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Ygrene Imref

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I dunno. That sounds spiritually inept. But in either case, if ineptitude was not a good reason to put them in charge, are "conniving" or "carnal" attributes something to consider? Maybe God didn't know they were like that?

This will be my last time softly "advertising" non-canonical work, but the book of Enoch, and the book of Archons and Principalities make it clear ALL parties - Azazel/serpent, Adam, Eve knew exactly what was expected of them. When Enoch was "caught up," he admonished Adam for his "dishonor" to the human race.

Adam and Eve were spiritually mature. The fact that they knew how to be conniving after :eating"/learning from the "tree" let's us know this is a consequence of 1) disobesience, and 2) the dualistic knowledge of good and evil - and how to use either for personal gain.

So, if you want to look where to put blame, it would be with our Patriarch/Matriarch.
 
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JD16

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Forgiveness doesn't get your godly, perfected body back. It keeps yu from being condemned.

The fall is an incredibly lacking story in the colloquial social sharing. It wasn't just an "oops" moment. Adam and Eve changed on a fundamental, and spiritual way.

Adam did have the knowledge. He communed with God, and other hosts.

They were not "babes," or "stupid" like the pedestrian Christian narrative suggests (or downright states.)

This is your version on it, among others,.....but that would still created problems in the story

Why would God put a spiritually or physically inept, and intellectually immature entity in charge of an entire planet, it's life, and the maintenance thereof?

Why would God do that? Good question, ....but if he created a walking talking snake with a genius level IQ,.....hey why not?

He wouldnt; Adam and Eve knew exactly what they were doing. The apocryphal library, and the canonical text affirm this. Otherwise, Adam wouldn't have tried to shift the blame on his wife - a very CARNAL, HUMAN thing to do - which also requires the intelligence to be conniving.

Yea, he tried to shift the blame,....but that is after consuming the fruit, so he knew it then...

The "tree of knowledge of good and evil" was not where they got their knowledge. It is where they became dichotomies of creation - subject to binary/duality as opposed to the UNITY they had with God. They were already gods; they allowed their ego (i.e. pride) to corrupt them - the same thing that corrupted the hosts.

And I would be lying if I said that made any sense at all to me....

And, then after all of that, they decided to have kids in their fallen, dualistic, corrupt image. If you want to ble someone, blame your Matriarch and Patriarch.

Ha, I don't want to or need to blame anyone, to me is just a story that make no sense and has a massive gaping plot .....just trying to make sense of this....which I'm starting to think its Mission Impossible....
 
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Ygrene Imref

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This is your version on it, among others,.....but that would still created problems in the story

Actually, it is partly canon,and certainly in the books taken out of the canon deemed "uninspired."

It doesn't create any problems, because Adam and Eve were responsible for their actions even before "eating" the fruit. And, if they really had questions on the avatar serpent''s reasoning, they should have asked God - who was literally walking on earth with them.



Why would God do that? Good question, ....but if he created a walking talking snake with a genius level IQ,.....hey why not?

He wouldnt, which is why it is nonsense that He would give dominion to "babes," or "stupid" persons. Unfortunately, Genesis is outlined like a gnostic text; for example, the talking snake wasn't a metaphor: it was the avatar of a specific angel who led an assault on the genetics of the human race (Gen 6) to prevent the failsafe plan of salvation for humans already in place. You don't think God tells His hosts His entire plans, do you?

The apocryphal is very clear on these questions.



[Quotw]Yea, he tried to shift the blame,....but that is after consuming the fruit, so he knew it then...[/quote]

No, he knew it before. Again, you have to extrapolate the same conclusion from the canon the apocryphal makes clear. This wasn't a single incident issue - and it wasn't an event planned entirely on earth. Adam had and Eve had knowledge of the gods - they may have been baby gods, but they weren't stupid, ignorant or ambivalent. They knew what they were doing was wrong; Eve even recited the word of God back to the avatar serpent, and she believed the lie that she would be a goddess - a lie that mentally clouded her understanding that she was already a goddess.

Before she presented it to Adam, Adam had not sinned. But, in his emotional state (an exploitation - as Eve was already destined to fall from sin - he allowed himself to fall also, because otherwise his wife would be alone.

The event is much deeper than 3 chapters in Genesis. Much deeper.



[Quote ]And I would be lying if I said that made any sense at all to me....[/quote]

Well, then this is a problem, you see. This is what Adam aND Eve chose to be ignorant of - and they fell. The entity that beguiled our Patriarch and Matriarch was subjected to the same appeals to the ego, causing to fall.

If it worked with "adult" spirtual magistrates, why wouldn't it work on spiritual newborns? Indeed, this same appeal to the ego is a popular trick used today.

In terms of the "tree" - which is an almost direct gnostic term used for an ENTITY (recall what the blind man said he saw when Christ healed his eyes). Adam and eve didn't gain any knowledge - as they were already gods. They gained a perspective on how to exploit duality. Good and evil. Right and wrong. Up and down. Left and right. Democrat or republican. Rock or country.

Humans have woven this duality (disunity) into their entire existence - making it a pinnacle for decision making and life motility. That cane directly from Adam and Eve abdicating their godliness and unity with God in exchange for CARNALITY, and duality (disunity.)



Ha, I don't want to or need to blame anyone, to me is just a story that make no sense and has a massive gaping plot .....just trying to make sense of this....which I'm starting to think its Mission Impossible....
[/QUOTE]

YOU BET YOUR HIDE THE CANON HAS GAPING PLOT HOLES.

However, the canon is more than enough to make a spiritual progression in life - although ALL is good for consideration and betterment in discerning the spirit of any information.

God Himself says that things won't make sense within the faith itself. There would be antichrists, ministers who are wolves in sheep's clothing, lies and deceit, and doctrine of demons. So, it should be no surprise to you if the "official story" doesn't quite make sense. In fact, it should springboard you toward finding the real truth in spirit.

It is a mission impossible because religion is a powerful tool of control. But, "Christianity," as it were, is not a religion: it is a relationship.

For example, the minimum amount of people needed to make "church" is two people - not an edifice, stadium or TV show. We are responsible for our own spiritual trajectory, so it will not suffice to say, "but I didn't know because the fake believers misled me." It is a good point, but at the end of the day you are responsible for yur own soul.

Christ provided a way out it of which it seems even the angels were unaware. This "salvation plan" - revealed to Adam, Eve, Avatar snake/Azazel, and the rest of the "trees" in Genesis 3:13 - was a trump card in our favor. It basically negated everything those entities who abdicated their Universal status in exchange for an assault on this creation.

Now, you have a bunch of fallen entities [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed that nothing they did will ultimately do anything - unless they can get us to believe we are nothing, and we need nothing from anyone (least of all, our Creator, who is also their creator.)

If you care, you may want to start with Enoch
It is canon in Eastern Orthodox. But, everything needed is in the canon - but that requires a knowledge of etymology, languages (Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit, etc.,) and other resources containing overlapping information for comparison. The stories of the Bible are regionally repetitive because this wasn't a joke back then.

Most importantly, you would have to care about wanting to know any of this in further detail.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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They would have been alive in their sinful bodies. Who wants that? This mortal body is full of sin and illness. Our immortal bodies will be perfect.

An omnipotent god could have created us with perfect bodies, and minds that would not ever be inclined to sin, while retaining free will at the same time.

Why didn't this happen?
 
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Galatea

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An omnipotent god could have created us with perfect bodies, and minds that would not ever be inclined to sin, while retaining free will at the same time.

Why didn't this happen?
I believe Adam and Eve did have perfect bodies and innocent minds, it is free will which lead to sinning. Free will leads to disobedience. If there were no free will, there would have been no disobedience.

Why did God give us free will? It pleased Him to do so. He is the Creator, after all. I think it is because He wanted people to choose to love Him, and not automata programmed to love Him.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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I believe Adam and Eve did have perfect bodies and innocent minds, it is free will which lead to sinning. Free will leads to disobedience. If there were no free will, there would have been no disobedience.

Why did God give us free will? It pleased Him to do so. He is the Creator, after all. I think it is because He wanted people to choose to love Him, and not automata programmed to love Him.

I have free will, and I wouldn't have been inclined to disobey God, so it isn't a given that free will always leads to disobedience.

Why didn't your god create Adam and Eve with free will, but without the propensity to disobey?
 
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CrystalDragon

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He sinned against God. That is wrong, he knew what he was doing. Willful disobedience. The motive for Adam's sin was not the motive for Eve's sin. Eve was lustful, Adam loved Eve more than obeying God. That is what I meant.


You say "willfull disobedience" is a bad thing? What if God commanded you to do something like in the Old Testament? Wouldn't it be best to disobey so no one would end up hurt or dead?
 
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possibletarian

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Why did God give us free will? It pleased Him to do so. He is the Creator, after all. I think it is because He wanted people to choose to love Him, and not automata programmed to love Him.

Hi Galatea,
I think most people understand that thinking, but only makes sense if you already believe scripture. and then depending on your strength of belief in the in-errancy of the scripture you can simply come up with ''God's way is not our way'' and ''He is the creator, so anything is possible'', what concerns me about that is anything can be true to a believer (of almost any religion) without regard to thinking if it makes any sense or not to someone looking afresh at the idea.

To me, to grant free will (and I'm not convinced that it really exists) knowing that if just one person exercises that free will will lead to untold suffering for millions as a result of the practice of it does not make any sense. It's not the free will that does not make sense, but the consequences.

And if God wants us to choose to love him, why are we so often told that belief only comes as a gift from God, and then in Corinthians 5:14 we are told that the belief then compels (N.I.V.), Controls (N.L.T & E.S.V), constraineth us (K.J.V.). How does this fit in with a free will ?

By the way, and this is just casual interest why do you believe Adam & Eve were created perfect ? And where did the serpent come from, wouldn't that suggest that creation had already fallen or at least some of God's created creatures had already decided to go their own way, it would have been far better knowing that man was about to be deceived by a clever talking snake, to have removed it.?

Many thanks
P
 
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Galatea

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You say "willfull disobedience" is a bad thing? What if God commanded you to do something like in the Old Testament? Wouldn't it be best to disobey so no one would end up hurt or dead?
No, it would not be a good thing to disobey God. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac. He would have, too. He knew God could and would raise Isaac from the dead. You see, God promised Abraham that He would bless him through Isaac, and God is not slack. Abraham obeyed God, but God is merciful and the Bible says Abraham told Isaac "God will provide himself a lamb" I like that, God will provide HIMSELF, it can be read both ways you see.
 
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CrystalDragon

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No, it would not be a good thing to disobey God. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac. He would have, too. He knew God could and would raise Isaac from the dead. You see, God promised Abraham that He would bless him through Isaac, and God is not slack. Abraham obeyed God, but God is merciful and the Bible says Abraham told Isaac "God will provide himself a lamb" I like that, God will provide HIMSELF, it can be read both ways you see.

I meant more along the lines of the "kill everyone but keep the virgins for yourselves" kind of thing. That has nothing to do with some sort of sacrifice foreshadowing Jesus, that's straight up malicious murder and assault.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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No, it would not be a good thing to disobey God. Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac. He would have, too. He knew God could and would raise Isaac from the dead. You see, God promised Abraham that He would bless him through Isaac, and God is not slack. Abraham obeyed God, but God is merciful and the Bible says Abraham told Isaac "God will provide himself a lamb" I like that, God will provide HIMSELF, it can be read both ways you see.

So Abraham didn't have the propensity to disobey God in this situation.

Why didn't your god create Adam and Eve with free will, but without the propensity to disobey?
 
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JD16

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I'm still confused. Are you saying banning someone means one is trolling? Seems like your grasping at straws really. Banning someone for trolling is not trolling.

Your original statement was

I'd ban anyone who wasn't christian that was trolling.

And TagliatelliMonster replied

So, trolling is ok if the troll is a christian?

Meaning why ban only the non Christian for trolling? Is it ok in your opinion for Christians to troll but not for non Christians...
 
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Lax

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It seems like often when doubters/agnostics/atheists present questions or problems to Christians, some get hostile. They say that they're trying to spread deceit, that they aren't true Christians, that doubting is dangerous, that they'll go to hell, etc.

Why do many seem so afraid to question their faith and threaten or guilt-trip those who do? The truth doesn't hide from questioning. If Christians are so confident of the Truth, why do they rebuke others for honestly questioning?

1. Different personality types among individual members.
2. Different knowledge level and debate strength among individual members.

All groups will have a certain amount of variety in the reactions of their individual members. Be it Christians, Jews, Muslims, Communists, Ku Klux Klan, Black Lives Matters, etc. Overall, some groups are more hostile than others because different beliefs have various levels of dysfunction when carried out in the real world.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I understand that they were told not to, but before eating the fruit they didn't know it was wrong to disobey God.
Did anyone find or show this from SCRIPTURE ?
Even little children "know" when they do something wrong, as long as they have a 'normal' conscience - even if they were not raised correctly.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Why did God curse the serpent when He knew that it was actually Satan who had led Adam and Eve into sin? The fate of the serpent is an illustration.
Actually, though rarely seen (studies/ examples of)
the serpent itself may have been an illustration - like a parable - as the word, apparently, could refer to and mean "angel of light" (which also can refer to and can mean the devil) which is also known to deceive people throughout history and today (according to GOD'S WORD).
I do not remember the details well enough to exagerate (sic) :) , but perhaps someone could find the pertinent information/ webpage/ study or commentary again. (it has been so many years ago... and I have not seen it since then)
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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Meaning why ban only the non Christian for trolling? Is it ok in your opinion for Christians to troll but not for non Christians...
Ah ok I understand now. I wouldn't allow trolling christians either. I realize there are trolls on both sides. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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God CAN forgive just because He wants to. He is not constrained by some cosmic scales of justice.

And God is not incapable of being in the presence of sin. Satan came before God as described in Job. Christ IS God and spent His life in the presence of sinners.

If you want a "story" that makes sense, go back to the early Church Fathers.

Or if you just want to keep on mocking Christianity as it's become rather imbalanced in the West, and created these contradictions, go right ahead. But it's a rather pointless game, on the order of attacking a strawman.


A priest I know likes to tell atheists, "tell me about this God you don't believe in. Because I probably don't believe in him either."
 
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possibletarian

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God CAN forgive just because He wants to. He is not constrained by some cosmic scales of justice.

And God is not incapable of being in the presence of sin. Satan came before God as described in Job. Christ IS God and spent His life in the presence of sinners.

I would tend to agree, it never made sense to me that a God would be constrained by some default sin arrangement, neither did I ever understand why a God would even be remotely interested in animal sacrifices.

And of course a God would be able to be in the presence of sin, look at it even, how else would would a God be able to understand the pain and suffering of those crying out to him. It would be like making a God only partially involved in any creation and its consequences.

P
 
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