Why do nice guys finish last?

[vibrant]

Small group activities are the best start. Invite a few people (no more than 5 or 6) people over to your house to watch a movie or play games or something along those lines. Or take 3 friends and go sit in a coffee shop for a couple of hours. Or plan a small group picnic.

Small groups are the best because you can get to know everyone in the group and it is non-threatening for everyone. Discussion tends to be more meaningful than in large groups, but without the awkwardness of being one-on-one. This way you can get to know her better, she will know you better, plus the other friends involved will also be a huge bonus... and it doesn't have to be a big pressure thing about trying to impress a certain girl--instead, just hang out and relax and have fun. The rest, if there is mutual interest, will grow out of that.

Sax - just a side tip, and it may seem totally screwy and be rejected by all the women here. One of the most attractive guys in the world is the guy who has no worries about how he's doing with the women and is unique and himself. The outcome of the date is not an issue because he's not keeping score - he's just there to enjoy the evening or day with someone and has hopes they enjoy as well. If they don't, well, there are other times, and a date is not the world. And he's not above friendly teasing of anyone just to bring a smile. But remember, it has to be for real! Any worry, or expectation, and it will echo all around you. Uncertainty shouts even in silence, confidence smiles in everything you do or are.

2 particular gems of social advice that i noticed while briefly skimming through.

 

[the outlaw]

So say, hypothetically, there's a girl who works at the local Blockbuster video and you don't have any mutual friends to pull the "let's all hang out" bit. As I said, I'm a shy guy and most of the girls I've gone out with knew me as friends or whatever. So do I go in there and drop my line...

"Do you have "50 First Dates"?
"No?...Well, how about just one with you?"

I think that's A+ material...and it would only work in the current situation...

Or do I do as my friend suggested and just start with a simple "hey..."

 

[klewlis]

now that I think about it some more, I don't think that nice guys actually finish last. I know plenty who are happily married to great girls.

However, *shy* guys might have more of a problem, simply because they're shy. But that goes for both girls and guys and has nothing to do with whether you're nice or not.

 

[plum]

*thumbs up to the outlaw* rock on, brother. Throw down a line and get a grin and maybe more. lol

 

[Matthew Hobbs]

I have to vote not on using a line on the Blockbuster girl. I've never asked anyone out like that before -

I've worked retail (register jockey) and service (bartender, waiter) before, alongside lots of girls. Male customers asking them out always came of as creepy, and I've never known it to work.

Sorry I don't have anything more encouraging.

 

[plum]

oh but it's funny!

 

[stray bullet]

A little strong, whatever happened to asking someone to meet for coffee after work?

 

[DatingSmarts]

Maybe I had better try and see the similarities between men and women which I am finding very difficult. Having been surrounded by guys all my life in school and at home (i have 3 brothers) I can say that I find girls very different from men. They don't seem to like discussing politics, economics, sport, current affairs, and arguing about things, whereas these are the things that i tend to talk about with my friends. My interests tend to be male dominated, e.g. chess, debating, jazz, rugby and it seems I can rarely find common ground with a girl or anything to discuss.

Probably the only thing that I share in common with some girls is my faith, but as a fairly new Christian this is not strong enough to act as a bond with girls.

Sax,

there is your problem right there.

you are argumentative. And you hang around argumentative men.

The things you have an interest in discussing all revolve around argumentation. This sets you up as an enemy rather than a friend.
You are setting yourself up as an adversary when your discussions consistently revolve around these kinds of things. These kinds of topics/behaviors should be less than 20% of your time in getting to know a woman.

The skills of argumentation are not appropriate in interpersonal relationships. They are different communication skills and serve a different purpose.

Women do not want to date a guy who is always looking for an argument or trying to get them to change their attitudes, beliefs and values.

the purpose of argumentation in the topics you mentioned is to persuade someone to change their mind or to change the status quo.

this is not healthy for relationships.

 

[klewlis]

Sax,

there is your problem right there.

you are argumentative. And you hang around argumentative men.

The things you have an interest in discussing all revolve around argumentation. This sets you up as an enemy rather than a friend.
You are setting yourself up as an adversary when your discussions consistently revolve around these kinds of things. These kinds of topics/behaviors should be less than 20% of your time in getting to know a woman.

The skills of argumentation are not appropriate in interpersonal relationships. They are different communication skills and serve a different purpose.

Women do not want to date a guy who is always looking for an argument or trying to get them to change their attitudes, beliefs and values.

the purpose of argumentation in the topics you mentioned is to persuade someone to change their mind or to change the status quo.

this is not healthy for relationships.

I don't think this is *necessarily* the case. There is nothing wrong with healthy debate. It is all in one's attitude, whether they come across as arrogant and pushy or just active thinkers.

 

[stray bullet]

and sometimes people will think one way regardless, because they don't care for your side.

 

[DatingSmarts]

I don't understand it, I had yet another rejection last night from a girl who was an good acquantaince of mine. Her words "I like you a lot, but I would rather we stay friends". It seems like this is the 20th time this year I have heard something to this effect.

Being Valentines Day it was especially depressing to see lots of couples enjoying themselves, hence intensifying these feelings.

It seems that nowadays girls just don't seem to like gentlemen, and I see even Christian girls with rude arrogant jerks. I am polite, well-mannered, well-spoken, gentle, quiet, considerate and complimentary without being insincere, as well as being fairly good looking and intelligent. But despite knowing lots of girls not one of them seems to be attracted to me, and I have asked out a good proportion of them.

Being single does not bother me too much, but it would be nice to be able to take a date to formals like the ball I went too last night, and to have female company for theatre, jazz evenings and concerts that my male friends don't go for. Yet I am near to despairing. The chances of a girl being a) Single b) Attracted to me and c) Reasonably pretty and intelligent
seem to be extremely slim.

sax

in addition to my constructive advice on interpersonal skills vs argumentation and debate skills, i must teach you the following:


when a woman says she just wants to be friends, that means she does not see you as someone she would want to have sexual relations with at some point down the road.

I think its great that you are a gentleman. However, do not be deceived into thinking that women want jerks. They want a man they find sexually attractive just as much as men want a woman they are sexually attracted to. Like men, they want also someone with a good personality. They ususally say 'nice'. But in addition to wanting someone who is sexy, and good personality, women want a guy who is assertive. They don't want someone who is passive and they don't want someone who is aggressive. Both aggressive men and passive men can be jerks. Assertive men???? highly unlikely that they, of all men, would be jerks.


|----------------------------------------|-----------------------------------|
passive..........................assertive.......................aggressive



This is a scale of communication behavior. passive is on the left, assertive is in the middle and aggressive is on the right. passive and aggressive are extremes of behavior, while assertive is a balance of the two.

The truth is that women want an assertive guy. they want someone who respects himself as well as her.

a guy who is passive doesn't respect himself--she can walk all over him. and

a guy who is aggressive doesn't respect her; he beats her up, takes advantage of her, walks all over her etc; she loses respect for herself.

a guy who is assertive respects himself and he respects the woman as well.

for now, it looks like you will have to casually date until you find someone who fits your three criteria listed as a b and c

I think that if you have a tendency to argue a lot, that you also tend to be aggressive. If so, this could hurt your chances of being in a relationship with any woman, because they don't want to argue all day, every day about everything.

It can also be seen as controlling when you seek to argue with someone because you are trying to CHANGE the other person's views, attitudes, behaviors, beliefs, etc. People do not like to change and they don't want to be forced to change or bullied to change, some won't even tolerate being persuaded to change...argumentation can get into the realms of verbal bullying. it is adversarial, afterall.

I just think perhaps you need to learn a different set of communication skills that deals with interpersonal communication so as to be able to relate to women.

Also, do not forget that a woman must find you sexy or cute in addition to feeling comfortable talking to you in order to want to go out or have a serious relationship with you. women are no different than men when it comes to looks and sex appeal. they just aren't allowed to say it. or they wrongly believe its not 'nice' to say/think that way. notice how they pressure men about only wanting pretty girls and not wanting the less attractive girls. lol

they claim its unethical but its really an appeal to pity...

 

[Saxman]

You have interesting advice Dating Smarts, thank you. When I say I like to argue what I really mean is discuss. I don't try and force my views on anyone and always look for common ground and things to agree on. I just share my opinions and expect others to do the same. And even I know that no gentleman argues with a girl. I only argue with people who I have known for a longtime or who are from my politics and debating societies. With girls I just tend to try and get them to talk about themselves and try and ask questions to them. I am not very good at it and find it hard but I do try

Aggressive is the last thing I am. If anything I veer slightly towards passive. I stay calm most of the time and it takes a lot to rile me. I am also capable of politely stating my opinions and what I want.

Unfortunately I had another rejection the other day. There is a girl from debating who I really like. She is Christian, likes discussing politics and debating other topics with me, and we went to a competition together. She is very friendly to me and very good company, but when I asked her to join me for luncheon on Wednesday when I know she is free, she said no without even giving a reason. Seems that maybe she is just not attracted to me.

 

[klewlis]

stop asking them out!

you make it sound as though you are asking girls out every week. this is not good. it means that you are not being picky. start being picky. only ask her out if you know her well enough to consider her a potential future wife. raise your standards. think about exactly what you want in a wife, and don't ask anyone out who doesn't meet up--and if you don't know, WAIT. get to know her better.

 

[Saxman]

Well actually I have only asked out 5 girls over the last 2 years, but I heed your point. Maybe university isn' t the right place for me to meet the right girl.

 

[klewlis]

Well actually I have only asked out 5 girls over the last 2 years, but I heed your point. Maybe university isn' t the right place for me to meet the right girl.

oh, only 5. it sounded like a lot more from your posts. sorry about that.

university *can* be the right place... in fact it can be really good because you meet so many people there... once you are working and stuff you hardly meet anyone...

 

[HoosierCanuck]

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The same could be said for nice girls. It seems only the flashy bimbo type girls get bfs but I try not to let it bother me. I guess one day, there will be that special someone and then it will be obvious to both of you. Everything from now is a selection process. I think the best relationships develop out of friendships anyway.

I couldn't agree more. Of course, I wish I could FIND a NICE guy. Everyone around here (where I live!) is an abusive jerk.

 

[KeilCoppes]

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I couldn't agree more. Of course, I wish I could FIND a NICE guy. Everyone around here (where I live!) is an abusive jerk.

They're out there, but sometimes you have to go quite a bit farther afield beyond where you are! The rare things of life aren't necessarily found in the local supermarket!

 

[Carla4JC]

God bless you! Don't worry so much. Girls are not everything in this life. You should be thinking about pleasing God and giving him everything. Trust me,God has that special someone for you already. And that special someone is going to be good to you and not bring you down from God but bring oyu closer to God. Live your life fully to God and he will give you the desires of your heart. Good things come to those who wait paitiently on the Lord. God bless you and remember to pray.

 

[klewlis]

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I couldn't agree more. Of course, I wish I could FIND a NICE guy. Everyone around here (where I live!) is an abusive jerk.

I know *tons* of really great guys... some of them are truly amazing. So don't give up.

maybe you need to move to canada! canadian boys tend to be pretty well-bred (except those ontario boys... they still need some work

 

[HoosierCanuck]

Hi Klewlis, I'm frequently told that I need to move to Canada for various reasons! lol!! So, I TOTALLY agree with the moving to Canada part! lol!! I wish I could because I've been there many times and think it fits me quite nicely. ...and yes, I think Canadian men are waaaaaaaaaaay better (at least what I've 'observed'). lol! BC would be my first choice.

KeilCoppes...I'm pretty sure IF there is anyone nice left out there they will be found via travelling and/or the Net. I agree with you that the rare things of life aren't necessarily found in the local supermarket (although I used to like a guy that worked at the one near my house! lol!!)