Why do SDA preach

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
Because it does not change the application or context. You seem to be really concerned about my postings. Do you have something specific you would like to address?

I am addressing something specific. The new moon element of the text. But also how we need to understand each other's arguments.

You are talking about the text, so your postings seem a good place to start. I have now expanded that to Ice as well.

And of course I discussed it at length with Bob Ryan in the other thread.

It does change the application. If you say we do now everything we do in the new earth, and they are assembling on the new moon, then that relates to application.

You make the new moon relate only to months, and not a specific assembly, but you do not do the same with the week, and the Sabbath.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
Let's look at the context. I am open to differing ideas. If it is saying something other than the new earth, so be it.

And I know you are open as well. While some here have said they can't change their mind, we have both done so at times in these forums and otherwise.

Isa 66:15 “For behold, the LORD will come in fire, and his chariots like the whirlwind, to render his anger in fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16 For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many.

This discusses a time of judgment against all flesh.

Isa 66:17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.
Isa 66:18 “For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory,

This judgment involves gathering all nations

Isa 66:19 and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD.

Jerusalem is mentioned, which places it either at the location of current Jerusalem, or the new Jerusalem from above. Note the themes of carrying back Israelite brothers from captivity.

There is also reference to grain offerings, etc. This is why I think the initial point of these promises was a time of covenant blessings after the restoration from captivity.

Isa 66:21 And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.

In the new covenant all are priests, and the levitical tribe is not the focus. Again this seems to point to old covenant language, in a restoration after judgment on the nations.

Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

Now it states as the new heavens and new earth remain, so shall your offspring remain. This seems to at least put it in the time period of a new heaven and new earth. The question is whether this is talking about the same new heaven and new earth as John and Peter.

Given the earlier reference to assembly at His holy mountain, it sounds like this would be on earth.

Isa 66:24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Whether you take this of an earlier judgment when God judged the nations, or at the final judgment, both seem to point to the bodies being on the earth, rather than in heaven, etc.

There are other texts where Isaiah speaks of the new earth, etc. and those have similar elements which seem to point to a possible time of covenant blessing. But I think these are ultimately fulfilled in a different way through the new covenant due to disobedience.

so where along the line, i got the idea that Christ will rule in Jerusalem on the Earth for 1000 years and then the New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven and a New covenant with Heaven & Earth will be established. I think you may be still view this through replacement theology. Which I no longer accept.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 27, 2021

icedragon101 said:
so where along the line, i got the idea that Christ will rule in Jerusalem on the Earth for 1000 years and then the New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven and a New covenant with Heaven & Earth will be established. I think you may be still view this through replacement theology. Which I no longer accept.

i guess that is out of revelation

SabbathBlessings · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
I am addressing something specific. The new moon element of the text. But also how we need to understand each other's arguments.

You are talking about the text, so your postings seem a good place to start. I have now expanded that to Ice as well.

And of course I discussed it at length with Bob Ryan in the other thread.

It does change the application. If you say we do now everything we do in the new earth, and they are assembling on the new moon, then that relates to application.

You make the new moon relate only to months, and not a specific assembly, but you do not do the same with the week, and the Sabbath.

It seems pretty straight forward to me. From month to month (one New Moon to another) and week to week (one Sabbath to another) all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.

I can use this in today's application I go to church on Sabbath from month to month and from one Sabbath to another.

Isaiah 66:23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord.

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
Because a new moon means month

A new moon in the context of assembly does not just mean month. They would have a burnt offering on the new moon:

Num 28:11 “At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 28:12 also three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull, and two tenths of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
Num 28:13 and a tenth of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering for every lamb; for a burnt offering with a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.
Num 28:14 Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull, a third of a hin for a ram, and a quarter of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year.
Num 28:15 Also one male goat for a sin offering to the LORD; it shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

Indications of assembly, and grouping with the Sabbath:

2Ki 4:22 Then she called to her husband and said, “Send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may quickly go to the man of God and come back again.”
2Ki 4:23 And he said, “Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath.” She said, “All is well.”

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

Eze_46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Amo_8:5 saying, “When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great and deal deceitfully with false balances,

Major1 · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
If you won't listen to what people are saying, you are ruling out conversation,.

He is not saying today in an eternal state. He is saying he thinks that we will assemble to worship on the Sabbath, but not today, only in the future, in eternity.

Here again, he does not say TODAY in an eternal state. But rather he says not about today, but about eternity.

IE. he seems to see some sort of dispensational element at play in which what we are now doing is different than what we will be doing.

I agree. And what "He" is seeing is directed at the Jews who were the focus of the Law and the Old Test.

A day in the future when Israel is saved, THEN in the eternal state they will come together on what will no doubt be a Sabbath.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
A new moon in the context of assembly does not just mean month. They would have a burnt offering on the new moon:

Num 28:11 “At the beginnings of your months, you shall offer a burnt offering to the LORD: two bulls from the herd, one ram, seven male lambs a year old without blemish;
Num 28:12 also three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for each bull, and two tenths of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with oil, for the one ram;
Num 28:13 and a tenth of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering for every lamb; for a burnt offering with a pleasing aroma, a food offering to the LORD.
Num 28:14 Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull, a third of a hin for a ram, and a quarter of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year.
Num 28:15 Also one male goat for a sin offering to the LORD; it shall be offered besides the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

Indications of assembly, and grouping with the Sabbath:

2Ki 4:22 Then she called to her husband and said, “Send me one of the servants and one of the donkeys, that I may quickly go to the man of God and come back again.”
2Ki 4:23 And he said, “Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath.” She said, “All is well.”

Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.

Eze_46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Amo_8:5 saying, “When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great and deal deceitfully with false balances,

Isaiah 66:23 is not about burnt offerings.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 27, 2021

I need to get to work, its been nice chatting. Have a blessed day all!

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

icedragon101 said:
so where along the line, i got the idea that Christ will rule in Jerusalem on the Earth for 1000 years and then the New Jerusalem will come down out of Heaven and a New covenant with Heaven & Earth will be established. I think you may be still view this through replacement theology. Which I no longer accept.

Well, let's take the 1k reign possibility. It would resolve some things. For instance in Isaiah's new earth people will still die:

Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.
Isa 65:19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.
Isa 65:20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.
Isa 65:24 Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

Earlier during the time of judgment on the nations at the time of Israel's exile He spoke of the shaking of the heavens and the earth. Now He speaks of the new heaven and new earth. But it differs from John and Peter's version. For instance, there are still sinners. There is still death, but the whole thing is characterized by extreme fulfillments of the covenant blessings (wild animals not destroying, abundant crops, no one taking the crops, no one destrying, long life, etc.)

It is possible this was a possible fulfillment if they were faithful. Or, as you raise the possibility, and I think that is an interesting discussion, it could be seen as a description of the 1k years.

However, per John the new heavens and new earth follow the 1k years, rather than people being present in them for the 1k years. Chapter 20 discusses the 1k years. Then after that and the white throne judgment we see:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
Isaiah 66:23 is not about burnt offerings.

It is about assembly, which the other texts describe.

And those burnt offerings are for all the appointed times. The New Moon is included.

Note this shorter summary statement:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
Well, let's take the 1k reign possibility. It would resolve some things. For instance in Isaiah's new earth people will still die:

Isa 65:17 “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.
Isa 65:19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.
Isa 65:20 No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.
Isa 65:24 Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

Earlier during the time of judgment on the nations at the time of Israel's exile He spoke of the shaking of the heavens and the earth. Now He speaks of the new heaven and new earth. But it differs from John and Peter's version. For instance, there are still sinners. There is still death, but the whole thing is characterized by extreme fulfillments of the covenant blessings (wild animals not destroying, abundant crops, no one taking the crops, no one destrying, long life, etc.)

It is possible this was a possible fulfillment if they were faithful. Or, as you raise the possibility, and I think that is an interesting discussion, it could be seen as a description of the 1k years.

However, per John the new heavens and new earth follow the 1k years, rather than people being present in them for the 1k years. Chapter 20 discusses the 1k years. Then after that and the white throne judgment we see:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

yah that is kinda what i had in mind. what i was looking at. still not 100% though. about 65-70% need more study

Adventist Dissident · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
It is about assembly, which the other texts describe.

And those burnt offerings are for all the appointed times. The New Moon is included.

Note this shorter summary statement:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

that prince is Christ, he provided himself , the burnt offering, grain offering and drink offering

SabbathBlessings · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
It is about assembly, which the other texts describe.

And those burnt offerings are for all the appointed times. The New Moon is included.

Note this shorter summary statement:

Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel: he shall provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings, and peace offerings, to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel.

This sounds more like the annual feasts sabbath(s) and not the weekly Sabbath that is one of God's commandments that He personally wrote on stone that will continue on the New Earth. Isaiah 66:23

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

SabbathBlessings stated: If God is saying we are going to be doing something specifically on the New Earth- do you not think that is worthy of doing now? .

BobRyan said:
It shows that "it did not get deleted at the cross"

Like the new moon?

Isa 66:23 From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD.

Adventist Dissident · Jul 27, 2021

tall73 said:
It is possible this was a possible fulfillment if they were faithful. Or, as you raise the possibility, and I think that is an interesting discussion, it could be seen as a description of the 1k years.

However, per John the new heavens and new earth follow the 1k years, rather than people being present in them for the 1k years. Chapter 20 discusses the 1k years. Then after that and the white throne judgment we see:

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

clarify please
so are you saying that people will not be present in the 1k

Major1 · Jul 27, 2021

icedragon101 said:
put it in its context, who is paul talking to and who is he talking about? Paul is talking about Jews judging you not other Christians.

in vs 6-9 he is talking about greek/roman/pagan philosophy and religion , and how Christ defeats those systems and authorities,

in vs 8-15 he turn his attention to the Jewish problems they are facing The Jews are telling them they are not practicing the faith the right way, you are not sacrificing and you are not circumcising, you are not reconciled back to God and you are not meeting the requirement to have the blessing of the covenant. Paul comes in and says Christ has become your circumcision and you sacrifice for you, so you are OK as far as reconciliation and blessings go. Now because you are reconciled by Christ, don't let the Jews tell you other wise. Now concerning the cermonial stuff do let the Jews tell you how to observe them. It is not saying don't observe them. that is a wrong conclusion

Col 2
2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ
6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

I do not agree with your opinion.

Would you mind posting the source of your post?

Actually, it has been my understanding here that Paul is talking to Christians that are living in a community with many Ascetics, Stoics, etc. who condemned Christians for not suffering and depriving themselves as they did.

These other people were acting morally superior and making the Christians feel bad for eating meat, drinking wine, celebrating festivals and sabbaths, and feeling the joy of life. That is the "Conte

Paul's advice is to ignore the judgement of others, and accept only the judgement of the body of Christ which was the Church.

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
This sounds more like the annual feasts sabbath(s) and not the weekly Sabbath that is one of God's commandments that He personally wrote on stone that will continue on the New Earth. Isaiah 66:23

a. the new moon is referenced, and it is not a month, but a day.

b. It includes the weekly sabbath actually, as does Numbers 28 and 29 as well.

The context goes on to give more details, and to associate them again. An note, this is the weekly sabbath:

Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.

Six working days....that is the weekly sabbath.

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

Major1 said:
I do not agree with your opinion.

Would you mind posting the source of your post?

Actually, it has been my understanding here that Paul is talking to Christians that are living in a community with many Ascetics, Stoics, etc. who condemned Christians for not suffering and depriving themselves as they did.

These other people were acting morally superior and making the Christians feel bad for eating meat, drinking wine, celebrating festivals and sabbaths, and feeling the joy of life. That is the "Conte

Paul's advice is to ignore the judgement of others, and accept only the judgement of the body of Christ which was the Church.

We know it was in the context of a list of things that distract from Christ (philosophy, worship of angels, etc.) And we know it warned against judging.

We don't know the details of who was judging.

But the more crucial part is that everything in the list was called shadows. So the question is what was included.

The shadows element is also why Adventists often exclude the weekly Sabbath from the list. But as you noted Ezekiel 45 makes that unlikely since the weekly sabbath was included in the appointed times list which is very similar to Col. 2.

But then you need to explain how the sabbath was a shadow.

tall73 · Jul 27, 2021

MMXX said:
How does that fit in with God commanding the people to cease from doing any kind of work?

Any usual work. The priest worked more on the sabbath, offering extra sacrifices.

Jesus said His Father is always at work, and so is He.

Major1 · Jul 27, 2021

mmksparbud said:
All you have to do is produce one verse that states we are to worship on the first day of the week. All there is are verses that the 7th day of the week is God's day. He created it, and the word "rest" is actually translated ceased in the original Hebrew.

2 and~he~will~much~FINISH(V) (וַיְכַל / wai'khal) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) BUSINESS ~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(V) (עָשָׂה / a'sah) and~he~will~CEASE(V) (וַיִּשְׁבֹּת / wai'yish'bot) in~the~DAY (בַּיּוֹם / ba'yom) the~SEVENTH (הַשְּׁבִיעִי / hash'vi'i) from~ALL (מִכָּל / mi'kol) BUSINESS ~him (מְלַאכְתּוֹ / mê'lakh'to) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~DO(V) (עָשָׂה / a'sah)

RMT: and Elohiym finished in the seventh day his business which he did, and he ceased in the seventh day from all his business which he did,

Acts 20:9-11........
"And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight. And there were many lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together."

Many Sabbatarians actually argue that this meeting took place on the Sabbath, then say it was the Lord's supper, not a common meal. Some over-zealous, but under-learned Sabbath keepers, will state the actual Greek words used in Acts 20:7 & 1 Cor 16:1 actually refer to the weekly Sabbath, not the first day of the week. They say "first day of the week", is a mistranslation. The only ones who say this are those who have no knowledge of Greek. All translations of the Bible say "first" of the week. We know of no Bible of any kind that says "seventh" day of the week. (Note: Seventh-day Adventists don't usually make this argument.)
Source:Acts 20:7 Proof of weekly communion on Sunday (bible.ca)

Lets then dig deeper on this since YOU brought it up.

When closely reading Acts 21:4, 28:4, 28:14, and 20:6 you will see that Paul's habit was to stay 7 days. This meant Paul arrived and left on the first day of the week.

Now hold on because that means he was with the disciples for two Sundays but only one Sabbath.

If I was a Sabbatarian, or a 7th Day adherent, I would surely make sure I spent two Sabbaths and only one Sunday!

In this way Paul stretched his time with the disciples to maximize the number of worship services together.

The record of history is that Christians met together before day break Sunday morning. Here, is a Biblical text that says exactly that! Paul arrived the Sunday before and left the following Sunday morning at 6AM.

Acts 20: 6 + 11 proves, counting backwards, that Paul arrived 7 days before Sunday... or one week earlier on Sunday.

Go figure my friend.

Why do SDA preach

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