Why do people try to obey the law when it's not possible

[JLB777]

I guess the reason someone try's to obey the law is because they have no faith, as it says in Galatians chapter 24,25,23
Romans 10 verse 17 Consequently faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard in the word of Christ.
The word of Christ is in the new testament.
You can't teach faith or love you can only show it.

Faith comes by God speaking to you!


I asked you about Idolatry, specifically -

If I went out and bought a statue of Jesus at a Catholic book store and took it home and worshiped it, would it be OK?

What is your opinion on idolatry, now that someone is a christian and they are free, is it now ok to commit idolatry?

In your opinion.


JLB

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The Covenant of Grace and Redemption do not cancel out the Covenant of Works, in fact, all non-Christians will be judged according to the Covenant of Works, the Holy law of God. In the imputation of the righteousness of Christ to believers we are made righteous, not because we're Covenant keepers, we are Covenant breakers, but because the Son of God lived the perfect life we never could, made the perfect sacrifice for His people, and is the head of the New Covenant. All of God's Covenants are eternal and immutable, they come from God and reflect His divine attributes.

 

[BobRyan]

I guess the reason someone try's to obey the law is because they have no faith, .

or else they are not in the one group in Romans 8:6-8 that Paul says "Does not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they".

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Perhaps they are those who read 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Or maybe they just simply sat down and read Romans chapter 6 and believed it.

It is hard to tell which reason it would be --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JLB777]

or else they are not in the one group in Romans 8:6-8 that Paul says "Does not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they".

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Perhaps they are those who read 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Or maybe they just simply sat down and read Romans chapter 6 and believed it.

It is hard to tell which reason it would be --

in Christ,

Bob

The Law of God?

The Commandments?

The Law Enoch kept?

The Law Job kept?

or The Law that Abraham kept?

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

To me, this scripture speaks more of relationship than keeping some rules that say - don't do this, don't touch that, don't eat this, observe this day...

Walking with God and obeying His voice.

Jesus said it this way -

39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. John 5:39-40

The heart cry of the Lord is -

Abide in Me...
Come to Me...
Walk with Me...

Of course, you can't live a sinful lifestyle and expect to walk with God.

However, it comes down to the motive of the heart.

Is your motive to walk with Him, and to Love Him.

Or, keep some rules so you will be good enough to go to heaven?

If it's the later, you have missed the point!


JLB

 

[BobRyan]

I guess the reason someone try's to obey the law is because they have no faith, .

or else they are not in the one group in Romans 8:6-8 that Paul says "Does not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they".

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Perhaps they are those who read 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Or maybe they just simply sat down and read Romans chapter 6 and believed it.

It is hard to tell which reason it would be --

The Law of God?

The Commandments?

Indeed - that is what the NT keeps arguing for.

In fact in Rev 14:12 we are told that the saints of the NT are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

And Jesus said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" which is in fact a quote from the TEN Commandments as given in Exodus 20.

At no point do the NT authors state or remotely imply that "nobody really knows what the Commandments of God are or what the Law of God is" as I am sure we both agree.

To me, this scripture speaks more of relationship than keeping some rules that say - don't do this, don't touch that, don't eat this, observe this day...

"IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:12.

In 1John 2:4-8 John goes into even more detail about those who claim to have a relationship with Christ - claim to love Him and "yet do not keep His commandments".

It is very similar to the statement that Paul makes in Romans 8:6-8.

For the NT writers the "Obedience of faith" was key. Christ makes the point clear in Matt 7 saying that not everyone that claimed to have a relationship with Him - actually had one. "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but rather he who DOES the Will of My Father".

And in Romans 2 Paul is in full agreement when it comes to the Gospel "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God - but rather it is the DOERS of the Law that will be justiFIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

At a certain "distance from the text" we can filter out all these inconvenient details - as I am sure we will all agree. But it begs the question as to whether that accurately reflects what the text teaches.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[JLB777]

or else they are not in the one group in Romans 8:6-8 that Paul says "Does not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they".

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Perhaps they are those who read 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

Or maybe they just simply sat down and read Romans chapter 6 and believed it.

It is hard to tell which reason it would be --




Indeed - that is what the NT keeps arguing for.

In fact in Rev 14:12 we are told that the saints of the NT are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

And Jesus said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" which is in fact a quote from the TEN Commandments as given in Exodus 20.

At no point do the NT authors state or remotely imply that "nobody really knows what the Commandments of God are or what the Law of God is" as I am sure we both agree.

"IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:12.

In 1John 2:4-8 John goes into even more detail about those who claim to have a relationship with Christ - claim to love Him and "yet do not keep His commandments".

It is very similar to the statement that Paul makes in Romans 8:6-8.

For the NT writers the "Obedience of faith" was key. Christ makes the point clear in Matt 7 saying that not everyone that claimed to have a relationship with Him - actually had one. "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but rather he who DOES the Will of My Father".

And in Romans 2 Paul is in full agreement when it comes to the Gospel "It is not the HEARERS of the Law that are JUST before God - but rather it is the DOERS of the Law that will be justiFIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16.

At a certain "distance from the text" we can filter out all these inconvenient details - as I am sure we will all agree. But it begs the question as to whether that accurately reflects what the text teaches.


in Christ,

Bob

You miss my point Bob.

Somehow, you think that I am making "reason" for wanting to live sinfully and still "think" I have a strong relationship with the Lord.

People assume when they see the phrase "Law of God" that means "Law of Moses".

Abraham obeyed My voice, was the testimony The Lord spoke about him.
This was 430 years before the law of Moses.

What Abraham obeyed, that enabled him to kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws, was walk before Me and be blameless.

Without walking before Him or walking with Him, which is to say without walking in His presence first, there will be no "keeping of the commandments, statutes or laws.

First comes abiding, then comes being fruitful!

Trying to keep His commandments without walking in His presence is futile, for apart from Me you can do nothing!

And Jesus said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" which is in fact a quote from the TEN Commandments as given in Exodus 20.

Let's see if what your are saying here is the context.


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Do you think this refers to keeping the ten commandments or does this refer to Jesus obeying His Father's voice, such as raising Lazurus from the dead, or healing the blind man or the countless other works He did, so much so that, there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

That's the context of Jesus words!

Obeying His voice! Not Moses Law!

The reason The Holy Spirit dwells within us is to be led, by hearing and seeing, not to keep the Law of Moses!

If a person is truly born again and baptized in The Holy Spirit, that person has a new divine nature that is empowered by The same Spirit that Jesus had. That nature has a desire unto righteousness.

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,

Are a law unto themselves! Does that sound like "keep Moses law".

You sir take scripture out of context and apply "commandments" as to only meaning Moses Law!

That is the context of Romans 2!


JLB

 

[BobRyan]

You miss my point Bob.

Somehow, you think that I am making "reason" for wanting to live sinfully and still "think" I have a strong relationship with the Lord.

People assume when they see the phrase "Law of God" that means "Law of Moses".

In John 14:15 Jesus is teaching before the Cross - the relationship between loving God and obeying God's commandments.

He takes a quote from the Ten Commandments about "those who Love Me and Keep My Commandments" Exodus 20:6 that would be well known to His listeners. Then then says "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15. (Same thing again in John 15:14)

He makes the same case between the claim to have a relationship with God and actual obedience to God in Matt 7 saying "Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven" -- that is to say - not everyone who claims to have that relationship with God will enter.

And this is where Paul is coming from in Romans 2:13-16 making the same point as Christ.

Let's see if what your are saying here is the context.


If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Do you think this refers to keeping the ten commandments or does this refer to Jesus obeying His Father's voice,

God spoke with His own voice at Sinai as I am sure we will all agree.

Jesus never argues an either-or doctrine of the form "either obey scripture or listen to Me" - His argument is always that the "Word of God cannot be broken" and that Mankind lives by every word from the mouth of God.

The opposition between scripture and God - does not exist in Christ's teaching.

In fact in Matt 5 He addresses the entire notion that He ministry is to delete, downsize or abolish the scripture. He flatly condemns that idea.

Obeying His voice! Not Moses Law!

In Luke 16 Jesus teaches "if they do not Listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead". In John 5:46-47 Jesus said that those who reject Moses are truly rejecting Him.

That is because as Peter points out in 2Pet 1:20-21 "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from GOD" and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.

In Romans 2:13-16 we have "it is NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all makind" --

And the example given is the extreme case of Gentiles with no Bible at all who show the New Covenant promise of the Law written on the heart and mind. He compares them to Jews who DO have the Bible and yet are in rebellion against that very law.

He points out that the Gentiles will be accounted as Jews "for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but he is a Jew who is one inwardly" for circumcision is of the heart and is done by the Holy spirit.

Thus the Romans 2:13-16 scenario is every bit the Gospel that Paul declares it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[woodpecker]

What Hell-bound Christians Tell You: - YouTube

 

[JLB777]

In John 14:15 Jesus is teaching before the Cross - the relationship between loving God and obeying God's commandments.

He takes a quote from the Ten Commandments about "those who Love Me and Keep My Commandments" Exodus 20:6 that would be well known to His listeners. Then then says "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15. (Same thing again in John 15:14)

He makes the same case between the claim to have a relationship with God and actual obedience to God in Matt 7 saying "Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven" -- that is to say - not everyone who claims to have that relationship with God will enter.

And this is where Paul is coming from in Romans 2:13-16 making the same point as Christ.



God spoke with His own voice at Sinai as I am sure we will all agree.

Jesus never argues an either-or doctrine of the form "either obey scripture or listen to Me" - His argument is always that the "Word of God cannot be broken" and that Mankind lives by every word from the mouth of God.

The opposition between scripture and God - does not exist in Christ's teaching.

In fact in Matt 5 He addresses the entire notion that He ministry is to delete, downsize or abolish the scripture. He flatly condemns that idea.




In Luke 16 Jesus teaches "if they do not Listen to Moses - neither will they listen though one rises from the dead". In John 5:46-47 Jesus said that those who reject Moses are truly rejecting Him.

That is because as Peter points out in 2Pet 1:20-21 "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from GOD" and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God.

In Romans 2:13-16 we have "it is NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all makind" --

And the example given is the extreme case of Gentiles with no Bible at all who show the New Covenant promise of the Law written on the heart and mind. He compares them to Jews who DO have the Bible and yet are in rebellion against that very law.

He points out that the Gentiles will be accounted as Jews "for he is not a Jew who is one outwardly... but he is a Jew who is one inwardly" for circumcision is of the heart and is done by the Holy spirit.

Thus the Romans 2:13-16 scenario is every bit the Gospel that Paul declares it to be.

in Christ,

Bob

In Romans 2:13-16 we have "it is NOT the hearers of the Law that are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justiFIED... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all makind" --

No sir, what you quoted is not Romans 2:13-16, you ONLY quoted verse 13.

Paul is saying you are justified IF you do ALL of the law, only ONE was a doer of ALL the law.

You take verse 13 totally out of context.

Furthermore, you left out the verse's that show what Paul is getting at!


12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. 17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, "Do not commit adultery," do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

All have sinned and come short brother.

The Law was added UNTIL ...

Meaning it was temporary to those who choose Christ.

Now the Law Abraham walked in is not the Law of Moses.

JLB

 

[JLB777]

I think the law should be kept, as long as Jesus is Lord, and not merely just a prophet, saviour or son of God. When Jesus becomes God to a seeker, then keeping the law becomes relevant, but people without Jesus have no need for the law. God the Father isn't impressed with anything other than His son Jesus Christ's shed blood.

I think the law should be kept, as long as Jesus is Lord,

Could you clarify what you mean by this statement above.

I would like to hear your thoughts on "keeping" the Law.

Thanks JLB

 

[woodpecker]

this is what God expects from His child saved by the blood of Jesus:
========

Micah 6
6 What can we bring to the Lord?

What kind of offerings should we give him?

Should we bow before God
with offerings of yearling calves?

7 Should we offer him thousands of rams
and ten thousand rivers of olive oil?

Should we sacrifice our firstborn children
to pay for our sins?

8 no , O people, the Lord has told you what is good,
and this is what he requires of you:

to do what is right, to love mercy,
and to walk humbly with your God.
========

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”

 

[woodpecker]

Jesustheonlyway: "So to conclude, I do believe we must keep the law for salvation, yes, because Jesus by his own admission is a fulfillment of the law. Jesus is part of the law. Jesus gives life to the law. You cannot have one without the other. Such a faith becomes shipwreck and good for nothing. Anathama"
========

what did Jesus say about the Law....

Matthew 22
36 “Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?”

37 Jesus replied, “‘You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind. 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.

39 A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

40 The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.”
==========

if we as Christian live as Jesus taught, love God, love our neighbors, we are fulfilling the entire law.

Jesus gives us salvation, then commands us to follow Him, we can not just go on living our lives as like those in unbelief, we must follow the commands given above, or there may come a time when you meet Christ and He may say to you, "I never knew you":o

 

[JLB777]

The church having also been overrun by zionists like the nation of isreal did a divide and sent its real christians into exile and death. Many are still suffering the consequences of the crusaders. Israel suffered at the hands of hitler communism and confucionism. And yet Jews and Christains are said to be one in the same. Which would explain why militant muslims, decendants of the nations of canaan baal and moloch hate us just as much as the Jews.

Many protestants did not like the idea of how the Roman Catholic Church had political influence, and so they too wanted to become political. Fake protestants and fake catholics murdered many innocent people as per the greatest desure of all zionists, exterminating us like rats. Shame.

Colonialism, war on terror and slavery were used by the zionists to create tremendous hatred and racism between the people of earth, and many mechanisms designed to 'distract' us from the gospel, which is in short:

Believe on Jesus Christ that he is God AND Messiah.

Keep the Law... Ie. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength our neighbour as our selves... Don't be fake. Don't be nominal. Don't use excuses to commit sin. Cut sin off. Crucify sin. Don't accept sin. Full stop. A total proliferation of OT into the NT. NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER.

Keeping the law is still required along with worshipping Messiah God. You can't simply have one without the other.

You shall know them by their fruits. What about us? We shall know ourselves by our fruits, if we are children of God. Keep God's law. Don't be a lamo in other words. Jesus is not something new. Abraham knew Jesus along with samuel, jacob, joseph, alijah, ezekial, jeremiah, zadok, saul, david along with many other of our ancestors that Jesus is God and Saviour.

Yet one thing did change. The Messiah God had a face now. He came to Earth. There was no longer a need to use the arc, tablets, bible or temple to represent him. He came and with him dispenced his Holy Spirit to all of us, making us all priests in Jesus. The jew-christian temple ritual was replaced by the permanent possession of the Holy Spirit making us his and he becomes ours.

The debate then becomes whether the ghost can be chased out of us by much evil. I tend to think it can, but bottom line is I am as much a Jew as I am a Christian. Keeping the law with this new representation Jesus of Nazareth is absolutely important in strengthening ones faith and salvation.

And with Jesus' appearance he left us his funny awesome way of dealing with the law, fake-zionists and helping one another.

So to conclude, I do believe we must keep the law for salvation, yes, because Jesus by his own admission is a fulfilment of the law. Jesus is part of the law. Jesus gives life to the law. You cannot have one without the other. Such a faith becomes shipwreck and good for nothing. Anathama

Dude, far out man. Like totally!

 

[bugkiller]

Hi Disciple1,

Welcome to the Forum.

Now that the law has led us to Christ, are we now free to break the law?


JLB

Did the law do its job?

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, I Tim

Who are the righteous?

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Gal 5

What is the Christian to follow?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Those are some great verses. Thank you for sharing them with me.

Now, could you please answer my question.


Now that the law has led us to Christ, are we now free to break the law?


JLB

One must first be subject to something to violate it.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Hi Disciple1,

Welcome to the Forum.

Now that the law has led us to Christ, are we now free to break the law?


JLB

Are you really asking if the Christian is free to sin with impunity?

There is no law against the behaviour of the Christian.


22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Gal 5

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Pretty confusing, what is meant by "law" here?

Generally speaking the 10 Cs. Some also include other parts of the law found in the first 5 books of the OT which are called the law and other names.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The law that led us to Christ.

If you want more than that, ask the person who wrote it. Or read Galatians 3:23-25.

Disciple1 wrote -

The law that led us to Christ.

JLB

Interesting quote. I like the part that says we are no longer under (ogligated to) the supervision of the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

So according to your understanding...God gave His people A Law that is impossible to keep, then punished them for not keeping it?

That is exactly what Romans 11:32 states.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Lord gave the animals to make atonement for the transgression of breaking the Law. So when they did not keep the Law, the innocent animals would pay the price for there sin.

Therefore God punished the innocent animalsfor the transgression, not the people.

This would teach them, as a tutor for the purpose of leading them to Christ.

God gave them the Law to show them they needed a Savior, not to punish them.

JLB

That is an utterly amazing statement. If there is no punishment to the violator it has no value. Remember the man that picked up sticks on the sabbath? He and his whole family were stoned to death.

bugkiller