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Why do good buddhist monks go to hell?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by Rainangel, Jun 26, 2003.

  1. oneiric

    oneiric redeemed

    535
    +5
    Christian
    haha relativism.
    No, there is only one Truth. Truth cannot contradict itself. There must be one right religion...one right God. And I believe Christianity is the way the truth and the life.
     
  2. Reader Nilus

    Reader Nilus SISU

    +230
    Eastern Orthodox
    I am not a relativist, but I know who my Life is in, and I can see His life everywhere. We convert by love not preaching, by being truly human. By being a servant to all.
    Jeff the Finn
     
  3. oneiric

    oneiric redeemed

    535
    +5
    Christian
    To lead one to Christ, you do not have to stand out in ha crowd and wave a cross. Like the Bible says, we will be known by our fruits...
    but also telling someone about Christ is very important, because we are instructed to.
     
  4. Reader Nilus

    Reader Nilus SISU

    +230
    Eastern Orthodox
    As St Stephen of Perm showed all you need to do is pray and fast.
    Jeff the Finn
     
  5. oneiric

    oneiric redeemed

    535
    +5
    Christian
    Well, I believe prayer, fruits produced from salvation, and evangelism is what is needed. :)
     
  6. Take up the Cross

    Take up the Cross New Member

    38
    +1
    If you think this is what Christianity is, than you have a gross misunderstanding and a false conception of the Gospel. Jesus Christ claimed Himself to be the ONLY way to the Father, and that no one can come God through Him. God has sent His convicting grace upon the entire world in hopes of saving as many of His lost children as He can.

    The issue here is sin, right? We all do it, and we can't seem to stop with our own power. God hates sin, and must do so because He is holy and righteous in character. So, where is the solution? God has provided it through the person of Jesus Christ. Those who genuinely repent (God knows who is faking, and who is truly throwing themselves at the mercy of Him), and trust in what Jesus did on the cross (became a provision for the forgiveness of sins), are born again into the family of God.

    Now, if Jesus is the only way as He claimed, how can there be any other way to deal with sin? No matter how good we are without Christ, we still can't make up for past sins, or stop sinning in the present.

    Becoming a Christian does not give you a license to sin, by any means! When we become Christian, we die to sin and become alive to God. We are given the Holy Spirit and are empowered to be holy. Paul specifically addresses this issue (antinomianism - that Christians are exempt from the Law). Jesus came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. Christians now are able to fulfill the perfect Law of God. Whether or not they continue to trust in God's grace or not is also a matter of choice. But, I don't believe there is such thing as a 'sinning Christian,' no more than there can a sober drunkard, or a wise fool. Not that Christians never falter on the way to total sanctification, but if they do and their hearts are right with God, they will turn to Him for cleansing. When I speak of sin, I speak of willful sins - holiness is a matter of the heart and whether or not it's right with God.

    Why am I blabbing about this? To show you that Christianity is not a religion of living in sin. Christians don't (or should not) simply say 'I am saved because I believe in Jesus, so I can sin all I want.' They are liars, not Christians.

    Jesus Christ claimed to be the only way for all of this to happen. Buddhists who are presented with the Gospel, but refuse it are responsible for their choice.

    We cannot be good without Jesus

    Kyle
     
  7. Reader Nilus

    Reader Nilus SISU

    +230
    Eastern Orthodox
    The question is how do you refuse forgiveness?
    I will never sit in judgement of anyone, Christian or Hindu or Buddhist, because that is not my place. As far as the thread is concerned good Buddhist monks do not go to hell, why should they?
    Jeff the Finn
     
  8. Take up the Cross

    Take up the Cross New Member

    38
    +1
    The question is not 'how do you reject forgiveness.' Christ's death was a 'provision' for forgiveness, not forgiveness in itself. It made forgiveness and atonement possible for all, not effacious for all. Forgiveness requires the individual to repent and trust in the provision (Jesus).

    The Bible judges unbelievers (non-Christians), and tells us to preach the Truth of Jesus Christ, and that no one can be saved without Him.

    Why would 'good Buddhists' go to heaven? What is 'good,' according to the Bible? Can we achieve it without Christ, according to the Bible? The truth is that 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,' and that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He said Himself that no one comes to the Father but through Him.

    Kyle
     
  9. Nathan David

    Nathan David Well-Known Member

    +37
    Atheist
    I am confident I have not committed any "sins" serious enough that I need forgiveness from the creator and ruler of the universe. If your God exists and that's not good enough for him, too bad. I'd rather concern myself with the people and relationships I have in this life than waste any effort trying to please a supernatural entity.
     
  10. Take up the Cross

    Take up the Cross New Member

    38
    +1
    Your confidence is resting on a sinking ship, I'm afraid. We have all committed sins enough that we need forgiveness. Any sin, no matter the seriousness, is a separation from God. We all need to be reconciled - every single one of us. No sin is too little that it needs not forgiveness, and no sin is too great as to surpass forgiveness.

    Kyle
     
  11. Nathan David

    Nathan David Well-Known Member

    +37
    Atheist
    If that's God's attitude, I want to be separated from Him.

    But I'm pretty sure it isn't, so I'm not worried about it.
     
  12. oneiric

    oneiric redeemed

    535
    +5
    Christian
    How good do you have to be to get to heaven? God is holy and requires holiness. Holiness is purity. Even though you may think you are good enough, even one sin disqualifies you from being in the presence of God. You could never be good enough. That is why you need Jesus.
     
  13. vajradhara

    vajradhara Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom

    +434
    Buddhist
    In Relationship
    US-Others

    of course that presupposes that one wants to go to Heaven, which hasn't been established... and, in the case of the Buddhist monk, the monk would, in fact, not like to go to Heaven either... though he may well end up there...

    and, even if it were so, Heaven or Hell are transitory and not permenant states for the Buddhist.

    for the Christian, this is not so and these are eternal reward or punishment... interestingly enough, Paul says that those that will join the "elect" have already been preordained before their birth to be the "elect"... effectively removing the sacrifice of Jesus as necessary for salvation... even though Jesus says you can't get to God except through Him.

    even more curiously, James plainly states that faith without works is devoid of life whilst Paul insists that faith alone is what is required. i find it noteworthy that James was the brother of Jesus and led the Jerusalem Church well before Paul (Saul) was on the scene. isn't it odd that James and Luke contradict Paul?

    as a modern Christian engaged in any type of serious Bible study, you will eventually have to decide that either the Twelve Apostles were correct, including Jesus or Paul was correct. They are not the same and i would encourage any that think that they are to critically read Acts and Galatians and see for themselves the corrections that James makes to Paul.
     
  14. Take up the Cross

    Take up the Cross New Member

    38
    +1
    God's attitude is nothing but love towards you. He wants you to be with Him. Why do you think He died in excruciating pain for you on the Cross?
     
  15. Take up the Cross

    Take up the Cross New Member

    38
    +1
    Quoted:

    for the Christian, this is not so and these are eternal reward or punishment... interestingly enough, Paul says that those that will join the "elect" have already been preordained before their birth to be the "elect"... effectively removing the sacrifice of Jesus as necessary for salvation... even though Jesus says you can't get to God except through Him.

    even more curiously, James plainly states that faith without works is devoid of life whilst Paul insists that faith alone is what is required. i find it noteworthy that James was the brother of Jesus and led the Jerusalem Church well before Paul (Saul) was on the scene. isn't it odd that James and Luke contradict Paul?


    Paul never teaches such a thing. He proclaims over and over that salvation is by FAITH, not fate. He exhorts human responsibility throughout His work. He tells unbelievers to repent and believe, and believers to abide in the faith. Nothing was pre-ordained by God other than His plan to save all those who would believe in Him through Christ. The 5 times the word predestination occurs in the Bible all refer to US (the Body), and include how the election takes place, through Christ. Thus, the Body is elect, and those who believe become part of the body.

    This does not "effectively remove the sacrifice of Jesus as necessary for salvation," because it is necessary for all. One only becomes elect once they repent and believe. It is open to all, whosoever will - words of Jesus.

    Paul himself claimed several times that Jesus died for all men and was the propitiation of sin for all men. So the words of Paul are not in opposition to Jesus in any way. I can give you plenty of verses for reference if you'd like.

    And as for James, He was dealing with the issue of dead faith. Justification by faith, as said by Paul, means that we cannot do anything to merit salvation. But, after salvation has taken place, our fruits will show. So, a true Christian will show his faith through his works. Paul spoke against sinning 'for the fun of it' since we are 'under grace' very ardently. He warned people of falling from the faith, and that Christians DO NOT sin (dead to sin, alive to God). James said the same thing! "Faith without works is dead." True faith will result in good works (fruits of salvation). This does not void justification by faith as affirmed by both Paul, and James.

    I see no contradiction here

    Kyle
     
  16. vajradhara

    vajradhara Diamond Thunderbolt of Indestructable Wisdom

    +434
    Buddhist
    In Relationship
    US-Others
    Namaste Kyle,

    thank you for the intelligent post.

    i shall offer this as my first rebuttal statement:

    "... for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness." (James 1:3; RSV)

    Unlike Paul's faith without works, faith's tests must be met, and it can only be met by action. Even to continue in a righteous path of religious exercise one must do so by action. James proceeds to God's answer to prayer, in much the same light as Jesus did. When one approaches God one must be of an absolute belief that it will come to pass.

    "If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives to all men generously and without reproaching, and it will be given him. But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind." (James 1:5-6; RSV)

    Faith alone is not sufficient, prayer is in evidence, and that without doubt or hesitation. When Jesus explained to us the gifts of the Father, he expressed himself in common, easily understood metaphors. Seek, knock, ask... but without doubt, without a faltering heart. That is putting faith into action.

    If Paul's way is to be followed, one must ask why we are constantly tested. If Paul's way is to be followed, why are we told that we are never given a cross greater than we can bear? If Paul's way is to be followed, then Job is an example to no one.

    "Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him." (James 1:12; RSV)

    By interpreter's standards, vs. 17, is obscure "The terminology in the remainder of vs. 17 is almost hopelessly obscure and the textual evidence equally so." (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 12: Page 29)

    But it is plain enough when read in context with the entire subject of this part of the letter.

    "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of Lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." (James 1:17; RSV)

    God is steadfast, there is no change in God's person or action. There are no hidden motives, nothing in the 'shadow' of darkness to be revealed later, i.e., there is no deception in God. The Lord God has no human failings, no hypocrisy.

    The difficulty is, as in other places in the Greek testaments and as opposed to the criticism of the Old Testament, that those involved are prejudiced. They are biased in their handling of the New Testament and do everything possible, legitimate or not, to uphold to an erroneous tradition. But, the truth be known, they have no choice.

    This is the major reason that they continue to applaud Paul even when he has been proven wrong, not by this student, but by his own peers. Luke is an excellent example of the distortion he raises in his efforts to prove his superiority and his authority.

    Again, the theologians of our time refer to James' writing as 'Christian', but note that, it is more akin to Judaism rather than Christianity. (The use of the term, the righteousness of God, is basically Jewish, and certainly not Pauline!) (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 12: Page 31)

    At this point, the author begins to take Paul to task. This must be repeated in its entirety.

    "But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves... But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing." (James 1:22-25; RSV)

    The author of James also continues a path that seems to place the rich in a very bad light. He speaks of honoring the widow, and the orphan, and the poor man.

    "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this; to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained in the world." (James 1: 27; RSV)

    "Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name by which you are called?" (James 2:6-7; RSV)

    James raises the inevitable question.

    "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?... So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:14-17; RSV)

    This is a direct answer to Paul's irreconcilable, 'faith alone'. It refutes the Gospel that Paul perpetrated in the first days of the church and brings to us this very day. It is the stand of the Catholic church as it seeks reconciliation in the eyes of Protestant Christianity, bringing this same worthless message in an attempt to bind up a dying religion.

    "But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith." (James 2:18; RSV)

    It is impossible to prove Paul's stand other than by admitting action, as God states in His Holy Scriptures. To say that you have faith, or that you believe something, without acting on that statement proves nothing. Paul is playing word games. (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 12: Page 43)


    if you're interested, i'm happy to point out and explain the areas where i believe that Paul is teaching the things that i'm asserting about him...


    "... our sufficiency is from God, who has qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life." (II Corinthians 3:5-6; RSV)

    The written code is the Law of Moses. Paul states that it kills. Yet Jesus says that He came to fulfill the Law and that not one iota of it would be discarded.

    "Now if the dispensation of death, carved in letters of stone, came with such splendor that the Israelites could not look at Moses' face because of its brightness, fading as this was.... Indeed, in this case, what once had splendor has come to have no splendor at all... Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not see the end of the fading splendor." (II Corinthians 3:7-13; RSV)

    The least of all students knows that Paul has misused God's Holy Scripture here. This is not what the story in Exodus relates to us, nor is the meaning that Paul gives to it the truth. Moses' face was lit with a light that came from speaking with God! The 'dispensation of death' Paul speaks of is the, Ten Commandments, and he dares to say that it is fading, that God's work is temporary and incomplete? Those are his words, it must be his intent.

    By, The Law, Paul means not only the ceremonial functions, but the entire legal canon established by the Pentateuch and embodied in Judaism. (The Interpreter's Bible; Volume 10: Page 307)

    Whether we agree with Paul, or not, the fact is that he put down the Law of God, and that premise is also understood by Christian scholars.

    There are, as you might imagine, many instances in Acts that refute Paul.. heck, Paul goes so far as to contradict himself 4 times... all related to his "vision" where he decided that he was a Nazerite, an Apostle.
     
  17. Reader Nilus

    Reader Nilus SISU

    +230
    Eastern Orthodox
    Is it your feeling that everyone born before Jesus is now a resident of hell?
    Jeff the Finn
     
  18. Take up the Cross

    Take up the Cross New Member

    38
    +1
    Those born before Jesus were justified by faith in a future Messiah. It is the same for the OT worthies as it is for us.

    Kyle
     
  19. Reader Nilus

    Reader Nilus SISU

    +230
    Eastern Orthodox
    What about the ancient Greeks or Celts? Are they now burning in hell?
    Jeff the Finn
     
  20. okeydokey

    okeydokey New Member

    63
    +0
    It is my hope that every human is given one last chance a split second before they die to change their heart and mind and accept the truth. This is a weird concept because it would mean those in the process of commiting suicide bombing could go to heaven. (speaking as a christian that is)
     
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