Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[throughfiierytrial]

Two things.
1) I don't see how it matters from a moral accountability perspective of Satan is God's enemy in the story of Lot. The story is the same either way. Satan asks god for permission to do horrible things to Lot. God knowing what he would do allows him to do it. Is God morally responsible for the acts that he knowingly allowed his enemy to commit?
2) The Thessalonians passage is even worse because you remove the middle man all together. In that story god will send them a strong delusion (read lz will deceive them/lie) specifically so that they will not turn to him and accept salvation. Is this a morally good act in your opinion?

I did already address this comment to a degree, but want to go further in pointing you to another Scripture passage to prove my comment which was that one can still turn to God under any delusion He might send a man (due to unbelief).
Psalm 4:1-3:
Answer me when I call to you,
my righteous God.
Give me relief from my distress;
have mercy on me and hear my prayer.
How long will you people turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Know that the Lord has set apart his faithful servant for himself;
the Lord hears when I call to him.
I included surrounding passages in hopes to uplift you and instruct you in the storm coming your way, or rather that may be coming your way...to test your faith. I offer you these in sincerity and in hopes you will make a great effort to turn to God...test Him and find that He is real. Maybe make an effort to pray that He reveal Himself to you and grant you faith. These Psalms are prayer-songs and great models for our own prayer.
Godspeed!

 

[Athée]

I did already address this comment to a degree, but want to go further in pointing you to another Scripture passage to prove my comment which was that one can still turn to God under any delusion He might send a man (due to unbelief).
Psalm 4:1-3:
Answer me when I call to you,
my righteous God.
Give me relief from my distress;
have mercy on me and hear my prayer.
How long will you people turn my glory into shame?
How long will you love delusions and seek false gods?
Know that the Lord has set apart his faithful servant for himself;
the Lord hears when I call to him.
I included surrounding passages in hopes to uplift you and instruct you in the storm coming your way, or rather that may be coming your way...to test your faith. I offer you these in sincerity and in hopes you will make a great effort to turn to God...test Him and find that He is real. Maybe make an effort to pray that He reveal Himself to you and grant you faith. These Psalms are prayer-songs and great models for our own prayer.
Godspeed!

Maybe I am particularly slow today but I don't see how anything in your comment mitigates the moral responsibility of God in the story of Job. Moreover I don't see how the fact that people can suffer delusion and then later come to belive in God is analogous to God himself deliberately causing people to be deluded for the purpose of excluding them from salvation, which is what the thessalonians bit is describing. Maybe you could clear that up for me?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Maybe I am particularly slow today but I don't see how anything in your comment mitigates the moral responsibility of God in the story of Job. Moreover I don't see how the fact that people can suffer delusion and then later come to belive in God is analogous to God himself deliberately causing people to be deluded for the purpose of excluding them from salvation, which is what the thessalonians bit is describing. Maybe you could clear that up for me?

I am addressing only the Thessalonians passage which states the Lord will send a powerful delusion because they fail to love the Truth and so be saved. You seemed to feel this was a particularly disturbing passage or fact about God.
The wages of sin is death says the Bible...spiritual death and physical death. You seem to bypass this fact all too readily. Before we know God we are dead in our sins. God interrupts this cycle and rescues us; He redeemed us by the blood of His son Jesus. Jesus suffered much on this earth and we are told that we will suffer with Him and be treated by the world just as it treated Jesus, our Head. If you have unruly children they need to be dealt with to save them from not only the earthly consequences of sin, but the eternal consequences of sin...so it is with God in disciplining His sons.

 

[Athée]

I am addressing only the Thessalonians passage which states the Lord will send a powerful delusion because they fail to love the Truth and so be saved. You seemed to feel this was a particularly disturbing passage or fact about God.
The wages of sin is death says the Bible...spiritual death and physical death. You seem to bypass this fact all too readily. Before we know God we are dead in our sins. God interrupts this cycle and rescues us; He redeemed us by the blood of His son Jesus. Jesus suffered much on this earth and we are told that we will suffer with Him and be treated by the world just as it treated Jesus, our Head. If you have unruly children they need to be dealt with to save them from not only the earthly consequences of sin, but the eternal consequences of sin...so it is with God in disciplining His sons.

Sure, which is why I find this passage so disturbing. We see gods children, made in his image, witnessing the error of their prior choices. They, seeing at last the truth of things, desire to come back to God. For his part god, knowing that if they do in fact repent that they will end up saved, sends them a delusion so as to keep them from this salvation. That doesn't trouble you?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Sure, which is why I find this passage so disturbing. We see gods children, made in his image, witnessing the error of their prior choices. They, seeing at last the truth of things, desire to come back to God. For his part god, knowing that if they do in fact repent that they will end up saved, sends them a delusion so as to keep them from this salvation. That doesn't trouble you?

This is a false statement or mistake on your part, the statement: They, seeing at last the truth of things, desire to come back to God. For his part god, knowing that if they do in fact repent that they will end up saved
No, God sends the powerful delusion because they fail to love the Truth and so be saved.

 

[Athée]

This is a false statement or mistake on your part, the statement: They, seeing at last the truth of things, desire to come back to God. For his part god, knowing that if they do in fact repent that they will end up saved
No, God sends the powerful delusion because they fail to love the Truth and so be saved.

I'm confused. That doesn't seem to make sense. If they were already believing a lie, already deluded then God wouldn't have to act in order to prevent them from attaining salvation. The way that passage reads to me is that in the last days, these people who until that point have refused the truth and believed a lie, are confronted with the truth as Jesus returns. Seeing the truth plainly happening they want a last minute conversion, an 11th hour change of heart. God makes sure that doesn't happen by deluding them. Where do you see it differently?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I'm confused. That doesn't seem to make sense. If they were already believing a lie, already deluded then God wouldn't have to act in order to prevent them from attaining salvation. The way that passage reads to me is that in the last days, these people who until that point have refused the truth and believed a lie, are confronted with the truth as Jesus returns. Seeing the truth plainly happening they want a last minute conversion, an 11th hour change of heart. God makes sure that doesn't happen by deluding them. Where do you see it differently?

I feel you either never read the Bible or have and read in disbelief so as to miss the big picture of the nature of God. He is a holy, righteous and patient judge. He is loving, merciful and forgiving. As for your comment I'll send these passages to add to the picture and get, hopefully, your comment on these....
Romans 1:18-27:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

 

[Athée]

I feel you either never read the Bible or have and read in disbelief so as to miss the big picture of the nature of God. He is a holy, righteous and patient judge. He is loving, merciful and forgiving. As for your comment I'll send these passages to add to the picture and get, hopefully, your comment on these....
Romans 1:18-27:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

That's a very interesting response. I assure you I have both read and studied the bible, although to be fair I have only read it cover to cover continuously 3 times, but lots of study in other ways during my years as a believer (and indeed in my more recent years as an atheist).
I also find it interesting that rather than deal with the specific verse we had at issue, you chose to zoom out to the larger picture, as if somehow that changes what the verse we were discussing says. I assume you have good reason for be living this to be the case, that something in the wider context makes it OK that in our specific verse god is deliberately excluding people from salvation, and I am curious as to what that might be?

As for the verses you presented I think what you are trying to show is that those wicked people in 2 Thessalonians had all the evidence they needed prior to the end times. For you then, it is OK that God condemned these people to eternal hell because they didn't see the truth soon enough, is that correct?
I would also point out that we can't reasonably assume that the verse in Romans applies to the people in 2 Thessalonians. In Romans who does God accuse of this wikedness, of supressing the truth? It says people but of course it can't mean all people unless Christians are also supressing the truth in unrighteousness ...
So what characteristics does it give us to identify the subset of people he is talking about..well they are:
They know God but don't worship
They claim wisdom but are foolish
They worship both human images and animal idols.
They were homosexual (both men and women)
And you have actually cut the verse off I belive because I seem to recall that there are more "they" statements than those expressed here.

So I really don't see how we can say with any certainty that the people in Thessalonians exhibited all these characteristics and even if they did and are the same group it doesn't actually change the action god took as far as I can see.
Where do you see it differently and how do you support those views?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That's a very interesting response. I assure you I have both read and studied the bible, although to be fair I have only read it cover to cover continuously 3 times, but lots of study in other ways during my years as a believer (and indeed in my more recent years as an atheist).
I also find it interesting that rather than deal with the specific verse we had at issue, you chose to zoom out to the larger picture, as if somehow that changes what the verse we were discussing says. I assume you have good reason for be living this to be the case, that something in the wider context makes it OK that in our specific verse god is deliberately excluding people from salvation, and I am curious as to what that might be?

As for the verses you presented I think what you are trying to show is that those wicked people in 2 Thessalonians had all the evidence they needed prior to the end times. For you then, it is OK that God condemned these people to eternal hell because they didn't see the truth soon enough, is that correct?
I would also point out that we can't reasonably assume that the verse in Romans applies to the people in 2 Thessalonians. In Romans who does God accuse of this wikedness, of supressing the truth? It says people but of course it can't mean all people unless Christians are also supressing the truth in unrighteousness ...
So what characteristics does it give us to identify the subset of people he is talking about..well they are:
They know God but don't worship
They claim wisdom but are foolish
They worship both human images and animal idols.
They were homosexual (both men and women)
And you have actually cut the verse off I belive because I seem to recall that there are more "they" statements than those expressed here.

So I really don't see how we can say with any certainty that the people in Thessalonians exhibited all these characteristics and even if they did and are the same group it doesn't actually change the action god took as far as I can see.
Where do you see it differently and how do you support those views?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

That's a very interesting response. I assure you I have both read and studied the bible, although to be fair I have only read it cover to cover continuously 3 times, but lots of study in other ways during my years as a believer (and indeed in my more recent years as an atheist).
I also find it interesting that rather than deal with the specific verse we had at issue, you chose to zoom out to the larger picture, as if somehow that changes what the verse we were discussing says. I assume you have good reason for be living this to be the case, that something in the wider context makes it OK that in our specific verse god is deliberately excluding people from salvation, and I am curious as to what that might be?

As for the verses you presented I think what you are trying to show is that those wicked people in 2 Thessalonians had all the evidence they needed prior to the end times. For you then, it is OK that God condemned these people to eternal hell because they didn't see the truth soon enough, is that correct?
I would also point out that we can't reasonably assume that the verse in Romans applies to the people in 2 Thessalonians. In Romans who does God accuse of this wikedness, of supressing the truth? It says people but of course it can't mean all people unless Christians are also supressing the truth in unrighteousness ...
So what characteristics does it give us to identify the subset of people he is talking about..well they are:
They know God but don't worship
They claim wisdom but are foolish
They worship both human images and animal idols.
They were homosexual (both men and women)
And you have actually cut the verse off I belive because I seem to recall that there are more "they" statements than those expressed here.

So I really don't see how we can say with any certainty that the people in Thessalonians exhibited all these characteristics and even if they did and are the same group it doesn't actually change the action god took as far as I can see.
Where do you see it differently and how do you support those views?

Sorry for the mistaken post above.
I am happy you have read the Bible at least three times and been in study...yet it does surprise me.
We are or were discussing the Thessalonians passage (in conjunction with the Psalm passage) and due to your continued distorted view of God's judgements/actions...from my viewpoint...I broadened the discussion only a bit to have you consider the nature of God in general. I pointed out among other things that He is a holy, righteous, yet patient judge and then I went on to post a passage pointing out His judgeship by example. There is no mystery as to my cut off point in the quote and am happy you read the surrounding passages...one usually assumes others will do this, but so often that is not the case, yet one must try to be brief.
Before I go on I'll try to address some of your questions of me...
God declares that these people in Romans knew God, but gave Him up in exchange for worldliness in one form or another. And yes, even Christians can suppress the truth through sin, difference is that the Christian repents and will try to repair any damage to those around him which could have been led astray.
There need be no exact correlation between the judgements issued in Romans and those of Thessalonians. In both instances God's judgement or judgeship is revealed and we see He is holy and righteous and demands righteousness and holy living from us. In these two cases there is no desire nor attempt to seek God's ways, to follow Him and His decrees. God does provide forgiveness through Christ due to human sinful nature and our many flaws and frailties (which was caused by ourselves through original sin). Christ is our answer, ALWAYS, Christ is our life!
So, again, though the Bible condemns us...through the law of God...it also points us to the answer...Christ. It is never too late to repent (aside from the unpardonable sin). One should never give up in despair, Christ is there. A big mistake/sin is to not avail oneself of grace through Christ.
As for the the delusion in Thessalonians, again, we see from Psalm 4:2 that even in this circumstance one can seek forgiveness and be saved or God would not reproach such people as "loving delusions and false gods" and yet ask "how long". We see also in Romans that God gives them over to themselves when such people give up God for false gods...same as giving them a delusion. What are the effects of a false delusion? Can it not be similar to a child in a candy store eating up all the candy possible...eventually that child should see the error of his ways and come out of the delusion and ask his parents for help in one form or another.
Hope this clarifies...I too am frustrated by our difficulties in communication.

 

[Athée]

OK, I am going to reply in line here be a use there is so much going on

T: Sorry for the mistaken post above.
I am happy you have read the Bible at least three times and been in study...yet it does surprise me.

A:Thanks and fair enough, I find it interesting how two people can read pretty much any book and come away with different things.

T:We are or were discussing the Thessalonians passage (in conjunction with the Psalm passage) and due to your continued distorted view of God's judgements/actions...from my viewpoint...I broadened the discussion only a bit to have you consider the nature of God in general.

A: does widening to a general discussion negate the revelations of a narrow and specific act of God. Imagine a human who gives to charities, volunteers, rescues puppies etc but also once murdered a man. Does the fact that in the wider context this is a great person change the fact that they are also a murder?

T: I pointed out among other things that He is a holy, righteous, yet patient judge and then I went on to post a passage pointing out His judgeship by example.


A: The Bible says these things for sure, that said I'm not convinced even on the evidence the Bible itself presents. To me God can be these things only if we assume that the words we use mean something completely different from what the Bible means when it says those things.


T: There is no mystery as to my cut off point in the quote and am happy you read the surrounding passages...one usually assumes others will do this, but so often that is not the case, yet one must try to be brief.
Before I go on I'll try to address some of your questions of me...
God declares that these people in Romans knew God, but gave Him up in exchange for worldliness in one form or another. And yes, even Christians can suppress the truth through sin, difference is that the Christian repents and will try to repair any damage to those around him which could have been led astray.

A: But the truth being suppressed is explicitly named, it is the truth that God exists. Are you saying that all Christians are suppressing the truth that God exists? If not then you have to conceded that this verse is not talking a out all humans but about a subset of humans. From there the text identifies which subset with a long list of their characteristics. Agreed?


T: There need be no exact correlation between the judgements issued in Romans and those of Thessalonians.

A: There does in light of my reading that the Romans passage refers to a specific group, if the Thessalonians people are not members of that group then the Romans verse doesn't apply.

T: In both instances God's judgement or judgeship is revealed and we see He is holy and righteous and demands righteousness and holy living from us. In these two cases there is no desire nor attempt to seek God's ways, to follow Him and His decrees.

A: This is not the case. In Thessalonians the people who formerly rejected the truth of God want to change their minds. But God doesn't want these people saved so he sends them a strong delusion so that they will continue to believe a lie.

T: God does provide forgiveness through Christ due to human sinful nature and our many flaws and frailties (which was caused by ourselves through original sin). Christ is our answer, ALWAYS, Christ is our life!
So, again, though the Bible condemns us...through the law of God...it also points us to the answer...Christ. It is never too late to repent (aside from the unpardonable sin).

A: Which is precisely the problem at issue in this verse. It turns out it was too late for these people, they wanted to be saved and God said no. I have thoughts on the Jesus's as sacrifice too but that will take us off topic even further.

T: One should never give up in despair, Christ is there. A big mistake/sin is to not avail oneself of grace through Christ.

A: grace that only comes by faith and faith that comes only as a gift from God, meaning that God chooses a few to get to heave to glorify him and sends the rest of the children made in his image to hell?

T: As for the the delusion in Thessalonians, again, we see from Psalm 4:2 that even in this circumstance one can seek forgiveness and be saved or God would not reproach such people as "loving delusions and false gods" and yet ask "how long". We see also in Romans that God gives them over to themselves when such people give up God for false gods...same as giving them a delusion. What are the effects of a false delusion? Can it not be similar to a child in a candy store eating up all the candy possible...eventually that child should see the error of his ways and come out of the delusion and ask his parents for help in one form or another.

A: You seem to be saying that the effect of a delusion is to eventually not be deluded. So that when God makes them believe a lie this is his way of showing them the truth? This seems to be doublespeak at its finest. The situation in Thessalonians is that people who used to believe a lie are awakened, by the end times, to the truth of God. Knowing that if they do so and repent, that they will be saved God sends them a delusion so that they will believe a lie. He does this to keep them from being saved.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

OK, I am going to reply in line here be a use there is so much going on

T: Sorry for the mistaken post above.
I am happy you have read the Bible at least three times and been in study...yet it does surprise me.

A:Thanks and fair enough, I find it interesting how two people can read pretty much any book and come away with different things.

T:We are or were discussing the Thessalonians passage (in conjunction with the Psalm passage) and due to your continued distorted view of God's judgements/actions...from my viewpoint...I broadened the discussion only a bit to have you consider the nature of God in general.

A: does widening to a general discussion negate the revelations of a narrow and specific act of God. Imagine a human who gives to charities, volunteers, rescues puppies etc but also once murdered a man. Does the fact that in the wider context this is a great person change the fact that they are also a murder?

T: I pointed out among other things that He is a holy, righteous, yet patient judge and then I went on to post a passage pointing out His judgeship by example.


A: The Bible says these things for sure, that said I'm not convinced even on the evidence the Bible itself presents. To me God can be these things only if we assume that the words we use mean something completely different from what the Bible means when it says those things.


T: There is no mystery as to my cut off point in the quote and am happy you read the surrounding passages...one usually assumes others will do this, but so often that is not the case, yet one must try to be brief.
Before I go on I'll try to address some of your questions of me...
God declares that these people in Romans knew God, but gave Him up in exchange for worldliness in one form or another. And yes, even Christians can suppress the truth through sin, difference is that the Christian repents and will try to repair any damage to those around him which could have been led astray.

A: But the truth being suppressed is explicitly named, it is the truth that God exists. Are you saying that all Christians are suppressing the truth that God exists? If not then you have to conceded that this verse is not talking a out all humans but about a subset of humans. From there the text identifies which subset with a long list of their characteristics. Agreed?


T: There need be no exact correlation between the judgements issued in Romans and those of Thessalonians.

A: There does in light of my reading that the Romans passage refers to a specific group, if the Thessalonians people are not members of that group then the Romans verse doesn't apply.

T: In both instances God's judgement or judgeship is revealed and we see He is holy and righteous and demands righteousness and holy living from us. In these two cases there is no desire nor attempt to seek God's ways, to follow Him and His decrees.

A: This is not the case. In Thessalonians the people who formerly rejected the truth of God want to change their minds. But God doesn't want these people saved so he sends them a strong delusion so that they will continue to believe a lie.

T: God does provide forgiveness through Christ due to human sinful nature and our many flaws and frailties (which was caused by ourselves through original sin). Christ is our answer, ALWAYS, Christ is our life!
So, again, though the Bible condemns us...through the law of God...it also points us to the answer...Christ. It is never too late to repent (aside from the unpardonable sin).

A: Which is precisely the problem at issue in this verse. It turns out it was too late for these people, they wanted to be saved and God said no. I have thoughts on the Jesus's as sacrifice too but that will take us off topic even further.

T: One should never give up in despair, Christ is there. A big mistake/sin is to not avail oneself of grace through Christ.

A: grace that only comes by faith and faith that comes only as a gift from God, meaning that God chooses a few to get to heave to glorify him and sends the rest of the children made in his image to hell?

T: As for the the delusion in Thessalonians, again, we see from Psalm 4:2 that even in this circumstance one can seek forgiveness and be saved or God would not reproach such people as "loving delusions and false gods" and yet ask "how long". We see also in Romans that God gives them over to themselves when such people give up God for false gods...same as giving them a delusion. What are the effects of a false delusion? Can it not be similar to a child in a candy store eating up all the candy possible...eventually that child should see the error of his ways and come out of the delusion and ask his parents for help in one form or another.

A: You seem to be saying that the effect of a delusion is to eventually not be deluded. So that when God makes them believe a lie this is his way of showing them the truth? This seems to be doublespeak at its finest. The situation in Thessalonians is that people who used to believe a lie are awakened, by the end times, to the truth of God. Knowing that if they do so and repent, that they will be saved God sends them a delusion so that they will believe a lie. He does this to keep them from being saved.

 

[Athée]

?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

?

I gave the "head-slap" emoticon because I saw your conversation with throughfireytrial, and I thought that neither of you were quite "getting" the meaning of the theme you were discussing. The head-slap also represents my aversion to entering into discussions already in progress between others here because it can quickly devolve into a debate, which is something this particular forum niche isn't supposed to turn into.

 

[Athée]

I gave the "head-slap" emoticon because I saw your conversation with throughfireytrial, and I thought that neither of you were quite "getting" the meaning of the theme you were discussing. The head-slap also represents my aversion to entering into discussions already in progress between others here because it can quickly devolve into a debate, which is something this particular forum niche isn't supposed to turn into.

Although it would nicely illustrate the topic of the OP
Feel free to PM me about what I have wrong in your view, I always enjoy engaging with your perspective.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Although it would nicely illustrate the topic of the OP
Feel free to PM me about what I have wrong in your view, I always enjoy engaging with your perspective.

Maybe shortly. But since I only came in at the tail-end of your discussion with TFT, I'm going through the 'chain' of discussion between the two of you to see what was actually said.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

OK, I am going to reply in line here be a use there is so much going on

T: Sorry for the mistaken post above.
I am happy you have read the Bible at least three times and been in study...yet it does surprise me.

A:Thanks and fair enough, I find it interesting how two people can read pretty much any book and come away with different things.

T:We are or were discussing the Thessalonians passage (in conjunction with the Psalm passage) and due to your continued distorted view of God's judgements/actions...from my viewpoint...I broadened the discussion only a bit to have you consider the nature of God in general.

A: does widening to a general discussion negate the revelations of a narrow and specific act of God. Imagine a human who gives to charities, volunteers, rescues puppies etc but also once murdered a man. Does the fact that in the wider context this is a great person change the fact that they are also a murder?

T: I pointed out among other things that He is a holy, righteous, yet patient judge and then I went on to post a passage pointing out His judgeship by example.


A: The Bible says these things for sure, that said I'm not convinced even on the evidence the Bible itself presents. To me God can be these things only if we assume that the words we use mean something completely different from what the Bible means when it says those things.


T: There is no mystery as to my cut off point in the quote and am happy you read the surrounding passages...one usually assumes others will do this, but so often that is not the case, yet one must try to be brief.
Before I go on I'll try to address some of your questions of me...
God declares that these people in Romans knew God, but gave Him up in exchange for worldliness in one form or another. And yes, even Christians can suppress the truth through sin, difference is that the Christian repents and will try to repair any damage to those around him which could have been led astray.

A: But the truth being suppressed is explicitly named, it is the truth that God exists. Are you saying that all Christians are suppressing the truth that God exists? If not then you have to conceded that this verse is not talking a out all humans but about a subset of humans. From there the text identifies which subset with a long list of their characteristics. Agreed?


T: There need be no exact correlation between the judgements issued in Romans and those of Thessalonians.

A: There does in light of my reading that the Romans passage refers to a specific group, if the Thessalonians people are not members of that group then the Romans verse doesn't apply.

T: In both instances God's judgement or judgeship is revealed and we see He is holy and righteous and demands righteousness and holy living from us. In these two cases there is no desire nor attempt to seek God's ways, to follow Him and His decrees.

A: This is not the case. In Thessalonians the people who formerly rejected the truth of God want to change their minds. But God doesn't want these people saved so he sends them a strong delusion so that they will continue to believe a lie.

T: God does provide forgiveness through Christ due to human sinful nature and our many flaws and frailties (which was caused by ourselves through original sin). Christ is our answer, ALWAYS, Christ is our life!
So, again, though the Bible condemns us...through the law of God...it also points us to the answer...Christ. It is never too late to repent (aside from the unpardonable sin).

A: Which is precisely the problem at issue in this verse. It turns out it was too late for these people, they wanted to be saved and God said no. I have thoughts on the Jesus's as sacrifice too but that will take us off topic even further.

T: One should never give up in despair, Christ is there. A big mistake/sin is to not avail oneself of grace through Christ.

A: grace that only comes by faith and faith that comes only as a gift from God, meaning that God chooses a few to get to heave to glorify him and sends the rest of the children made in his image to hell?

T: As for the the delusion in Thessalonians, again, we see from Psalm 4:2 that even in this circumstance one can seek forgiveness and be saved or God would not reproach such people as "loving delusions and false gods" and yet ask "how long". We see also in Romans that God gives them over to themselves when such people give up God for false gods...same as giving them a delusion. What are the effects of a false delusion? Can it not be similar to a child in a candy store eating up all the candy possible...eventually that child should see the error of his ways and come out of the delusion and ask his parents for help in one form or another.

A: You seem to be saying that the effect of a delusion is to eventually not be deluded. So that when God makes them believe a lie this is his way of showing them the truth? This seems to be doublespeak at its finest. The situation in Thessalonians is that people who used to believe a lie are awakened, by the end times, to the truth of God. Knowing that if they do so and repent, that they will be saved God sends them a delusion so that they will believe a lie. He does this to keep them from being saved.

I am not very competent with the inline quoting feature of this site so forgive me please if I try to address you as a whole...please point out what I may miss so that I may address that too.

We do in fact find different meanings for what is written both in the Thessalonians passage interpretation and the Romans passages. (So much for me "clearing up" any misunderstandings through focusing on the nature of God in general.)

II Thessalonians 2:9-12, (NIV 1984):
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in all sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Those people who will receive a powerful delusion are refusing the Gospel...they refuse to love the Truth and so be saved. Remember, God knows the heart of a man. You really must not attempt to charge God with wrongdoing or poor judgement or as lacking in holiness and righteousness. There are those people who stubbornly refuse Jesus and love wickedness.

Romans 1:18-20, NIV 1984:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So, it is the wicked acts of a man which serves to suppress the Truth. One's wicked acts tell the bystander that to engage in such acts are a suitable way to conduct one's self in the world. It supplants the Truth to the extent these acts are witnessed and pardoned.

I can expound on this Roman's passage, but will leave it here in hopes you understand what I am trying to say. But, I will add here that it especially egregious should someone known for his Christianity commit visible sin in view of others. That really supplants the Truth and gives birth to temptations and unruliness in general and perhaps even culminating in hatred toward Christianity which is in reality hatred towards God or rebellion toward Him.

To be deluded is serious punishment to be certain. But sometimes one may see they've gotten out of control and turn to God. No double-speak...it's a possible explanation of Psalm 4.

God does discipline His sons...no doubt...Hebrews 12 and this is to help them grow in righteousness and faith and all the attributes they lack.

 

[Serving Zion]

Hello OP, it seems important to not overlook a few important points in this post.

T:We are or were discussing the Thessalonians passage (in conjunction with the Psalm passage) and due to your continued distorted view of God's judgements/actions...from my viewpoint...I broadened the discussion only a bit to have you consider the nature of God in general.

A: does widening to a general discussion negate the revelations of a narrow and specific act of God. Imagine a human who gives to charities, volunteers, rescues puppies etc but also once murdered a man. Does the fact that in the wider context this is a great person change the fact that they are also a murder?

Why would you suppose that any good can possibly justify bad, when the ones who are wronged by the bad are still resentful?

If we take away all of the bad, then all that is left will be good.

T: In both instances God's judgement or judgeship is revealed and we see He is holy and righteous and demands righteousness and holy living from us. In these two cases there is no desire nor attempt to seek God's ways, to follow Him and His decrees.

A: This is not the case. In Thessalonians the people who formerly rejected the truth of God want to change their minds. But God doesn't want these people saved so he sends them a strong delusion so that they will continue to believe a lie.

This passage is describing the renewal of The Kingdom of God in the last days. There is a particularly destructive lie, and God subjects all believers to a strong delusion that they should believe the lie, so that they may be judged for having not delighted in truth and righteousness. Also, you may benefit from correlating Matthew 13:24-30, 2 Peter 2:1, Luke 12:50. Luke 3:16-17 and Revelation 3:21.

T: God does provide forgiveness through Christ due to human sinful nature and our many flaws and frailties (which was caused by ourselves through original sin). Christ is our answer, ALWAYS, Christ is our life!
So, again, though the Bible condemns us...through the law of God...it also points us to the answer...Christ. It is never too late to repent (aside from the unpardonable sin).

A: Which is precisely the problem at issue in this verse. It turns out it was too late for these people, they wanted to be saved and God said no. I have thoughts on the Jesus's as sacrifice too but that will take us off topic even further.

I rather that you have the right idea about Jesus' sacrifice, considering the great delusion to believe the lie that is prevalent in these days. You need to have full confidence that your position is properly informed, for your opinion to be qualified. I recommend that you should create a new thread to investigate and find the truth of the problem you have identified.

 

[Athée]

T: i am not very competent with the inline quoting feature of this site so forgive me please if I try to address you as a whole...please point out what I may miss so that I may address that too.

A: depending on what platform you are using there is a very handy quote feature you can use. I do all this on my phone so I just quote the whole thing, then remove the html ( the bit that reads [quote/ ] so that I can respond inline.

You didn't seem to to respond to my analogy about the murderer.



T: We do in fact find different meanings for what is written both in the Thessalonians passage interpretation and the Romans passages. (So much for me "clearing up" any misunderstandings through focusing on the nature of God in general.)

A: This is why I started the thread in the first place. It seems like Christians have a hard time agreeing on who or what their God is.

T:

II Thessalonians 2:9-12, (NIV 1984):
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in all sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Those people who will receive a powerful delusion are refusing the Gospel...they refuse to love the Truth and so be saved. Remember, God knows the heart of a man. You really must not attempt to charge God with wrongdoing or poor judgement or as lacking in holiness and righteousness. There are those people who stubbornly refuse Jesus and love wickedness.

A: So here are my questions about this.
1) Why does God send the strong delusion, what specific reason does the passage give?
2) Why did God need to act by deluding them, what would have happened if he hadn't.
3) It seems based on your analysis that you agree that God does in fact deceive people. Is that the case?


T:

Romans 1:18-20, NIV 1984:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

So, it is the wicked acts of a man which serves to suppress the Truth. One's wicked acts tell the bystander that to engage in such acts are a suitable way to conduct one's self in the world. It supplants the Truth to the extent these acts are witnessed and pardoned.

I can expound on this Roman's passage, but will leave it here in hopes you understand what I am trying to say. But, I will add here that it especially egregious should someone known for his Christianity commit visible sin in view of others. That really supplants the Truth and gives birth to temptations and unruliness in general and perhaps even culminating in hatred toward Christianity which is in reality hatred towards God or rebellion toward Him.

A: I am not sure you can get all that from this passage alone but that's no big problem. The issue for me is how we identify this group of people. So my questions are.
1) What specific truth is being suppressed?
2) Do all humans supress this specific truth?
3) If no to 2, what subset do and what subset don't?


T:

To be deluded is serious punishment to be certain. But sometimes one may see they've gotten out of control and turn to God. No double-speak...it's a possible explanation of Psalm 4.

A: I don't see how this explains psalm 4. Is Psalms there is no indication that God deluded people, rather they did it to themselves and so can come back to belief. In Thessalonians they don't do it themselves, God specifically deludes them. Thus to say, as you did, that God deludes them so that they will eventually see the truth seems counterintuitive to me.

Maybe though this is another possible answer to the thread topic. God could lead all believers to truth but deliberately chooses to delude some of the them?

 

[Athée]

Hello OP, it seems important to not overlook a few important points in this post.

Why would you suppose that any good can possibly justify bad, when the ones who are wronged by the bad are still resentful?

If we take away all of the bad, then all that is left will be good.

This passage is describing the renewal of The Kingdom of God in the last days. There is a particularly destructive lie, and God subjects all believers to a strong delusion that they should believe the lie, so that they may be judged for having not delighted in truth and righteousness. Also, you may benefit from correlating Matthew 13:24-30, 2 Peter 2:1, Luke 12:50. Luke 3:16-17 and Revelation 3:21.

I rather that you have the right idea about Jesus' sacrifice, considering the great delusion to believe the lie that is prevalent in these days. You need to have full confidence that your position is properly informed, for your opinion to be qualified. I recommend that you should create a new thread to investigate and find the truth of the problem you have identified.

I'm confused. The point of my analogy was that being great in other ways doesn't make the man any less a murderer, the point being that saying God is loving and just etc doesn't change the discussion of the specific instance in Thessalonians where God deliberately mislead people.

As for your reading of Thessalonians you seem to be saying that there are believing Christians that God doesn't want to get salvation so he deludes them, that they would be live a lie and be condemned.
Is that correct?