LDS Why do Mormons really not understand the Cross?

[He is the way]

If you have no true Faith in God, I guess you won't.

Here is the funny part you hve not figured out is that, you will have to suffer in the flesh like everyone else. No one get out of dying. The endurance part is whether or not you deny Christ---the true Christ at the very end. We go out shooting our six-guns or gun like Joseph Smith? Or do we realize like nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ-- Romans 8:35


Seems to be your problem, not ours.

Christ LOVES every one, but not everyone LOVES Christ:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Those who LOVE Him will be saved:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[He is the way]

How could you understand the promise if you have a false Christ to start with?

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect

I don't follow false christs or false prophets.

 

[He is the way]

Once again talking to yourself.

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[Jamesone5]

I don't follow false christs or false prophets.

I notice on the other post you changed He is the Way posted to He is the Way to make it a response to me. I know how that works as I have done it myself.

On the question at hand you have another Christ. Gordon Hinckley even admitted to that---brought to you by a false prophet.

 

[Rescued One]

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.
`Crown of gospel is upon our heads'

 

[Jamesone5]

In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints "do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. He, together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.
`Crown of gospel is upon our heads'

As to Smith's first vision, everything depends on that. The Church, the later prophets that arouse, a Mormon's testimony, the BoM--all depend on this "truth?" of God or God and Jesus Christ making their appearance before him in human-like bodies.

The fact that the Church made it's so-called official account of Joseph Smith's first vision with both and the fact that he changes his story about that multiple times----really makes it very evident that God did NOT visited him at all. And of course, his claims are that he was alone and no one can corroborate his story or stories. Everything rests on his claims.

Mormons do not realize that in defending their Faith--it all rests on Joseph Smith's claims. Kind of like a house of cards held up by one card.

In placing MY Faith on the teachings of Someone Who is long since gone from this earth----it is Christ. Of course before He went up to heaven there was 500 or so that could corroborate His Story which has not changed.

First Vision - Wikipedia

 

[He is the way]

I notice on the other post you changed He is the Way posted to He is the Way to make it a response to me. I know how that works as I have done it myself.

On the question at hand you have another Christ. Gordon Hinckley even admitted to that---brought to you by a false prophet.

There are other Christs. I worship the Christ that said:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[dzheremi]

There are other Christs. I worship the Christ that said:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

But not the Christ Who said "I and the Father are One", or "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", or "neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand", or any of the many other things that show the true revelation of God in Christ not by unity of purpose only but in essence, preferring instead (as Mormonism does) a false Christ who is incarnate before the incarnation (somehow!), made up of 'internal intelligences' (whatever those are that JS just made up), and is one of an infinite number of 'gods' who are 'spirit children' of the Mormon god the father (who is himself just the spirit child of another one of endless gods), and hence 'spirit brothers' of Satan...

And you think we're supposed to care or be shaken by your oft-repeated "keeping of commandments"?

May the true God forgive any who keep the commandments of the false Mormon Christ and the false Mormon gods and the false Mormon prophets of the (obviously false) Mormon religion.

 

[He is the way]

But not the Christ Who said "I and the Father are One", or "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", or "neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand", or any of the many other things that show the true revelation of God in Christ not by unity of purpose only but in essence, preferring instead (as Mormonism does) a false Christ who is incarnate before the incarnation (somehow!), made up of 'internal intelligences' (whatever those are that JS just made up), and is one of an infinite number of 'gods' who are 'spirit children' of the Mormon god the father (who is himself just the spirit child of another one of endless gods), and hence 'spirit brothers' of Satan...

And you think we're supposed to care or be shaken by your oft-repeated "keeping of commandments"?

May the true God forgive any who keep the commandments of the false Mormon Christ and the false Mormon gods and the false Mormon prophets of the (obviously false) Mormon religion.

You said: "But not the Christ Who said "I and the Father are One"

Yes I do worship that Christ and He told us how He and the Father are one:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

You said: "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father"

And we know how this is too:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:3)

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

You said: "neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand"

We may disagree about who these are but the Bible makes it clear:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:9)

9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[Jamesone5]

There are other Christs. I worship the Christ that said:

(New Testament | John 14:15)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

You only proved that you can read short verses of Bible and partially understand them--sometimes

 

[He is the way]

You only proved that you can read short verses of Bible and partially understand them--sometimes

Just showing that I worship the true Christ.

 

[Jamesone5]

Just showing that I worship the true Christ.

another Christ

the true Christ is God.

Not a god taught about by a false prophet

 

[Peter1000]

another Christ

the true Christ is God.

Not a god taught about by a false prophet

Sorry, you can never just say that Christ is God, because Jesus tells us he has a God, it is his Father.
(John 20:17)

What is most appropriate to say is that Jesus is the Son of God the Father.

I know there were some in the NT that called Jesus their savior and God. That is not inappropriate because he is a God. But to just say that Jesus is God, seems to me that you are excluding his Father, and the Holy Ghost.

You may not actually be excluding them, but without further information some can come to the conclusion that you think Jesus is the only God. He is not.

 

[He is the way]

another Christ

the true Christ is God.

Not a god taught about by a false prophet

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

 

[Jamesone5]

Sorry, you can never just say that Christ is God, because Jesus tells us he has a God, it is his Father.
(John 20:17)

What is most appropriate to say is that Jesus is the Son of God the Father.

I know there were some in the NT that called Jesus their savior and God. That is not inappropriate because he is a God. But to just say that Jesus is God, seems to me that you are excluding his Father, and the Holy Ghost.

You may not actually be excluding them, but without further information some can come to the conclusion that you think Jesus is the only God. He is not.

Uh, what do you do with Christ? He is not God here but [a] God?

John 1:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.


"a" or "another" God certainly disagrees here.

But we have been over this boring territory before sometimes with you telling me Christ is Lord. Mormons seem to have trouble assessing their Gods they believe in.

 

[Jamesone5]

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Good... You figured out one verse where Christ was talking in His humanity.

Now go back to first of John and try to put the two verses together.

John 1:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Seems you disregard the Holy Spirit that tell you how that is possible and try to figure it out in your flesh. Or do you think that Almighty God has to play by our rules?

 

[Peter1000]

But not the Christ Who said "I and the Father are One", or "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father", or "neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand", or any of the many other things that show the true revelation of God in Christ not by unity of purpose only but in essence, preferring instead (as Mormonism does) a false Christ who is incarnate before the incarnation (somehow!), made up of 'internal intelligences' (whatever those are that JS just made up), and is one of an infinite number of 'gods' who are 'spirit children' of the Mormon god the father (who is himself just the spirit child of another one of endless gods), and hence 'spirit brothers' of Satan...

And you think we're supposed to care or be shaken by your oft-repeated "keeping of commandments"?

May the true God forgive any who keep the commandments of the false Mormon Christ and the false Mormon gods and the false Mormon prophets of the (obviously false) Mormon religion.

That is what I have been talking about "levels" of belief.

On the first level, we can say: we believe that "I and the Father are One" with a straight face and with confidence.

On the first level, we can say: we believe that "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father".

The "incarnation" is a reference to Jesus becoming flesh. We certainly do not believe he was incarnated long before the "flesh incarnation".

Since you have a problem defining and giving examples of what "essence" means and is, it is difficult to have discussions about that.

You believe Jesus has existed forever, we do too.

 

[Peter1000]

Uh, what do you do with Christ? He is not God here but [a] God?

John 1:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.


"a" or "another" God certainly disagrees here.

But we have been over this boring territory before sometimes with you telling me Christ is Lord. Mormons seem to have trouble assessing their Gods they believe in.

If Christ is God, then why does he say that his Father is his God, and ours for that matter?
(John 20:17)
If Jesus has a God doesn't that mean there are at least 2 of Them? If Jesus is ascending to meet his God, does that not imply that there are 2 of Them. One on earth (Jesus), and one in heaven (God the Father)?

Good... You figured out one verse where Christ was talking in His humanity.
Now go back to first of John and try to put the two verses together.

John 1:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Seems you disregard the Holy Spirit that tell you how that is possible and try to figure it out in your flesh. Or do you think that Almighty God has to play by our rules?

Jesus was not talking in his humanity, he was talking to Mary after he was resurrected in his glorified Godhood, and he still called his Father "His God".

We have no problems with Jesus being God. We just know there is more than 1 God. For instance in John 1:1-2, Jesus is God alright, but he is also in the beginning "with God". IOW even in the beginning there was 2 Gods, and Jesus confirms that in the garden after his humanity, when he tell Mary he (Jesus) is ascending up to meet His God, God the FAther. 2 Gods, one on earth, ascending into heavcen, and one in heaven, being ascended to.

So we reconcile John 1 and John 20 just fine, they confirm each other.

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, you can never just say that Christ is God, because Jesus tells us he has a God, it is his Father.

Jesus Christ is God. Full stop.

What is most appropriate to say is that Jesus is the Son of God the Father.

This is what everyone says already.

I know there were some in the NT that called Jesus their savior and God. That is not inappropriate because he is a God.

He is not "a" God. He is God. No indefinite article.

But to just say that Jesus is God, seems to me that you are excluding his Father, and the Holy Ghost.

You may not actually be excluding them, but without further information some can come to the conclusion that you think Jesus is the only God. He is not.

To be frank, it only seems that way to you because of the Mormon theology that you have imbibed in place of Christianity. No Christian church that I am aware of teaches that Jesus Christ is God to the exclusion of the Father and the Holy Spirit. It's the Holy Trinity, not the Holy monad.

The real problem is not what others say, but the fact that Mormon theology treats the persons of the Trinity as three separate gods because of its teaching that they are not of the same essence (and I will not be going over this again with you; if you don't remember how this is so, you can reference any of the many, many hours you and I have already spent discussing this, though it is better to pray for understanding).

The Christian who is praying in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit prays in the name of the One God, the only God there is.

 

[He is the way]

Good... You figured out one verse where Christ was talking in His humanity.

Now go back to first of John and try to put the two verses together.

John 1:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.

Seems you disregard the Holy Spirit that tell you how that is possible and try to figure it out in your flesh. Or do you think that Almighty God has to play by our rules?

You said: "You figured out one verse where Christ was talking in His humanity."

So you believe that the resurrected Christ is still in His humanity? Really?

And the scripture you quoted also proves you wrong: 2 He was in the beginning with God.