Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

[throughfiierytrial]

And I'll say just the opposite of both the above responses which were:
The Holy Spirit isn't going to magically beam the truth of Scripture into our brains, because that isn't how He works, and because the Bible isn't magic.

Well, to use a derogatory phrase like that you aren't seriously addressing the issue and no one would say the Holy Spirit is magical...no, He's miraculous!

Scripture says not to add or subtract from it so how does one get away from Bible-only? But then, that's one of the areas of the Bible you are giving yourself license to disagree with, I understand.

So much could be said in response, but I don't have the time to devote, I simply want to express my very serious and grave dissent to these opinions.
I John 2:20-21
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth.

James 3:15:
Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil.

Not all are granted the same measure of wisdom; the gifts are given in different measures to the many. We see this in I Corinthians as well as the parables.

 

[Athée]

Well everyone that you so much for your thoughts. It seems to me that we are drawing to a close on this thread so I thought I would try to sumarize things as I understood them so far. It seems like the majority opinion is that the Holy Spirit does indeed lead true believers into all truth but that this process is frustrated by various human deficiencies. Holders of this view seem to believe that either the holy Spirit is incapable of overcoming these deficiencies (minority) or has reasons unknown (although some have speculated) for allowing the confusion to persist. Others respond that many bible passages cry out for a true unity among the body and that God is no the author of confusion and so insist that it is indeed the fault of sinful men.
A minority among you take the position that we have misunderstood the bible on this subject and that the holy Spirit is not a truth dispenser but does play some role in guiding a believer.
I confess that for myself I remain puzzled by all of this. It seems odd to me that God would allow the single most important message ever delivered to humanity to be so misunderstood and misrepresented. Of course this is not a defeator for the "gods ways are not our ways" and "god has a plan" apologetics. It simply seems to me to be more probable that the Bible is a human written book, not inspired with an objective truth, being interpreted by diverse elements of humanity with different beliefs and experience, all in the absence of a god to set them straight. In other words on the hypothesis that God does not exist, the confusion surrounding the bible is expected, whereas on the hypothesis that God does exist and wants his creatures to belive true things, it seems less probable (although not imossible).

Thank you so much to everyone who participated and put time and effort into making this an awesome conversation.
I also recognize that this post will likely engender some response so if the believers among you feel like the above demands a response, please feel free I am happy to allow you the last word on the matter, it is after all your forum!
Peace,
Athée

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well everyone that you so much for your thoughts. It seems to me that we are drawing to a close on this thread so I thought I would try to sumarize things as I understood them so far. It seems like the majority opinion is that the Holy Spirit does indeed lead true believers into all truth but that this process is frustrated by various human deficiencies. Holders of this view seem to believe that either the holy Spirit is incapable of overcoming these deficiencies (minority) or has reasons unknown (although some have speculated) for allowing the confusion to persist. Others respond that many bible passages cry out for a true unity among the body and that God is no the author of confusion and so insist that it is indeed the fault of sinful men.
A minority among you take the position that we have misunderstood the bible on this subject and that the holy Spirit is not a truth dispenser but does play some role in guiding a believer.
I confess that for myself I remain puzzled by all of this. It seems odd to me that God would allow the single most important message ever delivered to humanity to be so misunderstood and misrepresented. Of course this is not a defeator for the "gods ways are not our ways" and "god has a plan" apologetics. It simply seems to me to be more probable that the Bible is a human written book, not inspired with an objective truth, being interpreted by diverse elements of humanity with different beliefs and experience, all in the absence of a god to set them straight. In other words on the hypothesis that God does not exist, the confusion surrounding the bible is expected, whereas on the hypothesis that God does exist and wants his creatures to belive true things, it seems less probable (although not imossible).

Thank you so much to everyone who participated and put time and effort into making this an awesome conversation.
I also recognize that this post will likely engender some response so if the believers among you feel like the above demands a response, please feel free I am happy to allow you the last word on the matter, it is after all your forum!
Peace,
Athée

Deciding who has the last word on this matter will probably depend on whether or not it indeed takes the illumination of the Holy Spirit to help a person truly understand those specific verses that say, "...it takes the illumination of the Holy Spirit."

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Remember, my main response...you did not list...was disorder and disagreement are largely due to different levels of maturity in the faith. We have those who are still worldly (lacking the Spirit) and therefore still infants in Christ and those living and growing on solid food which is for the mature, the spiritual.

 

[OzSpen]

So do you believe then that all these people who call themselves Christians but don't agree with you on every point are not actually real Christians with access to the Holy Spirit?

That's a red herring. You didn't deal with the issues I raised.

 

[OzSpen]

People of sound mind with intellectual integrity who identify as Christian, who would report having a personal relationship with Jesus and yet disagree with each other about what they think the Bible teaches on any number of topics, including the ones you mentioned.

What makes them Christian? How did they become Christian?

 

[com7fy8]

So you belive that God can teach you something that you can know for certain to be true. If that is the case and God if God wants us to know true things about him and the world he made, why does he continue to allow such division and confusion and even enmity among his children?

Yes, He can have us know what He wants us to trust; but there is much more He does with us who are His children. And, by the way, there are things we can not understand unless we first grow and mature in how He has us sharing with Him and relating with whoever really are His children. Our Father does not allow us who are His children to continue to fight and argue and be envious. But God corrects us, as Hebrews 12:4-11 clearly says.

But there are people who make a big show of being by the Bible and then they fight and argue only or mainly about outward conformity of ideas and practices. This could be a trick of Satan's kingdom, to decoy our attention to only evaluating what people outwardly say and do, and they can dictate how we are supposed to parrot and copy-cat what they demand.

It is possible that God allows such people to continue to fail, so the really Christian people can see how those people are not approved by God > 1 Corinthians 11:18-19.

And you have seen what can happen when people judge each other only or mainly by their show. They can even ordain predators and con artists to be their pastors!

What is first needed, then, is how God cures our nature in His love >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And . . . with this effect of God's grace in us, we grow to know, by actual experience, all which God's word really means.

 

[com7fy8]

I wonder how we can determine what are the core issues. What distinguishes these from peripheral issues?

I personally now understand that the main issues have to do with showing how God is personal and the Supreme Being of family caring and sharing love, including how He is three family love Persons, and They desire to share their very own with us as Their adopted children. And in order to get started in this, each one needs to trust in Jesus for salvation (Ephesians 1:12), then actively seek God for His personal correction > Hebrews 12:4-11 < which brings His love's perfection > 1 John 4:17. And in this love and maturing in this love we discover how to become and relate with one another > Ephesians 4:2, with Ephesians 4:31-5:2. And this all is while we develop in submitting to how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in His own peace which He shares with us > Colossians 3:15, Matthew 11:28-30.

This, I find, is the basic for all that God's word means He desires to do with us.

If someone's variations fit with this and help the person with this, I would say this is ok.

But there are people who more or less obviously move and stay away from God being so personal with His children and having us become more and more intimately sharing as His family. They can get tangled and mangled in their intellectual arguing, and fighting over outward religious practices . . . instead of getting more personal with God and discovering how to personally relate and care tenderly for even those who are incapable of tender and caring sharing.

But what about the charmers? Ones can act so loving, then turn out to be predators and abusers and con artists, later. Well, we need to not evaluate only by someone's say-so and the act they can put on. And this takes God, to make us reliable.

And part of how to not be fooled by fake lovers is to become real, ourselves. If we have pride and greed, they can play to our faults. If we are willing to only use and take advantage of other people, then it is easier for us to get tricked > someone can get us to suppose we can use that person, then turn things around to take advantage of us! So, getting real, ourselves, can help us a lot

So, what we really need to do, Athée, is not be only or mainly concerned about what are the really right ideas, but how we need to become in real love. And there is plenty in the Bible, about this, and how God alone is able to have us become His way, by means of how His almighty grace effects our nature.

 

[ljglazner]

Note:
I am re-posting this discussion after the former was closed. I have been informed that I did not transgress the rules so I am hoping this one will be allowed to continue. The following is the OP from that first thread.

Hi all,

I am an atheist, married to a wonderful Christian woman. In hopes of coming to belive what she believes I have started attending a bible study group with some cool guys from our church.

One question that keeps coming up in our discussions is this notion of the indwelling of the spirit as it pertains to interpreting the Bible.
I have often heard that when a believer reads the bible the truth of it will be revealed to them by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case why do so many Christians disagree about interpreting scripture?
The most common response in our group was that people supress/make errors even though the holy Spirit is teaching them the truth . If this were the case wouldn't we expect broad agreement on any particular issue as the supression and error would be idiosyncratic to any particular believer but the consensus would remain (same principle as poll the audience in Who Wants to be a Millionaire , all the people who know the right answer pick the same one, everyone who doesn't spreads their votes out over the possible choices leaving the truth clearly indicated.
In our group this ended with the guys just saying they don't really have a good answer for this problem, which while intellectually honest is not super helpful
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Note: This is not supposed to be a debate thread so as you respond I will try to simply ask questions to clarify rather than offer rebuttals. As such if you can think of a counter argument to your own position please include it and also include why you don't find that counter argument compelling

Thanks for your time and intellectual effort.

Peace

A very good question. I appreciate your effort to learn. I have seen this as a stumbling block to some, that Christians disagree on so many things, yet all claim to have heard from the same Spirit that they are right.
The first reason that people think about a scripture differently is that sometimes the spirit speaks to a specific problem they are having, and they grab that scripture and apply it to their life and think that is the ONLY possible meaning for the scripture, but scripture is actually, "Living and powerful and sharper than a two edged sword, dividing the soul from the spirit." It can have a slightly different "meaning" to one person and another, or even one person when they are at one stage in their growth and another later on. The problem is that people grab onto their impression and their application and think that it is what God intended to say to everyone.
The second reason there is so much disagreement is that most people have a strong filter for their take on scripture, coming from the church organization they were trained in. This is not just a problem in the church but with everyone. We can see American values and priorities, but we cannot understand why people in the Middle East don't see things the way we do. We all have the same information, more or less, but we all come from different places and it is hard and sometimes seems impossible for some people to ever see things differently than they were first taught to see them. It is a flaw we all must guard against; the prejudice and blindness that comes from our preference - what we want to believe. God made the human mind so that it follows the human desires; we see what we want to see and can hardly accept data that doesn't fit our preference.
Another reason people think differently is that some things God says are not popular. More than once I have seen people go to great lengths to explain that the Bible doesn't mean what it plainly says. This is because we do not want it to be true, so we twist things and ignore things and dance all around trying to believe what we want and still think of ourselves as believing the Bible.
Lastly some thing sin the Bible are called (by the Bible) MEAT. Some are not "ready for meat" it says. Meat must be chewed on and digested before it can be utilized. If you give meat to a young Christian (and many never do grow up in their faith, but stay babies) or a non-christian, they will choke on it. It requires maturity to understand how complex issues all fit together. Think of a grad class in biology or physics. You cannot sit a fourth grader in there and expect them to understand the great complexities of the issues involved. In the religious arena those babies often take a few words they think they understood from their grad-class and build a little concept around pieces of the whole picture.
That has been my observation. The trick is to make sure that I myself do not hold to any position that is from my preference, or from the first thing I have been taught an unsubstantiated upon further study. That, to me, is challenge enough. If anyone with a different opinion is willing to speak with me, I try to learn all I can about their ideas and look carefully at their evidence. This is true whether they are atheists trying to convince me of evolution or another Christian trying to convince me of when the rapture happens.
Let me add that, if you are really open to truth, you will find that Jesus is the truth. If you truly seek, you will find. If you truly ask, you will be answered.

 

[ljglazner]

Let me add that many people call themselves Christians who do not actually have God's Spirit. They may SAY they do and that God guides them, for the easiest thing in the world to convert is people's vocabulary, but in reality they are making it all up. Of those who actually know God, the more mature they get in the faith the more likely they are to agree with those who are also mature in the faith, even those from another tradition or denomination. Talking with a mature Christian from a denomination that teaches some false things, I have asked them how they defend that teaching. They say (and I think maybe four or five times this has happened) that this particular doctrine they have come to see that it isn't IMPORTANT. Interesting, huh? They haven't denied it or seen what is true, but their maturity caused them to stop teaching it or emphasizing it. You see most denominations emphasize that which they are WRONG about, because they find that they are the ONLY "champions" of that particular doctrine. They are the only ones because that particular doctrine is FALSE, but they can't see that. I call it people's "ridiculousness", and it is not just in religion you see it, but all over the world. Everyone seems to have some. I assume I do too, though I do not know what it is, of course, or I would renounce it.

 

[Resha Caner]

It seems odd to me that God would allow the single most important message ever delivered to humanity to be so misunderstood and misrepresented.

It's too bad you left with this still your position. What other aspect do we have to understand perfectly in order to get on with our lives?

 

[Athée]

It's too bad you left with this still your position. What other aspect do we have to understand perfectly in order to get on with our lives?

That's a good point, I don't belive that the a person would have to have perfect knowledge of this message for it to take effect. Doesn't it seem odd to you that the god of the universe has a very specific message about who he is, what he wants and why we should want it too, but then communicates it in such a way that most of the world doesn't believe it to even be a message from a god?

 

[Resha Caner]

That's a good point, I don't belive that the a person would have to have perfect knowledge of this message for it to take effect. Doesn't it seem odd to you that the god of the universe has a very specific message about who he is, what he wants and why we should want it too, but then communicates it in such a way that most of the world doesn't believe it to even be a message from a god?

Not really ... for several reasons. First because signal processing is part of my job, so I know what it's like to deal with noisy data. There is something called Shannon's Law that allows you to calculate how much noise can be tolerated and still transmit a signal. If people can determine such a thing, I'm sure God can as well. So, for me it's not that noise exists, but how willing people are to persist. If they persist, I believe the message will get through (James 1:12).

I almost hate to say the first part, though. It might seem like a thumb in the eye to unbelievers. If so, I apologize. I mean it as encouragement, and I'm always looking for a better way to say it.

Building on that first notion though, the second thing I would say is that it seems to me people want to know things they don't need to know. I don't think my understanding is perfect, so I don't know how God will judge people. I testify to the truth as best I can, but when I get to heaven I expect to learn I was wrong about some things. That means I expect to find God has accepted people I disagreed with in this life. We don't all need to agree. When that becomes the primary goal, we are missing the more important goal.

So, I don't see disagreement as a sign the message isn't getting through. At the same time, I see no reason to change my position because people say I should. I have changed my position on some things over time, but only because I became convinced God spoke of something different.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It seems like the majority opinion is that the Holy Spirit does indeed lead true believers into all truth but that this process is frustrated by various human deficiencies.

It's always a good reminder that any given thread or board on CF, or even CF itself isn't exactly a good indicator of what most Christians believe or how they think.

Keep in mind that there are approximately 2.3 billion Christians living on the planet, about half of those are Roman Catholics, and another ~300-400 million are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, then with Anglicans, Lutherans, and a few other traditional, mainline Protestants making up another about 200+ million. All of these churches would understand that the promise of the Holy Spirit to "lead to all truth" isn't an individual promise to individual Christians, but was something spoken specifically to the Apostles, and therefore do not look to themselves as individuals as having "the truth" but look to the historic teaching of the Apostles, as confessed and received down through the centuries by the historic Christian Church, as true Christian teaching. Thus we look not to our own ability to have true teaching deposited directly into us by some unmediated mystical connection with the Holy Spirit; but instead believe in the Holy Spirit's enduring presence in the Church to hold us together in true faith through the teaching and confession which has existed from the beginning and which we believe and confess in the historic Creeds and teachings of the Church catholic and apostolic. It is not about "me and the Holy Spirit" but "we and the Holy Spirit".

I think this is important to emphasize because it can be easy to mistake a louder minority as being a majority. I have regularly encountered many people over the years I've been discussing religious issues online who claim that they don't "interpret the Bible" but that the Holy Spirit directly gives them immediate access to the truth and so they know they're right because they're right. And the one thing such people all have in common is that they disagree with one another on just about everything. On the other hand I have noticed that for all the differences which indeed do exist between Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and Protestants, those who adhere to the historic teachings of the Christian faith as taught and confessed in the Creeds tend to share far more in common because they are looking to a common history of faith. I'm not saying this means we're right, but it does mean that because we are using a common frame of reference we're largely speaking the same language, religiously speaking.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Resha Caner]

All of these churches would understand that the promise of the Holy Spirit to "lead to all truth" isn't an individual promise to individual Christians, but was something spoken specifically to the Apostles, and therefore do not look to themselves as individuals as having "the truth" but look to the historic teaching of the Apostles, as confessed and received down through the centuries by the historic Christian Church, as true Christian teaching. Thus we look not to our own ability to have true teaching deposited directly into us by some unmediated mystical connection with the Holy Spirit; but instead believe in the Holy Spirit's enduring presence in the Church to hold us together in true faith through the teaching and confession which has existed from the beginning and which we believe and confess in the historic Creeds and teachings of the Church catholic and apostolic. It is not about "me and the Holy Spirit" but "we and the Holy Spirit".

An important point, and well said.

 

[Athée]

Not really ... for several reasons. First because signal processing is part of my job, so I know what it's like to deal with noisy data. There is something called Shannon's Law that allows you to calculate how much noise can be tolerated and still transmit a signal. If people can determine such a thing, I'm sure God can as well. So, for me it's not that noise exists, but how willing people are to persist. If they persist, I believe the message will get through (James 1:12).

I almost hate to say the first part, though. It might seem like a thumb in the eye to unbelievers. If so, I apologize. I mean it as encouragement, and I'm always looking for a better way to say it.

Building on that first notion though, the second thing I would say is that it seems to me people want to know things they don't need to know. I don't think my understanding is perfect, so I don't know how God will judge people. I testify to the truth as best I can, but when I get to heaven I expect to learn I was wrong about some things. That means I expect to find God has accepted people I disagreed with in this life. We don't all need to agree. When that becomes the primary goal, we are missing the more important goal.

So, I don't see disagreement as a sign the message isn't getting through. At the same time, I see no reason to change my position because people say I should. I have changed my position on some things over time, but only because I became convinced God spoke of something different.

That is an interesting take. In my line of work we deal with signal to noise ratio on a daily basis although we often focus on the inverse square law for a degrading signal as well, so I loved the analogy. The problem for me is not that there is noise, but rather that the signal seems indistinguishable from the noise.

 

[Athée]

It's always a good reminder that any given thread or board on CF, or even CF itself isn't exactly a good indicator of what most Christians believe or how they think.

Keep in mind that there are approximately 2.3 billion Christians living on the planet, about half of those are Roman Catholics, and another ~300-400 million are Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, then with Anglicans, Lutherans, and a few other traditional, mainline Protestants making up another about 200+ million. All of these churches would understand that the promise of the Holy Spirit to "lead to all truth" isn't an individual promise to individual Christians, but was something spoken specifically to the Apostles, and therefore do not look to themselves as individuals as having "the truth" but look to the historic teaching of the Apostles, as confessed and received down through the centuries by the historic Christian Church, as true Christian teaching. Thus we look not to our own ability to have true teaching deposited directly into us by some unmediated mystical connection with the Holy Spirit; but instead believe in the Holy Spirit's enduring presence in the Church to hold us together in true faith through the teaching and confession which has existed from the beginning and which we believe and confess in the historic Creeds and teachings of the Church catholic and apostolic. It is not about "me and the Holy Spirit" but "we and the Holy Spirit".

I think this is important to emphasize because it can be easy to mistake a louder minority as being a majority. I have regularly encountered many people over the years I've been discussing religious issues online who claim that they don't "interpret the Bible" but that the Holy Spirit directly gives them immediate access to the truth and so they know they're right because they're right. And the one thing such people all have in common is that they disagree with one another on just about everything. On the other hand I have noticed that for all the differences which indeed do exist between Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, and Protestants, those who adhere to the historic teachings of the Christian faith as taught and confessed in the Creeds tend to share far more in common because they are looking to a common history of faith. I'm not saying this means we're right, but it does mean that because we are using a common frame of reference we're largely speaking the same language, religiously speaking.

-CryptoLutheran

Well said, tradition doesn't mean truth but it does indeed form a frame of reference.

 

[Serving Zion]

Well everyone that you so much for your thoughts. It seems to me that we are drawing to a close on this thread so I thought I would try to sumarize things as I understood them so far. It seems like the majority opinion is that the Holy Spirit does indeed lead true believers into all truth but that this process is frustrated by various human deficiencies. Holders of this view seem to believe that either the holy Spirit is incapable of overcoming these deficiencies (minority) or has reasons unknown (although some have speculated) for allowing the confusion to persist. Others respond that many bible passages cry out for a true unity among the body and that God is no the author of confusion and so insist that it is indeed the fault of sinful men.
A minority among you take the position that we have misunderstood the bible on this subject and that the holy Spirit is not a truth dispenser but does play some role in guiding a believer.
I confess that for myself I remain puzzled by all of this. It seems odd to me that God would allow the single most important message ever delivered to humanity to be so misunderstood and misrepresented. Of course this is not a defeator for the "gods ways are not our ways" and "god has a plan" apologetics. It simply seems to me to be more probable that the Bible is a human written book, not inspired with an objective truth, being interpreted by diverse elements of humanity with different beliefs and experience, all in the absence of a god to set them straight. In other words on the hypothesis that God does not exist, the confusion surrounding the bible is expected, whereas on the hypothesis that God does exist and wants his creatures to belive true things, it seems less probable (although not imossible).

Thank you so much to everyone who participated and put time and effort into making this an awesome conversation.
I also recognize that this post will likely engender some response so if the believers among you feel like the above demands a response, please feel free I am happy to allow you the last word on the matter, it is after all your forum!
Peace,
Athée

Hi there, I notice this thread is too much for me to read back on, so I offer a response only to this post, for you

If you can picture the overall story of man vs God since the fall, and God's objective being to establish a kingdom of rulership on earth that has overcome sin so that earth prospers as the paradise He desires, we see a constant failure of mankind to submit to Him.

First, Eve wanted to own God's responsibility and power, to make decisions over His authority. The tower of Babel was to establish an illusion of representing God to the people. Jesus was publicly assassinated to covet God's kingdom, then the false teachers came among Christianity and perverted it's true message for their own selfish gain. Now we have a result of 2,000 years of apostate teaching, divisions, heresies, and unbridled, untaught lay persons speaking on matters presumptuously, almost always without prayer first, and often too, compromising the will of God to make their ministry more attractive for their target.

What God really needs is disciples of the truth, who are willing to question every belief they have, willing to rebuke and oppose those who are wrong in His name even if it is an intimidating assignment. This is essentially to lay down one's own life and take up his cross, to go where God leads him and obey His instruction. This is what baptism represents - death and burial of our own life, new life in and for Christ. But this is nowadays said as rhetoric, and everyone's speaking for their own purposes - they want a notch on their belt for every convert instead of healing a person's soul, they seek esteem, even applause, for speaking with eloquence. They want safety in numbers, to be comforted instead of corrected, to force a concession instead of finding agreement. This is why The Holy Spirit is not represented by the majority of voices - they really do not want to repent, they don't practise love thy neighbour, they take God's name for a vain purpose, and they don't even know what they are doing! (1 Timothy 1:5-7).

.. Seems like enough said

Here's some scriptures I am sure you will enjoy!

Philippians 2:19-21
2 Peter 2:1-3
Matthew 21:33-46
Jeremiah 23
Matthew 6:22-23
2 Thessalonians 2
Luke 19:12-15 (esp vs 14)
Romans 6:16
Revelation 2:26-29
Matthew 5:19
Matthew 25:12
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Matthew 7:21

Also, I recommend to you, to reinforce your understanding of the gospel: www.adonai-reigns.life/the-gospel

 

[Resha Caner]

The problem for me is not that there is noise, but rather that the signal seems indistinguishable from the noise.

I'm curious, then. What do you think is the primary message of the Gospel?

 

[TurtleAnne]

My personal perception of most disagreements in regards to interpretation, is that different humans have different struggles/challenges, and also that God has different plans for different humans, and that the Holy Spirit will help or allow a human to see and perceive what they need to see and perceive, for whatever reason(s) often known only to God anyway.

I mean sure, there are going to be some people who deliberately try to spread disinformation by taking things out of context or otherwise being dishonest in how they present something, and then sure, people are at different stages of understanding different things. There have been some parts of the scripture that just struck me to the core the first time I read/heard them and it blew me away how vivid the sudden clarity was in regards to how it applied to my life and so on, while there are parts of the Bible that I have never read yet and if someone started discussing them without name-dropping the book and verse number, then I'd probably be totally lost and going, "Huh?" inside my mind. And everything in between.

But with most things, I think each relationship between human and God might be a little bit unique, maybe just a tiny bit or more so than the norm. The common ground that stands out to me is a desire to understand and a desire for the Holy Spirit's influence and to serve God. The finer details of how the Holy Spirit works in and with someone, leads someone, and so on, are not my business but theirs. That is why I'll seldom debate such topics, but just say my piece and let it be. Strong exception being if I feel very compelled to try to encourage someone towards salvation in general, but disputers over semantics and so on? Eh. Even if I see things very differently from someone else, for all I know the Holy Spirit is moving them in that direction for a reason, and who am I to try to persuade them in another direction. Likewise if I feel strongly that the Holy Spirit is pushing me in a particular direction, then I'm going in that direction, no ifs-ands-or-buts for me.

Like as a common example, I personally feel that confessing to a priest rather than confessing directly to God is misguided, and likewise I don't see doing hand gestures and numbly reciting words to be actual prayer (for me, personally). But for all I know, for someone else, with the way their brain organ works, they really are getting some sort of connection to the Holy Spirit or God when they go through those motions. Maybe for some reasons that are none of my business and that I can't understand, it works differently for that person and God knows it, since God knows everything, and in His wisdom God had the Holy Spirit guide that person towards Catholicism because it was ultimately going to help them connect on a deeper, spiritual level in the end. Who knows? Only God, certainly not me.

So in that regard, "disagreeing" is not a huge deal to me. And as far as wondering along the lines of, "Why would God let the scriptures be obscure enough in some cases so that so many people wind up arguing?" ... Well to me that actually seems strategic. When you analyze information, there is no feeling, there is nothing spiritual, automatically. When I look at a plant and identify its name and properties, I am not feeling that plant on a deep level. When something is just obscure enough that you have to actually reach out for the Holy Spirit and try to feel your way through something, spiritually, well.. great, heh heh. That's the whole idea, isn't it.