Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

[rick357]

Man has a will that is compromised by Satanic internal evil influences.

We are all born under dominion of an evil will that is not ours.

There is no such animal as a 'free standing' individual will.

And yes, evil was/is created by God and is used by God, particularly in retributive fashions as shown throughout the O.T.

Evil is a power. All powers were created

I am aware God created that one who became Satan however what God created was perfect. but by Satan s choice or will he became evil

 

[Albion]

When it's presented as 2 different wills, in contention or division, it's a Trinity foul.

Not according to Trinitarians.

 

[squint]

I am aware God created that one who became Satan however what God created was perfect. but by Satan s choice or will he became evil

Being created a 'perfect devil' is in no way = to a holy angel.

It is a common christian fairy tale though.

 

[squint]

Not according to Trinitarians.

Just pointing it out. You'll have to ask another member if that is correct.

I was trained that dividing any member of the Trinity is taboo. And I generally concur with that assessment. Most who do divide the parties have deeper issues somewhere else as well.

 

[Gibs]

Because, in life, we often give advice simply because it's good advice. That is to say, we do not assess in advance all the nuances of the listener's thinking and/or his ability to respond in the way that's suggested. We just give sound advice.

And in this case, if we are speaking to one who happens to be among the Elect, urging him to do good or show mercy, that is entirely within the range of possibility for the reason that he HAS been chosen to salvation.

It is the premise that some expound that election is unconditional and that cannot be.

God is fair and just down to the least minute detail and scripture states He is not a respecter of persons.

Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Col 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven (yes who is!)

The case of the 144,000 is a good example, no doubt these are the elect and will be made up when the sealing is done in the foreheads.

In that is seen that a work is going forward of growth, they are not predestined or unconditionally elected.

With God all men are free, but not with men No! And we see that here in this discussion, some want to make it men are not free.

I declare to all, I am a free man in Jesus Christ.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Gibs]

The 'quick sniff test' is that it is improper to divide any part of the Trinity in any way as in attributing something to one and not the other.

How could a man divide the one and only God?

Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior.

God is not divided by man. He extended Himself to come and dwell in Jesus Christ in the fullness of time in all fullness and so God the Father was with men in that Body of flesh!

 

[Albion]

It is the premise that some expound that election is unconditional and that cannot be.

God is fair and just down to the least minute detail and scripture states He is not a respecter of persons.

I know that "God is love" overrides everything else in scripture for some Christians, and that people choose to believe that God acts as they think they would do if they were in his place. That's human nature to do. But the Bible gives us plenty of evidence that God elects and that those chosen are secure. I would not give any of it a second thought if it were not Scriptural.

 

[Gibs]

I know that "God is love" overrides everything else in scripture for some Christians, and that people choose to believe that God acts as they think they would do if they were in his place. That's human nature to do. But the Bible gives us plenty of evidence that God elects and that those chosen are secure. I would not give any of it a second thought if it were not Scriptural.

Election yes, but no way UNCONDITIONAL election.

It is unconditional election that is not Biblical!

God does not play favorites as He is just and that is not just. What you are saying is like saying the most will not and can not be of the elect.

Not true at all as there is not one who could not have come and been saved.

God has made the way of Salvation and it is only through Christ and any and all that have truly come to Him in full repentance have met the criteria to be His elect ones.

I will not follow you but am a solid follower of Jesus Christ as He dwelling in me is my only hope of Glory and the same for all men!

 

[BobRyan]

OSAS does not survive Ezek 18:20-26

OSAS does not survive the last 6 verses of Matt 18.

OSAS does not survive Gal 5:4.

OSAS does not survive John 15:1-12

OSAS does not survive 1Cor 6:5-12

OSAS does not survive Romans 11.

OSAS does not survive Hebrew 6

I believe Erose knows this to be true.

 

[Rick Otto]

Man has a will that is compromised by Satanic internal evil influences.

We are all born under dominion of an evil will that is not ours.

There is no such animal as a 'free standing' individual will.

And yes, evil was/is created by God and is used by God, particularly in retributive fashions as shown throughout the O.T.

Evil is a power. All powers were created

I am aware God created that one who became Satan however what God created was perfect. but by Satan s choice or will he became evil

God created will. What about it wasn't perfect?

 

[squint]

God created will. What about it wasn't perfect?

Were the wills of any of us singular you'd have a point.

Scripturally speaking there is no singular will in any person.

I like to use this simple example:

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul's will.

The will of the messenger of Satan.

Both in the same package that a flesh sight would only see as Paul.

s

 

[Rick Otto]

Were the wills of any of us singular you'd have a point.

Scripturally speaking there is no singular will in any person.

I like to use this simple example:

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul's will.

The will of the messenger of Satan.

Both in the same package that a flesh sight would only see as Paul.

s

Back up a few feet and look again, bro.
How does the will of either not perfectly fit God's plan of creation?

That's all I mean, but we were only discussing the human will, if I'm not mistaken.

I'm in a bit of a happy fog. My new band logo for the Prairie Gators was selling t shirts pretty fast for ten bucks apiece at the farmer's market today here were we play on Sundays. The "MasterGator" is an urban farmer too, and gave me a huge bag of awesome veggies for free. Wouldn't let me pay. Made thirty bucks in tips, and now the tshirts have half paid for themselves inside of three days!

 

[squint]

Back up a few feet and look again, bro.
How does the will of either not perfectly fit God's plan of creation?

That's all I mean.

True.

The red will prove to have served blue and God, as Superior. As it is written: Romans 9:12/Genesis 25:23

There will be a Perfect Outcome per The Superior Party's use of red.

Only The Superior Party could cause that to happen in any case of measures or uses.

 

[Rick Otto]

QUOTE=BobRyan;OSAS does not survive Ezek 18:20-26

[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
[22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
[23] Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

This righteousness spoken of in 26 is that obtained by completely obeying the law, which we both agree I'm sure, God KNEW only Jesus could do.
So that forces the conclusion that God gave us an impossible task in order to prove a point.

OSAS does not deny personal moral responsibility. It just keeps it in perspective so we don't get self motivated instead of God inspired.

OSAS does not survive the last 6 verses of Matt 18.

[26] The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[27] Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
[28] But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
[29] And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
[30] And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
[31] So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
[32] Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
[33] Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
[34] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

We should readily see that this is about the spiritual necessity of moral reciprocity as expressed in the golden rule, or the two greatest commandments, if you prefer.
It does not correlate allegoricaly with soteriology in that his request for mercy was only for patience in his paying the debt himself, not total debt forgiveness by vicarious payment.

OSAS does not survive Gal 5:4.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
No man BUT Christ could be justified by law, so any claim to that except by Him, was patently bogus.
"Fallen from grace" sounds more like "lost" like a sheep, it doesn't even sound much like eternal agony".

OSAS does not survive John 15:1-12

[1] I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[2] Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
[3] Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
[4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

This use of "in me" can't be the same as the "in Him" in Eph 1:4, which isn't used in parable or allegorical form. That may be your source of confusion.
These kind of branches that don't bear fruit fit more in behavioral pattern to those who make shallow committments that add up to a false confession (unfruitful grafting). This forces "those who abide in me" to refer to the elect, in Eph 1:4.

[6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
[7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
[8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
[9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
[10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
[12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

OSAS recognizes even the least of abiders will bear at least one fruit.
OSAS puts the penalty for our LACK of more fruit, will cause a loss of rewards in heaven, but not loss of eternal life.
1Cor3:15:If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

OSAS does not survive 1Cor 6:5-12

[5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
[6] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
[7] Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
[8] Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Going to court is consent to judicial power of judgement.
Doing any of these sins less than habitualy, or at least in the case of murder, with premeditated intent, are things we in aggregate, are guilty of, and God is willing to forgive His sheep, but not unbelieving goats. And remember, belief is not a decision we make, it is a gift of God's mercy determined by His determinate counsel (premeditation), and not depent on, or respecting of, individual merit, lest any should boast.

Dude! as so right on as you are about so many things. it kind of flabbergasts me that this isn't obvious to you. I so appreciate all the other points you make, I have to take this time with you.

OSAS does not survive Romans 11.

Ya know, it's a lot to ask a person to sift a whole chapter to look for what point you're trying to make... & I don't feel right about pasting a whole chapter here, so...
"[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
C,mon, Bob! This alone should clinch it for ya.
God is tellin' Zeke he don't know what he's talkin' about if he's tellin' himself God has abandoned His elect.
This also perfectly illustrates that Israeli blood & religious oaths and confessions do not constitute true faith, It illustrates pretty perfectly that "not all who are of Israel, are Israel."

Omigosh! It gets worse for those leaning on their performance:
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
OSAS respects salvation by grace, not salvation by maintaing an imputed righteousness. If a body is unable to attain, it is also going to need intervention to maintain. OSAS is not an invitation to self indulgence

OSAS does not survive Hebrew 6

You GOTTA be kiddin'! It OPENS with a rebuke of salvific merit in works !!!
[1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Any work motivated by desire for eternal life, is dead folly. Works of faith (not self righteousness) please God. God rewards those works IN heaven, not WITH heaven.

I sincerely value your input, so I hope this is of some help with OSAS, or at least I hope it dispels any notion you might have that your patience and usualy well substantiated assertions aren't highly valued.
Thank you, Bob.

 

[Gibs]

Do the OSAS ones not continue in sin? Well if they do they are not saved,

Of that Paul irons out the answer,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Ro 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Can't keep all those dominoes from falling. Can't keep the OSAS structure up.

 

[Gibs]

Can't keep all those dominoes from falling. Can't keep the OSAS structure up.

It is even a downhill fall!

 

[Albion]

Do the OSAS ones not continue in sin?

Of course. ALL men are sinners. The only question is whether or not they are saved. This is Christianity 101.

Of that Paul irons out the answer,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Ro 6:2 God forbid.

Oh no. Paul is speaking of DELIBERATELY CONTINUING. That is not what you asked above.

 

[Gibs]

Of course. ALL men are sinners. The only question is whether or not they are saved. This is Christianity 101.


Oh no. Paul is speaking of DELIBERATELY CONTINUING. That is not what you asked above.

When anyone continues in sin it is absolute that it is deliberately! Christ is not in you if you sin deliberately and Satan is the master in you.

Paul then goes on to tell you that he that is dead to sin don't continue in it.

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Reveals the problem that if one does he hasn't died of self.

Ro 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Without Christ in you none can do nothing, but,

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

 

[Rick Otto]

Can't keep all those dominoes from falling. Can't keep the OSAS structure up.

Keep repeating the same mistake in identifying the stucture of OSAS.