Why do some Christian's dismiss Creationism?

[ThaiDuykhang]

I'd like to address this part first. Let's not put this in the context of Christianity. God's power is not proven to be true, it has not been demonstrated to be true, and the act of creation is not irrefutable, but it is unfalsifiable (which makes it fail as a scientific theory).

Let's stick to science for the time being.

You're welcome.

This is false. The speed of speciation is dependant upon the speed of reproduction (because that's where evolution takes place)....

What you and everyone else observed so far are all microevolution which is fact. But you then say macroevolution is right because there is microevolution.
stop confusing concepts. microevolution happens but it has a boundary, it never goes far. macroevolution the crossing of species never happens.
Even if you can produce more body hair than every one of us you're still human, get it. that's microevolution but you can never develop wings which is macroevolution.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Please give a scientific definition from a scientific source for microevolution and macroevolution.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Please regale us with the Hawaiian and Chinese flood stories.

Did you know that the chinese also have a "cinderella" story. Does that mean that Cinderella was a real true girl?

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

1. Don't bare false witness against whole Christian Church. even TEs won't appreciate your first paragraph

That is is reference to my statement that the facts that most Christians celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th, and recognize Sunday as the sabbath are of pagan origins.

You call that false witness? Where in the bible does it say to recognize sunday as the sabbath, or that Christ was born on Dec 25th?

Did you know that when the Romans authorities accepted christianity as the state religion they had to sway people to convert. Many Romans were sun worshiping pagans or Mithrians (also pagans) who celebrated Dec. 25th as a time of rebirth. These sun worshipers also recognized Sunday as their special day. So why get people to change old habits. Its easier to convert people when they don't have to give up their traditions. Simply convert the pagan traditions to christian. Thats how it was done in Mexico (ever hear of the day of the dead, a mexican catholic celebration with roots in pagan aztec culutre) . I suppose you think christmas trees are original christian ideas too? How about easter, all those pagan fertility symbols (rabbits and such).

The whole christianization of pagan beliefs about sunday and Dec. 25th are well documented. DO you dispute them, with your odd take on human history.

I also find it funny when protestants put down the catholic church and talk about how much more christian they are then those papists. Why then carry on pagan traditions? Doesnt that just make protestants waward catholics. Maybe they should pucker up for the pope's ring.

Face it, we christians have adopted a whole lot of pagan tradition. Mostly for the sake of making converting easier.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Please give a scientific definition from a scientific source for microevolution and macroevolution.

simple for me,
[bible]

Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
[/bible]

a dog can change into a wolf or vice versa. it's microevolution. they're of the same kind.
God never say ... after his species
a dog can cross-breed with a wolf. but can you cross-breed with a rock or an ameba?

now it's your turn. what's your definition?

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Please regale us with the Hawaiian and Chinese flood stories.

Did you know that the chinese also have a "cinderella" story. Does that mean that Cinderella was a real true girl?

Can you give me the Chinese or Vietnamese name of Cinderella? About Asian things, I'm more familiar with that than those english translations. better yet, find a text in Chinese or Vietnamese on Cinderella so that I can verify OK?

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

That is is reference to my statement that the facts that most .

Christmas is the day Christ is born. if this is a pagan idea, tell me why you don't call our popes "harlot of babylon"? further more why no Christian celebrity it on a day without pagan influence? Orthodox celebrate it on another day but it's more likely because of calender problems. if you think they're right. why don't you convert? it's a serious theological question. you better think twice before making those remarks.

We put up nativity scenes on Christmas. why? because it's the day Christ is born.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Late_Cretaceous if you insist on Christmas is a lie, you shouldn't accusing others of being anti-Catholic. you've already made Catholicism look bad enough. Catholic Church never recognizes Christmas is lie or pagan belief.

I searched the net, there's no indication from any Catholic source that the date of Christmas was set by pagans and isn't the birthday of Jesus Christ

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Please show me the bible verse where it gives the date of Jesus' birth.

What exactly is a "kind". Is kind the same as species?

I aksed for a scientific reference for the definition of micro evolution and macroevolution. You did not provide it. Even with your scriptural reference, you actually did not provide a reference for the distinction between micro and macro evolution. If indeed your bible verse is a reference to macro evolution, why would the bible mention something that you claim does not exist.

You asked me for my definition of microevolution and macroevolution. Well, I never claimed that either of these terms were truely scientic terms because they are not. Microevolution and macroevolution are laymens terms, not scientific ones. As far as I am familiar, these terms only come up in creation vs evolution debates. As far as I am concerned they are nonsensical. Generally, however, laymen use the term microevolution to mean change within a species (which many creationists claim is possible) and macroevolution to mean change from one species to another aslo called speciation (which many creationists claim is impossible ).

Would you say that macroevolution = speciation?



In the story of the Chinese Cinderella she is called Yeh-Shen (there is also a chinese red riding hood FYI)[SIZE=+1] http://www.unc.edu/~rwilkers/resource-china.htm

[/SIZE]

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

Late_Cretaceous if you insist on Christmas is a lie, you shouldn't accusing others of being anti-Catholic. you've already made Catholicism look bad enough. Catholic Church never recognizes Christmas is lie or pagan belief.

I searched the net, there's no indication from any Catholic source that the date of Christmas was set by pagans and isn't the birthday of Jesus Christ

Where did you search? I can do a google search and come up with that in about 30 seconds. Here you go...
http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/pagan.htm
[SIZE=-1]www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.zenzibar.com/Articles/christmas.asp
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]paganwiccan.about.com/cs/aboutyule/a/paganxmas.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.balaams-ass.com/journal/resource/xmass.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-traditions.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]



Please show me where I said Christmas is a lie.

Just because I said that the tradition of celebrating christmas on a certain date is of pagan orgins does not mean that I don't believe in Jesus' birth. It just means that Dec. 25 and christmas trees have little to do with His birth and more to do with ancient pagan traditons welcomming back the return or their sun-god after the winter solstice.


I find your debating techniques to be very dishonest. You obviously do not read the posts to which you are addressing, you do not answer questions (although you claim to), you put words in peoples mouths (I never said that the "catholic church never recognizes Christmas is lie or pagan belief."). In additon, you seem to have little intelectual grasp of what you are talking about. In order to debate properly you must be armed with facts and knowledge otherwise it is like showing up to a gunfight with a lollypop.

Oh, and by the way the Catholic Church does in fact recognize that many christmas traditions including the date are of pagan origin

From the Catholic Encyclopedia

"The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism,"

 

[shernren]

After 150 years of digging to prove a 'fact' that has left 4,500 million years of proof, what you have is 15 controversial specimens? A bin bag full? Are you trying to be funny, friend?

Half the ones on that list are already dropped.

Do tell me. Which half?

http://www.mbowden.surf3.net/Aprecon.htm

You're expecting me to trust a site which supports the spurious Japanese plesiosaur story??

Besides, that only answers to spurious human-ape links, which doesn't cover about 12 categories on the talk.origins site.

To Late_Cretaceous: I agree that we cannot recognize Sunday as being analogous with the Jews' Sabbath. It's completely out. If Sunday were Sabbath then Christians wouldn't be able to drive, travel overseas, conduct business, or so much as go to the movies on Sunday. The whole concept is different ... as far as I know / have been taught, Christians worship on Sunday to respect it as the day of the week on which Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

You are right however that it is not something Scriptural (which is not to say it is wrong), and that it is probably more due to Constantine wanting to accommodate and encourage Christianity by making Sunday a Roman holiday; as well as that Christmas is fundamentally a pagan celebration, both in ancient and modern times.

 

[shernren]

I searched the net, there's no indication from any Catholic source that the date of Christmas was set by pagans and isn't the birthday of Jesus Christ

You don't need the Internet, all you need is the Bible. It's inconceivable for "shepherd to keep watch over their flock by night" on December 24th/25th smack in the middle of winter. It's far more probable that Jesus was born somewhere in April coinciding with the Feast of Tabernacles, which is significant as Jesus' birth did represent God coming and "tabernacle-ing" with us.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Where did you search? I can do a google search and come up with that in about 30 seconds. Here you go...
http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
http://www.serve.com/shea/germusa/pagan.htm
[SIZE=-1]www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.zenzibar.com/Articles/christmas.asp
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]paganwiccan.about.com/cs/aboutyule/a/paganxmas.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.balaams-ass.com/journal/resource/xmass.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.gotquestions.org/Christmas-traditions.htm
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/trees.html [/SIZE]

wiccan? ccg? are they Catholic? show me any papal (past popes ok) document explicitly teaches Christmas isn't the birthday of Jesus Christ and I'll go to Vatican to spit B16 on the nose, accusing him of being "harlot of babylon" and become schismatic.
looks quite simple, eh?

about your quote in Catholic Encyclopedia. where did it say Jesus wasn't born on Dec 25th? Do Virgin Mary has to put off the delivery a day or two just because it's has something to do with pagans?
I guess every day in a year has something to do with pagan. then Jesus Christ will never be born.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

You don't need the Internet, all you need is the Bible. It's inconceivable for "shepherd to keep watch over their flock by night" on December 24th/25th smack in the middle of winter.

I guess sheep are all slaughtered in winter?

It's far more probable that Jesus was born somewhere in April coinciding with the Feast of Tabernacles, which is significant as Jesus' birth did represent God coming and "tabernacle-ing" with us.

Find me a famous Catholic or Protestant agrees with this and show me how good his/her faith is.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

I find your debating techniques to be very dishonest. You obviously do not read the posts to which you are addressing, you do not answer questions (although you claim to), you put words in peoples mouths (I never said that the "catholic church never recognizes Christmas is lie or pagan belief."). In additon, you seem to have little intelectual grasp of what you are talking about. In order to debate properly you must be armed with facts and knowledge otherwise it is like showing up to a gunfight with a lollypop.

Ad hominem attack. when you resort to this it shows you're losing.

I don't care what pagan festival is on December 25th. but it's called Christmas because Jesus Christ is born on that day. this is the origin of Christmas.
You use evolution to destroy the origin of man now you use evolution to destory the origin of Christmas.

 

[ebia]

ThaiDuykhang[/B]]Catholics don't think John Kerry or Paul Martin will make it to heaven if unrepentant.
Any Catholic disagree with me?

They have the correct belief of Jesus is God and the wrong belief of abortion/homosexuality etc are OK.

It must be really scary believing in God who makes you pass an entrance exam for heaven.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

It must be really scary believing in God who makes you pass an entrance exam for heaven.

He already make an entrance exam of heaven right on earth. do you think atheists and agnostics are going to pass?

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

and there's no test after you're dead. you can't change and just have to accept your fate after death.
I'm not quite familiar with Protestant theology but I guess God knows your act of faith is genuine or false. if it's genuine you're saved, if not, you'll still end up in hell. how about an atheist say "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal savior" and continue to act like an atheist. do you think he's saved?

 

[ebia]

He already make an entrance exam of heaven right on earth. do you think atheists and agnostics are going to pass?

Such a travesty of the Christian message. Sigh.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Such a travesty of the Christian message. Sigh.

Do you think atheists and agnostics are going to heaven? if so, that's a heresy called universalism (note: "universalism" has other irrelevent meanings) and condemned by Catholic Church long ago. as for Protestant Church, I think one can't enter heaven without being saved. and you're saved only after you accept Jesus as your personal Savior right?