Why do religious believers try to impose their beliefs on others?

[ephraimanesti]

The Declaration of Independence simply declared the independence of thirteen States from Great Britain. It is not the basis of laws in the United States. The Constitution is the basis of laws in the United States and it doesn’t mention your religious beliefs at all. In fact, the First Amendment seeks to ensure that your religious beliefs will never play a part in the laws of the United States.

MY DEAR FRIEND,

Trusting that you will honestly admit that the signers of the Constitution were, to a man, deists/theists, perhaps we can honestly look at the intent of the First Amendment which you mention--but willfully drawing the wrong conclusions, of course.
Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation


Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic

Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic

Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist

Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist

John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist

Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist

Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian

William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian

James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian

George Read Delaware Episcopalian

Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian

David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian

Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian

Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian

Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian

John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian

Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian

Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian

Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian

George Washington Virginia Episcopalian

Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)

William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian

James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran

Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist

Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran

William Few Georgia Methodist

Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist

Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian

James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian

William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian

William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian

Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian

Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian

Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian

Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian

John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian

John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian

George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian

Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran

The First Amendment begins: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF."

Contrary to those who want to eliminate all religious expression from the public forum, these words were obviously written to protect freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. The language of the Amendment clearly prohibits the establishment of an official national religion--such as found in England or other European countries--while as the same time protecting the observance of religion in both private and public spaces.

Atheists, with the help of a misguided Supreme Court and the ACLU have been trampling on this basic right for about 60 years now. Perhaps it is time that the violation of the First Amendment stop and the small band of atheists making all the noise be silenced and relegated to their proper place in a God-believing society--on the fringes.

Excuse me? Could you please demonstrate this “fact“? Please show us that your spittle-flecked assertion that human beings were created in God’s image is true.

"Spittle-flecked"? My, my--that's colorful!

In any event, it is obviously not possible to prove that "human beings were created in God's image" to someone who has not "evolved"--as atheists considered themselves to be--enough to even recognize the very existence of God Himself.

Yet great apes, dolphins, Asian elephants and even magpies are self-aware despite what you may believe. Your beliefs are once again contradicted by reality.

i am anxiously looking forward to watching you try to prove that "magpies are self-aware" when obviously somewhat more highly "evolved" atheists are not.

So you think people are not responsible for their behaviour?

No, Christianity holds that all are responsible for their behavior--their actions or lack of actions--and all will have to answer for them to their Creator--including atheists.

However, the point was that human beings were created perfect--in the Image and Likeness of the Perfect God--and it is sin which has turned mankind into the benighted sinners we have become. Sin is not what we ARE--it is what we DO.

Of course they were Christians who believed and practiced these things. What; do you think non-Christians would propose and pass laws against blaspheming only the Christian God and then execute people for it? Of course your religion teaches these things. Have you just been ignoring the Biblical quotes I’ve been giving you?

The Christian Bible teaches that blasphemers and anyone who defiles the sabbath should be put to death.

NO, the CHRISTIAN Bible preaches and teaches the Gospel--"The Good News"--which sums up the Old Testament, as Our Lord states: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets [i.e. the Old Testament]."(Matthew 22:37-40)

Regarding the treatment of blasphemers and unbelievers--including atheists, by the way--our Lord teachs us--"But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. and from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even unbelievers do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and the evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." (Luke 6:27-36)

Irronically, it is atheists who have historically sought, when having the power to do so, to exterminate Christians and other deists/theists for their belief in God. Even more ironically, atheists know this very well and yet choose to dishonestly continue with their self-righteous crusade against the Truth. Doesn't crass dishonesty this embarrass you even a little?

Atheism does not teach atheists to execute people the way the Bible teaches these things. Show me the atheist “bible” that directly exhorts atheists to execute people in the same way the Christian Bible directly exhorts Christians to execute people for things as trivial as insulting an immaterial concept or gathering sticks on some arbitrarily designated day. Atheism is the realisation that your God is imaginary; it doesn’t teach atheists to execute anyone.

Atheists do not need to be "taught" to execute people, they seem to have a natural nack of doing so when given the opportunity arises, probably because the maxim "the survival of the fittest" is the first commandment of their belief system. But i suppose that if one took the time to read through the proclamations of the atheistic regimes in Soviet Russia, Communist China, Rhymer Rouge controlled Cambodia, etc., one could easily find the deadly "exhortations" you are seeking.

It is Christianity that teaches its believers to execute people for trivial and contrived offences.

This statement, in effect, is blasphemy against the all-consuming LOVE of God, of whom it is rightfully said, "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance."(II Peter 3:9) Or, more to the point, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that world through Him might be saved." (John 3:16, 17)

You are very very lucky that your atheistic blasphemy was spoken among Christians rather than your position being reversed and entailed your speaking the Truth among atheists!

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[3sigma]

Trusting that you will honestly admit that the signers of the Constitution were, to a man, deists/theists…

So they were religious believers—so what? They were all men as well. Does that mean that the United States was founded as a masculine nation? The fact that they were religious believers is irrelevant. The Constitution doesn’t mention your particular religious beliefs at all. Its wording and intent remain secular.

The language of the Amendment clearly prohibits the establishment of an official national religion--such as found in England or other European countries--while as the same time protecting the observance of religion in both private and public spaces.

Yes, it prohibits the establishment of a state religion and the Establishment Clause has been interpreted by the courts to mean that the government should not endorse one religion over another. Hence, your particular religious beliefs should never be part of the laws of the United States.

You can practice your religious beliefs in private or public as much as you like. Neither atheists nor the ACLU are trying to stop you. However, no government entity should endorse your religious beliefs in any way.

"Spittle-flecked"? My, my--that's colorful!

In any event, it is obviously not possible to prove that "human beings were created in God's image" to someone who has not "evolved"--as atheists considered themselves to be--enough to even recognize the very existence of God Himself.

When something is typed in all uppercase, as was your unsubstantiated claim, it conveys the impression that you are shouting or screaming frothingly at someone. I take it from this response of yours that you cannot show us that your unsubstantiated claim is true. I expected as much.

i am anxiously looking forward to watching you try to prove that "magpies are self-aware" when obviously somewhat more highly "evolved" atheists are not.

I take it then that you didn’t bother reading that paper at PLoS Biology to which I linked or any of the references to other papers within that first paper? Here are some papers on dolphins and Asian elephants for you to ignore as well.

Of course they were Christians who believed and practiced these things. What; do you think non-Christians would propose and pass laws against blaspheming only the Christian God and then execute people for it? Of course your religion teaches these things. Have you just been ignoring the Biblical quotes I’ve been giving you?

[omitted Biblical quotes]

The Christian Bible teaches that blasphemers and anyone who defiles the sabbath should be put to death.

NO, the CHRISTIAN Bible preaches and teaches the Gospel…

I notice that you omitted the Biblical quotes I gave you that teach Christians to execute people for trivial and contrived offences. Why did you do that? It’s almost as though you refuse to acknowledge, even to yourself, that they exist.

Regarding the treatment of blasphemers and unbelievers--including atheists, by the way--our Lord teachs us--"But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.

No… the Bible teaches Christians to execute blasphemers, as I’ve amply demonstrated, yet you repeatedly ignore all the evidence. Why is that?

Irronically, it is atheists who have historically sought, when having the power to do so, to exterminate Christians and other deists/theists for their belief in God. Even more ironically, atheists know this very well and yet choose to dishonestly continue with their self-righteous crusade against the Truth. Doesn't crass dishonesty this embarrass you even a little?

First, I see you are still dishonestly equating atheism with Communism. Again, it is totalitarian Communist regimes driven by the need to maintain political power that do these things. Atheism does not teach atheists to execute people the way the Bible teaches Christians to execute people for trivial and contrived offences. Please stop claiming that it does unless you can substantiate your claims with some sound evidence that atheism teaches these things. Don’t just keep saying the Communists were atheists implying it must be atheism that caused them to execute people—prove it. I can see why you would come to this erroneous conclusion if you think that the signatories to the Constitution being Christians implies that the Constitution is based on Christian beliefs.

Second, this entire line of argument is an ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. Even if it was atheism that drove the Communists to execute people (which is an unsubstantiated claim), that doesn’t excuse Christians for executing people for blasphemy and heresy or for burning witches.

Perhaps it is time that the violation of the First Amendment stop and the small band of atheists making all the noise be silenced and relegated to their proper place in a God-believing society--on the fringes.
…
Atheists do not need to be "taught" to execute people, they seem to have a natural nack of doing so when given the opportunity arises, probably because the maxim "the survival of the fittest" is the first commandment of their belief system.

And here we have some examples of the intolerance some Christians show towards atheists. Atheists should be silenced. Atheists naturally will execute people. Charming.

But i suppose that if one took the time to read through the proclamations of the atheistic regimes in Soviet Russia, Communist China, Rhymer Rouge controlled Cambodia, etc., one could easily find the deadly "exhortations" you are seeking.

Don’t just suppose it—prove it. Provide some sound evidence substantiating your claim that atheism teaches atheists to execute people.

I’ve given you plenty of evidence in the form of direct quotes from the Bible demonstrating that it teaches Christians to execute people for trivial and contrived offences. The laws against blasphemy and executions under those laws are ample evidence that Christians acting according to their religious beliefs have executed people for trivial and contrived offences.

 

[Jpark]

He has no need to do that because he’s going to kill them himself.

2THESS 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2THESS 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is not destruction in a literal sense. This does not result in annihilation or extinction. This is spiritual poverty, the loss of well-being. The flesh sees corruption and is an abhorrence to all flesh. (Isaiah 66:24) The Lady of Fatima even says that the body and the spirit will join together and will go down to the everlasting fire.

The Bible is God’s word, is it not? So what does the Bible say Christians should do to blasphemers?

LEV 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

You say a True Christian "shows his faith by his works" and "looks into God's Word and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work." One presumes then that a True Christian should follow God’s word and kill blasphemers, right? According to the Bible, Jesus even said that he was determined to fulfil the Old Testament laws.

MT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus reiterates the admonition against blasphemy.

MT 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

And if you go against Jesus your punishment will be worse than death.

HEB 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

HEB 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

So what should a True Christian do if not follow God’s word and kill blasphemers?

The law was in effect until John. Since that time God's coming has been preached and salvation is by belief and repentance. (Luke 16:16) Now, all the law is summed up in one that is love. (1 John 3:23)

Well they certainly weren’t non-Christians. The people who proposed and passed laws against blasphemy with penalties including execution were religious believers who believed in the Christian God so what should they be called if not Christians? Why would anyone other than a Christian propose and pass a law against insulting just the Christian God? You don’t think they were non-Christians who proposed such a law do you?

They were either religious extremists, false teachers, Christians with little faith or Christians with faithless faith. They either did not interpret the Scripture correctly or they are deceived or deluded.

Why would any rational person with a sense of justice and an ounce of compassion propose a law carrying the death penalty for the innocuous offence of insulting an immaterial, undetectable God that is indistinguishable from imagination? What sort of people would do that?

Well, these were devoted extremists who took the word of God in the OT literally. Perhaps they did not know that the Old Testament laws were until John. The Bible even predicts that the love of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12)

 

[ephraimanesti]

So they were religious believers—so what? They were all men as well. Does that mean that the United States was founded as a masculine nation? The fact that they were religious believers is irrelevant. The Constitution doesn’t mention your particular religious beliefs at all. Its wording and intent remain secular.

Yes, it prohibits the establishment of a state religion and the Establishment Clause has been interpreted by the courts to mean that the government should not endorse one religion over another. Hence, your particular religious beliefs should never be part of the laws of the United States.

You can practice your religious beliefs in private or public as much as you like. Neither atheists nor the ACLU are trying to stop you. However, no government entity should endorse your religious beliefs in any way.

MY FRIEND--The point is not so much "endorsing" any particular religious beliefs of mine or anyone else's, but following what the First Amendment clearly states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF."

As stated before, contrary to the misguided anti-christian crusades of the ACLU and the unconscionable rulings of the "supreme" court, the First Amendment was written to protect freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. The First Amendment's language clearly prohibits the establishment of an OFFICIAL national religion, while at the same time protecting the observance of religious beliefs and practices in BOTH private and public spaces. In fact, two of the principal authors of the First Amendment, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who were also our country's Third and Fourth Presidents, both attended church services in the Capitol building, the most public of all American spaces. During Jefferson's presidency, church services were also held in the Treasury building and in the Supreme Court building. Therefore, these Founding Fathers clearly saw no conflict in opposing the establishment of an official state religion while, at the same time, working to insure the protection of the freedom of religious expression in the public square.

When something is typed in all uppercase, as was your unsubstantiated claim, it conveys the impression that you are shouting or screaming frothingly at someone.

i WILL TRY TO KEEP THAT IN MIND.

I take it from this response of yours that you cannot show us that your unsubstantiated claim is true. I expected as much.

It is, of course, impossible to demonstrate that human beings are created in the image and likeness of their Creator when the very existence of that Creator is denied and His Image and Likeness ridiculed.

Taking things in order, it might be best for you to first come to an acceptance of Reality--that a Creator God does indeed exist--before pretending to seek further and deeper knowledge Him and what He has created.

I take it then that you didn’t bother reading that paper at PLoS Biology to which I linked or any of the references to other papers within that first paper? Here are some papers on Asian elephants for you to ignore as well.

i don't "ignore" these things, but find comparing the basic awareness of physical existence on an external and primitive sense which higher animals possess as a survival tool, with the Self-awareness mankind has been given by its Creator as a Tool for Spiritual growth and development and an aid for the development of a relationship with God Himself.

I notice that you omitted the Biblical quotes I gave you that teach Christians to execute people for trivial and contrived offences. Why did you do that? It’s almost as though you refuse to acknowledge, even to yourself, that they exist.

No… the Bible teaches Christians to execute blasphemers, as I’ve amply demonstrated, yet you repeatedly ignore all the evidence. Why is that?

Well, mainly because God has refused to allow Christians to execute people for any reason--"trivial and contrived" or otherwise. The Scriptures you cite deal with Jews, not Christians, and became obsolete on the first Christmas morning.

This attempt to burden Christians with laws and commands given by God to Jews in the Old Testament in a particular time and place and for a very necessary reason is the oldest straw-man game in the atheist repertoire and the lamest. Anyone with even a superficial passing knowlege of Jesus Christ and His teachings can see how ludicrous the idea of His ordering His followers to execute those who He has repeatedly demanded that they Love and Forgive without measure--a Love and Forgiveness which He Himself demonstrated on the Cross in Forgiving those who had nailed Him to it.

First, I see you are still dishonestly equating atheism with Communism. Again, it is totalitarian Communist regimes driven by the need to maintain political power that do these things. Atheism does not teach atheists to execute people the way the Bible teaches Christians to execute people for trivial and contrived offences. Please stop claiming that it does unless you can substantiate your claims with some sound evidence that atheism teaches these things. Don’t just keep saying the Communists were atheists implying it must be atheism that caused them to execute people—prove it.

So, you are implying that the fact that ALL the "founders" of the communist states of the last century and those upon whose theories these avowed atheistic states based their social policies which such devastatingly horrible and deadly results--Trotsky, Lenin, Stalin, Engels, Mao, etc.--were a coincidence? That is indeed atheistic revisionism taken to its illogical conclusion for sure!

COMMUNISM DOES NOT CAUSE ATTROCITIES--ATHEISM DOES. One can excuse anything by pleading the sacred words of Charles Darwin--"Survival of the fittest." If human beings are indeed all nothing more than evolved animals, than human life really has no intrinsic value, and, as Dostoevsky observed, "If there is no God, than all things are allowed." Atheists in Soviet Russian, Communist China, Cambodia, etc. have given us a grim glimpse of what this looks like in the real world.

The early Christian Church was communistic in structure and many small Christian groups extant today still are. Communism is a beautiful ideal--it is the atheism that makes it deadly. (i would think that some communists would have self-righteously complained by now regarding my linking communism with atheism, Their case would be much strong than your weak defensive of the indefensible.)

I can see why you would come to this erroneous conclusion if you think that the signatories to the Constitution being Christians implies that the Constitution is based on Christian beliefs.

Well, i seem to be in pretty good company. As the Thirteenth President of our Country observed, "The foundation of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."--Calvin Coolidge

Or, as our First President observed, "It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God and to obey His will."--George Washington

Second, this entire line of argument is an ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. Even if it was atheism that drove the Communists to execute people (which is an unsubstantiated claim), that doesn’t excuse Christians for executing people for blasphemy and heresy or for burning witches.

You are absolutely correct! There is indeed no excuse for many of the things which so-called "christians" have done in the Name of their God Who is Love. What they have done will be costly for them when they try to explain their ungodly acts to their God. They have done evil KNOWING it to be evil, while others--atheists for example--have done evil THINKING it to be good.

And here we have some examples of the intolerance some Christians show towards atheists. Atheists should be silenced. Atheists naturally will execute people. Charming.

Well, "charming" isn't a word i would use, but a refusal to accept a false idea is not intolerance towards the individual clinging to atheistic doctrines and dogma, but towards their lethal belief system and toxic world view and its effects on the society around them. (i find it rather amusing in this regard that the main reason for the persecution of Christians by the Roman Empire was that they viewed Christians as "atheists.")

Don’t just suppose it—prove it. Provide some sound evidence substantiating your claim that atheism teaches atheists to execute people.

Atheism does not "teach atheists to execute people"--it just makes it easy for them to do so without a pesky God-informed conscience getting in the way. Once you lose contact with God--who is the TRUE source of our knowledge of what is good and what is evil--"good" becomes a relative term and translates into whatever you see as being in YOUR best interests--including the murder of hundreds of millions by atheists in the name of the best interests of the state. Thanks to atheists, even the slaughter of millions of unborn children in their mothers' wombs is labeled "a great social good."

I’ve given you plenty of evidence in the form of direct quotes from the Bible demonstrating that it teaches Christians to execute people for trivial and contrived offences. The laws against blasphemy and executions under those laws are ample evidence that Christians acting according to their religious beliefs have executed people for trivial and contrived offences.

Actually, all you have provided is a rather silly succession of straw-men. The Bible teaches Christians two things, "TO LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL OUR HEART, MIND, AND STRENGTH" and "TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES."

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[3sigma]

The law was in effect until John. Since that time God's coming has been preached and salvation is by belief and repentance. (Luke 16:16) Now, all the law is summed up in one that is love. (1 John 3:23)

Well, mainly because God has refused to allow Christians to execute people for any reason--"trivial and contrived" or otherwise. The Scriptures you cite deal with Jews, not Christians, and became obsolete on the first Christmas morning.

You both appear to be saying that Christians pay no attention to the Old Testament laws, but your claims are plainly contradicted by reality. Christians the world over have, for centuries, imprisoned, tortured and executed people based on the teachings of the Old Testament. If you disagree then how do you explain the fact that Christians around the world have proposed and passed laws against blasphemy with penalties of imprisonment or death? How do you explain the fact that Christians have imprisoned, tortured and executed people for heresy throughout the ages? How do you explain the fact that Christians have, for hundreds of years, imprisoned, tortured and burned people for witchcraft? Where is the love in all this torture and death for what, in effect, are trivial, contrived or imagined offences?

They were either religious extremists, false teachers, Christians with little faith or Christians with faithless faith. They either did not interpret the Scripture correctly or they are deceived or deluded.
…
Well, these were devoted extremists who took the word of God in the OT literally. Perhaps they did not know that the Old Testament laws were until John. The Bible even predicts that the love of many will grow cold. (Matthew 24:12)

You are absolutely correct! There is indeed no excuse for many of the things which so-called "christians" have done in the Name of their God Who is Love.
…
Actually, all you have provided is a rather silly succession of straw-men. The Bible teaches Christians two things, "TO LOVE THE LORD WITH ALL OUR HEART, MIND, AND STRENGTH" and "TO LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES."

Christians have proposed and passed laws against blasphemy in Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States. Were all those Christians in all those countries who proposed and voted in majority on those laws extremists, false teachers, of little or no faith, deceived or deluded? If so then this extremism, deception and delusion appears to be widespread throughout Christendom. How could so many people be so deluded that this trivial, victimless offence could become enshrined in law in so many countries? Doesn’t imprisoning or executing people for such a trivial, victimless offence show a distinct lack of love for people who don’t believe as Christians do?

Were all the politicians and Church leaders who instigated and sanctioned the various Inquisitions extremists, deceived or deluded? How far does this delusion extend? The everyday Christians in those times who were witnesses at the trials, who watched the burnings and who didn’t speak out against the torture and execution of people for contrived, victimless offences, were they also deluded? Were most Christians in those times simply deluded? What has changed since then? If Christians today began torturing people and burning them at the stake for contrived, victimless offences would either of you speak out against it? If not, why not? If so, what would you think of everyday Christians who wouldn’t speak out against such things?

 

[ephraimanesti]

MY DEAR FRIEND--i am loath to admit it, but this exercise in futility is becoming extremely tedious--not to mention circular and innane--like an unwanted homework assignment, so i will do my best to answer your questioning "cries for knowledge" one last time, and then move on to something else.

You both appear to be saying that Christians pay no attention to the Old Testament laws, but your claims are plainly contradicted by reality. Christians the world over have, for centuries, imprisoned, tortured and executed people based on the teachings of the Old Testament.

Where is the love in all this torture and death for what, in effect, are trivial, contrived or imagined offences?

Getting down to basics--a "Christian" is one who has completely surrendered to Jesus Christ as His Lord/God/and Savior, completely accepts and follows (to the best of his/her ability) our Lord's teachings and example, and has residing and controlling within him/her God's Holy Spirit.

Now, given that very strict definition of Christian--the "No Proper Scotsman Fallacy" in no wise applies to the appelation "Christian"!--you, as an atheist and believer in nothing beyond your disbelief, need to realize that for a Christian worthy of the Name, it is quite totally impossible to commit the crimes against God and man you accuse Christians of perpetrating other than in isolated and aberational instances--sins, in other words:

#1. We are totally surrendered to our Lord and act only at His behest.

For example regarding the case at hand: "Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?' But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to same them." (Luke 9:51-56)

#2. We completely accept and attempt to adhere to our Lord's teachings and example.

For example: "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' BUT I TELL YOU not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' BUT I SAY TO YOU, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:39-48)

#3. The mark of a Christian is the indwelling Holy Spirit residing in his/her heart and controlling his/her Life and the choices which make that Life up:

For example: "If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. . . . These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:15-17; 25-26)

So, pointing out the obvious, the crimes against mankind--and their Creator--which atheists so gleefully trot forth at any and every opportunity, are diametrically opposed to our Lord's teachings and life example--summed up in His asking His Father to forgive those who nailed Him--the Innocent One--to the Cross and tortured Him to death--and are made impossible for Christians to commit by the fact that the indwelling Holy Spirit will not allow a Christian to act against His Lord's Commandments. The individual may choose to do so in spite of the Holy Spirit's words and urgings, but at the point of choice he/she ceases to be a Christian until he/she repents, confesses his/her sin, makes whatever ammends are possible, and forswears future repition of the sin.

Which, of course, is not to say that Christians never sin--against each other, against mankind, and/or against their God. Freewill remains alive and well in the most dedicated Christian, and sinning is ever possible. However, with a true disciple of Our Lord, the sinful aberations in behavior, due to the insistent work of the Holy Spirit within, are self-limiting and of relatively short duration, our Lord's Commandment to Love always emerging victorious. For example, in the three centuries of its existence, the Spanish Inquisition--that beloved bug-a-boo of all dedicated atheists--executed approximately two thousand people for heresy.{The Spanish Inquisition, Henry Kamen} Yes, admitedly one execution in God's Name would have been far to many, but the sin was self-limited as such things go.

To put things in perspective, atheists, on the other hand, having no Holy Spirit and no limitations on their ungodly beliefs, designs, and homicidal impulses, murdered over 100 million human beings in about 80 years during the last century, and the toll continues to rise as we speak in Communist China and elsewhere where atheists and their world view hold sway.{Black Book of Communism, Stephane Courtois}

Christians have proposed and passed laws against blasphemy in Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Spain, Switzerland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

How could so many people be so deluded that this trivial, victimless offence could become enshrined in law in so many countries? Doesn’t imprisoning or executing people for such a trivial, victimless offence show a distinct lack of love for people who don’t believe as Christians do?

Blasphemy is a Hate Crime. It is NOT victimless! Ask the Jewish survivors of Hitler's pagan blasphemies; ask the Christian survivors of Stalin's atheistic blasphemies; ask the Buddhist/Taoist survivors of Pol Pot's chauvinistic blasphemies.

That being said, our Lord never raised a hand--or even His voice--against those who didn't believe as He did--even against those who killed Him--and i would agree that it would behoove Christians to follow suit. However, it is obligitory for civil authorities to protect the rights of all citizens--believers and non-believers alike--and, given the fact that blasphemy is a hate crime, it should be treated--and punished--as such, within the law and within reason. If atheists are to be "protected" from being offended at the sight of a Nativity scene in a Mall, surely it is not beyond the pale for Christians to be protected from the sight of a Crucifix immersed in urine.

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[3sigma]

Getting down to basics--a "Christian" is one who has completely surrendered to Jesus Christ as His Lord/God/and Savior, completely accepts and follows (to the best of his/her ability) our Lord's teachings and example, and has residing and controlling within him/her God's Holy Spirit.

Now, given that very strict definition of Christian--the "No Proper Scotsman Fallacy" in no wise applies to the appelation "Christian"!--you, as an atheist and believer in nothing beyond your disbelief, need to realize that for a Christian worthy of the Name, it is quite totally impossible to commit the crimes against God and man you accuse Christians of perpetrating other than in isolated and aberational instances--sins, in other words:

#1. We are totally surrendered to our Lord and act only at His behest.
…
#2. We completely accept and attempt to adhere to our Lord's teachings and example.
…
#3. The mark of a Christian is the indwelling Holy Spirit residing in his/her heart and controlling his/her Life and the choices which make that Life up:
…
So, pointing out the obvious, the crimes against mankind--and their Creator--which atheists so gleefully trot forth at any and every opportunity, are diametrically opposed to our Lord's teachings and life example--summed up in His asking His Father to forgive those who nailed Him--the Innocent One--to the Cross and tortured Him to death--and are made impossible for Christians to commit by the fact that the indwelling Holy Spirit will not allow a Christian to act against His Lord's Commandments.

I see. True Christians do God’s bidding, follow the teachings of Jesus, display love towards others, wouldn’t commit crimes, wouldn’t commit violent acts against people and follow God’s Commandments. Okay, so based on this definition of True Christians, it follows that all of the following are not True Christians.

• All those self-proclaimed Christians who proposed and voted for laws against blasphemy with penalties of imprisonment or death in all the countries around the world where such laws were proposed were not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who instigated the Inquisitions or any of the other violent persecutions and punishments for heresy were not True Christians.
• All the self-proclaimed Christian church leaders and followers who sanctioned the Inquisitions and brutal punishments for heresy were not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who participated in the witch-hunts, trials and executions were not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christian priests who sexually molest young children are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christian church leaders who protect those pædophile priests are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who discriminate against people of different religions, races or sexual preference are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who fight in wars are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who make idols for themselves are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who blaspheme are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who work on the sabbath are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who dishonour their parents are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who commit violent crimes are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who commit adultery are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who steal are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who lie are not True Christians.
• All those self-proclaimed Christians who covert another’s spouse or goods are not True Christians.

Let us know if you think any of the above are True Christians. It would seem, then, that there are not many self-proclaimed Christians who are True Christians even though they may be absolutely certain in their God belief. If, as you say, no True Christian would ever commit any of the above acts then I have no objection to True Christians. I do, however, object to the behaviour of people who call themselves Christians and who do many of those things. Why do you think these people who are absolutely certain that God exists and who profess to be Christians behave in such ways?

The individual may choose to do so in spite of the Holy Spirit's words and urgings, but at the point of choice he/she ceases to be a Christian until he/she repents, confesses his/her sin, makes whatever ammends are possible, and forswears future repition of the sin.

You appear to be saying that people can be True Christians up to the point where they kill someone (for example), whereupon they are no longer True Christians, but then all they need to do is confess their sin and they become True Christians again? How convenient.

For example, in the three centuries of its existence, the Spanish Inquisition--that beloved bug-a-boo of all dedicated atheists--executed approximately two thousand people for heresy.{The Spanish Inquisition, Henry Kamen} Yes, admitedly one execution in God's Name would have been far to many, but the sin was self-limited as such things go.

I think the most likely limiting factors were the lack of technology and the low population densities. Without mass media, pervasive communications and advanced weapons unavailable to the general population, the Catholic Church repressed the population as best it could. I have to ask, though, why did you limit yourself only to the Spanish Inquisition? It was far from the only example of atrocities directly caused by and committed in the name of religion.

To put things in perspective, atheists, on the other hand, having no Holy Spirit and no limitations on their ungodly beliefs, designs, and homicidal impulses, murdered over 100 million human beings in about 80 years during the last century, and the toll continues to rise as we speak in Communist China and elsewhere where atheists and their world view hold sway.{Black Book of Communism, Stephane Courtois}

This paragraph of yours conveys the impression that it is a quote from the Black Book of Communism or at least a conclusion drawn by the book, but I suspected that in your eagerness to blame atheism for the evils of communism you dishonestly misrepresented the book so I did some searching. I couldn’t find a copy of the text online, which isn’t surprising given that it was published only recently and is still on sale. However, I did find Stephane Courtois’ blog, which contains excerpts from the book and, in particular, an excerpt from the conclusion that attempts to answer the question: why did modern communism kill so many people? I was not surprised to find that atheism was not mentioned at all as a contributing factor. The main contributing factors to the communist terror outlined in the excerpt were the underlying cruelty of Russian culture, the example of the French Revolution, the totality and brutality of World War I and the mindset that the Russian revolution had degenerated into a permanent civil war against the bourgeoisie and dissenters. It becomes apparent, when reading the excerpt, that the reason that the State suppressed religions was because it was behaving as a religion itself and, like all totalitarian religions, it demanded total obedience and promoted hatred and intolerance of other religions.

Following the Bolshevik seizure of power, the status of ideology within the socialist movement changed radically. Before, 1917 Lenin had already demonstrated his adamant conviction that he was the only one who truly understood the doctrine of socialism and who could decode the “true meaning of history.” The outbreak of the Russian Revolution and the Bolshevik seizure of power appeared to Lenin as portents from above and as an incontestable confirmation that his ideology and his analyses were infallibly correct. After 1917 his policies and the theoretical elaboration that accompanied them became gospel. Ideology was transformed into dogma and absolute, universal truth.

In that 14,000 word excerpt, atheism is mentioned only twice and both times indirectly in explanations of how a State that has replaced traditional religions with its own dogma repressed its population in the way traditional religions repress their followers.

Before exterminating his enemies, Stalin had them displayed in public in a show-trial. Lenin had introduced this strategy in 1922, with the show-trial of the Socialist Revolutionaries. Stalin merely improved on the formula and made it a permanent feature of his apparatus of repression, applying it widely in Eastern Europe after 1948.

Annie Kriegel has shown how these trials served as a terrible mechanism of social cleansing and how, in an atheist state, the trials came to replace the hell that religion had traditionally promised. They also served to reinforce class hatred and publicly to stigmatize the enemy. Asian Communism took this procedure to its logical extreme, going so far as to organize “hate days.”

Traditional religions keep their followers in line with fear—the fear of hell and damnation—and threaten this punishment for those who do not believe or who go against the will of God. In a State where the influence of other religions has been suppressed yet the need to instil fear into the population remains, what better way of achieving this than by replacing the judgment of God with the show-trials of the State and the mythical hell of religions with the real hell of concentration camps.

Communist terror has often been compared to the great Catholic Inquisition. Here novelists are probably of more use than historians. In his magnificent novel La tunique d’infamie, Michel del Castillo remarks: “The purpose is not to torture or to burn the victim: the aim is to ask the right question. No terror without truth, which is its foundation. Without truth, how can error be recognized? . . . If one is certain that one possesses the truth, how can one leave one’s neighbor in error?”

The Church promised the remission of original sin, and salvation or eternal damnation in another world. Marx had a redemptive belief in the Promethean destiny of mankind. This was the messianic dream of the Great Evening. But for Leszek Kolakowski, “the idea that the world we see is so totally corrupt that it is beyond improvement, and that accordingly the world that will follow will bring plenitude, perfection, and ultimate liberation is one of the most monstrous aberrations of the human spirit. . . Of course this aberration is not an invention of our own time, but we should recognize that religious thought, which opposes all temporal values to the force of supernatural grace, is much less abominable than doctrines that tell us we can assure our salvation by jumping from the edge of the abyss to the glorious heights of the heavens.”

Ernest Renan was probably quite correct when he claimed in his Philosophical Dialogues that the sure way to guarantee oneself absolute power in an atheist society was not to threaten people with some mythological inferno, but to institute a real hell–a concentration camp to punish insurgents and to frighten all others, with a special police force made up of beings devoid of conscience and entirely devoted to the government in power–”obedient machines, unencumbered by moral scruples and prepared for every sort of cruelty.”

On the topic of this thread, it is interesting that I’ve seen that last statement in the first paragraph—“If one is certain that one possesses the truth, how can one leave one’s neighbor in error?”—echoed by Christians here and elsewhere as one of the reasons why religious believers feel the need to impose their beliefs on others. It is this absolute certainty that they are correct—despite, and perhaps in reaction to, a complete lack of sound evidence justifying that certainty—that leads them to be so self-righteous.

To return to the veracity of your claim, all I have to go on is the 14.000 word excerpt to which I’ve linked above. I haven’t read the entire Black Book of Communism and, given the excerpt’s apparent contradiction of your claim above, it would seem that neither have you. In the unlikely event that the rest of the book differs significantly from its conclusion, could you please provide an actual quote from the Black Book of Communism that supports your claim that atheism is to blame for the evils of communism because I still suspect that you have dishonestly misrepresented the book and that your claim is false?

Blasphemy is a Hate Crime. It is NOT victimless! Ask the Jewish survivors of Hitler's pagan blasphemies; ask the Christian survivors of Stalin's atheistic blasphemies; ask the Buddhist/Taoist survivors of Pol Pot's chauvinistic blasphemies.

Blasphemy is insulting or showing contempt or a lack of reverence for God. Claiming that Jews in the Holocaust, Christians in the Soviet Union and those killed by the Khmer Rouge were the victims of blasphemy is ludicrous.

However, it is obligitory for civil authorities to protect the rights of all citizens--believers and non-believers alike--and, given the fact that blasphemy is a hate crime, it should be treated--and punished--as such, within the law and within reason. If atheists are to be "protected" from being offended at the sight of a Nativity scene in a Mall, surely it is not beyond the pale for Christians to be protected from the sight of a Crucifix immersed in urine.

Blasphemy is insulting God, not Christians. It is not a hate crime and is, in effect, victimless. Thinking you have the right to punish people for your taking offence at blasphemy is like thinking you have the right to punish people for your taking offence at insults to your favourite celebrity. Taking offence at people insulting your favourite celebrity does not give you the right to imprison or execute people for it. Atheists have no more desire to be protected from nativity scenes than they desire protection from store Santa Clauses. We think of them both as quaint fairy tales. Why do you think religious believers have the right to punish people for insulting their gods?

 

[dewaddict84]

Wow. Theres a lot of fail in this thread. It's going way off topic and getting pretty vicious.

OP, people spread their ideas and beliefs for a variety of reasons. Some people like to be surrounded by similar people. Others simply like to inform.

But wow, yeah. Atheism really isn't all that bad. I don't like the ones that really push it, but theres folk pushing the other way too. Really people, just relax.

 

[3sigma]

OP, people spread their ideas and beliefs for a variety of reasons. Some people like to be surrounded by similar people. Others simply like to inform.

If the intention is simply to inform then why imprison and execute people for blasphemy? Why burn people at the stake for the imaginary crime of witchcraft? How is that informing people? Why do religious believers use such extreme violence to force non-believers to comply with their unsubstantiated beliefs?