Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

Very good point. George Pearsons on last nights broadcast (19th November), said he had a quick look at what KCM has given since 2007 and the figure was $37 million! Now, he wasn't saying this to brag or encourge people to give more into KCM. His point was that KCM is a giver and because of this God has blessed their ministry and they are totally debt free, which a lot of other ministries can't say.

Why do people have a problem with prosperity teachings?

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i'll give a perspective, just for the sake of the thread's topic, then scoot, hope you all are well,

because it resembles the love of money which is identified in the scripture as a root of all evil .

and second it resembles mammon worship, in that you cannot love God and Love mammon at the same time .

James identifies the poor as those who possess the kingdom .

and Jesus identifies Himself as the Christ because "the gospel is preached to the poor" and the prosperity message hinders this identifier .

i think those are the main core reasons .

hope you all are well .

Michael Collum said:

i'll give a perspective, just for the sake of the thread's topic, then scoot, hope you all are well,

because it resembles the love of money which is identified in the scripture as a root of all evil .

and second it resembles mammon worship, in that you cannot love God and Love mammon at the same time .

James identifies the poor as those who possess the kingdom .

and Jesus identifies Himself as the Christ because "the gospel is preached to the poor" and the prosperity message hinders this identifier .

i think those are the main core reasons .

hope you all are well .

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Thank you for the insight.

I guess those people who think that way equate having money the same as loving money. I wonder if it every occurred to them that a person broke and in debt can love money. Or why do think they have to hoard it? Jesus taught against that kind of thinking. Remember the rich man who didn't know what to do with all he had and decided to tear down his barn and build a new one? He could have given some away!

The Bible teaches that we are blessed to BE a blessing. Stuff is stuff. It should be used to love people with. And that's what's WoF teaches, b/c that's what's in the Word!

CindyisHis said:

Thank you for the insight.

I guess those people who think that way equate having money the same as loving money. I wonder if it every occurred to them that a person broke and in debt can love money. Or why do think they have to hoard it? Jesus taught against that kind of thinking. Remember the rich man who didn't know what to do with all he had and decided to tear down his barn and build a new one? He could have given some away!

The Bible teaches that we are blessed to BE a blessing. Stuff is stuff. It should be used to love people with. And that's what's WoF teaches, b/c that's what's in the Word!

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Thanks, i can see to a degree what you're talking about re: to make friends using the mammon of unrighteousness while you still have it to be welcomed into eternal dwellings i.e. people's hearts .

Michael Collum said:

Thanks, i can see to a degree what you're talking about re: to make friends using the mammon of unrighteousness while you still have it to be welcomed into eternal dwellings i.e. people's hearts .

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That's true, but not what I meant. I mean, we are blessed in order to help others in need. If you go over to 1 John and the book of James, both talk about putting our faith to work by aiding those in need physically with things like clothes, or food. We don't just simply say, "Be blessed," but we actually give. If we ourselves are suffering poverty and also in need, we can't do that. How good it is to be able to write a huge check for a brother in need, give it to the church secretary and tell her to give it to so and so, an anonymous gift! That's what I'm talking about.

CindyisHis said:

How good it is to be able to write a huge check for a brother in need, give it to the church secretary and tell her to give it to so and so, an anonymous gift! That's what I'm talking about.

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That's true. Blessed to be a blessing.

I've yet to see someone in poverty warning about the dangers of mammon.

CindyisHis said:

That's true, but not what I meant. I mean, we are blessed in order to help others in need. If you go over to 1 John and the book of James, both talk about putting our faith to work by aiding those in need physically with things like clothes, or food. We don't just simply say, "Be blessed," but we actually give. If we ourselves are suffering poverty and also in need, we can't do that. How good it is to be able to write a huge check for a brother in need, give it to the church secretary and tell her to give it to so and so, an anonymous gift! That's what I'm talking about.

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Thank you Cindy

of course, yes that would tie in with what i meant also .

if you want to help the needy with the money you amass then that's biblical and something very dear to God's heart . the bible continues to instruct to not rely on riches being there indefinitely which is generally also important to remember .

didaskalos said:

And not just prosperity.
I have been trusting God for health now for on towards 40 years and have enjoyed health to the point where sickness was rare. Yet I have had "believers" criticise me and tell me I was missing out on the real blessing that God has for the sick.
Say what????

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Good question. What planet is he from, I wonder. We must also remember that there are those that are wealthy for Godly reasons, and those that are poor for Godly reasons. Both can be necessary depending on the work one does. Spiritual wealth can mean we get to the point where we do not need it any longer in our bank accounts - we simply know that anything we need is there when we need it.

ddlf2010 said:

Good question. What planet is he from, I wonder. We must also remember that there are those that are wealthy for Godly reasons, and those that are poor for Godly reasons. Both can be necessary depending on the work one does. Spiritual wealth can mean we get to the point where we do not need it any longer in our bank accounts - we simply know that anything we need is there when we need it.

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NO way. I have to disagree with you. ALL God's promises are to EVERYONE. And all are yes and amen.

Jesus took our pains, our sickness, and our disease. That is so abundantly clear if you study the scripture carefully. I walk in health too, just as Dids does. How you measure the scripture, or how you value it, will be a direct proportion of what you receive. If you spend your time listening to people who say you will be sick, I promise you - you will be sick. There's enough of it on the earth that the curse comes on us easy, just do nothing, and it will hit you! But if we take the Word of God and receive it, we can have what it says. Jesus did not suffer in vain. Take what He longs to give you, life and life more abundant!

Blessings!

ddlf2010 said:

Good question. What planet is he from, I wonder.

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We're citizens of heaven!

CindyisHis said:

We're citizens of heaven!

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I was making light of it.

My dad is part of the WoF church. I was as well for a while. This is what I gather on the subject.

The WoF teaches that if you are not financially successful, not in good health, have a poor family life, and not happy, then you don't have enough faith. Contrary to this, Jesus taught that faith is likened to a mustard seed. A certain level of faith is never required. In one case a man said to Christ "Lord I believe, help now my unbelief".

My disagreement on the teachings of prosperity are attached directly to this: That who and how God blesses, is directly attached to the things that a person does, whether it be super faith or living a holy life.

Also, I look at the example of other believers in the world. Who has the greater faith? The financially bless man with good health, or the poor, destitute, and weak who live in a persecuted world and face death if they are found.

Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? (James 2:5)

perrfekt said:

The WoF teaches that if you are not financially successful, not in good health, have a poor family life, and not happy, then you don't have enough faith. Contrary to this, Jesus taught that faith is likened to a mustard seed. A certain level of faith is never required.

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Jesus said this;
It seems obvious to me that if Jesus' own disciples could have "little faith", we sure could too. These guys saw multitudes fed, they walked with Jesus every day, they saw countless miracles... and yet Jesus said on multiple occasions that they had "little faith". How prideful would I have to be to say that even though Jesus chastised those guys for "little faith", my own faith is never "little"?

BTW, I see that you're new to CF, so I just thought I'd point out that you're posting in the WoF forum, where it is against the rules to debate WoF theology. There are plenty of other places where this discussion/debate can continue, but this is not one of them.

Michael Collum said:

Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? (James 2:5)

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Sooo...
Are you living in a cave eating wild onions and drinking branch water?
I have to assume you are.

JIMOH said:

Sooo...
Are you living in a cave eating wild onions and drinking branch water?
I have to assume you are.

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hmm i don't follow, i was providing a scripture to ponder relating to being poor and having faith . apparently according to scripture, the less you have the more faith you have .

less things=less distractions

bobznew said:

I have an idea of my own. But first, here's a few Scriptures...

8This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. Joshua 1:8

4Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalm 37:4

3Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Proverbs 16:3

18But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. Deuteronomy 8:18

5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. Deuteronomy 30:5

9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers Deuteronomy 30:9

1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. Psalm 1:1-3

10The young lions do lack, and suffer hunger: but they that seek the LORD shall not want any good thing. Psalm 34:10

27Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. Psalm 35:27

33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33

It is quite difficult indeed to look at the above Scriptures (and these are only a few -- there are MANY more) and truly not understand that God wants to prosper His kids. So why is it that so many people resist this teaching?

I am interested in hearing others' viewpoints on this, because in all things I want to be thoroughly equipped to minister to others. Studying to show myself approved so to speak.

From my perspective, I can see two issues here. First, I think there are those who simply cannot believe these teachings because of failings in their own lives. They think that since they themselves haven't prospered (for whatever reason), then it must not be sound doctrine.

The second issue (and it can actually be closely linked to the first when one thinks about it) is a good example of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater". What I mean is that there are those who reject prosperity teachings not because they are unbiblical, but because they don't trust other human beings (and themselves really) with doctrine so wonderful. These are the sorts of folks who like to throw around the words "greed", "lust for money", etc. As if teaching prosperity automatically confers these sorts of sinful thoughts on someone. They seem almost afraid of these teachings, for fear of what human beings might twist them (and HAVE done so BTW) into meaning. Like a preacher who might say, "Give to this ministry from all of your life's savings, and all of your lines of credit, and you will be unbelievably rich!!" Sure, there are thieves out there. And there are those people who believe in prosperity without ONE thought for the Kingdom of God, as we are admonished to seek first in Matthew 6:33. And there are those who want nothing more than to be completely filthy rich, but have no spiritual maturity. These souls should be prayed for, that their hearts and minds come into agreement with what SCRIPTURE teaches about prosperity. But the thing is, such distorted views of Scripture, in my humble opinion, should not negate an important teaching. Just because someone abuses a Scriptural principle does not render the teaching itself null and void. That is what I mean by "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

I would love to hear others' thoughts on this matter.

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Bobznew, people don't have a problem with your prosperity "gospel". You do. You give yourself away with these two quotes - although only you can know how serious the problem is for you:

"Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalm 37:4

3Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Proverbs 16:3"

Jesus taught us: "Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Psalm 37:4

3Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established. Proverbs 16:3"

... I'm going to continue this in another window, as I can't get rid of the blue font.

Jesus taught us: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6:21

Is the wealth of this World, really your heart's desire? You cite several brief passages from the Old Testament. The medieval Franciscan friar, Roger Bacon, commented that the blessing of the Old Testament is prosperity, while the blessing of the New Testament is adversity.

However, in reality there are far more indications in the Old Testament that adversity is the sovereign blessing of the Old Testament, as well. In fact, again and again we find the rich man referred to as a symbol of the wicked man, and the poor man, the true Israel, of the virtuous man.

Why do you imagine that Christ chose to be born of a poor peasant family? And his Apostles, mostly drawn from them, as well? Why do you think that James states in his second epistle that God chose the poor to be rich in faith:

"Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?"

Note that implicit apposition again, this time of the poor man with those God loves and blesses.

Jesus is supposed to be our model, though the vocation to a life of indigence, I believe, is accepted at a subliminal level by the virtuous among the homeless, and is beyond the reach of the rest of us.

Nevertheless, we should also pay heed to Christ's unvarying verbal teaching on the blessedness of the poor (as pope St Leo the Great, stated, humility is more commonly found in the poor than the rich). Jesus doesn't mince his words about wealth, so really, given the whole context of both Old and New Testaments on the subject, you have no excuse for hankering after this world's false riches.

Just read the parable of Lazarus. Jesus doesn't even say Lazarus is evil, just that he enjoyed good things in this life and Lazarus, bad, and that in the next life, their fates would be reversed. Again, it should be viewed in the overall context of his teachings and those of the rest of scripture.

We know that the rich man, Joseph of Arimathea, gave Jesus his own tomb and he was surely loved and was loved by Jesus. Nevertheless, every Good Friday, we hear the passage to the effect that Jesus was buried with the rich man and with the sinner - clearly, yet again, that apposition of the rich man and the sinner.

Why do you think that the Apostles became so poor that they were virtually criminalised by the World, as the scum of the earth - as indeed, shepherds were, yet we read that it was not to the Magi that the angels first appeared, but to the shepherds? According to your way of thinking, the Apostles must have been under a curse, rather than blessed above all the rest of mankind outside of the Holy Family.

I won't be broaching this subject on here again because, really, it beggars belief that anyone familiar with Christian scripture could believe something so contrary to its teachings.

JIMOH said:

Sooo...
Are you living in a cave eating wild onions and drinking branch water?
I have to assume you are.

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Be careful not to mock the scripture, inspired as it is by the Holy Spirit. What possible connection can your respondent's diet and life-style have to do with those words.

If he or she were rich in this world's goods, it would only be to their credit that they acknowledged the truth of scripture in spite of that, rather than trivialising the purport of scripture, as you do, because of their failure to live as a hermit.

paul becke said:

I won't be broaching this subject on here again because, really, it beggars belief that anyone familiar with Christian scripture could believe something so contrary to its teachings.

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Groovy.

Also, please note that you're posting in the WoF congregational forum. Therefore, you are not permitted to debate in this particular forum unless you adhere to WoF beliefs.