Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

[Servant.DujmovJr]

Hello Steve. Seeking God about so many things. I've been too busy to do justice to all things. One comment about "prosperity teachings"...

The point is supernatural provision by supernatural hearing without natural censors getting in the way. I see this as a long way away from being concerned about what some group did to give it a bad name. Not even worth mentioning really. If we don't believe in supernatural provision, we limit God's work in our lives. We can be poor and content, but apart from a season in your life to pass God's tests, I don't see this meeting a lot of financial needs or providing for the message getting out.

Does this sound reasonable to you? I'm not knocking your perspective, but want to enlarge it to accommodate a big God doing big things for a lot of people without fear getting in the way.

Hey, Alive Again, I like the way you think

If prosperity really meant God could tell His children to give anything they had and still have faith for their own needs, in time, their would be a whole lot more rejoicing going on! Where we often are, any voice saying to give like this might kick in the cares of this world and our supernatural giving (and receiving) gets choked at the starting gate.

You must be able to type really good
I don't type so well; so my I post are usually a bit shorter. If I post a long thread I have to type it off-line.
The things you are saying I agree with whole heartedly.
Maybe you misunderstood what I was trying to say or I didn't say it clearly enough.
I believe in God wanting us to prosper. It is the way that it is sought after and the way that it is taught by some.
I was giving an answer to the reason that some people, christians and laymen, are against prospety teaching; it is the seed of greed that has been sown by the enemy.
The things you offer to me are like, the preacher preaching to the choir. I too believe that the enemy uses the church whenever he can.
It is not that I don't believe in prosperity; I don't like the way it is sought after and I don't like the way many who live by it look down on those who do not have the understanding, strength or desire to do the same. Some are able to eat meat while others are still nursing on milk. We (the body of Christ) should have compassion for them.
The things I do not like about prosperity teachings are; the confussion and deciet sown by the enemy. Those who teach and live by it should be aware of this and not fall into the trap of covetousness. It's because of the enemy twisting the hearts of the faithful that gives prosperity teaching a bad rep.
I understand that if you are prosperous you are better equipped to further the gospel. However, that is not everyones calling. We all have different gifts, callings and purposes.
If someone is poor and happy that does not necessarily mean that they are being decieved by the enemy into poverity. Some are, and should be, content with such things as the Lord provides; without seeking more.
I enjoyed your reply,
Peace unto you
Steve

 

[Zeek]

Just to add my 2cts....I do not really agree with your take on finance/tithing Alive-Again, although I certainly appreciate the time and effort of your post that gives clarification to some of the things that concern me, in the same way SD has stated.

I find with much of the so-called prosperity teaching I have heard...(and I have had John Avanzini teach at our Congregation, and had it followed up with several teaching sessions from a colleague of his....plus constant teaching from our Pastor etc) makes such a deal out of it, that anyone who does not seek to test G-d and their faith and get to prospering...is in a way somewhat side-lined, as their life-style lacks the seal of G-ds blessing in this area.

I believe it is an over-emphasis that has got a bit out of hand...and because it has a supernatural spiritual application, and doesn't make sense in worldly terms, this is used to endorse the teaching, and can be ethereal and nebulous while sounding rather plausible.

On top of that, as I have mentioned in the few posts I have been involved in, I also have strong misgivings about the whole tithes and offerings concept as it is currently taught in some segments of the Body...the sowing and reaping principle, and the belief that when you give...you can expect a financial bonus, and that your giving is a financial investment....I just don't see it in Scripture.

I totally agree about G-d desiring to bless us at all levels, but regarding finance it is generally through more proven means than the (IMO) quasi-mystical approach that is open to abuse, confusion, disappointment, heart-ache and condemnation that stems from inadvertently chasing Mammon.

 

[Alive_Again]

Just to add my 2cts....I do not really agree with your take on finance/tithing Alive-Again...

Don't just agree with my take. Agree with the Word's take. The whole point of my earlier post was that I hated to see someone end up with a take on "prosperity" that had the bad taste the devil puts on things as he is the crappy salt of the Earth. The kind that is useless and good for nothing but to be thrown out.

It's important to be open. If the Word says "give", then give. If it says sow and you'll reap in like kind, that's what it means. You don't give to get, but if the Word says to be obedient and give, then God will do His part and bless you. It's all about the heart. God doesn't owe us anything. The obedience He blesses is cheerful giving. It's the kind that says that His system is bigger than the worlds. It's the system that agrees that when you don't have a lot of savings and God moves on you to give to someone really in need, that your Father will back you up.

What's important to remember is that without faith it is impossible to please God. If you hear this scripture and have a bad taste like "prosperity" you can bet the enemy did his thing on your mind. So if we are to have faith (I'm not saying you're not.), then your actions and words must be in agreement with your faith.

Like all N.T. teachings, it is not of the world and must be taught. If it is uncomfortable, that usually means their is a stronghold to be set free from. God wants you to be free indeed.

...that anyone who does not seek to test G-d and their faith and get to prospering...is in a way somewhat side-lined, as their life-style lacks the seal of G-ds blessing in this area.

If you need to, I'm sure God will allow you to have according to your faith (another bedrock scripture). This is no slight, but it is the Word. You can be richly blessed and suffer financial lack. I believe one of the churches in Revelation fit this description. It doesn't mean that you have to be poor.

Although we're all supposed to preach to our world, there are those who are called to really go out into it with the gospel (full time) and there are those who are designated to give to the poor and it takes money to do that. If the enemy can distract believers into thinking like someone who isn't an heir to everything, then many needs will not be met.

On the other hand, if people's hearts are right and their faith is right and they are givers, God will open up the windows of Heaven. It's not just for them, but for others.

I believe it is an over-emphasis that has got a bit out of hand...and because it has a supernatural spiritual application, and doesn't make sense in worldly terms

There is a ditch on both sides of the road. People for so long believed in poverty and that is a lie. We shouldn't really be offended or have a bad taste about anything or any doctrine of the Word because those things are not our meditation. All of the pure and lovely things (this especially includes provision and giving) keeps our spirits sweet.

On top of that, as I have mentioned in the few posts I have been involved in, I also have strong misgivings about the whole tithes and offerings concept

We're not under Law, but it is scriptural to honor God with a tithe. Abraham met "Mel" soon after he redeemed Lot and his camp. Others got some extra booty. Want to imitate God's friend? Tithe! If you don't do it cheerfully you might as well not do it at all.

 

[Zeek]

Hello Alive,

No problem with most of those replies, just two things I pick up on.

1. The idea that if you sow in kind you reap in kind...presumably you are also implying if you sow finances you will reap finances?

2. The whole terminology and concept of Tithing does not seem to have its roots in Abram (as he then was), because that seems to be reaching and can hardly be linked either to what the Old Covenant tithe/tax was, or what some might regard as a New Covenant teaching.

That is why I think it is important to move away from unsupportable teachings on tithes and offerings, and actually impart up to date relevant teachings on finance in the KoG...I don't think Paul used it as mystical, or made a big 'faith' issue out of it....simply giving from a generous heart, to support those in ministry, helping our brethren and generally using finance unselfishly and wisely.

I thought you were spot on with the ditch analogy, and many have had a poverty mentality, which is a pretty unhelpful mindset and creates unnatural restrictions in many areas.

In Messiah. Zazal

 

[Optimax]

Where finances are, consider this;

The word does not say that money is a seed that is to be sown.

The Bible tells us that the seed the sower sows in the word.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

Where finances are, consider this;

The word does not say that money is a seed that is to be sown.

The Bible tells us that the seed the sower sows in the word.

Check the context of 2 Corinthians 9. Direct connection of money to sowing seed.

I'm not saying you are wrong about the Word being a seed, but in Scripture, the seed can also represent financial needs.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

'That is why I think it is important to move away from unsupportable teachings on tithes and offerings...'

Robert Morris and The Blessed Life. An EXCELLENT study on the issue of tithes and offerings and how we should be doing that today. Excellent word.

 

[Alive_Again]

For everyone's edification...

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness. 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2 Cor 9:6-11 (KJV)

I can only say that is scriptural. We give under grace out of relationship not to receive something. God's friend did it. They did it in Law. Jesus receives tithes in the New Testament (Hebrews). Actually, it's tithes AND offerings. It's supernatural giving.

If you feel you're under Law I guess you could back off what you feel are dead works until you were established in His righteousness. (I don't want to be guilty of telling you to disregard the Word, because I believe Jesus made it pretty clear (in the Spirit personally).

After that, it's a joy to be a liberal giver and although I used to tithe, I'm completely different now and it's a joy. God's got angels who record your thoughts during your offerings. It's part of your memorial in Heaven.

 

[HolySpiritWOF]

'That is why I think it is important to move away from unsupportable teachings on tithes and offerings...'

Robert Morris and The Blessed Life. An EXCELLENT study on the issue of tithes and offerings and how we should be doing that today. Excellent word.

hi Jedi,
what would you say are some of the best highlights of Robert Morris's book?

i love hearing about prosperity from WOFers...especially WOFers that are walking the prosperity walk because of their diligent application of WORD prosperity principles......and extra extra especially if they had been in financial difficulty before they caught and walked the WORD prosperity principles....i really enjoy the perspective true WOFers have on the WORD....it is so powerful and so life changing !!!!

GOD BLESS you Jedi

 

[HolySpiritWOF]

For everyone's edification...

6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness. 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
2 Cor 9:6-11 (KJV)

I can only say that is scriptural. We give under grace out of relationship not to receive something. God's friend did it. They did it in Law. Jesus receives tithes in the New Testament (Hebrews). Actually, it's tithes AND offerings. It's supernatural giving.

If you feel you're under Law I guess you could back off what you feel are dead works until you were established in His righteousness. (I don't want to be guilty of telling you to disregard the Word, because I believe Jesus made it pretty clear (in the Spirit personally).

After that, it's a joy to be a liberal giver and although I used to tithe, I'm completely different now and it's a joy. God's got angels who record your thoughts during your offerings. It's part of your memorial in Heaven.

excellent and thorough explanations Alive Again !
love your understanding of Scripture !
good stuff !
GOD BLESS you !

 

[mmmtacos]

Sorry if I did not read the entire thread. I'm new as of today here. I'm not current on all the threads yet and I don't have time to read the hundreds of pages it would take to do so..

When it comes to money ppl's hearts are laid bare, I think. I find it odd that critics of the church say that "all they want is you money" when that statement is more a revealing of that person's covetous heart than an indictment of a particular church.

All Walmart wants is your money, but I don't hear them complaining about that

I think there are those who greedily fell for the scam thinking that they could be rich if they gave a lot of money. Again it is their own heart that is laid bare.

I used to think it sad that the worst critics of any church teaching are other believers. I was reading over at "Rapture Ready" forum yesterday. The most critical, backbitting, and defensive bunch of christians I ever saw.

But I think the root cause of resistance to Prosperity is poverty of the soul. Ppl believe certain things about money, healing, relationships,and it nullifies the Word in their hearts.

I'm rambling I should stop now

 

[Alive_Again]

I used to think it sad that the worst critics of any church teaching are other believers.

I agree! People get flies in their ointment. Most Christians in the world are not renewed and walk carnally. They get judgmental spirits by speaking unrighteous judgment on other Christians. They speak unrighteously about political leaders.

Realistically, we partake of the things we enter into. If you watch late night monologues on worldly TV you often end up partaker in other men's sins as they speak in judgment against "dignities". Our lives are a "piece of work" and it's of our own making. We are to be sanctified with our eyes, ears, and tongues, and many tares make for a non-fragrant garden.

We're supposed to be encouraging one another, searching the scriptures, considering passages in the old and new. Rejoicing with each other. Enjoying the Word. Receiving correction and giving admonition.

Judgmental spirits take out their shotguns when you mention the word "prosperity" because of the work of fools that went on before them. In its place, having the provision to do what God called you to is so obvious that only the distracted and blind would argue the point.

 

[rockytopva]

I like what RW Schambach has to say on this matter...

1. If you don't believing in healing stay sick!
2. If you don't believe in prosperity stay poor!
3. If you don't believe in the Holy Ghost leave mine alone!

 

[WOFFER]

I like what RW Schambach has to say on this matter...

1. If you don't believing in healing stay sick!
2. If you don't believe in prosperity stay poor!
3. If you don't believe in the Holy Ghost leave mine alone!

Good stuff. Love Brother Schambach. Got to meet him and talk to him back in the early 90's at Rod Parsley's campmeeting. We were staying in the same hotel as all the guest ministers. He came in after preaching and there were a bunch of us in the lobby fellowshipping. He stopped and talked with us for quite awhile.

 

[rockytopva]

I have a youtube site filled with RW Schambach. Here is one of my favorites!

YouTube - RW Schambach - The Divine Touch

 

[vincentro]

I have an idea of my own. But first, here's a few Scriptures...

8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Joshua 1:8

4Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalm 37:4

3Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Proverbs 16:3

18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. Deuteronomy 8:18

5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. Deuteronomy 30:5

9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers Deuteronomy 30:9

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. Psalm 1:1-3

10The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing. Psalm 34:10

27Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. Psalm 35:27

33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33

It is quite difficult indeed to look at the above Scriptures (and these are only a few -- there are MANY more) and truly not understand that God wants to prosper His kids. So why is it that so many people resist this teaching?

I am interested in hearing others' viewpoints on this, because in all things I want to be thoroughly equipped to minister to others. Studying to show myself approved so to speak.

From my perspective, I can see two issues here. First, I think there are those who simply cannot believe these teachings because of failings in their own lives. They think that since they themselves haven't prospered (for whatever reason), then it must not be sound doctrine.

The second issue (and it can actually be closely linked to the first when one thinks about it) is a good example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". What I mean is that there are those who reject prosperity teachings not because they are unbiblical, but because they don't trust other human beings (and themselves really) with doctrine so wonderful. These are the sorts of folks who like to throw around the words "greed", "lust for money", etc. As if teaching prosperity automatically confers these sorts of sinful thoughts on someone. They seem almost afraid of these teachings, for fear of what human beings might twist them (and HAVE done so BTW) into meaning. Like a preacher who might say, "Give to this ministry from all of your life's savings, and all of your lines of credit, and you will be unbelievably rich!!" Sure, there are thieves out there. And there are those people who believe in prosperity without ONE thought for the Kingdom of God, as we are admonished to seek first in Matthew 6:33. And there are those who want nothing more than to be completely filthy rich, but have no spiritual maturity. These souls should be prayed for, that their hearts and minds come into agreement with what SCRIPTURE teaches about prosperity. But the thing is, such distorted views of Scripture, in my humble opinion, should not negate an important teaching. Just because someone abuses a Scriptural principle does not render the teaching itself null and void. That is what I mean by "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this matter.

The bible tells us that we are fighting a war of faith and the devil cannot possibly just sit whilst the children of God take dominion..he constantly poisons peoples mind against doctrines that will see the kingdom of God advancing,he mostly uses non Christians but i dont worry too much about them because if we saints have the word at the tip of our tongues this is all but empty talk.Unfortunately traditional Christianity is joining in the war and I sometimes wonder what bible some people that claim to be Christians are reading?The problem is we have churches that are acting as just small social gatherings with little or no say in the affairs of the community.Church is the government of God and every government has to dominate and take over,i am tired of churches/preachers that criticize prosperity teaching and the painful thing is they do so at the disadvantage of the whole body of Christ,because this encourages non-believers to paint a good message black.YES there are certain elements taking advantage of the same,but we have to be careful that the devil does not take a free ride on us and create division,sow discord among us as churches.We are the ruling party so we need to be vigorous with our message and never compromising.

As for me if i am not prospering and i claim to be a devoted Christian then i need serious deliverance from whatever may be holding me back.My God is rich and he owns the biggest real estate (earth) with loads and loads of minerals and fertile land.I cant accept to be poor,i cant be preached to by a poor pastor so i cant complain when my pastor gets rich from applying prosperity principles.Lets just ignore those who are not of the house of God because they don't see what we see and concentrate on praying for brethrens who are still afraid to talk about the Church being an example of how man can live without lack AMEN!

 

[CindyisHis]

The apostle John, who was the closest to Jesus states in 3 John 2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Above all things!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

SO - in what ways are you "prospering"?

Are you Debt Free?

IS your bank account exploding?

Are you walking in perfect health?

Are you driving a brand new car???

In fact, are you living IN ANY WAY differently - than the NON-prosperity Believing Christian that lives next door???

 

[Alive_Again]

If anyone wants a refreshing look at biblical prosperity, start listening to Gary Carpenter's series on Kingdom Finance.

He says that God told him that giving to receive (sowing and reaping as it is commonly preached, or tithing is "sharecropper faith". This is where you give your corn for my potatoes. He said He would bless that, but that most believers would never move beyond that level of faith. Consider the lilies, they don't sow, yet... abundant provision.

Real New Covenant in maturity prosperity is based on everything you need for your provision coming straight from God's table of grace, absolutely free. You can't earn your healing, your salvation, or your prosperity. You can obey God in your stewardship, putting the kingdom first.

When I was listening to this I was in shock and really wanted to know truth and even a day later, the seeds in my heart were growing and their was increase on that revelation without any effort on my part.

The whole thing revolves around: "Whatever He says, do it."

The practitioners find themselves giving more than they ever had in their lives, and still having their needs met. It's a level of faith that comes by hearing. God is not poor. He wants your heart right and getting rid of the money changers from your temple comes first.

Is anyone hungry? Look at Gary Carpenter's website. God said that basically an extremely small percentage of Christians know anything about Christian finance. It's all based in being a liberal giver by faith.

To give you a little background about Gary, he speaks in tongues for hours and then stops and speaks into a recorder what God says. He's done this for years and God has trained him to be an expert in hearing His voice. The encouraging thing is that He said He wants ALL believers to be the same way and receive training to do just that.

 

[Jedi.Kep]

a