Why do people believe in evolution?

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why exactly is, for example, the argument for the necessity of evil from "the Greater Good" weak?

It's the flaw in utilitarianism, that the ends justify the means; it's also not clear that a reduction in evil, e.g. natural disasters, would decrease the greater good rather than increasing it. It also raises the question of how the amount of suffering we see contributes to the greater good, and, of course, who judges what is the greater good - which, of course, is God, the entity in question; which also means that the answer to the question of how the amount of suffering we see contributes to the greater good is open to the 'God Works In Mysterious Ways' evasion.

 

[trophy33]

God created the earth with age embedded in it.

And the evidence are just genealogies in the Bible? Thats the reason why you need such hypothesis? Or something else, too, is leading to this conclusion?

Adam Clarke answers it best:God did not "plant fake scars" anywhere. He created the universe in absolute perfection.

Can you define perfection? Because if I remember correctly, the Bible says "it was good". Not "it was perfect".

 

[trophy33]

Because it’s like saying you have to have your foot broken so that you can appreciate not having your leg broken.

Why not just have nothing broken (evil in this case is the breaking)?

For example, without breaking your leg, you would not lay in your bed, having time to read and to learn something that will greatly enrich your next years.

 

[trophy33]

It's the flaw in utilitarianism, that the ends justify the means;

Whats the flaw in it, exactly?

For example, the sacrifice of one - of Christ - gave the salvation and spiritual transformation to billions.

And we can find many examples in worldly affairs too.

 

[AV1611VET]

And the evidence are just genealogies in the Bible?

Evidence of what? age? or time in existence?

The genealogies are what tell me the earth was created in 4004 BC.

Science tells me the earth is old.

As does Peter:

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

It stand to reason that, if you are going to put life on the earth, you are going to have to have mature things up and running, else that life can't eat; as Adam Clarke so aptly pointed out.

Can you define perfection?

Having all the qualifications to do what is expected of you.

Biblical perfection has the meaning of "complete."

 

[trophy33]

The genealogies are what tell me the earth was created in 4004 BC.

Just genealogies? Nothing else points to 4004 BC?

Biblical perfection has the meaning of "complete."

What biblical perfection? What verse do you have in mind that says that the creation is perfect/was perfect?

 

[dlamberth]

God created the earth with age embedded in it.

I still say that the whole idea of embedded age makes God out to be a liar. And God can not lie.
So Embedded Age can TAKE A HIKE!!!

 

[MIDutch]

The genealogies are what tell me the earth was created in 4004 BC.

Many of the individuals in that "geneology" are fictional, which makes the "geneology" itself a work of fiction, and is therefore invalid as a way to determine anything.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I still say that the whole idea of embedded age makes God out to be a liar. And God can not lie.
So Embedded Age can TAKE A HIKE!!!

Was God lying when He created aged animals and Adam and Eve?

 

[AV1611VET]

Just genealogies?

As far as I know, yes.

Nothing else points to 4004 BC?

As far as I know, no.

What biblical perfection? What verse do you have in mind that says that the creation is perfect/was perfect?

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Again, from Adam Clarke:

{The plan wise, the work well executed, the different parts properly arranged; their nature, limits, mode of existence, manner of propagation, habits, mode of sustenance, &c., &c., properly and permanently established and secured; for every thing was formed to the utmost perfection of its nature, so that nothing could be added or diminished without encumbering the operations of matter and spirit on the one hand, or rendering them inefficient to the end proposed on the other; and God has so done all these marvellous works as to be glorified in all, by all, and through all.}

As we say: God doesn't make junk.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Whats the flaw in it, exactly?

For example, the sacrifice of one - of Christ - gave the salvation and spiritual transformation to billions.

And we can find many examples in worldly affairs too.

The sacrifice of Christ was, in an important sense, voluntary.

Utilitarianism can work in certain limited contexts, but the utilitarian calculus is a problem - if your goal is the greatest happiness (thriving, wellbeing, etc) of the greatest number, then you can, in principle, justify the horrific treatment of a few (or more than a few) for the benefit of the many, e.g. slavery. Now, if you want to modify the calculus to reduce inequalities, you might end up with everyone equally miserable - which is not the greatest happiness of the greatest number. These are exaggerated examples, but you see the problem.

The other aspect is the definition and judgement of the 'greater good' - for example, this has been associated with tyrants who persuade their people to do horrors in the name of what they claim is the greater good. It is also the second horn of the Euthyphro dilemma ("Does God command what is good, or is it good because God commands it?"). IOW, is God just the messenger for some objective morality, or is God the source of morality? If the first is the case, God is not the arbiter of morality; if the second is the case (as in our problem of evil situation), the 'greater good' is arbitrary, dependent on God's command or whim.

Now, you may say that God is, by definition, good, therefore what God commands must be good. But this is the problem of the tyrant - if we cede judgement of the good, we must accept whatever we're told is good, whether it conflicts with our sense of natural justice or not; we have abrogated the responsibility to judge - so, God Works In Mysterious Ways, who are we to judge? IOW we exchange our natural or innate concept of 'good' for the command of the unknowable and ineffable. We effectively lose our knowledge of the good; when "what God commands " equates to "good", then by substitution we get, "what God commands is what God commands"... the 'good' is lost. You can see the implications in the case of an evil God.

Finally, there is the problem of provenance and interpretation. Who speaks for God? Who interprets God's word? IOW to whom do we abrogate our judgement of right and wrong, and why?

 

[AV1611VET]

I still say that the whole idea of embedded age makes God out to be a liar.

Of course you would.

Otherwise a light bulb would have to come on.

 

[trophy33]

As far as I know, yes.As far as I know, no.

Ok, so its just genealogies against eeeeverything else in the world. Hm.

So, for the start - what genealogies you prefer, according to the masoretic text or according to the Septuagint?
And why?

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
As we say: God doesn't make junk.

So, if we want to be purerly biblical, God created a good world. Not a perfect one, not a junk. Simply a good world.

 

[AV1611VET]

Many of the individuals in that "geneology" are fictional,

Can you give me one example please?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

For example, without breaking your leg, you would not lay in your bed, having time to read and to learn something that will greatly enrich your next years.

Equally, you might lay in your bed, writhing in discomfort and unable to concentrate on anything; then, after a wasted convalescence, spend your future limping and unable to pursue the skilled activities you spent so long honing.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ok, so its just genealogies against eeeeverything else in the world. Hm.

So, for the start - what genealogies you prefer, according to the masoretic text or according to the Septuagint?
And why?

Myst, I'm sorry. I don't need the third degree, okay?

Make some stupid remark about my character and then drop it please.

A light bulb can't come on where there's no electricity.

 

[trophy33]

Equally, you might lay in your bed, writhing in discomfort and unable to concentrate on anything; then, after a wasted convalescence, spend your future limping and unable to pursue the skilled activities you spent so long honing.

Yes, but thats why its on God, who knows every detail and every outcome, to decide. Not on us.

 

[dlamberth]

Of course you would.

Otherwise a light bulb would have to come on.

Honestly AV, I have tried the light of your bulb, and it gave a false reading. It failed majorly because the earth can not lie any more than God can lie. And Embedded Age completely depends upon the deception of both God and the Earth in order for it to work. And that just doesn't work for me.

I repeat: Embedded Age can TAKE A HIKE!!

 

[trophy33]

Myst, I'm sorry. I don't need the third degree, okay?

Make some stupid remark about my character and then drop it please.

A light bulb can't come on where there's no electricity.

I have never done any remark about your character.

I thought you want to discuss your ideas.

 

[MIDutch]

Can you give me one example please?

I'll give you two, Adam and Eve.