This thread is to get Mormon feedback of why they believe that all Christians are in apostasy to God.
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LDS Why do Mormons think all Christians are in apostasy?
- Thread starter ToBeLoved
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Interestingly, came the statement that Christianity is apostasy on until much later. Joseph Smith had his so-called First Vision in 1820, which, as we now know, is supposedly wrong. Because Smith told of a previously taken place religious revivalism in his residential area, so it is on the History of the Church. Only, in 1820 there were in the whole district no such revival movement, but only in winter 1823 to spring 1824, also was Smith, like his cousin Oliver Cowdery confirmed then not 14, but 17 years old.
Also, as the Book of Mormon was supposedly translated in 1827, came from Smith, no such statements about the apostasy of Christianity. Not even when the book published Mormon, and was spread. The earliest testimony to dates back to 1833/34, when Smith first vision told to a clergyman.
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Start with the short version....we can move the long versiion is necessary....
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Going with the short version here (this is from the Mormon POV, you can take it or leave it)--
Basically, in the early years of the Church ~200'ish, Christ's apostles were killed, leadership distorted, His people turned away from Him, teachings distorted, and His authority was lost. This is far from the first time people in mass have a abandoned God, but has happened several times throughout history (Noah, Moses, etc). Throughout the years, the lost church split into many different groups, each with different interruptions of God's words. When the time was right, God choose to restore the pieces of truth and authority that had been lost through a young farm boy name Joseph Smith.
Here's some more basic info: https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng
Clarifying a few points about the LDS view of the apostasy and restoration:
1) LDS do NOT believe that all truth was lost, but that some truths were lost and some falsehoods inserted.
2) LDS do NOT believe that people belonging to other churches (Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc) are not Christians and all not doing their best be followers of Christ. Rather, it is believed that these people are good Christians, following Christ the best they know how, and do MUCH Good in the world.
Basically, in the early years of the Church ~200'ish, Christ's apostles were killed, leadership distorted, His people turned away from Him, teachings distorted, and His authority was lost. This is far from the first time people in mass have a abandoned God, but has happened several times throughout history (Noah, Moses, etc). Throughout the years, the lost church split into many different groups, each with different interruptions of God's words. When the time was right, God choose to restore the pieces of truth and authority that had been lost through a young farm boy name Joseph Smith.
Here's some more basic info: https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng
Clarifying a few points about the LDS view of the apostasy and restoration:
1) LDS do NOT believe that all truth was lost, but that some truths were lost and some falsehoods inserted.
2) LDS do NOT believe that people belonging to other churches (Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc) are not Christians and all not doing their best be followers of Christ. Rather, it is believed that these people are good Christians, following Christ the best they know how, and do MUCH Good in the world.
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I point you to this link: https://www.lds.org/topics/apostasy?lang=eng for starters, and then for seconds the links contained within.
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So basically, the Mormon faith thinks that the Bible is not true because the Bible has survived all these years in it's original languages of Hebrew and Greek. Because if you believed that the Bible were true, than there were always people during the supposed 'apostasy' that had God's Word and could have come to Christ for salvation because ALL that is needed to come to Christ and be saved is in the Bible.
Is this true?
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Another question.
If.. If what you said was true (and I do not believe it for one second) why would God have waited until the 1800's if this apostasy began in about 200 AD?
That to me does not seem like what God would do. He loves EACH person and EACH person is of the utmost importance, so selling that Christ left all those living high and dry for 1600 years is not believable in in itself.
We know from the BIble that each time someone comes to Christ, all the angels in heaven sing. That's how important each of us is.
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Sorry all these thoughts are coming to me separately, so individual posts (but that might help it be easier to respond, I hope so).
Another question. You said that Mormons believe that Christianity went into apostasy AFTER the apostles all died in the third century. If that is true, than Christianity had all it needed to not be an apostasy during the apostles lives and the apostles themselves were not in apostasy.
With that truth, coming from the Mormons own timeline, why would God need to give all these new revelations to JS that totally changes all that the apostles said and did? Paul was clear that a leader of the church should be married to ONE wife and was very clear on what attributes and character that one would HAVE to have?
Paul was also very clear that the Holy Spirit ONLY comes from our Savior Jesus Christ, not from any man.
I'm sure I will think of many more things, but we can start here.
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A lot of people have speculated that it's because the the USA religious freedom allowed a church to grow with being imminently persecuted to death by reigning powers. Personally, I'm of the opinion "God does what I does, He knows best, I don't second guess it".
Mormons also do believe that many people did come to Christ during this time, and still do in other churches. Their faith and commitment to God is very real, even if their knowledge if flawed in areas.
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Bear with me here....you believe by the 2nd century the church was in disarray because of deaths, leadership gone astray, teachings distorted...etc. So, by extension when time of the canonization of the bible occurred the judgement of the church could not be trusted so we should not trust the bible we have as we know it, would that be correct?
Therefore the church, for most of its history, has not been on the right track, is that it?....whether it be orthodox, rcc or protestant?
And this angel, Moroni, came to give Smith the truth so that everyone could get back on track (more or less)?
Would that be about right?
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That really does not hold water, because in the Old Testament the Israelite's were slaves of Egypt for many, many years. However through it all they kept kept their beliefs.
Also, did you know that each one of the apostles was martyred for their faith?
And the Hebrews were under the rule of others many times and always kept their faith in God.
How do you explain these things?
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Tell everyone what -
I'll just copy & paste it from where it's hosted.
**
A core tenant of LDS doctrine is that the early Christian church fell into apostasy after the deaths of Jesus and the apostles. Is this a foolish notion? No, not by any means. In fact, the Bible itself warns of such an event taking place.
Amos 8:11-12
11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Is Amos’ warning exclusive to the Old Testament? It is not. Jesus himself foretold of an apostasy taking place.
Matthew 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Was Jesus simply being overly cautious? Not one bit.
John 6:66-67
66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Even in Jesus’ day there were those who chose to walk away from Jesus’ words.
But what of the church after Jesus died? Surely the apostles were able to curb the falsehoods, right? Wrong.
Acts 20:29-30
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
2 Timothy 4:1-5
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Why was Paul so nervous about apostasy? The answer is simple. By the time Paul and the other NT authors left this realm, the apostasy was a reality.
2 Timothy 1:15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Revelation 2:1-4
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
These are but some of the verses which make it painfully obvious that the early Christian church was already falling apart even while the apostles still resided on the planet.
But how could this happen? As Jesus himself stated, the Second Coming will be preceeded by an apostasy. Paul echoes this statement.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Yet the world was not to be left in turmoil forever. The gospel was to be restored to make way for Jesus to come again.
Revelations 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Joseph Smith History 1:30-34
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite awhiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.
33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
I'll just copy & paste it from where it's hosted.
**
A core tenant of LDS doctrine is that the early Christian church fell into apostasy after the deaths of Jesus and the apostles. Is this a foolish notion? No, not by any means. In fact, the Bible itself warns of such an event taking place.
Amos 8:11-12
11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Is Amos’ warning exclusive to the Old Testament? It is not. Jesus himself foretold of an apostasy taking place.
Matthew 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Was Jesus simply being overly cautious? Not one bit.
John 6:66-67
66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Even in Jesus’ day there were those who chose to walk away from Jesus’ words.
But what of the church after Jesus died? Surely the apostles were able to curb the falsehoods, right? Wrong.
Acts 20:29-30
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
2 Timothy 4:1-5
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Why was Paul so nervous about apostasy? The answer is simple. By the time Paul and the other NT authors left this realm, the apostasy was a reality.
2 Timothy 1:15
15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
Galatians 1:6-7
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Revelation 2:1-4
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
1 John 2:18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Titus 1:10-16
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
These are but some of the verses which make it painfully obvious that the early Christian church was already falling apart even while the apostles still resided on the planet.
But how could this happen? As Jesus himself stated, the Second Coming will be preceeded by an apostasy. Paul echoes this statement.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
Yet the world was not to be left in turmoil forever. The gospel was to be restored to make way for Jesus to come again.
Revelations 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Joseph Smith History 1:30-34
30 While I was thus in the act of calling upon God, I discovered a light appearing in my room, which continued to increase until the room was lighter than at noonday, when immediately a personage appeared at my bedside, standing in the air, for his feet did not touch the floor.
31 He had on a loose robe of most exquisite awhiteness. It was a whiteness beyond anything earthly I had ever seen; nor do I believe that any earthly thing could be made to appear so exceedingly white and brilliant. His hands were naked, and his arms also, a little above the wrist; so, also, were his feet naked, as were his legs, a little above the ankles. His head and neck were also bare. I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.
32 Not only was his robe exceedingly white, but his whole person was glorious beyond description, and his countenance truly like lightning. The room was exceedingly light, but not so very bright as immediately around his person. When I first looked upon him, I was afraid; but the fear soon left me.
33 He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people.
34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;
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