Why do some Christians claim that the Bible is pro-life, when it is clearly not?

Brother Billy

Active Member
Sep 30, 2018
174
33
Sydney
✟4,448.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
There are three reasons why I think that the Bible is not pro-life:

1)The Bible never explicitly condemns abortion


Exodus and Leviticus have extensive lists of laws and regulations ranging from sacrifices to the Lord, diet…childbirth, children’s relationship with parents, women’s uncleanness, offerings to the Lord after childbirth, nakedness, clothing, sexual relations, adultery, rape, marriage, slavery…etc. If God really thought that abortion was such a grave sin, why did he not also add abortion to this list? Just think of the number of abortions that might have been prevented if God made this clear to humanity?

2)God provides a test for unfaithfulness that, if positive, will abort her baby if she is pregnant

Numbers 5:11-29 describes what is known as the "Ordeal of Bitter Water". If a man suspects that his wife has been unfaithful, then she will be given a potion of "bitter water" to drink. If she is innocent, then she will not be harmed. However if she is guilty, then "her belly will swell and her thigh will rot". "Thigh" is a euphemism for uterus. If she had been unfaithful, then she might also be pregnant. In fact, her falling pregnant might have lead her husband to believe that she had been unfaithful, especially if they had infrequent or no sex recently. This "test" would therefore abort her fetus if it belonged to another man.

Note that the effectiveness of the Ordeal or the method by which it works (i.e. by oath/curse or an by abortifacient) is not relevant here. What is relevant here is the objective of this "test" and its consequences for her fetus (if she is pregnant). If God was against abortion, why would he devise such a "test"?

3)The Mosaic Laws (from God), don't consider a fetus to be a person

Exodus 21:22-25 (NRSV) says:
22 When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. 23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

This passage therefore prescribes death for someone who accidentally kills a pregnant mother, however if only her fetus is accidentally killed (while she is unharmed), then the perpetrator only gets a fine. This implies that the life of a fetus is worth less than it's mother. If both were considered people, then the penalty should be death in both cases, but this is not the case. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Therefore abortion cannot be murder (in terms of the Mosaic Laws).

The above interpretation/translation is consistent with the consensus held by Jewish scholars since the time of Moses. Most English versions of the Bible agree with this, including the NRSV, NIV (see footnote), RSV, AMPC, CEB, CJB, CEV, DRA, EXB, GNT, JUB, TLB, MSG, NABRE, NLV, NRSVA, NRSVACE, NRSVCE, RSVCE and WYC.

However apologists dispute the interpretation/translation of verse 22 above. Instead of miscarriage, they claim verse 22 should be translated as: “If men fight with each other and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely and the baby lives, yet there is no further injury, the one who hurt her must be punished with a fine paid to the woman’s husband, as much as the judges decide". This in turn, they claim, shows that the penalty for killing either the woman or her unborn baby is death and so the Bible places the same value on the life of the woman and her unborn baby, and so abortion is murder. My response to this is:
  • I find it bizarre that apologists would reject the consensus view of the ancient Hebrew scholars who were in the best position to understand the language and cultural context of the text that Exodus 21:22 was originally written in.
  • Also if the injury causes a miscarriage of a fetus that is only a few weeks old, the only visible consequence is likely to be a bloody discharge. If there is no visible body, how then is " life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." to be applied? It doesn't make sense.
  • A blunt blow severe enough to induce premature labor would also have a high chance of causing severe injuries to the fetus. Also the lungs of a fetus for most of the pregnancy are usually insufficiently developed to allow it to survive outside the womb. In the days before modern medical science, virtually all premature births under these circumstances would result in the death of the fetus. Why make an outcome, which is very unlikely to occur, the main subject of a law? Usually it is the most likely outcome that is the main subject of a law - any unlikely outcomes are either mentioned afterwards or ignored.
  • The following link provides a rigorous analysis of the Hebrew text that this passage was written in: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7753/f08b4403fde53865cb58a30812f0be3b318d.pdf This paper concludes that the initial interpretation/translation stated in the NRSV above is correct.
________________________
Please note the following:
- I'm not claiming that the Bible says the fetus is unimportant, only that it was worth less than a person
- I am NOT advocating that abortion should be allowed. In fact, my own personal opinion is that human life begins at conception, human life is precious and it should be protected. Abortion should only be allowed where the mother's life is in danger.
 
Last edited:

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,502
9,009
Florida
✟324,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
There are three reasons why I think that the Bible is not pro-life:

1)The Bible never explicitly condemns abortion


The Jews were very meticulous in the keeping of the laws. Exodus and Leviticus have extensive lists of laws and regulations ranging from sacrifices to the Lord, diet…childbirth, children’s relationship with parents, women’s uncleanness, offerings to the Lord after childbirth, nakedness, clothing, sexual relations, adultery, rape, marriage, slavery…Isn’t it odd that they forgot to add laws banning abortion since it is regarded by Christians as a grave sin? Why would they omit something as serious as abortion?

2)God provides a test for unfaithfulness that, if positive, will abort any baby

In Numbers 5:11-29 god essentially says "If you think your wife has cheated on you, give her some toxic potion, and if the fetus inside of her dies, then it shows that she cheated on you. But if it doesn’t die, and if she survives the toxic potion, then it is your kid. "

If God valued unborn children, why would he devise such a test?

3)The Mosaic Laws (from God), doesn't consider a fetus to be a person

Exodus 21: 22-25 prescribes death for someone who accidentally kills a pregnant mother, however if only her fetus is accidentally killed (while she is unharmed), then the perpetrator only gets a fine. This implies that the life of a fetus is worth less than it's mother. If both we considered people, then the penalty should be death in both cases, but this is not the case. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Therefore abortion cannot be murder (in terms of the Mosaic Laws).

Note that I'm not claiming that the Bible says the fetus is unimportant, only that it was worth less than a person

From the Didache:

And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.
 
Upvote 0

Invalidusername

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2018
1,373
662
Battle Creek
✟70,201.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Why would I want to see something so disgusting?

Why is it disgusting if it's just a fetus bro? It's not like they take out a bunch of metals that roughly resembles kitchen utensils and then shove it up into the fetus and scramble it up. It's not like the baby attempts to draw back from the tools and show clear indications of pain and terror.

Oh wait that's exactly what happens.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
There are three reasons why I think that the Bible is not pro-life:

1)The Bible never explicitly condemns abortion


The Jews were very meticulous in the keeping of the laws. Exodus and Leviticus have extensive lists of laws and regulations ranging from sacrifices to the Lord, diet…childbirth, children’s relationship with parents, women’s uncleanness, offerings to the Lord after childbirth, nakedness, clothing, sexual relations, adultery, rape, marriage, slavery…Isn’t it odd that they forgot to add laws banning abortion since it is regarded by Christians as a grave sin? Why would they omit something as serious as abortion?

2)God provides a test for unfaithfulness that, if positive, will abort any baby

In Numbers 5:11-29 god essentially says "If you think your wife has cheated on you, give her some toxic potion, and if the fetus inside of her dies, then it shows that she cheated on you. But if it doesn’t die, and if she survives the toxic potion, then it is your kid. "

If God valued unborn children, why would he devise such a test?

3)The Mosaic Laws (from God), doesn't consider a fetus to be a person

Exodus 21: 22-25 prescribes death for someone who accidentally kills a pregnant mother, however if only her fetus is accidentally killed (while she is unharmed), then the perpetrator only gets a fine. This implies that the life of a fetus is worth less than it's mother. If both we considered people, then the penalty should be death in both cases, but this is not the case. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Therefore abortion cannot be murder (in terms of the Mosaic Laws).

Note that I'm not claiming that the Bible says the fetus is unimportant, only that it was worth less than a person

The Bible certainly does ban child sacrifice and offering children to Molech served the same societal role of getting rid of unwanted children as abortion does today. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines, he became a worshiper of Molech, and sadly it is not difficult to read between the lines.

If someone gets chemotherapy in order to save their life and the result is that they miscarry, then that is not the goal, but rather that is a sad byproduct. Likewise, in Numbers 5:11-29, the miscarriage is the result of her sin, not the goal, and she was not given a toxic potion.

In Exodus 21:22-25 the fact that there is a fine for causing a miscarriage undermines your argument.
 
Upvote 0

Brother Billy

Active Member
Sep 30, 2018
174
33
Sydney
✟4,448.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
Why is it disgusting if it's just a fetus bro? It's not like they take out a bunch of metals that roughly resembles kitchen utensils and then shove it up into the fetus and scramble it up. It's not like the baby attempts to draw back from the tools and show clear indications of pain and terror.

Oh wait that's exactly what happens.

Why are you implicitly accusing me of being a abortion supporter? I'm pro-life
 
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,724
✟188,987.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
In Numbers 5:11-29 god essentially says "If you think your wife has cheated on you, give her some toxic potion, and if the fetus inside of her dies, then it shows that she cheated on you.

No...it says nothing about a toxic potion. It's just holy water with some dust from the tabernacle floor. I haven't read anything to suggest that they laced the floors with abortifacients. If the baby died, then it was an act of God. A similar thing resulted from David's relationship with Bathsheba. God killed the baby, but God killing a baby does not equate to condoning people killing babies, either. This part of your argument really needs to be thrown out.
 
Upvote 0

Brother Billy

Active Member
Sep 30, 2018
174
33
Sydney
✟4,448.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
From the Didache:

And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. According to the Mosaic Laws, a fetus doesnt have the same rights as a person. Therefore abortion cannot be murder (in terms of the Mosaic Laws). I don't think you read more than the title of my post
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brother Billy

Active Member
Sep 30, 2018
174
33
Sydney
✟4,448.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
No...it says nothing about a toxic potion. It's just holy water with some dust from the tabernacle floor. I haven't read anything to suggest that they laced the floors with abortifacients. If the baby died, then it was an act of God. A similar thing resulted from David's relationship with Bathsheba. God killed the baby, but God killing a baby does not equate to condoning people killing babies, either. This part of your argument really needs to be thrown out.

You missed the whole point. It doesn't matter if the potion was distilled water or if it was mixed with cyanide. What is important is how this law was interpreted by the Hebrews at the time. From their perspective, the law is saying that "If you think your wife has cheated on you, give her this potion, and if the fetus inside of her dies, then it shows that she cheated on you. But if it doesn’t die, and if she survives the toxic potion, then it is your kid". If God wanted to make it clear to his followers that a fetus should be treated as a person, why would he devise a law which might lead them to think otherwise?

This law is implying that the husbands right to know if his wife has been unfaithful, is more important than the life of the fetus.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,502
9,009
Florida
✟324,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. Therefore abortion cannot be murder (in terms of the Mosaic Laws). I don't think you read more than the title of my post

I not only read your entire post, but I've also read those parts of the bible you've quoted as well as the same arguments before. You are inserting your own beliefs into Christianity and asking questions that have been answered by those in authority long ago. Now, don't take that as too harsh a criticism, because there are people who do the same thing every day.

In this case, abortion is viewed as murder by Christianity and there is no need to revisit the matter.
 
Upvote 0

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
15,274
5,903
✟299,620.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Why would I want to see something so disgusting?

The Old Testament should not have been part of the Bible.

Those who put the Bible canon are in grave error and ignored the warnings of The Christ, concerning the evil religion and the false/evil god of the Pharisees whose core theology is the Torah and found in the OT (where many of your quoted verses came from).

They also ignored the warnings of the Christ against false prophets, false apostles, and the signs that will reveal them.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,634
18,533
Orlando, Florida
✟1,260,043.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Politics
US-Democrat
Not all Christians agree about the ethics of abortion, though many see it as immoral in all cases, at least officially.

In my denomination, people are expected to use their own minds to come to their own conclusions based on the circumstances in which they encounter other people and their needs. The Church's voice is only persuasive in this matter, not a coercive authority.

Pr. Ed Knudson, a pastor and theologian in our denomination, explains this particular approach to Christian ethics, in the specific context of abortion but also explaining the wider issue of personal moral agency:

http://religiondispatches.org/on-religion-abortion-and-politics-dr-george-tillers-christian-ethics/
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,322.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The Old Testament should not have been part of the Bible.

Those who put the Bible canon are in grave error and ignored the warnings of The Christ, concerning the evil religion and the false/evil god of the Pharisees whose core theology is the Torah and found in the OT (where many of your quoted verses came from).

They also ignored the warnings of the Christ against false prophets, false apostles, and the signs that will reveal them.

In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything Paul said against OT Scriptures to see if what he said was true. About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT and the NT authors did this thousands of times to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it either to the right or to the left. So I find you assertion that the OT should not have been part of the Bible to be completely absurd.

In Matthew 15:2-3, Jesus was asked why his disciples broke the traditions of the elders and he responded by asking them why they broke the command of God for the sake of their tradition. He went on to say that for the sake of their tradition they made void the Word of God (Matthew 15:6), that they worshiped God in vain because they taught as doctrines the commands of men (Matthew 15:8-9), and that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions (Mark 7:6-13), so Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not following the Torah and for teaching their own traditions in place of it. As such, you should be careful not to mistake a criticism of the Pharisees as being a criticism of the Torah.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Brother Billy

Active Member
Sep 30, 2018
174
33
Sydney
✟4,448.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
Private
I not only read your entire post, but I've also read those parts of the bible you've quoted as well as the same arguments before. You are inserting your own beliefs into Christianity and asking questions that have been answered by those in authority long ago. Now, don't take that as too harsh a criticism, because there are people who do the same thing every day.

In this case, abortion is viewed as murder by Christianity and there is no need to revisit the matter.

(1) is a fact. Nowhere in the Bible is abortion explicitly condemned
(2) is a test for unfaithfulness devised by God himself, which purports to kill an unborn fetus if its mother was unfaithful. Why would a god who valued unborn children devise such a law?
(3) is a logical deduction from Exodus 21: 22-25. This view is consistent with the views of the ancient Hebrew scholars who knew the language and cultural context of the original texts better than anyone else. They always maintained that life begins at birth and not an conception.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Site Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,817
73
92040
✟1,096,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God knew us before we were conceived.
and
God said that, he knew us while in the womb.

He (He) would not wish for us to be torn from the womb. Killed before even entering the world. The thought of it is disgusting.

M-Bob
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmanbob

Goat Whisperer
Site Supporter
Sep 6, 2016
15,961
10,817
73
92040
✟1,096,353.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Abortion is a sin. It is no.greater a sin than lying.

The study of the different degrees of sin can be an interesting one but, I believe abortion is special sin since not to murder is one of the Ten Commandments.
M-Bob
 
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,502
9,009
Florida
✟324,863.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
(1) is a fact. Nowhere in the Bible is abortion mentioned.
(2) is a test for unfaithfulness devised by God himself, which purports to kill an unborn fetus if its mother was unfaithful. Why would a god who valued unborn children devise such a law?
(3) is a logical deduction from Exodus 21: 22-25. This view is consistent with the views of the ancient Hebrew scholars who knew the language and cultural context of the original texts better than anyone else. They always maintained that life begins at birth and not an conception.

Well. We've reached an impasse. According to you, and mentioning "the ancient Hebrew scholars", abortion is not murder.

According to the Church, and its ancient Hebrew founders, abortion is murder. I am a Christian, so I'm going to rely on the Christian authorities.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Kaon

Well-Known Member
Mar 12, 2018
5,676
2,349
Los Angeles
✟111,507.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Celibate
No...it says nothing about a toxic potion. It's just holy water with some dust from the tabernacle floor. I haven't read anything to suggest that they laced the floors with abortifacients. If the baby died, then it was an act of God. A similar thing resulted from David's relationship with Bathsheba. God killed the baby, but God killing a baby does not equate to condoning people killing babies, either. This part of your argument really needs to be thrown out.

It was something that affected women with a child - to expose conception product via adultery.

Since men didn't [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in a condom, and had bare sex (same as today, despite having prophylaxis) adultery could be tested by giving the woman something that would make her sick if she was pregnant; a woman without child wouldn't react.

It doesn't necessarily say, nor imply that the Most High God let the priests murder babies; they simply exposed a couple's fornications.
 
Upvote 0