing the enduring fate of the wicked with terms such as "Where their worm dieth not." The Lord is not saying that those in the Lake of Fire will be continually eaten of worms, but uses a trash dump to picture utter ruin which is continual.

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Hillsage said:
1CO 15:22 For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
Click to expand...


1 Corinthians 15:22

King James Version (KJV)


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



The chapter is clear that Paul is referring to the saved. We see that also here:


1 Corinthians 15:51

King James Version (KJV)


51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,



Is it also thought that all of mankind will be caught away?

This would cause many issues concerning resurrection. That Paul references the Just is not only clear in this chapter but also where he teaches concerning the Rapture elsewhere.

Salvation for those in Christ, and the wrath of God, which abides on every man that does not believe for those that are not.

God bless.
 
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