LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

[He is the way]

I don't need to deny or dislike anything in the Bible. Again, we (the Christian Church) wrote the Bible, not you and your latter-day fake Christian replacement religion, regardless of whether or not you claim it as one of your scriptures as well.

You want to have all this claim over the Bible, and "you've shown" this and that, and "there's nothing in the Bible that says" blahblablah. Well, how's about this: Without the Christian faith and Church that your religion was founded to be in direct opposition to in the vain hopes that it would someday become the replacement of it, there would be no Bible for you to make your claims from. We absolutely and without question own the very basis that your religion has to be claiming anything at at all, because the Bible actually exists, and has a history, and that history is intimately tied to the history of Christianity and the Christian Church (as in the actual history that is observed in various places and times, not JS' fantasies), unlike your BOM, which doesn't exist (i.e., there are no golden plates with Reformed Egyptian on them or any of this other nonsense), and has no history because it was invented in an environment of hokey pseudo-religious 19th century backwoods folk magic.

Frankly, your desire to lay some sort of claim over what is not yours comes off like a manifestation of jealousy at best. We don't go around saying "But the BOM is our book too!", but you basically have to do that with the Bible, because there's nothing of an actual revelation of God that was transmitted to JS. Maybe he thought he had one (it's not uncommon for cult leaders to start believing their own babblings; same thing happened to L. Ron Hubbard of Scientology, David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, etc.; I don't see any reason why JS should be immune to that just because some people wouldn't put him in that same category), but that's neither here nor there, as anyone can claim anything (hence Mormonism existing in the first place).

You said: "Again, we (the Christian Church) wrote the Bible, not you and your latter-day fake Christian replacement religion, regardless of whether or not you claim it as one of your scriptures as well."

The Bible was written long before you were born. It was written for all of God's children. The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants , and the Pearl of Great Price were also written for all of God's children. God is LOVE. He LOVES all of us. He wants all of us to become more LOVING and kind. That is why He gave us the commandments of LOVE. He expects us to LOVE Him and to LOVE one another. Hate is of the devil. The Book of Mormon teaches us how to judge right from wrong:

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:4 - 19)

4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.
7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.
9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.
10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.
11 For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil.
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

 

[dzheremi]

The Bible was written long before you were born.

Please read more carefully. I intentionally put "the Christian Church" in there. I'm very much not talking about myself.

Also, what sort of point is this anyway? The Church predates the writing of the Bible, so what is pointing to the antiquity of the Bible supposed to prove?

It was written for all of God's children.

Okay.

The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants , and the Pearl of Great Price were also written for all of God's children.

Well, the portion of God's children who are Christians do not accept these things.

God is LOVE. He LOVES all of us. He wants all of us to become more LOVING and kind. That is why He gave us the commandments of LOVE. He expects us to LOVE Him and to LOVE one another.

I'm sorry, I just had a blackout from reading the word "love" in caps too many times. What were you trying to say?

Hate is of the devil.

Oh really? Let's see what Mormonism's favored translation, the KJV, has to say about that...

"These six things doth the Lord hate..." (Proverbs 6:16)

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth." (Deuteronomy 16:22)

"And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD." (Zechariah 8:17-19)

"For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away" (Malachi 2:16)

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)

The Book of Mormon teaches us how to judge right from wrong:

Yes, and so do any number of other books for people who follow those things. What is your point? Were we ever talking about how to judge right from wrong?

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:4 - 19)

4 And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men.
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.[/quote]

What? So no one who is bad has ever done anything good? Judas was never an apostle, then? Or maybe St. Paul's conversion never happened?

No offense, but this Moroni character sounds like he misspelled his own name.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.
8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly...

Ughhh...the repetition ...the -th endings to make it sound Biblical...

Why's your god got such a lisp, man? Is Kolob in Spain?

 

[He is the way]

6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

What? So no one who is bad has ever done anything good? Judas was never an apostle, then? Or maybe St. Paul's conversion never happened?

No offense, but this Moroni character sounds like he misspelled his own name.



Ughhh...the repetition ...the -th endings to make it sound Biblical...

Why's your god got such a lisp, man? Is Kolob in Spain?[/QUOTE]
You said: "
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.[/quote]

What? So no one who is bad has ever done anything good? Judas was never an apostle, then? Or maybe St. Paul's conversion never happened?"

When a man is being evil he can not do that which is good because he lacks real intent to do good.

 

[He is the way]

Please read more carefully. I intentionally put "the Christian Church" in there. I'm very much not talking about myself.

Also, what sort of point is this anyway? The Church predates the writing of the Bible, so what is pointing to the antiquity of the Bible supposed to prove?



Okay.



Well, the portion of God's children who are Christians do not accept these things.



I'm sorry, I just had a blackout from reading the word "love" in caps too many times. What were you trying to say?



Oh really? Let's see what Mormonism's favored translation, the KJV, has to say about that...

"These six things doth the Lord hate..." (Proverbs 6:16)

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth." (Deuteronomy 16:22)

"And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD." (Zechariah 8:17-19)

"For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away" (Malachi 2:16)

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)





Yes, and so do any number of other books for people who follow those things. What is your point? Were we ever talking about how to judge right from wrong?


6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

You said: "Oh really? Let's see what Mormonism's favored translation, the KJV, has to say about that...

"These six things doth the Lord hate..." (Proverbs 6:16)

"Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the Lord thy God hateth." (Deuteronomy 16:22)

"And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith the LORD." (Zechariah 8:17-19)

"For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away" (Malachi 2:16)

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)
'

I was talking about people, not THINGS:


When you hate someone for any reason, you are being played by Satan. Hatred aimed at one another is misdirected. Hatred is Satan’s playground. Wherever division leads to rage and loathing, the devil can be found not far off, shrouded by darkness, watching the aftermath of his handiwork. When you hate, you are a mere plaything of the devil. Hatred and malevolence are ungodly and wrong.

 

[Rescued One]

The works of unbelievers don't being glory to God.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

1 Corithians 15
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 3:30
He must increase, but I must decrease.

 

[dzheremi]

I was talking about people, not THINGS

I'm sorry, but you didn't specify that, so I had no way to know that that's what you meant.

When you hate someone for any reason, you are being played by Satan. Hatred aimed at one another is misdirected. Hatred is Satan’s playground. Wherever division leads to rage and loathing, the devil can be found not far off, shrouded by darkness, watching the aftermath of his handiwork. When you hate, you are a mere plaything of the devil. Hatred and malevolence are ungodly and wrong.

Okay. I'm not aware of anyone here would disagree with any of this (with the possible exception of the bit about 'division', since really that's in the eye of the beholder; a Christian could say, and probably would say, that Mormons divide themselves from Christianity on purpose, since that's what their founder JS did, and so have no room to tell anyone else about what harm division does while remaining Mormons).

So I'm not really sure what any of this has to do with anything. Nobody here hates you or any Mormon, but just like God hates things and not people, it is entirely fair and indeed commendable and necessary that the false doctrine of Mormonism, not Mormon people, be vigorously opposed on all fronts. Not even out of 'hate', either, but out of fidelity to the Truth (God) which Mormonism by its very nature denies.

 

[Peter1000]

We had a very long thread about this topic a few years ago: LDS - Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

It got pretty interesting. I can't think of anything to say in this thread that I didn't already say in that one, but yeah...Mormonism is against the cross for various reasons that the Mormons lay out in that thread, and they're all still ridiculous just like they were then, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you would have gone into a first century church, you would not have seen any crosses.

You probably would have seen this sign

The Chi Rho sign.

It was not until the 4th century that the cross became the ultimate symbol of Christianity and started to appear everywhere.

We are not disinterested in the cross, we just think the resurrection was more important than the instrument of death that Jesus died on.

You would also find in first century churches the sign of the fish.

The cross was important as the prophesied way our Savior would die. And the death of Christ was the important sacrifice for the salvation of man.

We do not, however, worship the cross. It was important, but not to be worshiped, as it could actually reflect away from our worship of Jesus. How many people that you know of, kneel to a cross and offer prayer?

If it were up to me, I would not have any problems having a cross in our churches.

 

[Jamesone5]

If you would have gone into a first century church, you would not have seen any crosses.

You probably would have seen this sign

The Chi Rho sign.

It was not until the 4th century that the cross became the ultimate symbol of Christianity and started to appear everywhere.

We are not disinterested in the cross, we just think the resurrection was more important than the instrument of death that Jesus died on.

You would also find in first century churches the sign of the fish.

The cross was important as the prophesied way our Savior would die. And the death of Christ was the important sacrifice for the salvation of man.

We do not, however, worship the cross. It was important, but not to be worshiped, as it could actually reflect away from our worship of Jesus. How many people that you know of, kneel to a cross and offer prayer?

If it were up to me, I would not have any problems having a cross in our churches.

And no century do we find Christians with the mythical angel Moroni at the top of their false temples.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

How can you even remember in your Sacrament what Jesus did for us without the Cross?

 

[He is the way]

And no century do we find Christians with the mythical angel Moroni at the top of their false temples.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

How can you even remember in your Sacrament what Jesus did for us without the Cross?

It was Christ's body and blood that He gave for us. He did not own a cross, He had to carry the cross.

(New Testament | Luke 22:19 - 20)

19 ¶ And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

 

[Jamesone5]

It was Christ's body and blood that He gave for us. He did not own a cross, He had to carry the cross.

(New Testament | Luke 22:19 - 20)

19 ¶ And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

I have no idea what you are trying to argue here--except you miss the point.

This is my body which is given to you, this do in remembrance of me [from your verse]----where did He give His body and what are we supposed to remember?

Answer---He gave His body for us, On the Cross and whether He owned it or not is a foolish assertion. He still died on the Cross.

once again

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Here is another verse that applies here:

Mark 8:34
When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

His disciple did not know what He meant then, but it is more of "die to self" or 'deny himself' as the following few verses attest to. It is just like Christ did in denying his flesh and blood at the Cross.

Pretty important message here and yet Mormons want to eliminate the Cross or any rememberance of it.

 

[He is the way]

I have no idea what you are trying to argue here--except you miss the point.

This is my body which is given to you, this do in remembrance of me [from your verse]----where did He give His body and what are we supposed to remember?

Answer---He gave His body for us, On the Cross and whether He owned it or not is a foolish assertion. He still died on the Cross.

once again

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Here is another verse that applies here:

Mark 8:34
When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

His disciple did not know what He meant then, but it is more of "die to self" or 'deny himself' as the following few verses attest to. It is just like Christ did in denying his flesh and blood at the Cross.

Pretty important message here and yet Mormons want to eliminate the Cross or any rememberance of it.

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints do NOT want to eliminate the Cross or any remembrance of it. We do not hate the cross nor do we worship the cross. We remember the pain and suffering that Jesus Christ was willing to do that mankind may be saved through His atonement. Jesus told us to repent and LOVE Him by keeping the commandments.

 

[Jamesone5]

Members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints do NOT want to eliminate the Cross or any remembrance of it. We do not hate the cross nor do we worship the cross. We remember the pain and suffering that Jesus Christ was willing to do that mankind may be saved through His atonement. Jesus told us to repent and LOVE Him by keeping the commandments.

Ok, Where is you answer to at least what Christ said here?

Mark 8:34
When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

And why do you remove the Cross in a common chapel, if you do not want to eliminate at least it's presence?

 

[He is the way]

Ok, Where is you answer to at least what Christ said here?

Mark 8:34
When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

And why do you remove the Cross in a common chapel, if you do not want to eliminate at least it's presence?

It is not the cross that takes away our sins and cleanses us, it is Christ's blood.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:26 - 28)

26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(New Testament | Mark 14:22 - 24)

22 ¶ And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
(New Testament | Ephesians 2:13)

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(New Testament | Hebrews 9:22)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(New Testament | 1 John 1:7)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We don't hate the cross and we realize that we will have to suffer and endure to the end. However Christ's life is more important than His death on the cross. He taught that if we LOVE Him we are to keep the commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

However Christ's life is more important than His death on the cross.

If you were a Christian, you would know not to attempt to put them in opposition to each other as you do here. Christ's death and resurrection is a part of His life -- in His own words, it is in fact the summit of it ("it is finished"). So we do not choose one aspect or part and ignore or place it over the others. That is foolishness, and if that is the message Mormonism gives you, I am sorry to say you are being led astray.

 

[BigDaddy4]

for the Moneyball reference! lol

 

[Jamesone5]

i

It is not the cross that takes away our sins and cleanses us, it is Christ's blood.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:26 - 28)

26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(New Testament | Mark 14:22 - 24)

22 ¶ And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
(New Testament | Ephesians 2:13)

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
(New Testament | Hebrews 9:22)

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(New Testament | 1 John 1:7)

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

We don't hate the cross and we realize that we will have to suffer and endure to the end. However Christ's life is more important than His death on the cross. He taught that if we LOVE Him we are to keep the commandments.

I am aware of the words of the Sacrament or communion. The question is why do Mormons pretend they understand them?

where did Christ shed His Blood?

A

On the Cross.

Philippians 3:17-19

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shamewho set their mind on earthly things

You possibly do not realize it, but you have made yourself an enemy of the Cross of Christ.

 

[He is the way]

If you were a Christian, you would know not to attempt to put them in opposition to each other as you do here. Christ's death and resurrection is a part of His life -- in His own words, it is in fact the summit of it ("it is finished"). So we do not choose one aspect or part and ignore or place it over the others. That is foolishness, and if that is the message Mormonism gives you, I am sorry to say you are being led astray.

I am not being led astray. While Christ's torture and resurrection is part of His His life it is only a small part of it. If you leave out the rest of His life, you leave out most of it. His teachings would have filled many books.

 

[He is the way]

i


I am aware of the words of the Sacrament or communion. The question is why do Mormons pretend they understand them?

where did Christ shed His Blood?

A

On the Cross.

Philippians 3:17-19

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shamewho set their mind on earthly things

You possibly do not realize it, but you have made yourself an enemy of the Cross of Christ.

Jesus did not only shed blood on the cross, He was severely whipped, beaten and had crown of thorns placed on His head. Many of those who were beaten died from the beating. You probably do not realize it, but the person that started this thread was the person that said we hate the cross, not me. I have stated many times on this thread that we do not hate the cross. We do not worship the cross either.

 

[Jamesone5]

Here is a curious statement:

Many of those who were beaten died from the beating.--He is the Way

When you partake of the Sacrament, are you thinking of all the others who died from their beatings? The Sacrament is all about Christ. He is the one who gives us the opportunity to be Saved---if we believe in Him.

How he shed His blood and died in His manifested body on the Cross where as He claimed this:

John 19:30
So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

No, you do not willingly hate the Cross, but it comes down that way in your deception.

 

[dzheremi]

I am not being led astray. While Christ's torture and resurrection is part of His His life it is only a small part of it. If you leave out the rest of His life, you leave out most of it. His teachings would have filled many books.

Leaving aside for the sake of argument the disagreement we're obviously still going to have over the theology of the cross and the crucifixion and glorious resurrection, by this same logic couldn't the same be said about any event which Mormonism would rather bolster, or any event period? In other words, any particular event isolated from the larger whole is "only a small part." His changing of the water into wine at Cana was only a small part of His life, as was His raising up of Lazarus from the dead, or His saving the adulterous woman from stoning, or His cleansing of the temple, or...

You get the point. So, seeing as this can be applied to literally anything and everything, how can it really be in favor of any particular point?