• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why do Christians have trouble with accepting Evolution?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hoghead1

Well-Known Member
Oct 27, 2015
4,911
741
78
✟8,968.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
H)w do evolutionists have a lower view of God, EastCoast? I would say we have an enriched view of God. Most laity go on the classical or traditional Christian model of God, whish, by the way, came largely from Hellenic philosophy. Accordingly God is wholly immutable, along with being void of body, parts, passions, compassion. Since God doesn't change, then nothing in the universe can change, and so the species can't change either. I don't accept this flat, cold, one-dimensional God. I think it cut out too many dimensions from God that should be there. I see God as having many dynamic aspects. I see God has having emotion. I view God as a Cosmic Artist, not as Ruthless Moralist, Ruling Caesar, or Unmoved Mover. I see God as continually creative, continually seeking to actualize new forms of beauty. I think that is why there is an evolutionary process.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,563
12,021
Georgia
✟1,114,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Creationism grew out of religious speculation about origins and destiny. .

On the contrary - it grew out of legal code

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Why older than "modern guesswork"
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,563
12,021
Georgia
✟1,114,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The rest of your post is just icing on that cake.
-CryptoLutheran

This post?

========================================
==>QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 69494827, member: 235244"]

junk-science failed-religion Evolutionism has two forms:

Blind faith atheist evolutionism says “a pile of dirt is sure enough going to turn into a rabbit over time - given a sufficiently large pile of dirt over a sufficiently talented and long period of time (4.5 billion years) - filled with improbable just-so-stories"

T.E. says “In the beginning God scattered amoeba all over the planet then left – waiting for a sufficiently talented and long period of time (3.5 billion years) - filled with improbable just-so-stories so He could finally have a horse on planet earth"

To fair they have the same "amoeba will sure enough turn int a rabbit over time - given a sufficient amount of sunlight and a sufficiently talented and long period of time - filled with very improbable just-so-stories" as does the atheist evolutionist - for that part of their "story". They both at least have 'that' in common.

By contrasts to both of those false religions - The Bible says this - Exodus 20:11 - in legal code.

============================================

IS this where you point to some "detail" that you can prove to be in error??

Sure, the entire thing.

Again - another wonderful example of "focus on detail" missing in the argument for faith in evolutionism.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,563
12,021
Georgia
✟1,114,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,563
12,021
Georgia
✟1,114,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It's like saying "gravitationism" involves giant magnets making apples fall on people's heads.
-CryptoLutheran


Just not in "real life".

I real life this is what the high-priests of evolutionism say about their own religion in the past 150 years. (Statements you never find about physics in the last 150 years)

================================================================
As we saw that again in the case of the fraudulent horse series

"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.


"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.

============================

The sorts of things world class scientists were not saying about gravity and thermodynamics in the 1980's and 1950's

Here is a fact already in evidence.

After the bold equivocation between junk-science evolutionism and actual science like the law of Gravity and the laws of thermodynamics - I pointed out the blunder - showing that in real life you don't see world class scientists saying the sorts of thing about gravity as evolutionism's own atheist scientists say about evolutionism.

============


Collin Patterson (atheist and diehard evolutionist to the day he died in 1998) - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history speaking at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 - said:

Patterson - quotes Gillespie's arguing that Christians

"'...holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'"

Patterson countered, "That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact (saying):'Yes it has...we know it has taken place.'"

"...Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that's true of me, and I think it's true of a good many of you in here...

"...,Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge , apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics..."

========================

A great example of what scientists do NOT say about the study of Gravity.

And yet... at no loss for large levels of glossing over details and equivocation - we could just "repeat" the suggestion for "gravitationism" as do some.

It's like saying "gravitationism" involves giant magnets making apples fall on people's heads.
-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟301,032.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Just not in "real life".

I real life this is what the high-priests of evolutionism say about their own religion in the past 150 years. (Statements you never find about physics in the last 150 years)

There you go again, trying to insult science by calling it a religion.
As we saw that again in the case of the fraudulent horse series

The horse series is not fraudulent. Horses did evolve.

"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.

The only problem with the evolution series presented in the past was it was too simple. Additional discoveries of additional fossil species means we have enough alternate possibilities for the chain of descent to modern horses and its tricky to pick between them definitively.

Its still as true as ever that the only reason for the continued attack on the theory of evolution has nothing to do with evidence, nothing to do with reality, but is all a great desire to keep the same religious viewpoint in place, including all those parts out of touch with reality.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,563
12,021
Georgia
✟1,114,711.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
It's like saying "gravitationism" involves giant magnets making apples fall on people's heads.
-CryptoLutheran


Just not in "real life".

I real life this is what the high-priests of evolutionism say about their own religion in the past 150 years. (Statements you never find about physics in the last 150 years)

===============================================
As we saw that again in the case of the fraudulent horse series

"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.


"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.

============================

The sorts of things world class scientists were not saying about gravity and thermodynamics in the 1980's and 1950's

Here is a fact already in evidence.

After the bold equivocation between junk-science evolutionism and actual science like the law of Gravity and the laws of thermodynamics - I pointed out the blunder - showing that in real life you don't see world class scientists saying the sorts of thing about gravity as evolutionism's own atheist scientists say about evolutionism.

============


Collin Patterson (atheist and diehard evolutionist to the day he died in 1998) - Paleontologist British Museum of Natural history speaking at the American Museum of Natural History in 1981 - said:

Patterson - quotes Gillespie's arguing that Christians

"'...holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'"

Patterson countered, "That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact (saying):'Yes it has...we know it has taken place.'"

"...Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that's true of me, and I think it's true of a good many of you in here...

"...,Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge , apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics..."

========================

A great example of what scientists do NOT say about the study of Gravity.

And yet... at no loss for large levels of glossing over details and equivocation - we could just "repeat" the suggestion for "gravitationism" as do some.

It's like saying "gravitationism" involves giant magnets making apples fall on people's heads.
-CryptoLutheran


There you go again, trying to insult science by calling it a religion.

Just no "in real life".

In real life I call the junk-science religion of evolutionism - a religion but not chemistry, observable biology, physics etc

Not saying you cannot continue to 'believe" that Genesis 1 says that God came here to create amoeba's - wait 3.5 billion years then finally -- at last - get a horse on planet earth. If that's your religious conviction - have at it.


Now as for that horse...

===============================================
As we saw that again in the case of the fraudulent horse series

"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.


"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.

============================

So then "ignoring every detail in that post" we have ....

The horse series is not fraudulent. Horses did evolve.

Othaniel Marsh lied - his fraudulent horse "sequence" is STILL on display in the Smithsonian.

He simply "arranged" the examples in an order that his "imagination" told him to do - NOT according to how they are " found in the dirt" -- he made up the sequence AS IF that is how they appear -- it is not. But that was not "known" until about 50 years after the fraud was well accepted as the "BEST example" of blind faith evolutionism found in nature.


The only problem with the evolution series presented in the past was it was too simple.

NOW THAT spin-doctoring is truly "lamentable".

Alternate reality? OR is that what you think this "lament" by Niles Eldredge means??

"I admit that an awful lot of that [imaginary stories] has gotten into the textbooks as though it were true. For instance, the most famous example still on exhibit downstairs [in the American Museum of Natural History] is the exhibit on horse evolution prepared perhaps 50 years ago. That has been presented as literal truth in textbook after textbook. Now I think that that is lamentable ..."
Niles Eldredge, as quoted in Luther D Sunderland, Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, 4th ed. 1988, pg 78.


"The uniform continuous transformation of Hyracotherium into Equus, so dear to the hearts of generations of textbook writers, never happened in nature."—G.G. Simpson, Life of the Past (1953), p. 119.

============================
 
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,407
62
✟107,801.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
It becomes more and more apparent that all we have at evolutionism's is "wishful thinking".
If the Hebrews 6 day creation story wasn't in the Bible, then believers with common sense would likely have no issue with old earth and the progressive evolution of life. But trying to fit the facts of scientific observation into a Bronze Age creation story written for child like minds becomes a task akin to fitting a gallon into a quart.
 
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,407
62
✟107,801.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
On the contrary - it grew out of legal code

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Why older than "modern guesswork"

6 day creation was confused with the ancient oral traditions of incarnate Adam and Eve spending their first 6 days surveying their new garden home on earth prepared for them by loyalists who survived the fall of the "crafty beast".

Cain was the result of the sin, he would eventually leave Adams tribe in search of his true fathers people among the Nodites where he found a wife and a city.

When the Hebrew redactors were compiling information for their narratives in Babylon they used the best available to them.

It is a fact that regardless of the imperfections of the Old Testament scripture, it worked to held the Jews together after the devastating loss of the Nation.
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,006
54
the Hague NL
✟84,942.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
6 day creation was confused with the ancient oral traditions of incarnate Adam and Eve spending their first 6 days surveying their new garden home on earth prepared for them by loyalists who survived the fall of the "crafty beast".
Hearsay.
Cain was the result of the sin, he would eventually leave Adams tribe in search of his true fathers people among the Nodites where he found a wife and a city.
Founded, not found.
 
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,407
62
✟107,801.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Hearsay.Founded, not found.

You can call it Hearsay, but that doesn't mean its not true or at least a plausible explanation for the contradictory fragments of the Hebrews creation narrative.

Hearsay is an invention of church government to maintain control over the flock lest they think for themselves and question the writings of the same church government lineage that claims it's own writings came from God.

The church is guilty of atrocities in the name of hearsay. It's also guilty of perpetuating ignorance as illustrated by the anti intellectualism demonstrated in this thread.
 
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,407
62
✟107,801.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Apparently many are rather reluctant to come to terms with that fact.
Young earth creationism is a faith not a fact. Religion, while preserving values and spiritual truth, also preserves the limited understanding of past ages.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,006
54
the Hague NL
✟84,942.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You can call it Hearsay, but that doesn't mean its not true or at least a plausible explanation for the contradictory fragments of the Hebrews creation narrative.
It's hearsay because there's no evidence for it. But you 'hear' people 'say' it anyways.
"Conjecture" would have been a better term.
But i could have been friendlier though...
I think i ḿ getting a little tired of the whole controversy...
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,006
54
the Hague NL
✟84,942.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Young earth creationism is a faith not a fact.
The faith is a fact.
But that's not what i was addressing.
Religion, while preserving values and spiritual truth, also preserves the limited understanding of past ages.
PEOPLE may do this though, but religion doesn't mean being unreasonable or blind.
Jesus says to seek truth, test everything.
That refutes your assumption.
 
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,407
62
✟107,801.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
It's hearsay because there's no evidence for it. But you 'hear' people 'say' it anyways.
"Conjecture" would have been a better term.
But i could have been friendlier though...
I think i ḿ getting a little tired of the whole controversy...

There is some evidence in the Genesis account that is inconsistent with the generally accepted story of a young earth and an original sin. The 6 days that Adam and Eve spent surveying the garden comes from the Urantia revelation so yes, that would be conjecture.
 
Upvote 0

Colter

Member
Nov 9, 2004
8,711
1,407
62
✟107,801.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
The faith is a fact.
But that's not what i was addressing.
PEOPLE may do this though, but religion doesn't mean being unreasonable or blind.
Jesus says to seek truth, test everything.
That refutes your assumption.
We agree, Jesus did encourage us to seek truth. Jesus knew what the truth was but it was not his mission to fix the errors of mans conjecture about creation. Jesus quoted what he thought was true in scripture, but we might just assume that means he though it was all true.
 
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,006
54
the Hague NL
✟84,942.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is some evidence in the Genesis account that is inconsistent with the generally accepted story of a young earth and an original sin. The 6 days that Adam and Eve spent surveying the garden comes from the Urantia revelation so yes, that would be conjecture.
There's no evidence to support your claim of Genesis borrowing from other religious concepts.
Not even for your 6 days after creation.
It has little to do with the topic either.
Urantia book is form 1924.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.