Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

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You will find Paul came to repentance first and then he began his walk with God. It was of his free will that he fell broken upon the Rock and so then Christ became his Master!

Saul never acted alone of his own free will. He was a slave of Satan as a blinded sinner.

Paul never acted alone. He reigned over the messenger of Satan that he carried in his flesh and the Holy Spirit was with him the whole way.

These matters of will are never only about a singular person. There are other parties involved. That being God and devils.

God coerces no man! God never compels the obedience of man. He leaves all free to choose whom they will serve.

Uh, yes, God does force people to do whatever it is that happens.

Keep in mind however that any given group of unbelievers are, in reality, blinded by another party, that being the god of this world. 2 Cor. 4:4.

And that blinding is entirely Divinely Intentional.

First case in point, Adam and Eve allowed another master for a just a little time, free to choose His or the word of the deceiver.

Their choice was costly!

Fairy tale. Read Mark 4:15 and you might actually see what happened to Adam and Eve. It was not a question of 'just and only them.'

Satan entered Adam immediately after the Word of blessing was bestowed upon Adam. From that point on you should no longer see 'just' Adam.

The natural man still can not see this reality, and are showing their blindness by failing to see the unseen.

s

 

[Gibs]

But we all know this, I'd hope. No one can know for sure that he or someone else is among the elect . That in no way argues against the reality of Election, however.



You're not speaking of Election if you are positing that the individual has first to prove himself to God. Election means being chosen by God unconditionally.

Why don't you think repentance does not need to be done first? No, no one has to prove himself to God but he first fall upon the Rock and be broken and if that is not done He cannot come within and dwell.

Without Christ in you there is no hope. Your soul temple must be cleaned of any other masters and the one hardest to cast out is self.

Self follows the flesh and must be killed and then reborn a new creature walking after Him, the Spirit of Christ now in you.

Then and only then can you come to be the elect. None are elected without at least one vote.

 

[rick357]

Yes, God forces them. Free will doesn't exist. People are blinded on purpose, and that by God. See Romans 11:8 as an easier example.

People (like Paul) were commanded by God for certain tasks. Paul had no choice. If God commanded you you would have no choice.

Jonah tried to run from Gods commandment. It didn't work for him either.

Balaam tried to curse Israel. 3 times no less. Didn't work.

in the prayer of the Lord in the garden he states not my will be done so clearly there r two whills that must come together as 1.

 

[Albion]

Why don't you think repentance does not need to be done first?

I have serious doubts about us humans being competent to know God's will on our own.

Without Christ in you there is no hope.

I presume that no one here is going to argue with that proposition.

Then and only then can you come to be the elect.

As I said before, "Election" means having been chosen. You don't attain a certain worthiness and then say that you are "elect." If that's the case, you wouldn't have been chosen to salvation ("elected") at all but, on the contrary, deserving of it.

 

[squint]

Why don't you think repentance does not need to be done first? No, no one has to prove himself to God but he first fall upon the Rock and be broken and if that is not done He cannot come within and dwell.

No one 'breaks' themselves so that God can do something or anything for that matter. God is not some helpless little pipsqueak subject to our behavior in order to act.

 

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in the prayer of the Lord in the garden he states not my will be done so clearly there r two whills that must come together as 1.

I'd suggest that a vastly Superior Infinite Will is fully engaged at all times over all things.

 

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in the prayer of the Lord in the garden he states not my will be done so clearly there r two whills that must come together as 1.

Oh, b 4 I forget, that presentation may be anti-Trinitarian, dividing Gods Will from Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Oh, b 4 I forget, that presentation may be anti-Trinitarian, dividing Gods Will from Jesus.

Probably not. There are many examples in Scripture of the human nature of Jesus coming through, even though he remained fully God.

 

[Gibs]

Saul never acted alone of his own free will. He was a slave of Satan as a blinded sinner.

Paul never acted alone. He reigned over the messenger of Satan that he carried in his flesh and the Holy Spirit was with him the whole way.

These matters of will are never only about a singular person. There are other parties involved. That being God and devils.



Uh, yes, God does force people to do whatever it is that happens.

Keep in mind however that any given group of unbelievers are, in reality, blinded by another party, that being the god of this world. 2 Cor. 4:4.

And that blinding is entirely Divinely Intentional.



Fairy tale. Read Mark 4:15 and you might actually see what happened to Adam and Eve. It was not a question of 'just and only them.'

Satan entered Adam immediately after the Word of blessing was bestowed upon Adam. From that point on you should no longer see 'just' Adam.

The natural man still can not see this reality, and are showing their blindness by failing to see the unseen.

s

So do you think you are an elect one? If so what makes you so sure? Faith based on presumption is not valid.

You are saying God forces His Subjects and that is not a truth for sure. How do I know? God is Love and He is Good and love does not force in any way.

Love will out of love work to persuade if possible but forces not one!

I or anyone would be foolish to buy into such a theory.

Man becomes a slave of Satan only because he chooses to believe his lies. Satan has most of men well deceived and deluded. His hold upon man then is strong and few can break loose.

It can only be done by the drawing Spirit of God and then the deceived one reaching out and of his own free will to God and then falling upon Him broken, surrendered fully and then the hold is broken. But any can return to the old wallowing.

 

[rick357]

Why don't you think repentance does not need to be done first? No, no one has to prove himself to God but he first fall upon the Rock and be broken and if that is not done He cannot come within and dwell.

Without Christ in you there is no hope. Your soul temple must be cleaned of any other masters and the one hardest to cast out is self.

Self follows the flesh and must be killed and then reborn a new creature walking after Him, the Spirit of Christ now in you.

Then and only then can you come to be the elect. None are elected without at least one vote.

Gibs buy now I'm sure it has become obvious that my understanding does not sit well with either camp. but the scripture is plain that a man with in himself cannot will to come to God. the most obvious reason is that those who dwell in darkness do not seek for light since they do not know it exists. even with Paul Christ appeared to him not he came to Christ. in this I agree with what most here say but I do not throw away a man's will. both Jesus and John the Baptist preached repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. why would my lord deceive people into believing they could repent when God has already decided who he would make to repent.

 

[Albion]

Gibs buy now I'm sure it has become obvious that my understanding does not sit well with either camp. but the scripture is plain that a man with in himself cannot will to come to God. the most obvious reason is that those who dwell in darkness do not seek for light since they do not know it exists. even with Paul Christ appeared to him not he came to Christ. in this I agree with what most here say but I do not throw away a man's will. both Jesus and John the Baptist preached repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. why would my lord deceive people into believing they could repent when God has already decided who he would make to repent.

Because, in life, we often give advice simply because it's good advice. That is to say, we do not assess in advance all the nuances of the listener's thinking and/or his ability to respond in the way that's suggested. We just give sound advice.

And in this case, if we are speaking to one who happens to be among the Elect, urging him to do good or show mercy, that is entirely within the range of possibility for the reason that he HAS been chosen to salvation.

 

[Gibs]

Gibs buy now I'm sure it has become obvious that my understanding does not sit well with either camp. but the scripture is plain that a man with in himself cannot will to come to God. the most obvious reason is that those who dwell in darkness do not seek for light since they do not know it exists. even with Paul Christ appeared to him not he came to Christ. in this I agree with what most here say but I do not throw away a man's will. both Jesus and John the Baptist preached repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. why would my lord deceive people into believing they could repent when God has already decided who he would make to repent.

Rick, The spirit of God reaches out to all fallen to Satan's deceptions just as he did for Paul. He did for me and I finally responded to His wooing Spirit and came then and fell on Him, broken and in deep repentance and then I began to grow up in Him after His Spirit.

God forces not one to repent, He only woos us to repent! Love woos and He is Love. Love does not force any to repentance! The heart that can be moved by His love finally responds. Many hearts cannot be moved.

 

[squint]

Probably not. There are many examples in Scripture of the human nature of Jesus coming through, even though he remained fully God.

The 'quick sniff test' is that it is improper to divide any part of the Trinity in any way as in attributing something to one and not the other.

 

[rick357]

I'd suggest that a vastly Superior Infinite Will is fully engaged at all times over all things.

of that I will say there is no doubt the Word of God itself tells us that by God's will he is bringing all of these things to an end. the problem is if one's position is that man has no will then by this assumption God becomes a creator of evil things.

 

[Albion]

The 'quick sniff test' is that it is improper to divide any part of the Trinity in any way as in attributing something to one and not the other.

All right then, give us your explanation of Jesus' prayers in the Garden or the meaning of his words when he said that it's not his will but the Father's that would be done.

 

[squint]

So do you think you are an elect one? If so what makes you so sure? Faith based on presumption is not valid.

I believe Jesus Is my Savior and that He will get the job done.

How that plays into the elect I really don't care. I have heard no direct commands from God in Christ. How about YOU?

You are saying God forces His Subjects and that is not a truth for sure. How do I know? God is Love and He is Good and love does not force in any way.

God purposefully blinded almost an entire nation of people, Israelites, in our behalf. You should be thankful for their blinding. And merciful to those thusly blinded.

Read all about it in Romans 11.

Love will out of love work to persuade if possible but forces not one!

I or anyone would be foolish to buy into such a theory.

Contrary to your beliefs God is not in 'need' of your performances.

He is not your puppet, unable to move unless 'you do' something.

s

 

[squint]

All right then, give us your explanation of Jesus' prayers in the Garden or the meaning of his words when he said that it's not his will but the Father's that would be done.

I'm just parroting the classic Trinitarian teachings on the matters which are generally that there is no division in the Trinity in any way.

For any detailed explanation on the above I would refer you to early orthodox scholars...for which there is a mountain of information, particularly on this subject.

 

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of that I will say there is no doubt the Word of God itself tells us that by God's will he is bringing all of these things to an end. the problem is if one's position is that man has no will then by this assumption God becomes a creator of evil things.

Man has a will that is compromised by Satanic internal evil influences.

We are all born under dominion of an evil will that is not ours.

There is no such animal as a 'free standing' individual will.

And yes, evil was/is created by God and is used by God, particularly in retributive fashions as shown throughout the O.T.

Evil is a power. All powers were created by God.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

 

[Albion]

I'm just parroting the classic Trinitarian teachings on the matters which are generally that there is no division in the Trinity in any way.

OK, but by the same token, you know that Trinitarians do not see this understandable event as in any way challenging to the definition of the Trinity.

 

[squint]

OK, but you know that Trinitarians do not see this understandable action as in any way a challenge to the definition of the Trinity.

When it's presented as 2 different wills, in contention or division, it's a Trinity foul.