Why do some Christians claim that the Bible is pro-life, when it is clearly not?

Natsumi Lam

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Well i think it is important to note that the Holy Spirit can infill a bany in the womb. We may want to consider a fetus being cognicient and alive. Also John leapt in Elizabeth's tummy at the sound of Mary. The baby was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1: 13 - 15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
 
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Southernscotty

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What do you make of Hosea 13:16 when God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”
The Israelites were supposed to clear their inheritance of all wickedness and idol worship. That is why God said let nothing live, Not even the animals, because that is how bad sin infiltrates areas.

The Old Testament records God killing multitudes of people, and some people want to believe this makes Him a murderer. The misconception that “killing” and “murder” are synonymous is partially based on the King James mistranslation of the sixth commandment, which reads, “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). However, the word kill is a translation of the Hebrew word ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause. The correct rendering of this word is “murder,” and all modern translations render the command as “You shall not murder.” The Bible in Basic English best conveys its meaning: “Do not put anyone to death without cause.”

It is true that God has intentionally killed many people. (God never “accidentally” does anything.) In fact, the Bible records that He literally wiped out entire nations including women, children, cattle, etc. In addition to that, God killed every living creature upon the face of the earth with the exception of eight people and the animals on the ark (Genesis 7:21-23; 1 Peter 3:20). Does this make Him a murderer?

As already stated, to kill and to murder are different things. Murder is “the premeditated, unlawful taking of a life,” whereas killing is, more generally, “the taking of a life.” The same Law that forbids murder permits killing in self-defense (Exodus 22:2).

In order for God to commit murder, He would have to act “unlawfully.” We must recognize that God is God. “His works are perfect, and all His ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4; see also Psalm 11:7; 90:9). He created man and expects obedience (Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 23:21; 2 John 1:6). When man takes it upon himself to disobey God, he faces God’s wrath (Exodus 19:5; Exodus 23:21-22; Leviticus 26:14-18). Furthermore, “God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If [man] does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready” (Psalm 7:11-12).

Some would argue that executing the innocent is murder; thus, when God wipes out whole cities, He is committing murder. However, nowhere in Scripture can we find where God killed “innocent” people. In fact, compared to God’s holiness, there is no such thing as an “innocent” person. All have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23a). God has “just cause” to wipe us all out; the fact that He doesn’t is proof of His mercy.

When God chose to destroy all mankind in the Flood, He was totally justified in doing so: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).

During the conquest of Canaan, God ordered the complete destruction of entire cities and nations: “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you” (Deuteronomy 20:16-17). And Joshua did what God had told him (Joshua 10:40).

Why did God give such a command? Israel was God’s instrument of judgment against the Canaanites, who were evil, almost beyond what we can imagine today: “Every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods” (Deuteronomy 12:31). Their utter annihilation was commanded to prevent Israel from following their ways: “Lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:18; also Deuteronomy 12:29-30).

Even in the dire judgments of the Old Testament, God offered mercy. For example, when God was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, God promised Abraham that He would spare the whole city in order to save ten righteous people there. Though God did destroy those cities (ten righteous people could not be found), He saved “righteous Lot” and his family (Genesis 18:32; Genesis 19:15; 2 Peter 2:7). Later, God destroyed Jericho, but He saved Rahab the harlot and her family in response to Rahab’s faith (Joshua 6:25; Hebrews 11:31). Until the final judgment, there is always mercy to be found.

Every person dies in God’s own time (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19). Jesus holds the keys of death (Revelation 1:18). Does the fact that everyone experiences physical death make God a “killer”? In the sense that He couldprevent all death, yes. He allows us to die. But He is no murderer. Death is part of the human experience because we brought it into the world ourselves (Romans 5:12). One day, as John Donne put it, “Death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.” God, in His grace, has conquered death for those who are in Christ, and one day that truth will be fully realized: “The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26).

God is faithful to His word. He will destroy the wicked, and He holds “the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” (2 Peter 2:9). But He has also promised that “the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23b).
 
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Brother Billy

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Well i think it is important to note that the Holy Spirit can infill a bany in the womb. We may want to consider a fetus being cognicient and alive. Also John leapt in Elizabeth's tummy at the sound of Mary. The baby was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1: 13 - 15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

My own personal opinion is that human life begins at conception and abortion is wrong (except where the mothers life is in danger). The question is: what does God think about abortion?

I don't see why the verse you quoted is relevant to the subject of this thread? According to Christianity, God is omnipotent so he can do anything he wants to do. He could fill a fetus with anything whether or not he thinks the fetus has the same rights to life as a person does. And just because he did something special for John, it doesn't mean he does the same thing for all human babies.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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My own personal opinion is that human life begins at conception and abortion is wrong (except where the mothers life is in danger). The question is: what does God think about abortion?

I don't see why the verse you quoted is relevant to the subject of this thread? According to Christianity, God is omnipotent so he can do anything he wants to do. He could fill a fetus with anything whether or not he thinks the fetus has the same rights to life as a person does.
It say John would be filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. That was the above content that a fetus is good enough for the Holy Spirit why not a soul?

The Original Poster Facinated by God changed his original posts a couple of times and contridicted himself. The post i made has to do with his original original post.He ORIGINALLY said the soul is imparted upon birth...then he said in third trimester....then second trimester ...then a soul chooses when it wants to be imparted....and it changed again.
 
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Brother Billy

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The Israelites were supposed to clear their inheritance of all wickedness and idol worship. That is why God said let nothing live, Not even the animals, because that is how bad sin infiltrates areas.

The Old Testament records God killing multitudes of people, and some people want to believe this makes Him a murderer. The misconception that “killing” and “murder” are synonymous is partially based on the King James mistranslation of the sixth commandment, which reads, “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). However, the word kill is a translation of the Hebrew word ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause. The correct rendering of this word is “murder,” and all modern translations render the command as “You shall not murder.” The Bible in Basic English best conveys its meaning: “Do not put anyone to death without cause.”

It is true that God has intentionally killed many people. (God never “accidentally” does anything.) In fact, the Bible records that He literally wiped out entire nations including women, children, cattle, etc. In addition to that, God killed every living creature upon the face of the earth with the exception of eight people and the animals on the ark (Genesis 7:21-23; 1 Peter 3:20). Does this make Him a murderer?

As already stated, to kill and to murder are different things. Murder is “the premeditated, unlawful taking of a life,” whereas killing is, more generally, “the taking of a life.” The same Law that forbids murder permits killing in self-defense (Exodus 22:2).

In order for God to commit murder, He would have to act “unlawfully.” We must recognize that God is God. “His works are perfect, and all His ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4; see also Psalm 11:7; 90:9). He created man and expects obedience (Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 23:21; 2 John 1:6). When man takes it upon himself to disobey God, he faces God’s wrath (Exodus 19:5; Exodus 23:21-22; Leviticus 26:14-18). Furthermore, “God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If [man] does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready” (Psalm 7:11-12).

Some would argue that executing the innocent is murder; thus, when God wipes out whole cities, He is committing murder. However, nowhere in Scripture can we find where God killed “innocent” people. In fact, compared to God’s holiness, there is no such thing as an “innocent” person. All have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23a). God has “just cause” to wipe us all out; the fact that He doesn’t is proof of His mercy.

When God chose to destroy all mankind in the Flood, He was totally justified in doing so: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).

During the conquest of Canaan, God ordered the complete destruction of entire cities and nations: “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you” (Deuteronomy 20:16-17). And Joshua did what God had told him (Joshua 10:40).

Why did God give such a command? Israel was God’s instrument of judgment against the Canaanites, who were evil, almost beyond what we can imagine today: “Every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods” (Deuteronomy 12:31). Their utter annihilation was commanded to prevent Israel from following their ways: “Lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:18; also Deuteronomy 12:29-30).

Even in the dire judgments of the Old Testament, God offered mercy. For example, when God was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, God promised Abraham that He would spare the whole city in order to save ten righteous people there. Though God did destroy those cities (ten righteous people could not be found), He saved “righteous Lot” and his family (Genesis 18:32; Genesis 19:15; 2 Peter 2:7). Later, God destroyed Jericho, but He saved Rahab the harlot and her family in response to Rahab’s faith (Joshua 6:25; Hebrews 11:31). Until the final judgment, there is always mercy to be found.

Every person dies in God’s own time (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19). Jesus holds the keys of death (Revelation 1:18). Does the fact that everyone experiences physical death make God a “killer”? In the sense that He couldprevent all death, yes. He allows us to die. But He is no murderer. Death is part of the human experience because we brought it into the world ourselves (Romans 5:12). One day, as John Donne put it, “Death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.” God, in His grace, has conquered death for those who are in Christ, and one day that truth will be fully realized: “The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26).

God is faithful to His word. He will destroy the wicked, and He holds “the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” (2 Peter 2:9). But He has also promised that “the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23b).

Okay I read the above. I do have one question though. You say "However, nowhere in Scripture can we find where God killed “innocent” people."

What about all the unborn children and young children that were killed in the flood? What were their crimes? Ezekiel 18:20 tells us, “The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son.”
 
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Brother Billy

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It say John would be filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. That was the above content that a fetus is good enough for the Holy Spirit why not a soul?

The Original Poster Facinated by God changed his original posts a couple of times and contridicted himself. The post i made has to do with his original original post.He ORIGINALLY said the soul is imparted upon birth...then he said in third trimester....then second trimester ...then a soul chooses when it wants to be imparted....and it changed again.

John the Baptist was quite a special guy in the Bible. Just because God did something special for John, it doesn't mean he does the same thing for all human babies. This could have been a once off thing?
 
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Natsumi Lam

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The Israelites were supposed to clear their inheritance of all wickedness and idol worship. That is why God said let nothing live, Not even the animals, because that is how bad sin infiltrates areas.

The Old Testament records God killing multitudes of people, and some people want to believe this makes Him a murderer. The misconception that “killing” and “murder” are synonymous is partially based on the King James mistranslation of the sixth commandment, which reads, “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13). However, the word kill is a translation of the Hebrew word ratsach, which nearly always refers to intentional killing without cause. The correct rendering of this word is “murder,” and all modern translations render the command as “You shall not murder.” The Bible in Basic English best conveys its meaning: “Do not put anyone to death without cause.”

It is true that God has intentionally killed many people. (God never “accidentally” does anything.) In fact, the Bible records that He literally wiped out entire nations including women, children, cattle, etc. In addition to that, God killed every living creature upon the face of the earth with the exception of eight people and the animals on the ark (Genesis 7:21-23; 1 Peter 3:20). Does this make Him a murderer?

As already stated, to kill and to murder are different things. Murder is “the premeditated, unlawful taking of a life,” whereas killing is, more generally, “the taking of a life.” The same Law that forbids murder permits killing in self-defense (Exodus 22:2).

In order for God to commit murder, He would have to act “unlawfully.” We must recognize that God is God. “His works are perfect, and all His ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is He” (Deuteronomy 32:4; see also Psalm 11:7; 90:9). He created man and expects obedience (Exodus 20:4-6; Exodus 23:21; 2 John 1:6). When man takes it upon himself to disobey God, he faces God’s wrath (Exodus 19:5; Exodus 23:21-22; Leviticus 26:14-18). Furthermore, “God is a just judge, and God is angry with the wicked every day. If [man] does not turn back, He will sharpen His sword; He bends His bow and makes it ready” (Psalm 7:11-12).

Some would argue that executing the innocent is murder; thus, when God wipes out whole cities, He is committing murder. However, nowhere in Scripture can we find where God killed “innocent” people. In fact, compared to God’s holiness, there is no such thing as an “innocent” person. All have sinned (Romans 3:23), and the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23a). God has “just cause” to wipe us all out; the fact that He doesn’t is proof of His mercy.

When God chose to destroy all mankind in the Flood, He was totally justified in doing so: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).

During the conquest of Canaan, God ordered the complete destruction of entire cities and nations: “But of the cities of these peoples which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance, you shall let nothing that breathes remain alive, but you shall utterly destroy them: the Hittite and the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite, just as the LORD your God has commanded you” (Deuteronomy 20:16-17). And Joshua did what God had told him (Joshua 10:40).

Why did God give such a command? Israel was God’s instrument of judgment against the Canaanites, who were evil, almost beyond what we can imagine today: “Every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods” (Deuteronomy 12:31). Their utter annihilation was commanded to prevent Israel from following their ways: “Lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God” (Deuteronomy 20:18; also Deuteronomy 12:29-30).

Even in the dire judgments of the Old Testament, God offered mercy. For example, when God was about to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, God promised Abraham that He would spare the whole city in order to save ten righteous people there. Though God did destroy those cities (ten righteous people could not be found), He saved “righteous Lot” and his family (Genesis 18:32; Genesis 19:15; 2 Peter 2:7). Later, God destroyed Jericho, but He saved Rahab the harlot and her family in response to Rahab’s faith (Joshua 6:25; Hebrews 11:31). Until the final judgment, there is always mercy to be found.

Every person dies in God’s own time (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19). Jesus holds the keys of death (Revelation 1:18). Does the fact that everyone experiences physical death make God a “killer”? In the sense that He couldprevent all death, yes. He allows us to die. But He is no murderer. Death is part of the human experience because we brought it into the world ourselves (Romans 5:12). One day, as John Donne put it, “Death shall be no more; death, thou shalt die.” God, in His grace, has conquered death for those who are in Christ, and one day that truth will be fully realized: “The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death” (1 Corinthians 15:26).

God is faithful to His word. He will destroy the wicked, and He holds “the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” (2 Peter 2:9). But He has also promised that “the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23b).

Murder indicates that a being be under a law that classifies some killing as murder.

God is not under any law.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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John the Baptist was quite a special guy in the Bible. Just because God did something special for John, it doesn't mean he does the same thing for all human babies. This could have been a once off thing?

The bible doesnt say either way but we do know it can be done.
 
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redleghunter

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Murder indicates that a being be under a law that classifies some killing as murder.

God is not under any law.
I tried dusting up the historic “ex Lex” “sub lego” discussion but no one wanted to bite.
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Which then means that the verse you quoted in not relevant to this thread?

Again it is relevent to the ORIGINAL original post. It does not seem it matches because Facinated by God changed some of his posts.

He believed a soul was imparted at birth...i was providing an example of a fetus being good enough for the Holy Spirit but the original post stated the soul would not choose to be consider a fetus. Meaning a fetus is good enough for the Holy Spirit by why not good enough for a soul?
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Again it is relevent to the ORIGINAL original post. It does not seem it matches because Facinated by God changed some of his posts.

He believed a soul was imparted at birth...i was providing an example of a fetus being good enough for the Holy Spirit but the original post stated the soul would not choose to be consider a fetus. Meaning a fetus is good enough for the Holy Spirit by why not good enough for a soul?


I think i discovered the issue...this was for a Facinated by God on a similar post. Sorry :)
 
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Natsumi Lam

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Okay I was a bit confused :)

What do you think of my argument on the original post of this thread?

The bible doesnt say that it, abortion is murder...unless there is one that i dont know of.

I think the personally i could not have an abortion ...even though the biblle doesnt really address it because to me it would be murder in my heart. So i think it is a heart issue. If someone is open to the Holy Spirit and He convicts the person...just dont do it...i think that is sin if the person goes against the Spirit.
 
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The bible doesnt say that it, abortion is murder...unless there is one that i dont know of.

I think the personally i could not have an abortion ...even though the biblle doesnt really address it because to me it would be murder in my heart. So i think it is a heart issue. If someone is open to the Holy Spirit and He convicts the person...just dont do it...i think that is sin if the person goes against the Spirit.
I think the Biblical case against abortion is fairly straight forward.

Premise 1 - All humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.
Premise 2 - Humans come into existence and begin their 25 years of development at fertilization.
Conclusion - From fertilization, all human being possess inherent moral worth and value.

From the above, I think we can safely state that the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for convenience and non-life threatening issues are immoral.
 
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I think the Biblical case against abortion is fairly straight forward.

Premise 1 - All humans are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value.
Premise 2 - Humans come into existence and begin their 25 years of development at fertilization.
Conclusion - From fertilization, all human being possess inherent moral worth and value.

From the above, I think we can safely state that the 98.5% of abortions which are committed for convenience and non-life threatening issues are immoral.

I think the issue is that not all consider a fetus as human relating to premise 1.
 
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SPF

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I think the issue is that not all consider a fetus as human relating to premise 1.
That's why I specifically said "the Biblical case" I've never seen Christians debate Premise 1. Do you not think that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value?
 
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I think the issue is that not all consider a fetus as human relating to premise 1.
And I don't know of anyone that doesn't think a human fetus is a human being. The argument from pro-choice advocates is usually centered around a make believe definition of personhood and attempting to establish a difference between a human being and a human person.

But who says that a human fetus is not a human being? If it's not a human being what is it?
 
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Natsumi Lam

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That's why I specifically said "the Biblical case" I've never seen Christians debate Premise 1. Do you not think that all human beings are created in the image of God and possess inherent moral worth and value?

I think we are made body soul spirit like Him. So yes absolutely.
 
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And I don't know of anyone that doesn't think a human fetus is a human being. The argument from pro-choice advocates is usually centered around a make believe definition of personhood and attempting to establish a difference between a human being and a human person.

But who says that a human fetus is not a human being? If it's not a human being what is it?


I know of 1 CF member that doesnt think a fetus is human :(

I think it is human from conception.
 
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