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We have not been discussing that question. So perhaps you could clarify what you are asking? Such as what do you mean by cut off. Cut off from whom, from Israel or God or both? And how this question is relevant to the discussion at hand.
Jews that rejected the Gospel as we see in Romans 11. (Post 651 above)
And saved saints are being warned in Romans 11 that they too will be cut off if they fail to persevere in the faith as Christians.
in Christ,
Bob
G-d has not rejected the remnant.
G-d has not rejected the remnant that has been rejected by his people. If his people have faith like Elijah, the remnant would be grafted in again. All Israel would be saved, none rejected.
So then if they speak against wife-beating or spouse-cheating or porn or... do they say "not that you can stop this for even one second - but I would like you to think that as you do this - it is a bad thing"???
Sorry, wasn't involved in that conversation, so that was the reason for my confusion.I thought we were discussing romans 11? Pharisee Shaul maintains that G-d has not rejected his people. Remember how Elijah was rejected because of his faith? Those who were cut off or rejected were the very ones G-d preserved for himself ; they received grace, yes they were sent to bring salvation to the gentiles. Pharisee Shaul's argument is simple, just because his family have rejected him like they rejected Elijah, G-d has not rejected the remnant.
Jews that rejected the Gospel as we see in Romans 11. (Post 651 above)
And saved saints are being warned in Romans 11 that they too will be cut off if they fail to persevere in the faith as Christians.
in Christ,
Bob
I thought we were discussing romans 11? Pharisee Shaul maintains that G-d has not rejected his people. Remember how Elijah was rejected because of his faith? Those who were cut off or rejected were the very ones G-d preserved for himself ; they received grace, yes they were sent to bring salvation to the gentiles. Pharisee Shaul's argument is simple, just because his family have rejected him like they rejected Elijah, G-d has not rejected the remnant.
Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?
they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
-------------------------
is God warning the fully forgiven saved saints that they cannot obey and thus must be removed as were the unbelieving now-lost Jews? is it the impossible that God is asking for - even for saved saints who have access to the indwelling Holy Spirit??
is that the Gospel? or is that simply bad doctrine that does not fit the text?
Most honest preachers are against sin, and rightfully so.
Read what happened to the JEWS in Romans 11. How were they 'cut off?'
[/font]Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear ; ) unto this day.
Are you preaching against eternal hell as if just burning them for a few days in the Lake of Fire then destroyed both body and soul for all eternity is a good ending for them?Does anything there indicate they will be eternally killed (or burned alive forever?)
In Romans 11 Paul states explicitly that this only saved "some of them".Why then were they blinded? Again from Romans 11:
"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."
Indwelling sin is the continual presence of sin, of EVIL present.
Your insistence is not much different than that of the Roman catholic, that sin isn't really sin til we can see it with our eyes.
s
So then if they speak against wife-beating or spouse-cheating or porn or... do they say "not that you can stop this for even one second - but I would like you to think that as you do this - it is a bad thing"???
Is that all they are saying as they avoid Romans 11 and its warning to "you who stand by your faith"?
Sorry, wasn't involved in that conversation, so that was the reason for my confusion.
Romans 11 says "if they do not continue in unbelief" many Jews in Paul's day did continue in unbelief until the day they died.
But many others as in the case of Acts 2- accepted the Gospel.
Paul speaks in Romans 11 of the efforts that might result in "saving some of them".
So certainly as Paul said a remnant went through. No doubt.
in Christ,
Bob
Those who were cut off were not preserved - unless they "did not continue in unbelief" according to Romans 11.
Most did continue in it as it turns out.
of the few that did accept the Gospel - Paul was one.
God "foreknew" that some of them would accept the Gospel. Still.. most of them died in unbelief.
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal. 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
==========================
And that is the problem for OSAS because it says that the saved saints are in danger of being cut off - along with the lost Jews who continued in unbelief.
in Christ,
Bob
I know that there are a lot of SDA folks out there that absolutely hate my Faith, so I am glad when we can find common ground on matters. Perhaps this common ground will allow us to grow in understanding of our faith traditions.Erose - there is a thread here where it is doubted that I take the same side as the Catholic POV when opposing a tradition that does not agree with the Bible.
I offer this thread as an example of my support - no matter that it is not always popular.
in Christ,
Bob
Why would those who refuse to accept the truth receive the same punishment as those who walk by faith? Elijah was cut off by the king for his faith, Elijah prevailed after his offering on the altar.
I know that there are a lot of SDA folks out there that absolutely hate my Faith, so I am glad when we can find common ground on matters. Perhaps this common ground will allow us to grow in understanding of our faith traditions.
To be honest I know very little of Ariminian soteriology, and I so need to educate myself on its positions. To be honest ther is quite a bit of commonality between Catholic soteriology and Lutheran, Calvin and it seems Arminian as well. But very little in common with this mess called OSAS.
1. Well if you check my signature line .... you will see it.
Israel is the church, she put members out of her church. Those members can be grafted back again if she accepts their message. First you need to understand who is doing the rejecting and who is being rejected ; consider the prophet Elijah. In the days of Elijah who did the people reject?
Romans 11 is not talking about unbelieving Jews cutting off Christians - it is talking about God cutting off unbelieving Jews.
Rom 11
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Ask yourself this question when was the last time a speaker stood up in your local church and quoted this to affirm it - rather than to try and survive it?
they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
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