Why do people like Seventh-day Adventist and Adventist doctrine?

[BobRyan]

Do you know why Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites, why he said their yeast was hypocrisy?

hmmm let's try quoting Christ to answer that - from one of the many texts you are avoiding...


In that quote Jesus charges that no insult/diminish to God's commandments is allowed and it is THEY who are guilty of it - not Him

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

 

[stuart lawrence]

hmmm let's try quoting Christ to answer that - from one of the many texts you are avoiding...


In that quote Jesus charges that no insult/diminish to God's commandments is allowed and it is THEY who are guilty of it - not Him

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus words Concerning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees:
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you
But do not do what they do for they do not practice what they preach
Matt23:2&3

 

[stuart lawrence]

hmmm let's try quoting Christ to answer that - from one of the many texts you are avoiding...


In that quote Jesus charges that no insult/diminish to God's commandments is allowed and it is THEY who are guilty of it - not Him

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

BTW

Matt23:2&3 cannot refer to the traditions of men you quoted for the Pharisees concerning them did practice what they preached!!!

 

[stuart lawrence]

But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the NEW way of the Spirit and not the OLD way of the written code rom7:6

Paul speaking directly concerning the NC in respect of following after the Holy Spirit. He states the old way(OC)was following the written code/the law

Seventh day Adventists relentlessly stress the written code-as they do on this website, According to the person who wrote half the books of the NT, following the written code is following the old covenant, not the new one

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here is an example of me quoting someone else.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Do you agree with John or do you choose to condemn him?

When Jesus answers the question "[COLOR=#ff0000 WHICH COMMANDMENTS"[/COLOR] in Matt 19 -- do you condemn the teaching of Christ at that point ? or agree with Him?

in Christ,
Bob

You know bob, we all learn things as we go through life. One thing I have learned is. The more in earnest people are in linking obeying the law to justification for heaven, the least these people reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law in their lives. The more corrupted such people are on the inside. I'm afraid your above post simply echos that
It is in response to what I wrote to you concerning WHICH COMMANDS John was speaking of in 1John3:22. No matter how many times I quoted the following verse to prove which commands were being mentioned, you ignored it. You went to 1 John ch5 and then matt ch19 and claimed the TC were being spoken of in 1John3:22, asking if I condemn the teaching of Christ, and whether I condemn John.
If there is such a thing as an honest observer of this discussion they will have to admit you have tried to deliberately evade the plain answer as to which commands were specifically referred to in 1 john3:22. And while you did that you asked if i condemn the teaching of Christ, and condemn John. That is totally dishonest. And the more our conversation has gone on, the more you have acted this way.
All you have done is show you lost the debate, for this is always how people act who lose debates, and you have shown your true heart by acting this way:

Dear friends if our hearts do not condemn us we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask because we obey his commands/ ments and do what pleases him
AND THIS IS HIS COMMAND: To believe in the name of his son Jesus Christ and to love one another as he commanded us
1 John3:21-23

 

[BobRyan]

Here is an example of me quoting someone else.


Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), -- the 5th commandment in that still-valid "unit of ten" is the "FIRST commandment with a promise.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said,
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty


===========================
Here is another example of me quoting someone else.



Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Commandment of God = Word of God = Moses Said -- with example being a quote from the TEN commandments.




==================
Here is yet another example of me quoting someone else.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Do you agree with John or do you choose to condemn him?

When Jesus answers the question "which commandments" in Matt 19 -- do you condemn the teaching of Christ at that point ? or agree with Him?

You know bob, we all learn things as we go through life. One thing I have learned is. The more in earnest people are in linking obeying the law to justification for heaven, the least these people reflect what Christ termed the higher points of the law in their lives. The more corrupted such people are on the inside. I'm afraid your above post simply echos that

I believe you genuinely believe that. When I quote Christ or Paul - you view that as "corruption".

And there we differ my friend. Because I view it as "the WORD of God".

And here is the key point - so do most other Christians including non-Adventists.

So my question for you is - how is this helping you to go down that road??

It is in response to what I wrote to you concerning WHICH COMMANDS John was speaking of in 1John3:22.

Jesus is asked "WHICH Commandments" in Matt 19 -- are you aware of that?

What was Jesus' answer? do you know?

If you do know - do you think Jesus was in error?

No matter how many times I quoted the following verse to prove which commands were being mentioned, you ignored it.

Because as we all know John did not declare himself to be at war against Christ -- in 1 John 2 John insists that if one does not walk as Jesus walked - and yet claims to know Him - that person is a liar. That means you cannot take God's name in vain -- even though it is not in the text that you seem to imagine can be bent into the final-downsized-form of the entire Bible.

This has been stated a few dozen times already. And we both know that it is true.

All you have done is show you lost the debate, for this is always how people act who lose debates, and you have shown your true heart by acting thus way:

You have free will you can choose that sort of nonsense if you wish. But you probably should expect me to stick with the Word of God on this topic instead of going down that road.

Paul's letter to Timothy refer to those whose conscience is seared.
John 16:2 speaks of those who imagine that they serve God when breaking his commandments.

These are good warnings for all Christians. Right from the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[stuart lawrence]

Here is an example of me quoting someone else.


Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), -- the 5th commandment in that still-valid "unit of ten" is the "FIRST commandment with a promise.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said,
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty


===========================
Here is another example of me quoting someone else.



Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Commandment of God = Word of God = Moses Said -- with example being a quote from the TEN commandments.




==================
Here is yet another example of me quoting someone else.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Do you agree with John or do you choose to condemn him?

When Jesus answers the question "which commandments" in Matt 19 -- do you condemn the teaching of Christ at that point ? or agree with Him?




I believe you genuinely believe that. When I quote Christ or Paul - you view that as "corruption".

And there we differ my friend. Because I view it as "the WORD of God".

And here is the key point - so do most other Christians including non-Adventists.

So my question for you is - how is this helping you to go down that road??




Jesus is asked "WHICH Commandments" in Matt 19 -- are you aware of that?

What was Jesus' answer? do you know?

If you do know - do you think Jesus was in error?



Because as we all know John did not declare himself to be at war against Christ -- in 1 John 2 John insists that if one does not walk as Jesus walked - and yet claims to know Him - that person is a liar. That means you cannot take God's name in vain -- even though it is not in the text that you seek to use as a downsizing-of-the-Bible text.

This has been stated a few dozen times already. And we both know that it is true.





You have free will you can choose that sort of nonsense if you wish. But you probably should expect me to stick with the Word of God on this topic instead of going down that road.

Paul's letter to Timothy refer to those whose conscience is seared.
John 16:2 speaks of those who imagine that they serve God when breaking his commandments.

These are good warnings for all Christians. Right from the Word of God.

in Christ,

Bob

This conversation is over Bob.
It does not bother me the slightest bit how you now try and distort, or lie as to my beliefs.
You have simply shown my deep held beliefs to be the truth
Goodbye

 

[BobRyan]

Here is an example of me quoting someone else.


Eph 6: 2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), -- the 5th commandment in that still-valid "unit of ten" is the "FIRST commandment with a promise.

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

================ here I am quoting someone else again

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Commandment of God = Word of God = Moses Said -- with example being a quote from the TEN commandments.

Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment "is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid unique list of TEN

John 8 "40 Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, “We are not blind too, are we?” 41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains."

John 16:2 2 They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God.

. According to your belief if you don't obey the TC you prove you don't love God

Are you quoting 'you' -- or me?

Here is an example of me quoting someone else.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Do you agree with John or do you choose to condemn him?

When Jesus answers the question "which commandments" in Matt 19 -- do you condemn the teaching of Christ at that point ? or agree with Him?

==============

So now -- IGNORING EVERY text and every question that focuses on the details of the texts above ... we get this

Do you not believe if a person does not obey the TC this proves they do not love God therefore they are condemned?
A simple question that requires a simple answer

You pivot away from "The Bible texts" quoted... and circle back to trying to get 'the word of BobRyan" instead of dealing with "the Word of God" in the quotes above. That WAY even if all I do is say "I believe the Bible" your response will be "attack BobRyan's word".

Therefore - I am leaving you with the Word of God - if you reject it - how much more would you reject my own word?

This conversation is over Bob.

Indeed. The only "common ground" we had was the "Word of God" and once you choose to respond to it as we see in this case - well... clearly... "The conversation is over"

 

[stuart lawrence]

A general comment. The following are ALL still valid:

God wants you to love him with all your heart, body, soul strength and mind
God doesn't want you to build graven images with your hands/ tools, or to have them in your heart
God doesn't want you to take his name in vain.
God does not mind if you consider one day more holy/ sacred than another or whether you consider every day alike
God wants you to honour/ obey your parents.
God doesn't want you to murder, or even get angry with your brother.
God doesn't want you to look at a woman with lust in your eye, or to commit the act of adultery with a woman.
God does not want you to steal or bear false witness.
God does not want you to have impure thoughts/ lust or to covet / desire anything or anyone that is not yours to desire.
God wants you to love your enemies, love those who slander you, malign you, persecute you and steal from you.
And God desires so much more from you also.

God wants you to know you have no righteousness/ justification in his sight of observing the law:
Rom3:20, rom3:21&22, rom10:4, gal2:15-17, gal2:21, phil3:9

God wants you to know you must die to the law so you may live for him. He wants you to know you are released from the law and serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way( old covenant) of the written code/ law

 

[stuart lawrence]

God doesn't want you to boast
God doesn't want you to try and impress men.
God wants those who fast to let no one know they are fasting, only their Father in heaven should know.
God wants you to leap for joy when you are persecuted.
If someone steals any of your clothing, God wants you to give the thief more besides what he has stolen.
God wants you to do good deeds in secret, not in public to try and impress others

 

[stuart lawrence]

God doesn't want you to demand of others what you fail to live up to in your own life
Jesus reserved his harshest words for religious people who did that

 

[stuart lawrence]

James 2:8-12 are wonderful verses. One in particular is well worth bearing I mind:

For whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it
James 2:10

The only way you couldn't stumble at just one point is if you have attained sinless perfection. For when you stumble against the law you commit sin.

So, if you transgress the law at all, at just one point you are guilty of breaking all of it.

So its sinless perfection or you stand guilty of breaking the whole law.
Therefore if heaven is attained by obeying the TC, for this shows your love for God, you must perfectly obey that law or be guilty of breaking it all.
If you are seen as guilty of breaking it all, a justification of obeying the law is impossible.
Its always nice to see James2:10 quoted. No better example of the futility of seeking to be justified for heaven by observing the law

 

[BobRyan]

A general comment. The following are ALL still valid:

God wants you to love him with all your heart, body, soul strength and mind
God doesn't want you to build graven images with your hands/ tools, or to have them in your heart
God doesn't want you to take his name in vain.
God does not mind if you consider one day more holy/ sacred than another or whether you consider every day alike
God wants you to honour/ obey your parents.
God doesn't want you to murder, or even get angry with your brother.
God doesn't want you to look at a woman with lust in your eye, or to commit the act of adultery with a woman.
God does not want you to steal or bear false witness.
God does not want you to have impure thoughts/ lust or to covet / desire anything or anyone that is not yours to desire.
God wants you to love your enemies, love those who slander you, malign you, persecute you and steal from you.
And God desires so much more from you also.

God wants you to know you have no righteousness/ justification in his sight of observing the law:
Rom3:20, rom3:21&22, rom10:4, gal2:15-17, gal2:21, phil3:9

God wants you to know you must die to the law so you may live for him. He wants you to know you are released from the law and serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way( old covenant) of the written code/ law

And he wants you to know that the "Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus" Rev 14:12
AND he wants you to know that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
AND he wants you to know that "we do not nullify the LAW by our faith - in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
AND he wants you to know that under the NEW Covenant God "Writes His LAW on the HEART and MIND" Hebrews 8:6-10
AND he wants you to know that in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

ANd he want you to know that when comparing the lost with the saved only one group "does not and indeed CAN not submit to the LAW of God" Romans 8:4-9

So then it is "both AND" for the saints -- not "either or"

 

[stuart lawrence]

It is true in mark ch7 Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites for ignoring commandments whilst clinging to the traditions of men.
Which commandments did the Pharisees ignore?
Well Jesus mentioned the fith of course, but it went much further than that:

Woe to you Pharisees, for you give God a tenth of your mint rue, and all other kinds of garden herbs but you neglect the love of God
Luke 11:41

They neglected what mattered most, as do all who believe they will be justified by obeying the law
But the worst hypocrisy of the Pharisees can be found in the following:
Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You clean the outside of the cup and dish but inside they are full of greed and self indulgence
Matt23:25

Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and ed everything unclean
In the same way on the outside you appear to people as righteous, but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness
Matt23:27&28

Can you imagine these people. Demanding the people fully obey the law while they themselves didn't obey it on the inside. They looked righteous before men, but on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean.
Jesus reserved his harshest words for these people

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of couse John and Paul are consistent about what to do to live as God desires:

John tells us if we obey Gods commands we do what pleases him and may ask anything we like and God will grant it. John then says the commands we must follow are to believe in the name of Gods son and to love one another(1john3:22&23

Why didn't John mention the written code/ TC in those verses?

Paul tells us why when he references some of them. Its great to see scripture endorsing scripture:

The commandments: Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet and what ever other commandments there might be are summed up in this one rule: Love your neighbour as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbour, therefore love fulfills the law
Rom13:9&10

Ah so Paul agrees with john, love others to live as God desires, for as Paul says, you are released from the law

More confirmation?
How does Paul say we fulfill Christs law?
By looking to the written code/ letter of Christs commandments?
Oh no, Paul echoes Rom ch13

Carry each others burdens( love them) and so FULFILL the law of Christ
Gal6:2

 

[stuart lawrence]

Jesus said:

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you
Matt7:2

Can you imagine what will happen on judgement day to people who insist you must obey the TC to attain heaven.
Hope they perfectly obeyed them!!!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why did Paul say the offence of the cross was not preaching law? Gal5:11

If you remove a justification/ righteousness of observing the law, boasting I cut out!

And sadly many want to believe they will attain heaven by being good enough under the law. It is futile of course, the pass mark is too high, but it doesn't stop people trying.
When people relentlessly tell you:
You must obey the law to attain heaven, are they not saying?
Look at me, I obey the law, you must reach the standard I have achieved.
You cant give God all the glory if you believe your best efforts to be good enough will attain you to heaven.
And God demands all the glory, he will share it with no man

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course, there seems to be a wide divergence of view as to what it means to have the law written on your mind and placed on your heart. Some appear to believe you don't have to be aware of what that law is, for they say you can sin without belong conscious you do so. As sin is transgression of the law, you obviously need to know the law to be conscious of sin.
Strange how some must believe the law written on your mind and placed on your heart doesn't bring you awareness of that law.
Of course by it being put there you in your heart want to live as God desires you to, you want to live in accordance with the law placed in your most inward parts. That law remains with you all your life. It is part of your dna so to speak.
Though for people who don't know what law I it becomes a problem, for then they have a licence to sin.
God did not make a covenant That gave anyone such a licence

 

[stuart lawrence]

Of course the Christian who understands the truth doesn't look to the written code of the law placed within them for obedience, for scripture tells us under the NC we are released from the law/ written code. The christian looks to Christ.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Obedience comes from faith( rom1:5)

And of course Paul tells us the law is not based on faith Gal5:12