ISteveB
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- Sep 17, 2020
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Well, you did walk in the door. This is what happens when you do that.Your Q: "What if you're simply not in the crew of Jesus followers who are praying for the impossible, and where the impossible is taking place, it's so dangerous--- say China--- to say anything about it beyond those whose lives are so impacted?"
My answer: I find it hard to imagine you still want to press this question of me? But here's my answer regardless....
At least where I'm from.
I think you're simply on the wrong continent. From what I read in Nik Ripken's book--- The Insanity of Obedience-- Christians in China are doing more than just praying, they're receiving answers to their prayers in the affirmative on such healings.I find it extremely difficult to believe that no one on earth is praying for restoration of missing limb(s), removal of cerebral palsy, and/or to eradicate Downs syndrome for a loved one?
Amazon.com : nik ripken books
As the OP indicates, we have the plausible reasons:
A. Christians know 'God' will not answer the call to such requests...
B. Some Christians are actually praying for such requests, but God is perpetually not responding...
C. God ignores certain prayer requests, (which seems to include all of amputees, CP, and Downs)...
D. Other?
we have plausible reasons.... have they helped you gain awareness of God, or are you still without knowledge of God?
I find myself wondering--- do you actually want to know God, or are you just looking for excuses to not know him?
My experience with atheists online for the past 20+ years has been they'd rather argue, instead of do what God says.
As a result, they've spent decades arguing with complete strangers, who took mere moments to meet God, on God's terms, and the atheists still know nothing but really impressive, but invalid arguments to avoid knowing.
So..... what do YOU want?
God, or arguments?
I stopped needing agreement of people a long time ago. Perhaps it's just because I've been married for over 30 years now.
Great, but EVEN if the Bible were true, good luck getting agreement, even among within Christians
There's only One with whom I need agreement--- that's God.
As Abraham Lincoln said-- I don't need God on my side. I need to be on God's side.
As I know God is never wrong, and I know I'm often wrong, I'd rather align myself with God, so I can learn how to agree with him.
I'd rather be wrong in the eyes of the entire planet, and be right in the eyes of God, than the other way around.
I know you did. And I then responded appropriately. Your provided response presents a pickle...
Ok. Let's do it this way....
I don't want appropriate.
I want honest.
Tell me what you really want.
I don't believe in arguments, or debates.
As Paul told the Corinthians.
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Spiritual Wisdom
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.Furthermore.... Looks as though God perpetually skips over any/all requests to restore amputees, cerebral palsy, and Downs. I'm willing to bet that many of such requests, to reverse such conditions, are asked of Him in complete earnest -- from true believers.
And I think it's something entirely different. I'm still working through it, but I don't believe that Occam's razor is talking easy. And I do think too many people conflate easy and simple.
Simple, is seldom if ever easy.
I learned that in my physics studies.
What you think you see is not always an accurate perspective on what actually is.
Jesus says otherwise. Luke 18.I'm simply following the 'logic' of your provided response.
If God answers, according to His will, then prayer is irrelevant. He's going to do what He's going to do. And if He instead answers prayer, which was not already in His defined predestined will, then God did not will the actual outcome.
1 Then He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, 2 saying: “There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. 3 Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, ‘Get justice for me from my adversary.’ 4 And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, ‘Though I do not fear God nor regard man, 5 yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.’ ”
6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
6 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. 7 And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? 8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
As for this idea of predestination.... there is only one people group who is predestined... and we're only predestined to become like Jesus.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
absolutely no other people are predestined at all.
Then why are all requests to reverse amputees, CP, and Downs ignored?
I think the one's you're aware of are ignored, by your ideas of ignored.
I think you're simply not in the "in crowd" of those for whom they are not ignored. In which case, I'd say you have an entirely different problem you need to deal with first.
Will this be the standard by which you exclude yourself from heaven? Will this be the wall/bastion upon which you stand, as a sentry against truth, so you can have the appearance of being justified?
That is indeed your prerogative, but is a bad position which will ultimately destroy you, really worth holding your ground for?
I feel you continue to completely miss my point. BTW, God does not 'owe me anything.' What I observe, is that God is not answering the call to anyone's request to reverse an amputee, whom has CP, or Downs. Looks like He skips such requests, even though we seem to have countless anecdotal claims for God curing many other 'conditions and illnesses'?
Oh, I don't know. It looks pretty clear to me. You believe that you, indeed all atheists who, need this one tiny, genuinely insignificant piece of ground, to stand, as though it's the end all, of all truth, for no other reason than you think you're justified.
If I hadn't seen as much as I have in life, I'd probably feel the same. But the problem I'm having here is--- I have seen all that I have in life. And by the atheist grasping onto this, as though it's the sum of all truth, it seems to me that you're excluding yourself from learning more.
I don't see it as a good place to be. Definitely not healthy. In one sense, it seems to me to be the tirades of a spoiled child who isn't given a plate filled with candy before dinner.
Again, I reiterate--- I think you're on the wrong continent, hanging with the wrong people.
Can you explain, in light of the fact you yourself state that God answers the call to all prayer; if done in complete earnest? Why does God not answer the call to prayer for these conditions, like it's so often claimed He does so for other conditions?
Just because you're not seeing such things in the newspapers, on the news media does not mean they're not happening.
As stated before-- I'm a stage 4 metastatic melanoma cancer survivor. ALL of my doctors have stated that my survival from cancer is miraculous. They've said that I've exceeded their medical know-how, and technology.
I've asked them to write a paper on it.... none of them are interested. I have to say-- I don't understand that. I'd think that such an event would be newsworthy, at the very least in the field of oncology. But they're all practitioners, not researchers. they've made it clear they have no interest in writing a journal article. So, when they tell me--- you are a miracle, I find myself wondering why, and have simply asked them to stop telling me that.
In the end, the universe doesn't revolve around what you, or I think matters.
So, making this the sum total of all reality for why God cannot be real.... it really is a bad position to cling onto.
Actually it is....Belief is not a choice.
So, this statement makes me wonder if you actually understand the idea of belief.
Nobody has ever stuck a gun to my head, and told me I have to believe.
I get up each new day, and I choose to believe God.
Biblical belief is a confidence, a trust.
I did not originally know if God was real or not.
I took a chance and I asked.
God answered. I knew at that moment, based on the answer, I wanted to believe him.
Every day since, in the good and bad times, I've had to learn what genuine belief was.
I've learned that biblical belief is indeed a choice. I choose to believe God, because I know he's reliable, dependable, faithful, and steadfast to what he's said.
I want that kind of reliability in my life. I actually like that kind of reliability in my life. It's not like I'll ever find it anywhere else, nor have I found it anywhere, or in anyone, else.
This is about our state before God.Thank you for the sermon. However, you do raise an interesting point. What we seem to have here is coercion, or an ultimatum. God has the ability to set any stage He wishes. If God is 'pure love', seems odd that the only alternative realm for humans to reside, outside of Heaven, is a place of eternal torture.
Adam was created a living soul. He was in perfect harmony/union with God.
God told Adam about the trees, and if he ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he'd die.
Adam ate, and he died spiritually, immediately. This spiritual death resulted in his body slowly dying, just like if you pluck a plant out of the ground, and lay it there, it slowly withers, and is ultimately dead.
the only way to make alive that which has died, is to resurrect it.
Part of the problem then becomes--- it's necessary to resolve what caused the the offense, which resulted in death to begin with. What the bible calls sin. I.e., breaking God's commandments, by disobeying them. We read that the wages of sin is death. I.e., there's a penalty, and that penalty is death.
So, God dealt with the sin, by giving us his son, who took our sin on himself, and died in our place. To demonstrate that God is satisfied with what Jesus did, he raised him from the dead, to never again die.
Now, all God asks is that we place our trust in Jesus, and by doing so, God will apply the offering of Jesus to our account, and make us right with God.
In doing this, God removes our old stony heart of flesh, cleanses us from our sin, gives a new heart of flesh, and a new spirit, and places his own Spirit in us, and as a result, gives us the wherewithal to live in agreement with his commands, and statutes, and ordinances.
So, God set the stage, and gives us the information we need, and we then need to make a choice..... do we place our trust in Jesus, so we can be made right with God, or do we tell God no, and live as we please, consequences be damned?
the bible says that God knows the end from the beginning. As such, he knows all the ways this could go, and has decided that there's no other way to do this. It has to be the way Jesus did it.
Apparently, unless you are an amputee, have cerebral palsy, or have Downs syndrome....
It's ironic that God has said the poor of this world are those who are rich in faith. James 2.
Look at you.... are you healthy? You appear intelligent enough to figure things out, and it hasn't helped you any beyond what appears to be an anger with God because he doesn't fit the way you think it should be done.
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