Why do most christians not follow the 10 commandments?

[Doug Melven]

The Word of God is living. The Law is the Word of God, is it not?

No, the law is A word of God.
Equivalent to the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I am not exalting the tree of knowledge of good and evil,

Yes, you did.John 15:10, 1 John 3:23, John 14:15, John 1:1-5 are not referring to the 10 Commandments. You make the wrong assumption that whenever you see "law" or "commandment" you think it is referring to the 10 Commandments.
I will show you why this is wrong.
The 10 Commandments points out our sin. Jesus does not. John 5:45
The 10 Commandments condemns us as evildoers. Romans 3:19 Jesus does not condemn. John 3:17
The 10 Commandments cannot give life. Galatians 3:21 Jesus gives us life. John 10:10
The 10 Commandments are not eternal. Hebrews 8:13 Jesus is eternal Romans 9:5

You quoted Psalm 19:7 saying this referring to the 10 Commandments, but for the reasons I showed above, it can't be, because the law cannot give life, only Jesus can.

Answer these questions please.
Why does God say the law is not made for a righteous man? 1 Timothy 1
Why does God call the 10 Commandments a ministry of death and condemnation? 2 Corinthians 3
Why does God say to cast out the law given at Sinai? Galatians 4
Why does God say the law given at Sinai was a yoke of bondage? Galatians 5:1
Where did God ever say that doing your best to keep the law would be pleasing to Him?

 

[Kaon]

No, the law is A word of God.
Equivalent to the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Yes, you did.John 15:10, 1 John 3:23, John 14:15, John 1:1-5 are not referring to the 10 Commandments. You make the wrong assumption that whenever you see "law" or "commandment" you think it is referring to the 10 Commandments.
I will show you why this is wrong.
The 10 Commandments points out our sin. Jesus does not. John 5:45
The 10 Commandments condemns us as evildoers. Romans 3:19 Jesus does not condemn. John 3:17
The 10 Commandments cannot give life. Galatians 3:21 Jesus gives us life. John 10:10
The 10 Commandments are not eternal. Hebrews 8:13 Jesus is eternal Romans 9:5

You quoted Psalm 19:7 saying this referring to the 10 Commandments, but for the reasons I showed above, it can't be, because the law cannot give life, only Jesus can.

Answer these questions please.
Why does God say the law is not made for a righteous man? 1 Timothy 1
Why does God call the 10 Commandments a ministry of death and condemnation? 2 Corinthians 3
Why does God say to cast out the law given at Sinai? Galatians 4
Why does God say the law given at Sinai was a yoke of bondage? Galatians 5:1
Where did God ever say that doing your best to keep the law would be pleasing to Him?

I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[bugkiller]

No, the law is A word of God.
Equivalent to the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Yes, you did.John 15:10, 1 John 3:23, John 14:15, John 1:1-5 are not referring to the 10 Commandments. You make the wrong assumption that whenever you see "law" or "commandment" you think it is referring to the 10 Commandments.
I will show you why this is wrong.
The 10 Commandments points out our sin. Jesus does not. John 5:45
The 10 Commandments condemns us as evildoers. Romans 3:19 Jesus does not condemn. John 3:17
The 10 Commandments cannot give life. Galatians 3:21 Jesus gives us life. John 10:10
The 10 Commandments are not eternal. Hebrews 8:13 Jesus is eternal Romans 9:5

You quoted Psalm 19:7 saying this referring to the 10 Commandments, but for the reasons I showed above, it can't be, because the law cannot give life, only Jesus can.

Answer these questions please.
Why does God say the law is not made for a righteous man? 1 Timothy 1
Why does God call the 10 Commandments a ministry of death and condemnation? 2 Corinthians 3
Why does God say to cast out the law given at Sinai? Galatians 4
Why does God say the law given at Sinai was a yoke of bondage? Galatians 5:1
Where did God ever say that doing your best to keep the law would be pleasing to Him?

Careful we would not want any one to hurt their brain by thinking. I would also add Gal 4 which says to throw out the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I hope you find what you are looking for.

What makes you think he is looking for something?

bugkiller

 

[BukiRob]

if Jesus is always the same and thus makes us do the law then shouldn't we be keeping all 613 commands? but in the NT it explains that those in the spirit are not under the law because they have it written in their hearts and naturally fulfill it as much as they abide in Christ and not only fulfill but go far beyond.

With all due respect, you are conflating the law of sin and death with the Torah.

2 Peter warns us that Pauls teachings are "difficult to understand" There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

It is sheer folly to believe that we today, understand Paul. When the Jews who were believers DID NOT UNDERSTAND his teachings to think we do is the epitome of arrogance ACTS 22 makes clear that many of the believers of the day did not understand what Paul was teaching.

Paul was a BRILLIANT biblical scholar. As a young Jewish boy he learned at the feet of Gamaliel who is the grandson of Hillel who is considered to be one of the 4 greatest Jewish sages. It was rumored that in order to have been accepted as a student of Gamaliel you had to have already memorized vast amounts of the Torah.

To bring this in modern parlance, Paul would be like a Ph.D. at a university who would be considered one of the very top persons in his field. Much of his teaching preassumes you have a FIRM understand the basics of both the Torah (first 5 books) and the remaining part of the Tanakh (the writings and prophets)

It caused the Jews who James refers to as believers and were ZEALOUS FOR TORAH to misunderstand Paul and in error believe that Paul was teaching against Torah when in fact HE WAS NOT.

This error took root in the early church in Rome and in fact, we see the first fruit of this when Polycarp went to the bishop of the church in Rome over the Quartodecimanism

The church in Asia minor observed Passover on 14 Nisan as prescribed by the decree of scripture. While the church in Rome did not follow this.... this, of course, led to further separation from the roots culminating with the proclamations of Constantine
March, 321 A.D. This proclamation stated that the 1st day of the week (Sunday) was the day of rest and not, the 7th. the Catholic Church outlawed Sabbath keeping in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364) when they decreed 59 Canon laws:“Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be Judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.”

What we do know with absolute certainty is that all 12 of the apostles (INCLUDING PAUL) observed Sabbath and the feast days. There is very, very strong evidence that the body in Asia minor observed Sabbath and the Feast days up until ~400 AD.

 

[BukiRob]

What I am understanding is the 613 commandments apply only to Jewish people and not gentiles, at least that is what the Jews are telling me. Also the Sabbath is not a requirement for gentiles. Again, in this thread I am only looking into whether Jesus himself commanded us to observe the Sabbath. nothing more.

Nope, not even remotely close to being true. In fact, scripture itself says the exact opposite...

Repeatedly it is stated in the Torah that "there is 1 law. The law for you and the alien among you (Goy or the nations)

 

[BukiRob]

And who was the Ten Commandments, which are part of the Mosaic Covenant, made with? Best I can tell, it was Israel as a national covenant. Even those who were foreigners living in Israel were not required to observe all the commandments except those dealing with how others are treated.

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Ex: 12:49"The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." Lev 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"'

Deut 19:15"A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses, a matter shall be confirmed.

I've given you 3 witnesses. The Torah applied equally to the jew and the goy who was among them.

And being grafted into the root, as gentiles are regarding being in Messiah, does not mean that they are part of that national covenant. They have been grafted into the Abrahamic Covenant based on the faith of Abraham, which preceded the Mosaic Covenant. And even Shabbat... it is a memorial to the creation and a day of rest meant to be observed in the home. If one wanted to get downright technical, if one were to drive to a service on Shabbat, that would be in violation of the Law! One is not to kindle a fire on Shabbat. An internal combustion engine is igniting multiple fires. So if any one wants to be a stickler about Shabbat observance and attendance at service on Shabbat, they had better live within walking distance of the congregation meeting place. And even then, walking distance on Shabbat had its limits in the Law. It was in cubits, but essentially it is no more than 1000 yards. So if anyone violates these items, they are in violation of Shabbat. Neither of these falls within the prescription that preservation of life supersedes the commandments.

So while many who promote Shabbat observance want to pile on others for not doing so, they are violating the Shabbat in their own way. In trying to dig a pit for someone else, they inadvertently fall into the same pit they dug and have the same smorgasbord mentality as those they berate. "I'll have a little of this, but don't give me none of that". "Whatever makes me feel more righteous than my neighbor".

You clearly do not understand what to kindle a fire involves. Starting a fire with just the means they had was INTENSELY laborious. As anyone who is into serious survival bushwacking. The means by which they would have had to start a fire would have been friction. Even someone who is an expert will tell you it is a LOT of work. There is ZERO comparison to pushing a button (or turning a key) and what would have been required to kindle a fire.

The distance one could walk was not 1,000 cubits it was 2,000 or ~ 1 kilometer. How far am I allowed to walk on Shabbat?
What is a Sabbath day's walk?

You make some serious assumptions in much of this portion of your post. You assume that those who advocate obeying scripture are "digging a pit"

What I advocate is obeying what is clear in scripture. What I reject are the traditions of man when they attempt to place those things in front of what scripture states and the clear heart behind what is being decreed.

Sabbath was made for MAN and NOT the man for Sabbath! The idea that pushing a button or turning a key is kindling a fire is patently ABSURD. Right up there with flipping on or off a light switch.

The heart of Sabbath is that we are to REST from WORK and focus on G-d and our families. When you start stacking rules and traditions on top of what scripture is saying when rightly understood then you create a list and make Sabbath a bondage instead of what it is intended to be, a joy.

To summarize to kindle a fire: you first had to gather the firewood and if the fire is going to burn for any length of time you needed a substantial amount. You then had to separate the wood into 3 categories, kindling, tender and the remaining firewood. Once you've done that you had to prepare the base block which would take several minutes to cut the notches needed for air to circulate to create the ember that would hopefully start your fire.

As you can see there is a LOT that is involved in comparison to turning a key or pushing a button (new cars)

 

[BukiRob]

The ten suggestions are part of 613 laws in the Torah Alone. These laws leads to spiritual death. The new law of Love that Jesus gave us gives us life. So, choose this day, death or life?

Boy, is that wrong. The new covenant is spoken of by the prophets when it states: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You are conflating the law of Sin and death with the Torah.

"Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live...

"All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply...

Then he taught me and said to me, "Let your heart hold fast my words; Keep my commandments and live;

Keep my commandments and live, And my teaching as the apple of your eye.

And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances, By which if a man observes them he shall live And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.

"I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.

There are more but since a matter is established on the witness of two or more.... well, hopefully, you get the point. Torah is LIFE not death!

 

[bugkiller]

With all due respect, you are conflating the law of sin and death with the Torah.

2 Peter warns us that Pauls teachings are "difficult to understand" There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

It is sheer folly to believe that we today, understand Paul. When the Jews who were believers DID NOT UNDERSTAND his teachings to think we do is the epitome of arrogance ACTS 22 makes clear that many of the believers of the day did not understand what Paul was teaching.

Paul was a BRILLIANT biblical scholar. As a young Jewish boy he learned at the feet of Gamaliel who is the grandson of Hillel who is considered to be one of the 4 greatest Jewish sages. It was rumored that in order to have been accepted as a student of Gamaliel you had to have already memorized vast amounts of the Torah.

To bring this in modern parlance, Paul would be like a Ph.D. at a university who would be considered one of the very top persons in his field. Much of his teaching preassumes you have a FIRM understand the basics of both the Torah (first 5 books) and the remaining part of the Tanakh (the writings and prophets)

It caused the Jews who James refers to as believers and were ZEALOUS FOR TORAH to misunderstand Paul and in error believe that Paul was teaching against Torah when in fact HE WAS NOT.

This error took root in the early church in Rome and in fact, we see the first fruit of this when Polycarp went to the bishop of the church in Rome over the Quartodecimanism

The church in Asia minor observed Passover on 14 Nisan as prescribed by the decree of scripture. While the church in Rome did not follow this.... this, of course, led to further separation from the roots culminating with the proclamations of Constantine
March, 321 A.D. This proclamation stated that the 1st day of the week (Sunday) was the day of rest and not, the 7th. the Catholic Church outlawed Sabbath keeping in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364) when they decreed 59 Canon laws:“Christians must not Judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honoring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be Judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.”

What we do know with absolute certainty is that all 12 of the apostles (INCLUDING PAUL) observed Sabbath and the feast days. There is very, very strong evidence that the body in Asia minor observed Sabbath and the Feast days up until ~400 AD.

Maybe Peter should have said the same about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Nope, not even remotely close to being true. In fact, scripture itself says the exact opposite...

Repeatedly it is stated in the Torah that "there is 1 law. The law for you and the alien among you (Goy or the nations)

But you seem to notice even what you said. I am not an alien in Israel. So what you said does not apply. Jews are aliens in my goy country.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

How do you arrive at that conclusion? Ex: 12:49"The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." Lev 24:22 'There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the LORD your God.'" Numbers 15:16 'There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.'"'

As long as you wish to ignore the Scripture you post anything you post has no value.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Boy, is that wrong. The new covenant is spoken of by the prophets when it states: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Have read the Gospels and Acts? They disagree with your premise.

bugkiller

 

[listed]

You are as clear as thick clay mud. I think you are saying we are obligated to the 10 Cs. Is my understanding correct on this?

bugkiller

I think it is.

 

[ralliann]

I agree that there are instances where sin has a collective nature, but I don't see any reason to think that it is possible for an individual, but not possible for a collective. A community can't be held responsible for failing to meet an impossible standard any more than an individual can, so if it were impossible for a community, then the fault would not lie with the community, but with God, but God said that it was not too difficult, and indeed it is not.

It is impossible..................................................
Well, what is the day of Atonement? Yom kippur. This is the one day in the year given for atonement on a national level.
As Hebrews says..
9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

 

[BukiRob]

It is impossible..................................................
Well, what is the day of Atonement? Yom kippur. This is the one day in the year given for atonement on a national level.
As Hebrews says..
9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

I see, so what you are really saying is that G-d is a liar?

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

You're conflating the sin sacrifice with the rest of Torah which is the instruction manual on how to walk upright before Adonai.

At the very root of your entire argument is an attempt to conflate observance with salvation and it is the most commonly erroneous argument that "Christians" make to justify "doing right in their own eyes."

At the end of the day if you Agree that the believer should obey the 10 commandments then you are picking and choosing which part of the Torah you will obey, and which parts you will reject.

The Tanakh makes CRYSTAL CLEAR that the "new covenant" is the Torah written in your mind and upon your heart.... there is NO ESCAPING that reality.

 

[klutedavid]

Boy, is that wrong. The new covenant is spoken of by the prophets when it states: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You are conflating the law of Sin and death with the Torah.

"Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live...

"All the commandments that I am commanding you today you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply...

Then he taught me and said to me, "Let your heart hold fast my words; Keep my commandments and live;

Keep my commandments and live, And my teaching as the apple of your eye.

And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances, By which if a man observes them he shall live And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.

"I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.

There are more but since a matter is established on the witness of two or more.... well, hopefully, you get the point. Torah is LIFE not death!

The law was given to the Jews to show them that they were not good people.

The law was not an entry ticket to heaven.

The law is for liars, swindlers, sorcerers, murderers and adulterers.

Good people have no need of any law.

There was never a Jew found that could obey the law, except of course for the messiah.

Not even Moses succeeded in his obedience, Moses was not permitted to see the holy land.

I do not think any of the apostles would have called themselves, a lawful people.

I do believe the apostles would have called themselves, the forgiven people.

 

[ralliann]

I see, so what you are really saying is that G-d is a liar?

This is untrue. We have different understandings, one of which is Deuteronomy 30 speaks prophetically. When he circumcises their hearts. It is according to God's faithfulness (his righteousness) to their fathers in the covenant 430 years before the law
Deut 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
See the prophetic utterance of this in
De 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Deuteronomy 30:11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.

The commandment concerns future events......after curses and blessing.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You're conflating the sin sacrifice with the rest of Torah which is the instruction manual on how to walk upright before Adonai.'

It is not your own righteousness which is by the law.

De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

But the Lord's righteousness in keeping his promises. His faithfulness.

De 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5 Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

6 Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

At the very root of your entire argument is an attempt to conflate observance with salvation and it is the most commonly erroneous argument that "Christians" make to justify "doing right in their own eyes."

wages of sin is death............How then do you live as De 30 says without being saved from it.

Ro 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
See the above.....
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.​

Do not be surprised if I refrain from responding to any more posts such as this. It is one thing to disagree. It is another to attempt to reason with railing accusations.

 

[Soyeong]

It is impossible..................................................
Well, what is the day of Atonement? Yom kippur. This is the one day in the year given for atonement on a national level.
As Hebrews says..
9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

I do not see how those verses establish that God lied about it being possible.

 

[ralliann]

I do not see how those verses establish that God lied about it being possible.

I will ignore the accusation about God lying. Nor ask is Joshua lying.
What are you saying is possible
That Israel as a nation can be obedient to all the law?

It takes a village.
The law of Moses concerns carnal elements, commandments which by it's very nature cannot be fulfilled by one person or group of persons. these groups cannot fulfill the laws given another group. Nor can one fulfill a law for another
Laws for the priests to keep and do (genealogical) Levites vs Sons of Aaron
Laws for women ( which vary depending on their circumstance)
Laws for men
Law for kings
Law even for children......
Therefore the whole of the people, AKA Israel must do according commands assigned to their carnal status.
Are you denying the day of atonement concerns the nation as a collective?
Christ had works of law which no other man was given to perform.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
So what is it you say is possible?

 

[BukiRob]

The law was given to the Jews to show them that they were not good people.

The law was not an entry ticket to heaven.

The law is for liars, swindlers, sorcerers, murderers and adulterers.

Good people have no need of any law.

There was never a Jew found that could obey the law, except of course for the messiah.

Not even Moses succeeded in his obedience, Moses was not permitted to see the holy land.

I do not think any of the apostles would have called themselves, a lawful people.

I do believe the apostles would have called themselves, the forgiven people.

Pssst... you fail in obedience every single day.



It NEVER ceases to amaze me how frequently people try to link obedience, observing Torah, with an attempt to earn salvation.

It was not true in Moche's day and its not true today.

Please, do cite me a verse ANY VERSE that states that walking in the Torah= Salvation.

Abraham believed G-d and it was credited to him as righteousness. FAITH and trusting in Adonai promise of redemption is what led to salvation before Messiah came. FAITH in Messiah during his ministry and after are what save today.

Torah is about WALKING UPRIGHT in OBEDIENCE. Nothing more, nothing less