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Why do people try to obey the law when it's not possible

disciple1

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1 John chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
 
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SAAN

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1 John chapter 1 verse 8 If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10 If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point there guilty of breaking all of it.
Galatians chapter 3 verses 24,25,23
So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law before this faith came we were held prisoners by the law locked up until faith should be revealed.:clap:

But should we not try to obey God though? And Im not referring to the Mosaic Covenant, more so the commands that carried over and expanded into the new Covenant.
 
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LarryP2

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Christians are no more capable of understanding and obeying the Jewish Law than they are capable of building a rocket and flying to Saturn. Here's why:

"Then Paul said: ‘I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.’" Acts 22:3 NIV

The "Law" that Gamalel would have taught Paul included the Oral Talmud. That is exactly how the Talmud was transferred down through history until it was put in writing about 200 AD.

NOWHERE does either Jesus or Paul condemn the Oral Talmud. Since Paul was trained as a Pharisee by Gamalel, who was also a Pharisee, it is important to note Paul's views on the Oral Talmud:

"The most important of the three were the Pharisees because they are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism. Their main distinguishing characteristic was a belief in an Oral Law that God gave to Moses at Sinai along with the Torah. The Torah, or Written Law, was akin to the U.S. Constitution in the sense that it set down a series of laws that were open to interpretation. The Pharisees believed that God also gave Moses the knowledge of what these laws meant and how they should be applied. This oral tradition was codified and written down roughly three centuries later in what is known as the Talmud."
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/sadducees_pharisees_essenes.html

Are you getting it? Much of the Torah was given to Moses orally and passed down orally through the centuries. Christians usually think that the Talmud is "silly" and "irrational," but I can assure you that Paul would disagree: The Oral Torah is something no Jewish legal scholar would call "Silly." The Talmud plainly was a necessary part of the "Law." Nobody trained in the Law like Paul was would think otherwise. How could they? The Talmud contained much of the oral Torah given to Moses. It was not written down until 200 AD. None of it is in the Christian Old Testament, which makes it absolutely impossible to understand the Law as anything other than the "shadows" and prophecies pointing to Christ. There is no chance whatsoever that you can understand the law, or follow it without the Oral Talmud. And THAT, unfortunately, is not in your Old Testament. And why isn't it? Because the Early Fathers knew that Christians weren't bound by the Law, so had no need of understanding or following it. The Mosaic Law is a complete and utter waste of time for Christians. It has NOTHING to do with Christianity. They included what was important for Christians: The prophecies, history and law that pointed to Christ. And so you have at BEST a small part of the Mosaic Law. You have no way of understanding or following it. What is there is just enough to give historical context to Jesus Christ.

One of the WORST things a Christian can do is to urge that the Mosaic Law still applies. Our Old Testament contains maybe 5 percent of what is meant by the Mosaic Law! The vast, overwhelming majority of the Torah was oral that never made it into our Old Testament. And vast parts of that Talmud are the orally-transmitted Torah that was not written down until the second century. We were given enough of the Law and the Torah to understand that Christ was the fulfillment of both the Law and Prophecy. Outside of that limited use, our Old Testament is so deficient and scanty it is utterly useless. The Old Testament is not a Mosaic law primer. It is a simple history book, that recites a simple history that predicted and prophesied Jesus Christ. It gives us the "inside story" of God's dealing with the Israelite Tribe that Jesus Christ would one day be born in. The Law was to completely separate the Israelites from all other nations, so that there would be no mistaking things when Christ arrived. Christ and Christianity had the OPPOSITE goal of what the Law did: it was to completely reunite all of the nations of the world under Christ. It was to allow Gentile world to be on equal footing with the Jews. It was designed to get an outline of how the Old and New Covenants worked, and compared and contrasted them.

The vast majority of Christians simply have no capacity to understand the law or how it works. Christians should take Paul's outright and complete rejection of the Mosaic Law on behalf of Christians as a gift and run with it and be exceedingly grateful! That is ALL you are probably capable of understanding anyway.

Christians who fall for the Ebionite/Judaizing heresies have been severely handicapped in two ways: They have a delusional and unhistorical view of the Law, and they have never been taught pure Christianity the way it has been taught for 2,000 years. They have not the slightest clue about either Christianity or the Law. These are people who think a "history book" is the Great Controversy. I won't go into the massive and irreparable fatal defects of that book, but needless to say, you have been taught nothing remotely resembling the reality of either Christianity or the Old Testament Law.

Christians cannot understand the law, because they have never even THOUGHT about the entire law. You have never even HEARD about the full law. For you to get up on enough speed on the law to even have an intelligent conversation about it would probably take at least 3 years. And all three years would be spent studying things that never made it into the Bible.

There are Rabbis that have spent 50 years of their life, studying 20 hours a day, just to get a handle on the Sabbath. THAT is what it takes to understand and comprehend the law, and to follow it.

Nobody that blogs on this website has the time or will to do such a thing.

"But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." Galatians 3:23-26

Its a Gift. Take it an run as fast as you can away from the Seventh Day Adventists - the modern day version of the Galatians, Judaizing and Ebionite Heresies - that are trying to enslave you into something that is completely obsolete. And something you can never dream of doing.
 
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SAAN

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Jesus canceled my sin and therefore I've none. GLORY!!!!!


But you still need grace for the occasional sins you will make from time to time, even after you got saved. As much as we will try to live up to Gods word, we will still slip up as we are human.
 
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LarryP2

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But you still need grace for the occasional sins you will make from time to time, even after you got saved. As much as we will try to live up to Gods word, we will still slip up as we are human.

Not "occasionally" do we sin. We sin "constantly." That is PRECISELY why Grace is hands-down FAR more superior than the creaky and decrepit Mosaic Law it replaced.

The Law and Grace do NOT mix. They are oil and water. There is no crossover and no mixing possible. To the extent you try to keep ANY part of the Law, you are that much further away from Grace.
 
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SAAN

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Not "occasionally" do we sin. We sin "constantly." That is PRECISELY why Grace is hands-down FAR more superior than the creaky and decrepit Mosaic Law it replaced.

The Law and Grace do NOT mix. They are oil and water. There is no crossover and no mixing possible. To the extent you try to keep ANY part of the Law, you are that much further away from Grace.


I agree and disagree

I disagree with "To the extent you try to keep ANY part of the Law, you are that much further away from Grace"

IF that is true, then me not stealing, lieing, killing, coveting, not commuting sexually immoral acts puts me far away from grace.
 
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LarryP2

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I agree and disagree

I disagree with "To the extent you try to keep ANY part of the Law, you are that much further away from Grace"

IF that is true, then me not stealing, lieing, killing, coveting, not commuting sexually immoral acts puts me far away from grace.

Your not doing those things is likely a result your upbringing and habits built up over many years. NOT because you were thinking about or being guided by the law at the time.

REALLY? Were you REALLY only "not stealing, lying, killing, coveting, committing sexual acts" merely because the law prohibits them? REALLY? Do you constantly have to remind yourself each day and every hour upon hour: "Today, I will not kill anyone, for the Ten Commandments forbid it?" " I will not rape anyone, only because that would violate the Ten Commandments?"

Given that the Noahide Laws also prohibit all of those things, it seems unlikely that the Ten Commandments are the ONLY thing keeping you from doing such things.

I would suggest the REAL reason you refrain from doing those things is NOT because the law forbids them, but because your relationship with Grace has completely removed any inclination to do them.

BTW, I have a nice quote to respond to one of your earlier contentions that the Pope changed "Saturday to Sunday" in the 300 AD century. Here is the problem that Seventh Day Adventism's own theologian Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi presents to Ellen White's delusional theory:

"The time has come to call “bluff” in the game the Seventh-day Adventist Church has been playing with the Sabbath problem since the Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi fiasco began in the 1970’s. His 1977 book,
From Sabbath to Sunday,rejected both Adventist teachings that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:14-17 was not a reference to the Weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue and the idea that the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. In the place of these two traditional SDA defenses, he introduced two highly imaginative theories to replace them. With two of the most important traditional pillars of SDA Sabbath defenses rejected and biblically invalidated by the Church’s very own Sabbath scholar, it became clear to a few thinking Adventist theologians, pastors, and teachers that the validity of Sabbatarianism now rests on whether Dr. Bacchiocchi’s“replacement” theories provide a Biblically sound substitute.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/47752412/Dr-Bacchiocchi-the-Sabbath-and-the-Writings-of-Paul-Kerry-Wynne

Read the article. It demolishes everything you have said about Sunday worship on these threads.
 
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parsonsmom

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Your not doing those things is likely a result your upbringing and habits built up over many years. NOT because you were thinking about or being guided by the law at the time.

REALLY? Were you REALLY only "not stealing, lying, killing, coveting, committing sexual acts" merely because the law prohibits them? REALLY? Do you constantly have to remind yourself each day and every hour upon hour: "Today, I will not kill anyone, for the Ten Commandments forbid it?" " I will not rape anyone, only because that would violate the Ten Commandments?"

Given that the Noahide Laws also prohibit all of those things, it seems unlikely that the Ten Commandments are the ONLY thing keeping you from doing such things.

I would suggest the REAL reason you refrain from doing those things is NOT because the law forbids them, but because your relationship with Grace has completely removed any inclination to do them.

BTW, I have a nice quote to respond to one of your earlier contentions that the Pope changed "Saturday to Sunday" in the 300 AD century. Here is the problem that Seventh Day Adventism's own theologian Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi presents to Ellen White's delusional theory:

"The time has come to call “bluff” in the game the Seventh-day Adventist Church has been playing with the Sabbath problem since the Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi fiasco began in the 1970’s. His 1977 book,
From Sabbath to Sunday,rejected both Adventist teachings that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:14-17 was not a reference to the Weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue and the idea that the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. In the place of these two traditional SDA defenses, he introduced two highly imaginative theories to replace them. With two of the most important traditional pillars of SDA Sabbath defenses rejected and biblically invalidated by the Church’s very own Sabbath scholar, it became clear to a few thinking Adventist theologians, pastors, and teachers that the validity of Sabbatarianism now rests on whether Dr. Bacchiocchi’s“replacement” theories provide a Biblically sound substitute.

Dr. Bacchiocchi, the Sabbath, and the Writings of Paul - Kerry Wynne

Read the article. It demolishes everything you have said about Sunday worship on these threads.

Is this a closed discussion?
 
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SAAN

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Your not doing those things is likely a result your upbringing and habits built up over many years. NOT because you were thinking about or being guided by the law at the time.

REALLY? Were you REALLY only "not stealing, lying, killing, coveting, committing sexual acts" merely because the law prohibits them? REALLY? Do you constantly have to remind yourself each day and every hour upon hour: "Today, I will not kill anyone, for the Ten Commandments forbid it?" " I will not rape anyone, only because that would violate the Ten Commandments?"

Given that the Noahide Laws also prohibit all of those things, it seems unlikely that the Ten Commandments are the ONLY thing keeping you from doing such things.

I would suggest the REAL reason you refrain from doing those things is NOT because the law forbids them, but because your relationship with Grace has completely removed any inclination to do them.

BTW, I have a nice quote to respond to one of your earlier contentions that the Pope changed "Saturday to Sunday" in the 300 AD century. Here is the problem that Seventh Day Adventism's own theologian Dr. Samuele Bacchiochi presents to Ellen White's delusional theory:

"The time has come to call “bluff” in the game the Seventh-day Adventist Church has been playing with the Sabbath problem since the Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi fiasco began in the 1970’s. His 1977 book,
From Sabbath to Sunday,rejected both Adventist teachings that the Sabbath of Colossians 2:14-17 was not a reference to the Weekly Sabbath of the Decalogue and the idea that the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. In the place of these two traditional SDA defenses, he introduced two highly imaginative theories to replace them. With two of the most important traditional pillars of SDA Sabbath defenses rejected and biblically invalidated by the Church’s very own Sabbath scholar, it became clear to a few thinking Adventist theologians, pastors, and teachers that the validity of Sabbatarianism now rests on whether Dr. Bacchiocchi’s“replacement” theories provide a Biblically sound substitute.

Dr. Bacchiocchi, the Sabbath, and the Writings of Paul - Kerry Wynne

Read the article. It demolishes everything you have said about Sunday worship on these threads.


Why dont we lie, steal, kill, etc...because they were commands in the bible the make up our morality. Thats is what separate you from the world is your faith in God and your obedience to him.
 
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LarryP2

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Why dont we lie, steal, kill, etc...because they were commands in the bible the make up our morality. Thats is what separate you from the world is your faith in God and your obedience to him.

WRONG!

If you are avoiding ANY of those things because an Old Testament Law commands it; as a Gentile you are obeying the Noahide Laws. The Ten Commandments never have been and never will be for the Gentiles.

Do you avoid speeding in your car in Florida because the laws of India or Turkey prohibit it? Well they do prohibit it, but that does not control what happens in Florida. There is no need to get out your iphone and look up Brazil's speeding laws. The law of Florida is what determines whether you are speeding or not. They put signs up.

Millions on millions of Gentiles lived among the Jews in Palestine over many centuries, but there is not ONE SINGLE mention of a Gentile anywhere in the Bible keeping the Sabbath!

Breaking the Sabbath was punished with stoning. Here you have ALL of these millions of Gentiles breaking the Sabbath every single week and never getting stoned for it. To the contrary, if they were to TRY and KEEP the Sabbath, the Mosaic law pitilessly called for the death penalty. I have proven that MANY times on these forums and NEVER has that been disproven.

Smart Gentiles did not keep the Sabbath. Gentiles did not keep the Sabbath, because Gentiles were and are smart.

99.99999999999 percent of all Christian theologians and Bible Scholars throughout history denounced Sabbath Keeping as a non-Christian heresy, and accepted that Christians worshiped on Sunday, or any other day they so chose.

Only one brain-damaged, pathological lying false prophet required Sabbath Keeping and required her gelded theologians to strain for weak-to-nonexistent support for the position.

It is worth billions of dollars a year for the Seventh Day Adventist church to justify Sabbath Keeping any way they can. It is a huge, colossal scam.
 
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VictorC

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Why dont we lie, steal, kill, etc...because they were commands in the bible the make up our morality. Thats is what separate you from the world is your faith in God and your obedience to him.
This is the same argument Paul encountered, and he addresses it in Romans 3:8. Please do not appeal to a fallacy that Scripture already condemned.

When God determined the first covenant's recipients to be disobedient to that covenant, we became guilty of the entire package (Romans 3:19). In God's eyes we are all liars, thieves, and murderers already. We are called to repentance from our former rebellion (see the context preceding 1 Corinthians 6:11), but nowhere are we placed back under the Law's jurisdiction God redeemed us from, for it is the Law that imputes sin by our transgression to that Law:
Romans 4:13-15
For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
 
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SAAN

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WRONG!

If you are avoiding ANY of those things because an Old Testament Law commands it; as a Gentile you are obeying the Noahide Laws. The Ten Commandments never have been and never will be for the Gentiles.

Do you avoid speeding in your car in Florida because the laws of India or Turkey prohibit it? Well they do prohibit it, but that does not control what happens in Florida. There is no need to get out your iphone and look up Brazil's speeding laws. The law of Florida is what determines whether you are speeding or not. They put signs up.

Millions on millions of Gentiles lived among the Jews in Palestine over many centuries, but there is not ONE SINGLE mention of a Gentile anywhere in the Bible keeping the Sabbath!

Breaking the Sabbath was punished with stoning. Here you have ALL of these millions of Gentiles breaking the Sabbath every single week and never getting stoned for it. To the contrary, if they were to TRY and KEEP the Sabbath, the Mosaic law pitilessly called for the death penalty. I have proven that MANY times on these forums and NEVER has that been disproven.

Smart Gentiles did not keep the Sabbath. Gentiles did not keep the Sabbath, because Gentiles were and are smart.

99.99999999999 percent of all Christian theologians and Bible Scholars throughout history denounced Sabbath Keeping as a non-Christian heresy, and accepted that Christians worshiped on Sunday, or any other day they so chose.

Only one brain-damaged, pathological lying false prophet required Sabbath Keeping and required her gelded theologians to strain for weak-to-nonexistent support for the position.

It is worth billions of dollars a year for the Seventh Day Adventist church to justify Sabbath Keeping any way they can. It is a huge, colossal scam.


I see what you are saying and I go to church every Sunday as I have my whole life, but in the last couple of years I have read through the bible and try to read it in context without all the indoctrination that has been pushed on Christianity by the Catholic Church through the years or the many verses taken out of context too and have wondered about the Sabbath.

I wont label Sabbath keeping as heresy, as it is a direct command from God, but:
Why is it only that command we do away with?
Was Jesus mission only to come to the earth just to abolish the Sabbath?
Why when people keep the Sabbath, Christians get super defensive?
If we know what the 1st day of the week is why do we pretend not to know when the 7th is?
And with all the false teaching passed down by Catholicism to Christianity, should we not question the Sat vs Sunday issue as well?

Me personally Im not 100% sold that after 6000yrs of history that Saturday, is the same 7th day of the week that it was back then. If you dont give someone a clock, there is no way possible that they will get the date right after a few weeks as people now dont even know what day of the week it is at times.

I personally think God just wants us to pick a day, but I could be wrong on that for all I know.
 
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LarryP2

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I see what you are saying and I go to church every Sunday as I have my whole life, but in the last couple of years I have read through the bible and try to read it in context without all the indoctrination that has been pushed on Christianity by the Catholic Church through the years or the many verses taken out of context too and have wondered about the Sabbath.

That is simply an outright lie dreamed up by Ellen White. The idea that the Catholic Church had ANYTHING to do with "indoctrination that has been pushed on Christianity" is blatantly untrue. Christian Sunday worship was universal by 100 AD, at least 300 years before the Catholic Church existed.

I wont label Sabbath keeping as heresy, as it is a direct command from God, but:

I will! In the First and Second Centuries, the Church fathers were UNANIMOUS that Sabbath Keeping was a satanic heresy that detracted from the Resurrection, which is and always has been Christianity's central doctrine.

Why is it only that command we do away with?
Was Jesus mission only to come to the earth just to abolish the Sabbath?
Why when people keep the Sabbath, Christians get super defensive?
If we know what the 1st day of the week is why do we pretend not to know when the 7th is?
And with all the false teaching passed down by Catholicism to Christianity, should we not question the Sat vs Sunday issue as well?

First and foremost, Christian Sunday worship being passed down "by Catholicism to Christianity" is an imaginative fairy tale dreamed up by Ellen White to steal 10 percent of her victim's money. It didn't happen. I have proven that ALL of the Ten Commandments were abolished. First and foremost, they never applied to Gentiles to begin with. Gentiles NEVER kept the Sabbath, before or after Christ. Jewish law featured the Death Penalty for Gentiles that kept the Sabbath. The First Day worship is all about the Resurrection, the most massive and incredible event in human history.

Me personally Im not 100% sold that after 6000yrs of history that Saturday, is the same 7th day of the week that it was back then. If you dont give someone a clock, there is no way possible that they will get the date right after a few weeks as people now dont even know what day of the week it is at times.

The Jews had no seven-day calendar! They set the Sabbaths by the stages of the moon. Seven Day Calendars did not happen for over a thousand more years AFTER the 10 Commandments were handed down at Sinai. So you are correct: Adventists have hilariously and embarrassingly NEVER kept anything remotely resembling the Sabbath of the Old Testament. Those deluded fools should be the laughingstock of the whole Christian world.

I personally think God just wants us to pick a day, but I could be wrong on that for all I know.

That's the first sensible thing you have said all day long. Sunday is only significant for Christians because of the Resurrection happening on that day. But there is no reason you cannot pick any day of the week you want. That is what Freedom in Christ means.
 
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