Why do some denominations not believe in Once Saved, Always Saved?

I guess two important questions to ask would be "what is grace?" and "what is salvation?" and a third to ask would probably be "do I have freedom and what am I?"

Noxot said:

I guess two important questions to ask would be "what is grace?" and "what is salvation?" and a third to ask would probably be "do I have freedom and what am I?"

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Eventually it would be nice if believers could get to the heart of this matter, and I think Paul does a pretty nice job of getting us there and understanding why there is diversity of sights on many of these matters:

Romans 9 does a really decent job of it, though I readily admit that Romans 9 in the hands of a butcher determinist can be an abomination:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Me is the same lump in which is contained both vessels.


Paul sets up these matters in Romans 7 where he shows that EVIL is present with him (can anyone spell vessel of DISHONOR) and shows the same thing again in Romans 11:8 where he shows that the spirit of slumber was put upon the people of Israel (can we again spell vessel of dishonor) and also shows that each of us are to purge ourselves from the vessel of dishonor in 2 Timothy 2:20-21.

Believers are called to understand these things personally.

So, in the same LUMP of Paul, there was Paul, a vessel of honor, a saved beyond any doubt child of God, and there was also THIS vessel of dishonor who could in no way be saved, legal, under Grace, forgiven or granted mercy by God for any reason whatsoever:

2 Cor. 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul was unquestionably saved. The messenger of Satan, the vessel of dishonor, the TEMPTER in our own minds and hearts will assuredly not be saved, period.

Therein lies the core of this matter for any to see and come to understand.

IF that vessel of dishonor REIGNS in this present life, then that person who might have believed is still saved, but they have assuredly fallen PREY to the other in this present life.

We are to RULE and to REIGN over the facts of our own indwelling sin, which in fact is DEMONIC.

I know that at least ONE PARTY in the lump really doesn't like to hear this GOSPEL, but it IS GOSPEL.

s

it is a real pain when you start to really want to be nothing but innocence and loving and then find that in your physical brain you have all kinds of patterns that fall short of the goodness of an innocent lamb and they are like a serpent who wants you to eat of this wicked tree and all you want to do is deny yourself but he screams out so loudly when you encounter your past situations with the plantings of the neurons you built up due to you acting like a fool in the past. then you find yourself in certain situations to have a constant nagging devil because evil was sown in your brain 5 years ago and it grew and made a neural pathway which though you now see it is no good you had rather wished you did not suffer evil to be your friend in the past at all and so you want only good for not only yourself but for all people.

so you feel like you are in purgatory in this earthly body. then you go about and learn that even dna might be able to record traumas people go through and you might pass it down genetically and this does nothing to comfort you other than to give you sympathy at the burden that weights down upon us all.

then you learn that if a mother goes through depression when she is pregnant that this might inflict all kinds of problems on the baby due to depression not allowing certain hormones to develop correctly with the fetus in the womb... then you say: " I guess I can see why those people who believe in a completely physical reality sometimes do not believe that people are free"

I could give more examples about the physical body and how if we let that alone be the guiding principle for our soul that we will never be truly happy but I would rather go on to say that through it all God uses all of it to draw us to himself and to praise him all the more. now the thorn in our side prods us along reminding us of what we do not want to be. and it gives us chances to love God in those times when we feel no consolation and no everlasting joy of God and so it helps us to be pure love all the more with God for great is the salvation of our God.

GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta said:

Why do some denominations, such as the Church of God, not believe in Once Saved Always Saved, even though the Bible clearly outlines that salvation is eternal? That is, salvation is by grace through faith and it is something that cannot be taken from you.

While I believe that grace covers such Christians and that they are genuinely saved for putting their faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, it must be somewhat troublesome to think that backsliding will result in you becoming detached from the Lord. It seems like it would hinder someone's growth in the Lord rather than promote obedience.

The thing is that God chooses us and we respond. He doesn't let go of us once we're a Child of God.

Sometimes it seems like such denominations haven't viewed the Bible in its entire scope, interpreting. What is your take on this subject?

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Why can no one tell us the actual mechanics of losing salvation ?



Have any of you "lost" your salvation and for what reason ?

If one opposes OSAS, then there should be empirical evidence.

It is logical that those who say salvation can be lost, have lost salvation.



How does one know with certainty that salvation has really been lost ?

And most importantly how is salvation re-captured and re-activated ?

Again, I am not questioning anyone's salvation, I am affirming salvation.

salvation is of God and so when we are not of God we are not saved. everything outside the new Jerusalem is gnashing of teeth and weeping. salvation is not a thing, God is salvation. salvation is not a belief system, it is a spiritual reality that we experience when we love God. salvation is a spiritual understanding that God loves us and seeks us to be well and goes through great lengths to show us that who he is is what image we ought to be conformed to. the Holy Spirit is all good virtues and he wishes to grow inside of us for all eternity because it is good that we be together rather than cut off from him and suffering in sin.

show me your salvation by your faith or by your works but if you don't have love you don't have anything. so again I ask "what is salvation?" because if salvation is justification then I would say that justification is not a proclamation or creed we repeat and believe but it is the process of being stripped of evil and merged with the heart of God. it is the process/participation of heavens will being done on the earth.

justification can never be some legalistic requirement. OSAS can not be a belief system only, it must be an expressed spiritual reality and this would look different than a mere psychological understanding of OSAS.

OSAS is justified or condemned by the life that a person lives be it in self delusion or be it in living out a pure spiritual life. one that does not affirm mercy for others does not affirm it for himself. let us probe into the deep psychological and spiritual reasons why a person believes what he believes and let us observe the kind of life the things they claim have them doing and being.

I bet a ton of people don't even know the reasons why they believe what they believe. I suggest everyone probe deeply with the help of God into their motivations and their heart for themselves, others, and God. do not be trapped in a belief system of any sort that only attempts to justify you to be what you have always been. Christ was not slain in vain and everyone will face God and their own shame or innocence will become very plain that day. so let us make sure we do not get caught up in things that will in the end only cause us to suffer shame. as we will then be shown how much we hated others and always loved ourselves and all that we did and believed was only for sin and not God or we will be shown we loved God out of purity of heart. not being perfect for God or not being in the condition God desires us to be in can be a very painful regret that love has over God if she did not love her Lord with all that she was enabled to.


she must not allow a belief in something tear her away from her Lord for everything should be for God because God gave himself to us. she should love her husband with all she is and be whatever her husband wants if truly she loves him. so it comes down to "does OSAS love God or not?"

Noxot said:

salvation is of God and so when we are not of God we are not saved. everything outside the new Jerusalem is gnashing of teeth and weeping. salvation is not a thing,

God is salvation. salvation is not a belief system, it is a spiritual reality that we experience when we love God. salvation is a spiritual understanding that God loves us and seeks us to be well and goes through great lengths to show us that who he is is what image we ought to be conformed to. the Holy Spirit is all good virtues and he wishes to grow inside of us for all eternity because it is good that we be together rather than cut off from him and suffering in sin.

Click to expand...

Salvation is also of the Son of YAHWEH, Jesus the Christ, just as Moses gave the Hebrews salvation from the Egyptians in the OT.....with heaps of help from YAHWEH of course.

Exodus 14:13
And Mosheh is saying to the people "must not be ye are fearing. Station yeselves! and see! the Salvation of YAHWEH which He shall do for ye this day.
The Egyptians ye see today, not ye shall add to see of them futher unto an age. [2 Chron 20:17]

Reve 12:10
And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven "now became the Salvation/swthria <4991> and the power and the Kingdom of our YAHWEH and the authority of His Christ,
that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the one accusing them in sight of our YAHWEH day and night. [John 5:45]


.

bottomofsandal said:

Why can no one tell us the actual mechanics of losing salvation ?

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Because we all interpret Scripture differently.

For instance, some non-OSAS people believe one can "lose" salvation by practicing any of the vice-listed items which exclude one from inheriting the Kingdom.

Others believe that only by willfully relinquishing one's faith can one forfeit salvation.

Have any of you "lost" your salvation and for what reason ?

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According to some Wesleyan perspectives, many Xians have repeatedly lost and regained their saved status by sinning and repenting.

According to the Classical/Reformation Arminian perspective exemplified by Picirilli and Forlines, no current Xian has ever lost salvation, because by definition such a person is no longer a Christian and never will be again.

If one opposes OSAS, then there should be empirical evidence.

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Why empirical? Why is Scriptural evidence insufficient?

It is logical that those who say salvation can be lost, have lost salvation.

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Ridiculous. There is nothing "logical" about that statement at all, except for people who base theology on experience much more than on Scripture.

How does one know with certainty that salvation has really been lost ?

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How does one "know with certainty" that one is saved?

And most importantly how is salvation re-captured and re-activated ?

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For those of certain Wesleyan views, it is regained by repentance.

For those of Classical/Reformation Arminian perspectives, once abandoned salvation can never be regained, because the person who abandoned it will never again repent.

Frankly - OSAS simply does not survive a careful review and acceptance of scripture.




Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
This application should not be so foreign to the objective unbiased non-OSAS Bible reader who has accepted basic teaching the Gospel of Matthew regarding the Lord's Prayer.

Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then thekindness and severityof God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

squint said:

The alternative to OSAS is [whatever given] list of personal performance for retention criteria.

At that point faith has fallen into being law with penalty. Could have just as well stuck to the law. At least it's a visible measure on the outside of the cup. No need to even add faith to the mix. Can't measure it anyway.

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So then you propose a rejection of the Bible teaching on falling from Grace because to accept the clear teaching of the Bible in that regard would mean we would have no way to reject Romans 2:13-16 ?

Or are you saying that the kind of Gospel where Matt 18 and Romans 2 are true - is not at all compatible with grace?

bottomofsandal said:

How often have you lost your salvation ?

I am not saying you are unsaved or questioning your salvation.

I am not questioning your salvation, you are secure in Christ.



You are against OSAS, therefore when are you not saved ?

This is a legitimate questioned based upon your pov.

Who better to ask about losing salvation than one who believes it ?

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It would not be logical to claim that to accept the Bible texts listed above over the man-made tradition of OSAS -- one must first lose their salvation.

I think we all see that point clearly.

in Christ,

Bob

bottomofsandal said:

Why can no one tell us the actual mechanics of losing salvation ?

Click to expand...

You mean ... like this

=========================================
-Matt 18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
This application should not be so foreign to the objective unbiased non-OSAS Bible reader who has accepted basic teaching the Gospel of Matthew regarding the Lord's Prayer.

Matt 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Noxot said:

I guess two important questions to ask would be "what is grace?" and "what is salvation?" and a third to ask would probably be "do I have freedom and what am I?"

Click to expand...

indeed.

"God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on him might not perish -- but have everlasting life".

Romans 10 describes the process of salvation.

John 1:11 describes the free will nature of salvation.

Matt 18, Romans 11, Gal 5:4 the fact that one can lose their salvation.

BobRyan said:

So then you propose a rejection of the Bible teaching on falling from Grace because to accept the clear teaching of the Bible in that regard would mean we would have no way to reject Romans 2:13-16 ?

Click to expand...

No one here rejects scripture, so let's get that old hack off the table.

You are presenting an idea that is not defined i.e. Bible teaching on falling from Grace and another idea that there is a need to reject Romans 2:13-16. Feel free to stretch those out to something tangible to discuss.

I'd suggest this entire topic matter is far more intense than what most care to bear about 'themselves.' If you read my post #522 in this thread I cited Paul's tracks through these matters.

You may find it more interesting if Paul's writings are taken personally and seriously.

What you should find is that God is in fact both friend and foe simultaneously.

And that is why there are these various views. Because nobody picks up the DIVINE TENSIONS and tackles them.

Or are you saying that the kind of Gospel where Matt 18 and Romans 2 are true - is not at all compatible with grace?

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Tried to be simple with you on matters of law so we could maybe find common ground. YES, I believe every jot and tittle of the LAW stands firm, secure and active to this day.

YET I simultaneously accept that same law is fully against the sin that indwells all of us and that indwelling sin can never will never be 'legal.' And even more, that even trying to do so results in empowering sin.

So the idea of a legal sinner is beyond the reaches of reasoning because quite frankly, it's ignorant on the surface.

Even when a person is legal (as it is commonly claimed by the external measures of the cup) they are and remain sinners, so legality is only skin deep as they say. As far as I can see it's just a bad bunch of bad acting coupled with a whole lot of dishonesty and hypocrisy.

I have no illusions about sin and the fact of it's present applications in reality and have no desires to claw my way into a logical fallacy by being 'legal.'

Your entire system revolves (in my eyes) around a logical fallacy, i.e. if you break the law, you sin, are condemned and stand in the condemnation of potential eternal death.

I accept that sin results in the death we all experience, bodily, per Paul here:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Dead men have no uses of putting their sin back under the law, to see if it behaves better after the fact of belief. Better to see it for what it is, always illegal, always resisting, always lying, always hypocritical always falsely judging, always self serving and above all else

NEVER LOVING.

It would not be logical to claim that to accept the Bible texts listed above over the man-made tradition of OSAS -- one must first lose their salvation.

I think we all see that point clearly.

Click to expand...

There is no empirical tangible proof of having, losing or not losing salvation. The positions are held by an intangible called faith.

Having faith that you might not be saved seems a bit odd use of faith wouldn't you say?

And why is it you feel the need to threaten yourself into performing to obtain salvation anyway? What is faith by threat but the reactions of fear for your eternal hide. That's not faithful performance, it's solely fear based performance, and not a good one at that.

I can assure you our 'sin' is not able to earn it's way past the gatekeeper no matter how good of an actor one becomes.

None of us really even know who we are because of sin. Our life is hid with God in Christ. I'd suggest the Mediator Is Able and needed to form us for eternal habitation and it will come with CHANGE of our mortal bodies that currently have 'issues.' The expectations of faith should look to that rather than make the flesh dance on obedience strings. I expect to be glad to rid myself of it.

s

BobRyan said:

indeed.

"God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on him might not perish -- but have everlasting life".

Romans 10 describes the process of salvation.

John 1:11 describes the free will nature of salvation.

Matt 18, Romans 11, Gal 5:4 the fact that one can lose their salvation.

Click to expand...

Isn't it nice how we can disagree so much on one subject then basically agree on another.With the exception of taking that free will too far I come to the same conclusion. Your Matt. 18 Parable was spot on. It teaches the truth. While I don't think it was that man's will to lose his salvation, he definitely lost it by forgetting how we treat others is how we treat Christ.
I also consider what Christ said after he taught us to pray. If we don't forgive neither are we forgiven. I understand the desire for a blessed assurance. But better to work it out with fear and trembling as salvation is not deserved, earned nor bought by us. I often wonder if many understand what it means to work it out? Most simply assume it has the modern meaning of working something out in your mind. It's deeper than that. Not to gain salvation but because we have entered into it we work it out.

Mama Kidogo said:

Isn't it nice how we can disagree so much on one subject then basically agree on another.With the exception of taking that free will too far I come to the same conclusion. Your Matt. 18 Parable was spot on. It teaches the truth. While I don't think it was that man's will to lose his salvation, he definitely lost it by forgetting how we treat others is how we treat Christ. .

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That is true - the CF context allows us to share differences and also to find common ground of agreement. Calvinism has a foundation for OSAS but the Bible's Arminian model for free will does not - and Catholics, Methodists, Seventh-day Adventists and others agree on that point.

One of the things I appreciate about the Catholic input on this subject is that it is all sola-scriptura based. On the sola scriptura threads I get a lot of push back from Catholic posters - but on threads like this they actually join with my approach to the subject - to show that the Bible itself speaks to the subject in way that should help everyone see the issue clearly.

in Christ,

Bob

squint said:

No one here rejects scripture, so let's get that old hack off the table.

You are presenting an idea that is not defined i.e. Bible teaching on falling from Grace and another idea that there is a need to reject Romans 2:13-16. Feel free to stretch those out to something tangible to discuss.

Click to expand...

I provide a list of texts - and quote them showing that OSAS does not survive the text.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

The response was made that we would all need to be legalists if we reject OSAS - in favor of the texts listed in that post.

Romans 2:13-16 is clear about the need to not simply be a "hearer of the law" - but a doer.

Your entire system revolves (in my eyes) around a logical fallacy, i.e. if you break the law, you sin, are condemned and stand in the condemnation of potential eternal death.

Click to expand...

Both Romans 3 and Galatians 3 make that case about the lost. The Law even after the cross condemns the lost as sinners and doomed to the second death.

You may be objecting to the idea that the saved saints can fall from grace by sinning (not with each sin - but following a path of sin as Paul points out in 1Cor 6) -- and that is where the warning in Matt 18, and Romans 11, and Gal 5:4 (and 1Cor 6 and ...) comes in.

Having faith that you might not be saved seems a bit odd use of faith wouldn't you say?

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Indeed -- if there were no bible texts talking about the subject (or if all of them could be avoided when they do speak to the subject) then simply coming up with that sort of "faith that one might lose salvation" would indeed be an odd choice.

But the texts that refute OSAS are hard to dismiss as I pointed out in that post linked to above.

And why is it you feel the need to threaten yourself into performing to obtain salvation anyway?

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If those texts at this link

Did not exist then I certainly would not want to "threaten myself" with non-existent texts.

But if the requirement from OSAS POV is to avoid the texts or call others evil who notice them etc - then I draw the line.

For now - those texts do exist.

What is faith by threat but the reactions of fear for your eternal hide. That's not faithful performance, it's solely fear based performance, and not a good one at that.

Click to expand...

Your argument is "with the text" you are arguing as to why they should not exist.

That does not solve the problem for OSAS because the texts do exist.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7828521-53/#post65913382

in Christ,

Bob

NorrinRadd said:

How does one "know with certainty" that one is saved?


For those of certain Wesleyan views, it is regained by repentance.

For those of Classical/Reformation Arminian perspectives, once abandoned salvation can never be regained, because the person who abandoned it will never again repent.

Click to expand...

Thank you for answering !

Some folks can't, won't, or don't have the chops.



Can you tell me anyone here is not saved ?

I have no doubt. Put that notion in the bin.



If the sinless perfection crowd is stuck with an on again off again salvation due to committing a sin, that is one definition I suppose. But, as saints, they are restored quickly to salvation. Those who cannot repent have lost nothing. Their heart is stone, and never was changed.

BobRyan said:

I provide a list of texts - and quote them showing that OSAS does not survive the text.

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It's been noted to you multiple times that zero of those citings show a fallen believer eternally killed. Zero.

And the matters are even more interesting if we see ourselves accurately. Haven't plumbed the quote mine for this thread but have you ever sat down with the texts that present an opposing view and went through them? I've done this for nearly every position there is, with positions counter to what I held and more than once I had to change in favor of the Word.

The response was made that we would all need to be legalists if we reject OSAS - in favor of the texts listed in that post.

Romans 2:13-16 is clear about the need to not simply be a "hearer of the law" - but a doer.

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Being a doer doesn't automatically have an equal sign next to it meaning actor. It is MORE legitimate to CONDEMN with the LAW than to pretend with the LAW. Romans 7:10-11 is a good example.

My main beef with legalists is that you all, down to the last person, continually excuse your evil defiling thoughts as sin. Those who say they don't have them are liars.

I won't recount the matter here, but I learned this lesson in a round about way from the name it and claim it crowd, trying to reign in my own speech which eventually connected, logically so, to the thought processes.

Both Romans 3 and Galatians 3 make that case about the lost. The Law even after the cross condemns the lost as sinners and doomed to the second death.

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The Law condemns sin, period. It's not some game people get to play called try and fail. No amount of lawkeeping makes an adherent temporary sinless. So, the observation factually falls to those who do so are legal sinners, which I would consider a delusional fantasy because it's a local fallacy.

There is no such animal as a legal sinner.

You may be objecting to the idea that the saved saints can fall from grace by sinning

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Not saying that at all. No one performs themselves sinless, period. There is no 'when we sin' measure. Sin indwells us and is a constant adverse companion.

(not with each sin - but following a path of sin as Paul points out in 1Cor 6) -- and that is where the warning in Matt 18, and Romans 11, and Gal 5:4 (and 1Cor 6 and ...) comes in.

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You have a false notion about sin, as in, when I'm NOT CAUGHT committing it, then I'M GOOD, meaning SINLESS. That is never ever the case.

Paul had evil present with him. Romans 7:21. None of us escape that same conclusion. Any of us can stand here seeming good, but the fact is every last one of us has, as Paul, EVIL PRESENT with him.

That is why hypocrites are such bad actors. They know this inside, but they PRETEND that is not the case. And God knows how bad of actors they are. There is no hiding this from God.

Did not exist then I certainly would not want to "threaten myself" with non-existent texts.

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I have no issues with threatening sin because sin is of the devil. I know where the BAD WORDS are directed to, so even the BAD WORDs of God are LIFE to me and not in any kind of threatening way to me as Gods child.

I directed you earlier to post #522 in this thread. The interesting part about those matters is that they can be laid out in plain and open sight, yet people still can't see them.

But if the requirement from OSAS POV is to avoid the texts or call others evil who notice them etc - then I draw the line.

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Non OSAS adherents certainly ignore or deny every last pro OSAS text there is and there is A LOT of them that would have to be eliminated from the text if the position is false.

I also laid out to you several times, to which you've never responded, Romans 11:25-32. It shows clearly there that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel shall be saved. ALL of them. Why is it you avoid that scripture set? Fraid?

s

bottomofsandal said:

If the sinless perfection crowd is stuck with an on again off again salvation due to committing a sin, that is one definition I suppose.

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There is a false notion that when people are not committing the action of sin, then they are neither sinners nor sinning.

That is where part of the lie resides.

We remain sinners from the day we are born til the day we die. Not one of us is ever 'sinless' the entire time, not even for a second. So the notion that anyone is then legal is a lie as well. There are no 'legal sinners.' The notion itself is idiocy.

But, as saints, they are restored quickly to salvation.

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Uh huh. STILL being sinners I might add. No one 'repents' themselves into being sinless either.

Those who cannot repent have lost nothing. Their heart is stone, and never was changed.

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It's a failure of honesty. That is one matter. People like to view themselves only in a good light, never in an honest light.

Another problem they perceive is that if they let their hand off the wheel, they will fall into sin. Well, the fact is they never quit being 'in sin' to begin with. People are WAYYY to easy on the sin quotient. Jesus was clear that EVIL THOUGHTS DEFILE us. Yet these same 'temporarily sinless' people will excuse such EVIL DEFILEMENT all the day long as not sin, even though it's plain from Jesus Mouth that they are EVIL and that they DEFILE. Oh, but they're not sin? Fat chance. All sin starts in the THOUGHT realm and SIN is just as ugly on the inside as the outside in Gods Eyes.

s

Noxot said:

salvation is of God and so when we are not of God we are not saved.

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Not sure what this means, is there a corresponding Bible verse ?


Jesus told us we are born OF God in John 3.

What would one have to do to cease to be "OF" God ?

Is anyone of us powerful enough to UNdo what God has done ?

NorrinRadd said:

Why empirical? Why is Scriptural evidence insufficient?


Ridiculous. There is nothing "logical" about that statement at all, except for people who base theology on experience much more than on Scripture.

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Why will no one who is ANTI-OSAS admit they have lost their salvation ?

If this is your pov, but it lacks empirical evidence, then why subscribe to it ?



Since a pro-OSAS sees anti-OSAS proof texts as eisegesis, where do we look for evidence and proof of folks losing their salvation ? It is rather peculiar that no one in the anti-OSAS crowd will fess up that they have lost salvation (and regained) if this is what they are basing their eternity on, as well as preaching to the unsaved.



The Bible does not have one example whatsoever.

Is there a man or woman who loses their salvation ?

Show us where Jesus says to someone they forfeited external life.

squint said:

There is a false notion that when people are not committing the action of sin, then they are neither sinners nor sinning.

That is where part of the lie resides.

We remain sinners from the day we are born til the day we die. Not one of us is ever 'sinless' the entire time, not even for a second.

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That theology splits itself into condemnation of profane sins and blessings for sacred sins with non-stop rebellion against the Law of God (in some form or another) as "the norm".

By contrast the Bible says the saints actually keep the Law of God while the lost "cannot" keep it.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 John 5:1-4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.


Rev 14:12
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


2 Peter 2:14
Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children


1 Cor 10
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.



1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.