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LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?
- Thread starter ToBeLoved
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I want to know too.
What specifically about the text he JD listed in the creed do you find untrue?
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No. No one has time to go through that big thread, plus I am not going to read through all that bitterness.
Nope
I've had enough hate for the next 6 months.
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John Davidson
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I see my question is still being avoided.
Is it possibly because you can't find anything "abominable" about the Apostles Creed?
I ask you again. What specifically do LDS find abominable about the Apostle's Creed?
Is it possibly because you can't find anything "abominable" about the Apostles Creed?
I ask you again. What specifically do LDS find abominable about the Apostle's Creed?
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John Davidson
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I also like this one:
Joseph Smith said, "There professors are all corrupt".
Meaning all the Pastors were evil.
Joseph Smith said, "There professors are all corrupt".
Meaning all the Pastors were evil.
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And I will tell you again that there's an entire thread on it, which has been link to you twice now. Help yourself, and I have zero interest in repeating myself.
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John Davidson
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brother.
I'm sending you a big, virtual cake with lots of frosting! Your my hero
Ha Ha.....God bless....
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John Davidson
Well-Known Member
I've read your thread and didn't find a direct answer to my question.
So, I'd like a direct and concise answer here and now to why the Apostle's Creed is specifically abominable?
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John Davidson
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She is dodging the question. The Apostle's Creed is pure scripture so it's pretty hard to refute.
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Marketing 101 time, I take it.
"When attempting to sell someone on a concept, idea, or product, never go 100% negative on the competition. Always take at least some time to promote your own material. Otherwise, you risk alienating the people you are trying to win over."
A very clear example of this in the theological realm happened back during the 1800s. J. Golden Kimball was a senior leader in the church's missionary efforts in the Southern United States during the post-Reconstruction period, and so he became a figurehead for what was happening. During a previous missionary effort, he had encountered a Reverend Weatherbee, a minister who was famous throughout the region for his fire-and-brimstone sermons and his unflinching views on anyone who disagreed with him.
Naturally, when the pair were scheduled to debate one another in public, it drew quite the crowd.
Weatherbee went first. His entire debate strategy was thus: make a statement of faint praise, then say "...but they're going to Hell" after it. "Mormons are good people, but they're going to Hell." "My opponent is a good person, but he's going to Hell." Et cetra.
Weatherbee continued this line of sermonizing for two hours, never once varying from his mantra of "...but they're going to Hell."
In response to this barrage, Kimball had just one thing to say: "I'd rather be a Mormon and go to Hell than not be a Mormon and not know where the [censored] I'm going."
The audience, it is reported, unanimously declared Kimball the winner of the debate.
Why?
Weatherbee spent two hours saying nothing. Whatever truth he may have had never crossed his lips because he was too busy making blanket denunciations. As such, his words were as sounding brass like Paul warned of. But Kimball took one sentence to explain that he found something he regarded as being of such value and with such a guiding light that he was willing to stake eternity on it.
Thus, the ultimate net effect of Weatherbee's actions was to make it easier for Kimball and the missionaries he was in charge of to spread the gospel and gather converts.
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No, what we're seeing is the same tired old arguments being trotted out for the nth time.
I'd suggest putting away the Ed Decker and picking up the C. S. Lewis for a while.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
I've brought this up before, and was rather disheartened by the response.
Even though this is an official, formative creed of mainline Christianity,
1. Few posters here had even heard of it
2. Fewer still could make sense of it.
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Do you really want to push this point?
The Apostles' Creed is just so much formulaic legalese, and as such is nothing more than a bloody shirt that so many of your predecessors have raised whenever the issue of the creeds is brought up.
In fact, it's the only creed most mainline Christians ever bring up.
Couple this with the lack of knowledge displayed about the Athanasian Creed, and I find myself wondering just how often these supposedly key and foundational materials are still being taught.
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I think we can bring in the creeds and professors here in that the thread is about the apostasy and these creeds are part of symptom of it . By 'professors' I believe he meant the professionals which one must give. This definition comes from the 1828 Websters dictionary ;
PROFESS'OR, noun [Latin] One who makes open declaration of his sentiments or opinions; particularly, one who makes a public avowal of his belief in the Scriptures and his faith in Christ, and thus unites himself to the visible church.
Joseph was told with a quote which uses Isiah 29 and 2Tim
"....that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
People were told that had to profess these professionals in order to join certain churches, these professionals have a form of godliness but teach doctrines of men. I'll be looking at them in my posting tomorrow.
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Okay here we go with my long awaited long version. I've gone over and over it but I'm dyslexic and I spell so badly my word prepossess gets confused. Without my good hubby who can spell anything by my side we would all be very lost. I also skip words and arrange them in strange orders so if I come in and edit here and there don't be surprised.
I’m going to open with two passages and a question
Acts 3
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
If there was no apostasy then why a restitution, why would the gospel need to be preached to every nation???
My thesis here is built on William Barclay’s translation of the New Testament, 2 Thess 2. In this Paul prophesies of the future apostasy. The moment I read this a light turned on and I understood.
"Brothers, in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and in regard to our being gathered to him, …Let no one deceive you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come unless there comes first The Rebellion against God, and unless there be revealed The Man of Sin, The Son of Perdition, the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God or made an object of worship so that he attempts to take his seat in the very temple of God and proclaims that he himself is God. Don't you remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? As for the present, you know the power which restrains him so that he may be revealed in his own time. For the secret of lawlessness is even now in operation. But The Man of Sin will appear only when the one who restrains him is removed from the scene. And then The Lawless One will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will render him ineffective by his appearance and his coming. The coming of The Lawless One is for those who are doomed. He will come according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and wonders which issue from falsehood, and with all wicked deceit. They are doomed because they did not receive the love of truth that they might be saved. For this cause God sends them a deceiving energy in order that they might believe in a lie so that all who have not believed but have consented to that principle of unrighteousness may be judged."
First question; when will this rebellion happen
Second question; what is the power which restrains
Third question; what lawlessness was in operation
Forth ; who is the one who is restraining him and when was he removed from the scene
Fifth question; who consented to that principle of unrighteousness
(I noticed by the time I get to the end of this I’ve rearranged these)
I’ve broken this into several different sections just because it’s easier for me to keep my train of thought going. I’m putting a little * by each new thought to help us all with the flow.
*Section 1, the Old Testament Prophecies
We’ll start with Gen 6
“And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man…”
There are times because of wickedness and unbelief God’s spirit will pull away from mankind.
A great deal of this is wrapped up in the promises and warnings to Israel of their scattering and gathering. In Deut 4 the Lord warns Israel that if they are not obedient they will be scattered.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
So at some point in time they (all of Israel) will eventually be scattered and there will be false doctrines taught about God which they will accept and believe.
And then he gives them a promise
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
So at some future point when they are in tribulation in ‘the latter days’ the knowledge of truth will be restored along with the covenant made to their fathers, not the covenant and law of Moses but the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are different!
This goes back to my initial question why would a restitution need to be made if all truth is here??
*Understanding the different idioms and allegories which the Lord uses is important.
*The first is food and drink
Isa 29
And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
Over the thousands of years since Isaiah gave this prophecy a multitude of nations have fought Israel. He speaks of a time that will be like a dream
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:
We can dream about eating but dreams are not real,
so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion. Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
So there will come a day when men will stagger from a lack of prophets to show the way.
Amos 8 uses a similar allegory use food and drink.
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”
A time when the word of God would not be heard no matter where men wandered to they will not find it!
* second idiom Amos uses is in verse 9 Amos writes;
“ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day”
Noon is the middle of the day, a clear day is a day when truth is given to the world. Jesus came in the meridian of time bring truth to the world, but then the sun goes down and the earth is darkened.
You’ll find the same thing Micah 3
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
The concept is that there would be a time when there would be false prophets therefore there would be no real prophets, the spirit of the Lord would ceases to strive with man.
*Amos uses third allegory to describe this time; Flood
“Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.”
This flood allegory is used two other times in the Bible
In Dan 9 he talks of the death of Jesus and the fall of the temple, so it was to take place in 70 ad.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Jesus refers to this quote from Daniel in Matt 24 when he is taking about the destruction of the temple. This isn’t a flood of water but a flood of evil and overspreading of abomination.
The next time we find this is in Rev 12-13 where it speaks of the war in heaven and Satan being cast to the earth. The woman represents the church
"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time…. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ…..And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
*So let’s recap here, our first questions have begun to be answered.
The Lord has said he will not always strive with men, his prophets prophesied that one day there would be a day of famine, of hearing the words of the Lord.
This day is not some future event of rebellion but would start in 70 ad with the fall of the temple. Satan would be given a certain amount of time to have power over all kindreds and tongues and nations. And most importantly the Church would be taken into the wilderness for a season.
* This next little section which I’m inserting here is important in understand their intent about the timing.
The writer of Hebrews uses some timing terminology; God, who at sundry times … spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son"
With the phrase ‘in the last days’ he meant right then and not some future event. (It’s the reason we know this was written shortly after Jesus died and not much later as some who try and disparage the Bible claim)
Each apostle uses some slightly different phrase but mean the same thing; "and then shall the end come", "we know that it is the last time", "in the last days scoffers" , "in the last days perilous times"
They were all referring to the fall of the Temple and the end of the temple sacrifice as Jesus said in Matt 24.
They were in ‘the last days’ of their times, the last days before Israel would be scattered and the end to "the power which restrains him" and the beginning of "overspreading of abominations". A time where Satan would be given the given power to "make war with the saints, to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Rev 13*
I’m going to open with two passages and a question
Acts 3
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
If there was no apostasy then why a restitution, why would the gospel need to be preached to every nation???
My thesis here is built on William Barclay’s translation of the New Testament, 2 Thess 2. In this Paul prophesies of the future apostasy. The moment I read this a light turned on and I understood.
"Brothers, in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and in regard to our being gathered to him, …Let no one deceive you in any way. The Day of the Lord will not come unless there comes first The Rebellion against God, and unless there be revealed The Man of Sin, The Son of Perdition, the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God or made an object of worship so that he attempts to take his seat in the very temple of God and proclaims that he himself is God. Don't you remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? As for the present, you know the power which restrains him so that he may be revealed in his own time. For the secret of lawlessness is even now in operation. But The Man of Sin will appear only when the one who restrains him is removed from the scene. And then The Lawless One will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of his mouth and will render him ineffective by his appearance and his coming. The coming of The Lawless One is for those who are doomed. He will come according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and wonders which issue from falsehood, and with all wicked deceit. They are doomed because they did not receive the love of truth that they might be saved. For this cause God sends them a deceiving energy in order that they might believe in a lie so that all who have not believed but have consented to that principle of unrighteousness may be judged."
First question; when will this rebellion happen
Second question; what is the power which restrains
Third question; what lawlessness was in operation
Forth ; who is the one who is restraining him and when was he removed from the scene
Fifth question; who consented to that principle of unrighteousness
(I noticed by the time I get to the end of this I’ve rearranged these)
I’ve broken this into several different sections just because it’s easier for me to keep my train of thought going. I’m putting a little * by each new thought to help us all with the flow.
*Section 1, the Old Testament Prophecies
We’ll start with Gen 6
“And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man…”
There are times because of wickedness and unbelief God’s spirit will pull away from mankind.
A great deal of this is wrapped up in the promises and warnings to Israel of their scattering and gathering. In Deut 4 the Lord warns Israel that if they are not obedient they will be scattered.
27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
So at some point in time they (all of Israel) will eventually be scattered and there will be false doctrines taught about God which they will accept and believe.
And then he gives them a promise
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.So at some future point when they are in tribulation in ‘the latter days’ the knowledge of truth will be restored along with the covenant made to their fathers, not the covenant and law of Moses but the covenant made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They are different!
This goes back to my initial question why would a restitution need to be made if all truth is here??
*Understanding the different idioms and allegories which the Lord uses is important.
*The first is food and drink
Isa 29
And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
Over the thousands of years since Isaiah gave this prophecy a multitude of nations have fought Israel. He speaks of a time that will be like a dream
8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite:
We can dream about eating but dreams are not real,
so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion. Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
So there will come a day when men will stagger from a lack of prophets to show the way.
Amos 8 uses a similar allegory use food and drink.
“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.”
A time when the word of God would not be heard no matter where men wandered to they will not find it!
* second idiom Amos uses is in verse 9 Amos writes;
“ And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day”
Noon is the middle of the day, a clear day is a day when truth is given to the world. Jesus came in the meridian of time bring truth to the world, but then the sun goes down and the earth is darkened.
You’ll find the same thing Micah 3
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that make my people err, that bite with their teeth, and cry, Peace; and he that putteth not into their mouths, they even prepare war against him.
6 Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them.
The concept is that there would be a time when there would be false prophets therefore there would be no real prophets, the spirit of the Lord would ceases to strive with man.
*Amos uses third allegory to describe this time; Flood
“Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.”
This flood allegory is used two other times in the Bible
In Dan 9 he talks of the death of Jesus and the fall of the temple, so it was to take place in 70 ad.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Jesus refers to this quote from Daniel in Matt 24 when he is taking about the destruction of the temple. This isn’t a flood of water but a flood of evil and overspreading of abomination.
The next time we find this is in Rev 12-13 where it speaks of the war in heaven and Satan being cast to the earth. The woman represents the church
"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time…. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ…..And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.”
*So let’s recap here, our first questions have begun to be answered.
The Lord has said he will not always strive with men, his prophets prophesied that one day there would be a day of famine, of hearing the words of the Lord.
This day is not some future event of rebellion but would start in 70 ad with the fall of the temple. Satan would be given a certain amount of time to have power over all kindreds and tongues and nations. And most importantly the Church would be taken into the wilderness for a season.
* This next little section which I’m inserting here is important in understand their intent about the timing.
The writer of Hebrews uses some timing terminology; God, who at sundry times … spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son"
With the phrase ‘in the last days’ he meant right then and not some future event. (It’s the reason we know this was written shortly after Jesus died and not much later as some who try and disparage the Bible claim)
Each apostle uses some slightly different phrase but mean the same thing; "and then shall the end come", "we know that it is the last time", "in the last days scoffers" , "in the last days perilous times"
They were all referring to the fall of the Temple and the end of the temple sacrifice as Jesus said in Matt 24.
They were in ‘the last days’ of their times, the last days before Israel would be scattered and the end to "the power which restrains him" and the beginning of "overspreading of abominations". A time where Satan would be given the given power to "make war with the saints, to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Rev 13*
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*Section 2, Now we are going to look at Matt 24. Jesus tells his Apostles the temple will be destroyed and they ask three questions
Tell us,
1, when shall these things be? (the fall of the temple)
2, what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3, and of the end of the world?
These are three specific distinctly different events.
*The answer to the first question are found in verses 4-20. The important elements to understand the Apostasy are;
9, Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The Gospel being preached ‘to all the world’ is an idiom which meant Roman. Roman was the world and all roads lead to it. When Peter & Paul preached in Rome they fulfilled that part of the prophecy. Peter died 5 years before the temple was destroyed and the over spreading of abomination began. The Apostles were all killed sometime before 70 ad. So that fulfills verses 9 & 14 of Jesus prophecy.
*Now we need to look at verse 11 of Jesus prophecy, did it come to pass?
Paul warned the Elders of the Church with this prophecy.
Act 20
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
So the false prophets were to arise from within the church, these are those Paul spoke of who “who have not believed but have consented to that principle of unrighteousness…”. They have not really understood the truth, in fact they reject the truth.
In James 4
" 1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts….
James is addressing a group of men who are arguing over Gospel questions probably much like they did at the council of Nicaea with the Arian controversy. I’m not sure he is calling them actual adulterers but that he is using the term "adulterers’ as an idiom for they are "double minded" and prideful men, ‘I’m right and your wrong!’ kind of thinking. He admonished them “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering” but because of their pride they asked a miss.
To me they were asking Lord ‘let so and so know I’m right!’ rather than ‘Lord help me understand the truth of all things’.
John confirms this happening in 1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
His complainant is they are denying that Jesus is the Son of God and Peter confirms this;
And Peter in 2Peter 1-2
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
The false prophets led Israel into apostasy so that they worshipped the “daughter of a strange god” Mal 2. This is the god many of the Jews were worshipping at the time of Jesus.
Jude
"….it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and…"
Jude seems to be dealing more with some sexual sins which were creeping in, ‘we live under grace so let’s sins some more’ kind of thinking.
* Here are some examples of Paul’s fight against these false prophets
Titus 1
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses,
1Cor 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment…..Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Gal 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Note that it is the gospel perverted, yes they still were teaching Jesus but with a twist, which takes us back to Isa 29 . At the time that the book is delivered to the unlearned man it says
“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:”
Isn’t this what Christianity has done for generations; taught of a god of hell fire and damnation.
*In the letters to Timothy Paul draws on this knowledge of the apostasy throughout them, he is deeply worried that Timothy as young as he was will also fall into this apostasy.
1 Tim
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
By fables and endless genealogies means the teachings of Gnostics and their order of eons plus there is this Jewish law being added in.
There have always been men who desire to be teachers who think they have a better way, they falsely lay claim to be teachers and preachers of the gospel.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
He is very worried about Timothy will also follow this false doctrine. Then he give a another list of false doctrines
1, Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Tim 6
2.….These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
In 2 Timothy he starts in again and tells us that the apostasy is well on it’s way.
2Tim 1
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;
In chapter 2 he warns about “ foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes….”
Chapter 3
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,…Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
There is that ‘power’ again, denying the power of God. False teachers and prophets will obviously deny “the power” of God because they don’t have it. Remember Paul said the “….the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God ….you know the power which restrains him …. But The Man of Sin will appear only when the one who restrains him is removed from the scene.”
In the JKV it reads; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped..
I think the intent is anything that represents the truth of God, he opposes all truth and God himself.
*In Matt 9 Jesus heals a man and when the multitude see it “they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.” In the next chapter he gives this power to his Apostles;
“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.” Matt 10
This was a very real power, the power to command a healing but also the power against Satan and his angels* This point is important to our discussion, it is the power which restrains Satan.
Paul is telling Timothy that “in the last days” this power will be denied or just plain forgotten.
Now the last line there “the one who restrains him is removed from the scene”. It was Peter who held the keys and power to bind on earth and this power over Satan. When he died the priesthood power went with him.
Moving on with Tim 3
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth….Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived….. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
That time came with the formation of the Trinity concept which we will discus later.
So let’s recap again;
The Apostles were told they would be killed which happened before 70ad.
Jesus prophecies that even before their deaths false teachers and prophets would arise; Peter, John, James, Jude and Paul all attest this to be true and happening in their time.
Tell us,
1, when shall these things be? (the fall of the temple)
2, what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3, and of the end of the world?
These are three specific distinctly different events.
*The answer to the first question are found in verses 4-20. The important elements to understand the Apostasy are;
9, Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The Gospel being preached ‘to all the world’ is an idiom which meant Roman. Roman was the world and all roads lead to it. When Peter & Paul preached in Rome they fulfilled that part of the prophecy. Peter died 5 years before the temple was destroyed and the over spreading of abomination began. The Apostles were all killed sometime before 70 ad. So that fulfills verses 9 & 14 of Jesus prophecy.
*Now we need to look at verse 11 of Jesus prophecy, did it come to pass?
Paul warned the Elders of the Church with this prophecy.
Act 20
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
So the false prophets were to arise from within the church, these are those Paul spoke of who “who have not believed but have consented to that principle of unrighteousness…”. They have not really understood the truth, in fact they reject the truth.
In James 4
" 1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts….
James is addressing a group of men who are arguing over Gospel questions probably much like they did at the council of Nicaea with the Arian controversy. I’m not sure he is calling them actual adulterers but that he is using the term "adulterers’ as an idiom for they are "double minded" and prideful men, ‘I’m right and your wrong!’ kind of thinking. He admonished them “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering” but because of their pride they asked a miss.
To me they were asking Lord ‘let so and so know I’m right!’ rather than ‘Lord help me understand the truth of all things’.
John confirms this happening in 1 John 2:18
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
His complainant is they are denying that Jesus is the Son of God and Peter confirms this;
And Peter in 2Peter 1-2
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
The false prophets led Israel into apostasy so that they worshipped the “daughter of a strange god” Mal 2. This is the god many of the Jews were worshipping at the time of Jesus.
Jude
"….it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and…"
Jude seems to be dealing more with some sexual sins which were creeping in, ‘we live under grace so let’s sins some more’ kind of thinking.
* Here are some examples of Paul’s fight against these false prophets
Titus 1
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses,
1Cor 1
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment…..Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Gal 1:6
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Note that it is the gospel perverted, yes they still were teaching Jesus but with a twist, which takes us back to Isa 29 . At the time that the book is delivered to the unlearned man it says
“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:”
Isn’t this what Christianity has done for generations; taught of a god of hell fire and damnation.
*In the letters to Timothy Paul draws on this knowledge of the apostasy throughout them, he is deeply worried that Timothy as young as he was will also fall into this apostasy.
1 Tim
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
By fables and endless genealogies means the teachings of Gnostics and their order of eons plus there is this Jewish law being added in.
There have always been men who desire to be teachers who think they have a better way, they falsely lay claim to be teachers and preachers of the gospel.
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
He is very worried about Timothy will also follow this false doctrine. Then he give a another list of false doctrines
1, Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Tim 6
2.….These things teach and exhort.
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
In 2 Timothy he starts in again and tells us that the apostasy is well on it’s way.
2Tim 1
13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;
In chapter 2 he warns about “ foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes….”
Chapter 3
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,…Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
There is that ‘power’ again, denying the power of God. False teachers and prophets will obviously deny “the power” of God because they don’t have it. Remember Paul said the “….the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God ….you know the power which restrains him …. But The Man of Sin will appear only when the one who restrains him is removed from the scene.”
In the JKV it reads; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped..
I think the intent is anything that represents the truth of God, he opposes all truth and God himself.
*In Matt 9 Jesus heals a man and when the multitude see it “they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.” In the next chapter he gives this power to his Apostles;
“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.” Matt 10
This was a very real power, the power to command a healing but also the power against Satan and his angels* This point is important to our discussion, it is the power which restrains Satan.
Paul is telling Timothy that “in the last days” this power will be denied or just plain forgotten.
Now the last line there “the one who restrains him is removed from the scene”. It was Peter who held the keys and power to bind on earth and this power over Satan. When he died the priesthood power went with him.
Moving on with Tim 3
For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth….Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived….. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
That time came with the formation of the Trinity concept which we will discus later.
So let’s recap again;
The Apostles were told they would be killed which happened before 70ad.
Jesus prophecies that even before their deaths false teachers and prophets would arise; Peter, John, James, Jude and Paul all attest this to be true and happening in their time.
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*Part 3 and almost done
Back to Matt 24 & add in a little of Rev 13, we’ll be looking at verses 21 -28.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
*Who are the elect ?
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name
And in some ways the saints of the early church are in that group as they are adopted or “wert grafted in among them” Rom 11. So during this first time of tribulation the elect would be there, remember back in Deut 4 they were told
"27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
*So what kind of tribulation can that be? Daniel, Amos and John the Revelator described as a flood.
In Rev 13 the great beast represents all worldly power controlled by Satan which would fight against God.
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
There is a clue which give a time period
"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
According to William Barclay that number is a Hebrew letter number which stands for Nero who was alive and kicking when both John and Paul were writing.
Back to 2 Thess 2 “…the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God or made an object of worship so that he attempts to take his seat in the very temple of God and proclaims that he himself is God…. For the secret of lawlessness is even now in operation”
Nero was an extremely evil man who finally committed suicide 68ad. He was the last of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, his death sent Rome into a short civil war when the Flavians rise to power. It was Titus who entered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple, he was later deified by the Roman senate. This is what Paul and John and Daniel 11 is talking about.
“36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.”
I have here a short list of the persecutions/tribulations which came upon the Jews/elect
When Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70ad it is said they killed over a million people and enslaved another 100,000.
In 115 ad there was the Kitos Wars and several hundreds of thousands more of the elect were killed.
In 132 ad about 500,000 Jews were killed, thousands more were sold into in slavery. The Christians didn’t treat them any better and there is a long history of persecution starting in the burning of synagogues and the denial of human rights.
When Rome fell in 600 ad it left the world without any presiding authority. It was more of that “secret of lawlessness”. Eventually Europe formed city states which warred against each other.
The Catholic church became a recognized authority in Europe, they dictated what was Gospel and what wasn’t, you had to accept their Trinity or literally be burned at the stake, the real knowledge of God was lost.
Islam began its rise in the Middle East and reached Spain by 700ad.They are anti Christ and forced many Christians and Jews to convert. Charlemagne began his rise, being crowed Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 800 ad. The Crusades started in 1096 which led to a massive slaughter of Jews once again, whole villages of Jews were wiped out. If you read though the history of this time period it’s one bloody battle after another.
It all culminates with the Black Death appearing on the scene in 1331 with an estimate 25 million Chinese dieing before it ever appeared in Constantinople in 1347. India was basically depopulated. It spread rabidly across the middle east up into Europe and reached England by 1348. France and Spain lost nearly 80% of their population, Germany and England more like 20%. Paris lost 100,000 people in four years, Florence 120,000.
Once again the Jews were singled out for persecution, since they couldn’t explain what was happening it just had to be the Jews fault even though they suffered from the plague just as much as everyone else. By 1351 100s of Jewish communities were completely destroyed. Waves of the plague continued to make rounds across Europe. If this had not come to an end “there should no flesh be saved”.
We don’t call those medieval times the dark ages for nothing, they were a dark and terrible time.
I believe the days of tribulation lasted from 70 ad to about the 1400s when the printing press was developed and the Bible could be published so that the common man could own and read one. I don’t mean the persecution or tribulation for the Jews ever stopped but there began to be a change or as the world calls it an enlightenment. The Spirit of the Lord began to once again move among men. In 1518 Martin Luther and others began to recognized that the ‘Universal Church’ had lost its way. The Americas began to be open and freedom of religion was the outcome.
Jesus said of this tribulation time;
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
He is repeating what Amos said;
11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
Now I’m going to end this here because the next part of Matt 24 is about the restoration of the Gospel.
*So a final recap by looking at the initial questions we asked about 2Thess 2
There was an on going prophecy of a falling away, a rebellion, a time of wandering from sea to sea and not being able to find the words of the Lord. The apostles of Jesus day saw it happening before their eyes.
First question; when will this rebellion happen
The answer is at the fall of the temple in which occurred in 70 ad
Next question; what is the power which restrains
It is the power of God , Rom 13
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
That power or the power to act in the name of God was given to Jesus Apostles, Peter being the chief Apostles. He had the power to restrain Satan.
Forth ; who is the one who is restraining him and when was he removed from the scene
It was Peter acting as the chief Apostles and the Power of God which Jesus gave him, once he died and the priesthood was removed from the earth Satan was no longer restrained and began his rule.
Third question; what lawlessness was in operation
It was the world dominated and controlled by Satan.
And then that last line, who consented to that principle of unrighteousness
Paul, John, Jude, James and Peter all said the corruption came from within, it was the leaders who became false prophets and teachers.
I feel like have shown Biblically that the apostasy was both prophesied about and did happen. In my next installment I will discuss what the main point of the apostasy was, the Trinity.
Back to Matt 24 & add in a little of Rev 13, we’ll be looking at verses 21 -28.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
*Who are the elect ?
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name
And in some ways the saints of the early church are in that group as they are adopted or “wert grafted in among them” Rom 11. So during this first time of tribulation the elect would be there, remember back in Deut 4 they were told
"27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
*So what kind of tribulation can that be? Daniel, Amos and John the Revelator described as a flood.
In Rev 13 the great beast represents all worldly power controlled by Satan which would fight against God.
"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
There is a clue which give a time period
"Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
According to William Barclay that number is a Hebrew letter number which stands for Nero who was alive and kicking when both John and Paul were writing.
Back to 2 Thess 2 “…the one who opposes himself to and exalts himself against everyone who is called God or made an object of worship so that he attempts to take his seat in the very temple of God and proclaims that he himself is God…. For the secret of lawlessness is even now in operation”
Nero was an extremely evil man who finally committed suicide 68ad. He was the last of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, his death sent Rome into a short civil war when the Flavians rise to power. It was Titus who entered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple, he was later deified by the Roman senate. This is what Paul and John and Daniel 11 is talking about.
“36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.”
I have here a short list of the persecutions/tribulations which came upon the Jews/elect
When Titus sacked Jerusalem in 70ad it is said they killed over a million people and enslaved another 100,000.
In 115 ad there was the Kitos Wars and several hundreds of thousands more of the elect were killed.
In 132 ad about 500,000 Jews were killed, thousands more were sold into in slavery. The Christians didn’t treat them any better and there is a long history of persecution starting in the burning of synagogues and the denial of human rights.
When Rome fell in 600 ad it left the world without any presiding authority. It was more of that “secret of lawlessness”. Eventually Europe formed city states which warred against each other.
The Catholic church became a recognized authority in Europe, they dictated what was Gospel and what wasn’t, you had to accept their Trinity or literally be burned at the stake, the real knowledge of God was lost.
Islam began its rise in the Middle East and reached Spain by 700ad.They are anti Christ and forced many Christians and Jews to convert. Charlemagne began his rise, being crowed Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire in 800 ad. The Crusades started in 1096 which led to a massive slaughter of Jews once again, whole villages of Jews were wiped out. If you read though the history of this time period it’s one bloody battle after another.
It all culminates with the Black Death appearing on the scene in 1331 with an estimate 25 million Chinese dieing before it ever appeared in Constantinople in 1347. India was basically depopulated. It spread rabidly across the middle east up into Europe and reached England by 1348. France and Spain lost nearly 80% of their population, Germany and England more like 20%. Paris lost 100,000 people in four years, Florence 120,000.
Once again the Jews were singled out for persecution, since they couldn’t explain what was happening it just had to be the Jews fault even though they suffered from the plague just as much as everyone else. By 1351 100s of Jewish communities were completely destroyed. Waves of the plague continued to make rounds across Europe. If this had not come to an end “there should no flesh be saved”.
We don’t call those medieval times the dark ages for nothing, they were a dark and terrible time.
I believe the days of tribulation lasted from 70 ad to about the 1400s when the printing press was developed and the Bible could be published so that the common man could own and read one. I don’t mean the persecution or tribulation for the Jews ever stopped but there began to be a change or as the world calls it an enlightenment. The Spirit of the Lord began to once again move among men. In 1518 Martin Luther and others began to recognized that the ‘Universal Church’ had lost its way. The Americas began to be open and freedom of religion was the outcome.
Jesus said of this tribulation time;
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
He is repeating what Amos said;
11 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
Now I’m going to end this here because the next part of Matt 24 is about the restoration of the Gospel.
*So a final recap by looking at the initial questions we asked about 2Thess 2
There was an on going prophecy of a falling away, a rebellion, a time of wandering from sea to sea and not being able to find the words of the Lord. The apostles of Jesus day saw it happening before their eyes.
First question; when will this rebellion happen
The answer is at the fall of the temple in which occurred in 70 ad
Next question; what is the power which restrains
It is the power of God , Rom 13
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
That power or the power to act in the name of God was given to Jesus Apostles, Peter being the chief Apostles. He had the power to restrain Satan.
Forth ; who is the one who is restraining him and when was he removed from the scene
It was Peter acting as the chief Apostles and the Power of God which Jesus gave him, once he died and the priesthood was removed from the earth Satan was no longer restrained and began his rule.
Third question; what lawlessness was in operation
It was the world dominated and controlled by Satan.
And then that last line, who consented to that principle of unrighteousness
Paul, John, Jude, James and Peter all said the corruption came from within, it was the leaders who became false prophets and teachers.
I feel like have shown Biblically that the apostasy was both prophesied about and did happen. In my next installment I will discuss what the main point of the apostasy was, the Trinity.
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