Why do people hate the Seventh Day Adventists?

[mmksparbud]

Why wouldn't I want to live longer?

I desire to depart( the body) and be with Christ which is better by far Phil 1:23

Bring on the unhealthy food!

If you think God is pleased with that, again you deceive yourself. You are to live as long and as healthy as possible in order to do the things He needs you to do and be a blessing to others. However, if it is disease and suffering you prefer, you will get them.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Well I'm prettty sure our grandfathers died to give us a right to speak freely, but I'm also sure in our wisdom we choose to be courteous and polite about other peoples beliefs don't we?

Well, certainly.

Please don't flatter yourself.

The Sabbath commandment has nothing to do with worship, but a rest from labor that extends even to one's servants, employees, and farm animals.

In the Tabernacle and Temples, and to this day in traditional synagogues, services are held TWICE DAILY every day.

Indeed. I was tempted to post a thread to this extent but thought better of it.

The Israelites avoided unclean foods but suffered worse diseases ultimately than the Egyptians did. WHY?


Where do you get that???

Deu 8:4 Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years.
Deu 8:19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
Deu 8:20 As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God.
Deu 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
Deu 11:17 And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.

When they followed God, they were blessed, when they didn't, they paid the price. Later they got to be loaded down with added burdens by the Pharisees that had not been commanded. By the time if Jesus, it was don't travel more than so many paces on the Sabbath and so on and Jesus had to correct them, but He also did more to the spirit of the law as He also increased it'd implication---like even if you look at a woman with lust, you have committee adultery.

However, even today, this tiny speck on the map of the world, a grain of sand in comparison, most of the world has tried to wipe out (since 1948) have not been able to. As a people, they do not add up to many---yet the world has not been able to wipe them off the face of the earth as they would like----Their cows today are considered the best, most productive cows in the world. Though smaller, they yield higher milk productions than ours.
They have a higher life expectancy than others all around them in spite of all those around them trying to kill them off.

Islamic Halal is very similiar to Kosher, so this point is not compelling, particularly in light of the fact that violent conflicts, poverty and dillapodated infrastructure depress the life expectancy of the surrounding countries. Including the persecuted Christians of Syria, Iraq and Egypt.

What is more, Adventist ideas on diet go way beyond kosher; the Adventist opposition to meat and alcohol is directly contrary to Judaic practice.

 

[mmksparbud]

I'm too busy with my family, job and charity to take a day off. Must be nice!

That is also one of the reasons God set that day aside---we get too busy. The Sabbath was created for man, for man to set aside their work and commune with God, deal with Him as their God, their creator, it is a command, not a suggestion. If you're too busy for Him, one day, He may be too busy for you.

 

[mmksparbud]

[Staff edit]

I do not accuse anyone of hating either me or my church. The OP just states he is Protestant and is asking the question. I've always accepted the fact that every other religion is not going to agree with my ideas or they would be SDA. Why bring the word hate into it---it's a very strong emotion. I am oppose to Mormonism, JW's, Skin heads and KKK (they I am close to hating but not yet)--I truly hate their ideas, but never the people, In the case of the KKK and Nazi's, that really comes close to hate for that is pure evil, but the people are led by their own hatred.

[Staff edit]

 

[mark wright]

I do not accuse anyone of hating either me or my church. The OP just states he is Protestant and is asking the question. I've always accepted the fact that every other religion is not going to agree with my ideas or they would be SDA. Why bring the word hate into it---it's a very strong emotion. I am oppose to Mormonism, JW's, Skin heads and KKK (they I am close to hating but not yet)--I truly hate their ideas, but never the people, In the case of the KKK and Nazi's, that really comes close to hate for that is pure evil, but the people are led by their own hatred.

But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code ( law) rom7:6

As people I like seventh day Adventists. As I mentioned earlier, for a couple of months to please a friend I went to his church on a Saturday. The people were nice and friendly. I liked them. But the thing that struck me most was, they followed after the parts of the written code/ literal letter of law more than any other church I have ever been to.
Let us reason beyond just reciting the letter. In this thread you are debating with people who I am sure you accept as Christians. They are well aware of the literal wording of the fourth commandment, and that the church changed the official Sabbath day to Sunday. Now if you, by following the written code are correct, we are all in wilfull, open rebellion against God by refusing to specifically observe a specific Saturday Sabbath, and this open rebellion is not causing us to have any conscience we sin by doing so. My friend, please see beyond just reciting the letter. It is not possible for any one to be in wilfull rebellion against God without conscience and for them to be a Christian.
The law is written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer God requires them to keep, Doug bachelor acknowledges that. Whatever is in your mind you know, and if you go against the law placed on your heart you must have heartfelt conviction you sin by doing so.
Can you reason beyond simply quoting the written code?

I can assure you I have had much heartfelt conviction of sin in my life, the burden was too great once I became born again for then i did not understand grace. The weight of my imperfections was huge. Never had that before I got saved, but once the law was placed within me i had great conviction of my sin before God. But I was not convicted I sinned by failing to observe a specific saturday Sabbath. If that literal law was on my heart and mind i would have had to be conscious i sinned by failing to observe it.
You have to understand beyond just seeing the literal letter.

 

[mark wright]

[Staff edit]

In romans chapter 14 Paul speaks of what he terms disputable matters. Two specific things are mentions. By disputable he means you can take either view, its up to you:

One man considers one day more sacred/ holy than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind verse 5

And of course the other is, Paul's conviction all food is clean.
I know you will not accept verse five as written, for if you or other sda did it would negate the need for your denomination.
However, when Paul followed the written code he would have ardently held to a specific saturday Sabbath. But now he has been released from the law and serves I the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Please don't flatter yourself.

I'm not, I am humbled...

The Sabbath commandment has nothing to do with worship, but a rest from labor that extends even to one's servants, employees, and farm animals.

Even though the Bible speaking about Sabbath as a part of worshipping God?

In the Tabernacle and Temples, and to this day in traditional synagogues, services are held TWICE DAILY every day.

In case you missed it, the Bible clearly sates that the OT worship in the synagogues was finished... the temple desolate.

[Staff edit]

 

[mmksparbud]

But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code ( law) rom7:6

As people I like seventh day Adventists. As I mentioned earlier, for a couple of months to please a friend I went to his church on a Saturday. The people were nice and friendly. I liked them. But the thing that struck me most was, they followed after the parts of the written code/ literal letter of law more than any other church I have ever been to.
Let us reason beyond just reciting the letter. In this thread you are debating with people who I am sure you accept as Christians. They are well aware of the literal wording of the fourth commandment, and that the church changed the official Sabbath day to Sunday. Now if you, by following the written code are correct, we are all in wilfull, open rebellion against God by refusing to specifically observe a specific Saturday Sabbath, and this open rebellion is not causing us to have any conscience we sin by doing so. My friend, please see beyond just reciting the letter. It is not possible for any one to be in wilfull rebellion against God without conscience and for them to be a Christian.
The law is written on the mind and placed on the heart of the believer God requires them to keep, Doug bachelor acknowledges that. Whatever is in your mind you know, and if you go against the law placed on your heart you must have heartfelt conviction you sin by doing so.
Can you reason beyond simply quoting the written code?

I can assure you I have had much heartfelt conviction of sin in my life, the burden was too great once I became born again for then i did not understand grace. The weight of my imperfections was huge. Never had that before I got saved, but once the law was placed within me i had great conviction of my sin before God. But I was not convicted I sinned by failing to observe a specific saturday Sabbath. If that literal law was on my heart and mind i would have had to be conscious i sinned by failing to observe it.
You have to understand beyond just seeing the literal letter

I've never believed that Sunday keepers are in "open rebellion against God" ---Paul was convinced that in persecuting Christians he was doing the will of God. God obviously did not consider him lost though he participated in the stoning of Stephen. It can take the Holy Spirit decades to get through to someone. I know that from personal experience for I left the church as soon as I could, being openly, verbally hostile to God and in full rebellion stating out loud to Him that I wanted Him to leave me alone and that I was quite willing to go to hell, I was going to live my life the way the way I wanted to---without Him in it in any way-and so I did, for over 25 years.
How can anyone raised in a certain way all their life, all of a sudden turn around and drop those believes? It is nearly impossible when you believe what you do is the right thing. Like Paul, it can take a direct confrontation with God Himself, a 2 X4 across the head, a great miracle on your behalf, a great loss, one moment when you look at a scripture and suddenly---it hits you right between the eyes and you wonder how come you never saw that before! It took 50 years for one person to all of a sudden have that happen---he was stunned it had taken so long when it seemed so clear now. And it is not always about what day to worship God. God takes us on a journey and peels us like an onion----top layer first till we get to the last bit of useless skin. He deals with us as individuals and what He feels we need to do first, He sets out to reach us on that matter--then on to the next. Some other things may be far more important for the relationship with God to be made clearer than others--and that includes "the day". I do not for one second believe that Mother Theresa would be lost for keeping Sunday. If she would be lost---and that is a big if--it would be for something that at the core is disbelieve and unrepentant sin. That only God would know.

 

[mark wright]

I've never believed that Sunday keepers are in "open rebellion against God" ---Paul was convinced that in persecuting Christians he was doing the will of God. God obviously did not consider him lost though he participated in the stoning of Stephen. It can take the Holy Spirit decades to get through to someone. I know that from personal experience for I left the church as soon as I could, being openly, verbally hostile to God and in full rebellion stating out loud to Him that I wanted Him to leave me alone and that I was quite willing to go to hell, I was going to live my life the way the way I wanted to---without Him in it in any way-and so I did, for over 25 years.
How can anyone raised in a certain way all their life, all of a sudden turn around and drop those believes? It is nearly impossible when you believe what you do is the right thing. Like Paul, it can take a direct confrontation with God Himself, a 2 X4 across the head, a great miracle on your behalf, a great loss, one moment when you look at a scripture and suddenly---it hits you right between the eyes and you wonder how come you never saw that before! It took 50 years for one person to all of a sudden have that happen---he was stunned it had taken so long when it seemed so clear now. And it is not always about what day to worship God. God takes us on a journey and peels us like an onion----top layer first till we get to the last bit of useless skin. He deals with us as individuals and what He feels we need to do first, He sets out to reach us on that matter--then on to the next. Some other things may be far more important for the relationship with God to be made clearer than others--and that includes "the day". I do not for one second believe that Mother Theresa would be lost for keeping Sunday. If she would be lost---and that is a big if--it would be for something that at the core is disbelieve and unrepentant sin. That only God would know.

Saul the Pharisee was not born again, the law had not been written on his mind and placed on his heart. While I agree the christian is on a journey, you have to understand what the law placed within you does. It reveals the sin. If any minister contradicts that law in his teaching he will not convince any christian he is correct
IE
If a minister told me christians can commit adultery, take the Lords name I vain, murder, steal etc, I would have heartfelt conviction he was wrong. So if he told me I don't have to observe a specific saturday Sabbath I would be convicted he was wrong I that was placed on my heart.
You cannot go against the law within you without being conscious you sin by doing so.

 

[mmksparbud]

In romans
In romans chapter 14 Paul speaks of what he terms disputable matters. Two specific things are mentions. By disputable he means you can take either view, its up to you:

One man considers one day more sacred/ holy than another, another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind verse 5

And of course the other is, Paul's conviction all food is clean.
I know you will not accept verse five as written, for if you or other sda did it would negate the need for your denomination.
However, when Paul followed the written code he would have ardently held to a specific saturday Sabbath. But now he has been released from the law and serves I the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code

One man considers one day more sacred than others--if you look closely, he was referring to the Jewish feasts, there were many. Paul, was a Jew, raised on the Sabbath as sacred, if he meant Sabbath, then he would have said the Sabbath. The Jews called all the feast days sabbaths.

Please read that whole vison of the unclean animals---it is not what you think it is. In the first place---it wasn't very clear to Paul and he didn't know what it meant at first.
Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

What he had been shown had nothing to do with eating ---

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
The vision was about people--not food.

Yes, the law is now in our hearts--it is the law never the less. But, still we are saved by grace. We keep the law written in or hearts because that heart is filled with love for God and man, being obedient is something we do out of that love. We love our spouses and thus do not commit adultery, we love our fellow man and do not steal what he has acquired, we love God and keep the day He sanctified and hallowed to rest our minds and bodies and worship Him.
BTW--did you know the best way to learn something? Learned it when cramming for tests-----change the subject entirely. I would study for a certain topic, than change the topic. Then come back to it. Stayed in there better and I passed my tests--can't remember where I had read that ( I was a voracious reader in my youth)
Sabbath is the same principle I realized one day. Busy, busy, busy, work, work, work, do your own stuff--then boom, stop, change the subject, rest body and mind and it's God, God, God and you know what--He stays with you much more during the rest of the week.

 

[mmksparbud]

Saul the Pharisee was not born again, the law had not been written on his mind and placed on his heart. While I agree the christian is on a journey, you have to understand what the law placed within you does. It reveals the sin. If any minister contradicts that law in his teaching he will not convince any christian he is correct
IE
If a minister told me christians can commit adultery, take the Lords name I vain, murder, steal etc, I would have heartfelt conviction he was wrong. So if he told me I don't have to observe a specific saturday Sabbath I would be convicted he was wrong I that was placed on my heart.
You cannot go against the law within you without being conscious you sin by doing so.

The law is merely a mirror---it shows you the sin, it does not save you. You are saying that it would be wrong to break the other 9 commandments, but, because you have not felt some thing, breaking the one remaining one is not important----esp of it is inconvenient, goes against what everybody else is saying, including the minister, and messes with your life style?
"You cannot go against the law within you without being conscious you sin by doing so." Oh, yes, you can. We are stubborn, eso. When it coms to upsetting our lifestyles and firmly held believes. People do it all the time. Addicts can be in denial, stating they have no problem, all the way to their death from their addiction.

 

[mark wright]

I've never believed that Sunday keepers are in "open rebellion against God" ---Paul was convinced that in persecuting Christians he was doing the will of God. God obviously did not consider him lost though he participated in the stoning of Stephen. It can take the Holy Spirit decades to get through to someone. I know that from personal experience for I left the church as soon as I could, being openly, verbally hostile to God and in full rebellion stating out loud to Him that I wanted Him to leave me alone and that I was quite willing to go to hell, I was going to live my life the way the way I wanted to---without Him in it in any way-and so I did, for over 25 years.
How can anyone raised in a certain way all their life, all of a sudden turn around and drop those believes? It is nearly impossible when you believe what you do is the right thing. Like Paul, it can take a direct confrontation with God Himself, a 2 X4 across the head, a great miracle on your behalf, a great loss, one moment when you look at a scripture and suddenly---it hits you right between the eyes and you wonder how come you never saw that before! It took 50 years for one person to all of a sudden have that happen---he was stunned it had taken so long when it seemed so clear now. And it is not always about what day to worship God. God takes us on a journey and peels us like an onion----top layer first till we get to the last bit of useless skin. He deals with us as individuals and what He feels we need to do first, He sets out to reach us on that matter--then on to the next. Some other things may be far more important for the relationship with God to be made clearer than others--and that includes "the day". I do not for one second believe that Mother Theresa would be lost for keeping Sunday. If she would be lost---and that is a big if--it would be for something that at the core is disbelieve and unrepentant sin. That only God would know.

Looking to the written code does NOT anywhere near convict you of sin to the degree the law on your heart does. In fact, it may not convict you at all!
I knew a woman who insisted the ten commandments must be obeyed( with the strong inference that was your justification for heaven) I have personally met no one as passionate as her this was so. When i told her a person was not justified by obeying the ten commandments she shook her head and laughed.
This woman tithed her money, she went to church every Saturday, she avoided the levitical uncles foods and did not drink alcohol. She had been baptised in water and enthusiastically called out AMEN in the church service when the minister said something that stirred her.
But at the same Tim this woman could take the Lords name in vain, not aware she broke the commandment by doing so. She also had multiple affairs while she attended the church. This was justified by knowing no one is perfect.
It is a biblical fact. The harder you try to be justified by looking to the written code, the more corrupted you become on the inside.

 

[mark wright]

One man considers one day more sacred than others--if you look closely, he was referring to the Jewish feasts, there were many. Paul, was a Jew, raised on the Sabbath as sacred, if he meant Sabbath, then he would have said the Sabbath. The Jews called all the feast days sabbaths.

Please read that whole vison of the unclean animals---it is not what you think it is. In the first place---it wasn't very clear to Paul and he didn't know what it meant at first.
Act 10:17 Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,

What he had been shown had nothing to do with eating ---

Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Act 10:29 Therefore came I unto you without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me?

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
The vision was about people--not food.

Yes, the law is now in our hearts--it is the law never the less. But, still we are saved by grace. We keep the law written in or hearts because that heart is filled with love for God and man, being obedient is something we do out of that love. We love our spouses and thus do not commit adultery, we love our fellow man and do not steal what he has acquired, we love God and keep the day He sanctified and hallowed to rest our minds and bodies and worship Him.
BTW--did you know the best way to learn something? Learned it when cramming for tests-----change the subject entirely. I would study for a certain topic, than change the topic. Then come back to it. Stayed in there better and I passed my tests--can't remember where I had read that ( I was a voracious reader in my youth)
Sabbath is the same principle I realized one day. Busy, busy, busy, work, work, work, do your own stuff--then boom, stop, change the subject, rest body and mind and it's God, God, God and you know what--He stays with you much more during the rest of the week.

But of course Paul does not mention feast days in that verse does he, you add that.

And he twice plainly states in that chapter all food I clean.
Every seventh day Adventist I have met, in reality believes they will attain heaven if they obey the ten commandments.
That I living under a righteousness/ justification of those laws to attain heaven. But I am sure most do not see it

 

[mmksparbud]

Looking to the written code does NOT anywhere near convict you of sin to the degree the law on your heart does. In fact, it may not convict you at all!
I knew a woman who insisted the ten commandments must be obeyed( with the strong inference that was your justification for heaven) I have personally met no one as passionate as her this was so. When i told her a person was not justified by obeying the ten commandments she shook her head and laughed.
This woman tithed her money, she went to church every Saturday, she avoided the levitical uncles foods and did not drink alcohol. She had been baptised in water and enthusiastically called out AMEN in the church service when the minister said something that stirred her.
But at the same Tim this woman could take the Lords name in vain, not aware she broke the commandment by doing so. She also had multiple affairs while she attended the church. This was justified by knowing no one is perfect.
It is a biblical fact. The harder you try to be justified by looking to the written code, the more corrupted you become on the inside.

LOL! That same woman, or man is in every church--including the ones that say we are not saved by the law!!!
They do it even more, since there is no law and they can talk themselves into believing anything. We are just like that no matter what believe. That is why we must look to Jesus and not each other. If you took a magnifying glass into the heart of your own church----you wouldn't see anything different. Even though David was a man after God's own heart--he still committed adultery and even murder and it took over a year for him to be TOLD he had sinned!! And don't give this that was old testament stuff---the holy spirit was still alive and well in the old testament and convicted of sin, but we can talk ourselves into disregarding anything---even Adam and Eve did it----even Lucifer, did it even though in the very presence of God Himself!

 

[mark wright]

The law is merely a mirror---it shows you the sin, it does not save you. You are saying that it would be wrong to break the other 9 commandments, but, because you have not felt some thing, breaking the one remaining one is not important----esp of it is inconvenient, goes against what everybody else is saying, including the minister, and messes with your life style?
"You cannot go against the law within you without being conscious you sin by doing so." Oh, yes, you can. We are stubborn, eso. When it coms to upsetting our lifestyles and firmly held believes. People do it all the time. Addicts can be in denial, stating they have no problem, all the way to their death from their addiction.

Through the law we become conscious of sin rom 3:20

"You cannot go against the law within you without being conscious you sin by doing so." Oh, yes, you can. We are stubborn, eso. When it coms to upsetting our lifestyles and firmly held believes. People do it all the time. Addicts can be in denial, stating they have no problem, all the way to their death from their addiction.

My friend, how can you compare addicts who have not been born again with those who have been, and therefore the law is placed within them.
I know that people who follow the written code can sin without conscience /be ignorant of their sin, as I previously showed you.
All I can tell you is, I have not been afforded such a luxury

 

[mark wright]

LOL! That same woman, or man is in every church--including the ones that say we are not saved by the law!!!
They do it even more, since there is no law and they can talk themselves into believing anything. We are just like that no matter what believe. That is why we must look to Jesus and not each other. If you took a magnifying glass into the heart of your own church----you wouldn't see anything different. Even though David was a man after God's own heart--he still committed adultery and even murder and it took over a year for him to be TOLD he had sinned!! And don't give this that was old testament stuff---the holy spirit was still alive and well in the old testament and convicted of sin, but we can talk ourselves into disregarding anything---even Adam and Eve did it----even Lucifer, did it even though in the very presence of God Himself!

I would be naive and wrong to suggest in all churches I have been to no one has ever slept with someone outside of marriage. But I can say I personally have been a member of no church where it happened on such a scale as i witnessed there

 

[mark wright]

LOL! That same woman, or man is in every church--including the ones that say we are not saved by the law!!!
!

BTW
That is what the woman told me.
It happens in every church.

I guess people who follow the written code and insist you must obey it to attain heaven have a low expectation of the obedience required

 

[mmksparbud]

But of course Paul does not mention feast days in that verse does he, you add that.

And he twice plainly states in that chapter all food I clean.
Every seventh day Adventist I have met, in reality believes they will attain heaven if they obey the ten commandments.
That I living under a righteousness/ justification of those laws to attain heaven. But I am sure most do not see it

No he doesn't mention feast days in that verse--he doesn't mention any day in that verse, esp not the Sabbath. The fact, however, is that they had many feast days they highly regarded. But with their Levitical laws done away with, they no longer had to be kept, but some still wanted to.

Good grief, I just quoted the verses where he states clearly the vision is about people not food and you still insist it's about food!!! You want to tell me again how you can't disregard the Holy Spirit??
I have to say, I've never met any SDA who believes they will go to heaven if they keep all the commandments. But I know this, you can be lost if you disobey them and are unrepentant.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Keeping them will not save you if you do not do so out of love for God and man, but breaking them will condemn you.

 

[mmksparbud]

I would be naive and wrong to suggest in all churches I have been to no one has ever slept with someone outside of marriage. But I can say I personally have been a member of no church where it happened on such a scale as i witnessed there

Really---you should pray for them. You go from one to "on such a scale"---Like I said, we do not look to people but to Christ. If it is sin you want to see, get your sleuth shoes on and check out the members of your own church, you just might be surprised. But no other church will be. A church is a bunch of sinners on a journey to God, not a museum of those that have achieved perfection. Of course, you and your church could be different, but I doubt it.

 

[mmksparbud]

BTW
That is what the woman told me.
It happens in every church.

I guess people who follow the written code and insist you must obey it to attain heaven have a low expectation of the obedience required

Actually, I have found the opposite to be the norm. Those who believe they do not have to obey the law have no expectations at all of the obedience required. Those who are foolish enough to truly believe that the law saves them, pull out their own teeth trying to keep them.