Why do Christians disagree? Part 2

com7fy8 · Dec 12, 2016

com7fy8 said:
Well, I do not think I meant to say that length of time determines how well someone gets one's ideas straight. Maturing does take time, though, but we need quality of the quantity

There have been religious people in history who have been into much quantity without the quality. I think an individual who is maturing in Jesus will mature in Christ's light and creativity in one's own lifetime. But you might not see much public show of the person.

Athée said:
Those are really interesting ideas but I wonder how we would know if they are actually the case. What do you think?

I have offered my impression of the reliability of large-scale institutionalized religious leadership, but this is not what I concentrate on. I understand and experience how God proves Himself personally, and I know various people who say God has been proving Himself to them, while we help one another with this, since our Father is about family and sharing caring, including personal correction.

Leaders of the past and denominational leaders whom I don't know personally can not prove themselves to me. I am not even guessing, if I am trusting them and don't even know them. Of course, God is able to personally communicate with me about who to trust and how. We can make sure with God.

Jesus does say, "My sheep hear My voice" (John chapter ten). Jesus is able to get through to us and prove Himself to each of us, personally. And He is able to have us know who to trust and how. So, with leaders I do not know, I stay open for however God pleases to guide me in relation to different people.

So, yes we need to trust God and get with Him and how He will make us clear about things.

But this is not only about God telling me things, and that's it. His light can show us what words can not tell or prove.

It is like how if I send you a photograph of nature: no amount of words can tell you what it will look like.

For example, I will tell you a photo has some insects in it, flying around; without light to see that actual picture, how much have I told you; plus, how many more words could have you

visualizing t-h-i-s >

Now, I could use some words to share the message I can get through this picture >

These flying insects are dancing freely . . . they are sharing with each other . . . like how we can be loving freely above the weeds of this world

So, from this photo, I can get words for how to love, to stay in the fresh air above, of love, and not be hiding in or living in this world's weedy ways; scripture, of course, can help us to understand all that this means >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 4:31-32)

So, this photo can be used to get a lesson on how to love . . . not only being interested in how nice the photo looks. Likewise, we need to not be all busy only with how our ideas look.

And like I offer, we need God to be the light for how we see and understand and live His message >

"God is light" (in 1 John 1:5).

This is why, I consider, Jesus did not stay here. Seeing Him was not enough. The disciples saw Jesus for a while, yet they did not get all He really meant. They needed how God in us effects our nature and how we see things . . . not only what we believe.

Monk Brendan · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
If we can't trust ourselves to be interpreting scripture correctly and if we can misunderstand the teaching of the holy Spirit, how can we trust the conclusions of any testing we do?

Take a look at the Christian sects that have been around the longest. Catholic (all 23 flavors), Orthodox, Maronite, all of the Oriental Orthodox, some of whom have been around so long that they can trace their beliefs back to a single apostle. These are the people that you can trust to do it right, because most of them have been teaching the faithful how to listen to God, and how to best interpret His Word for almost 2000 years

I'm going to go out on a limb, and recommend a Bible for you to read. It is the Orthodox Study Bible. You can find it online and in some stores. The NT is strictly the New King James version, and the OT has been scrupulously translated from the Septuagint that I told you about earlier. Now, the way that the various books are presented in the OSB is different from any other Bible you may have looked at, it is still the full Bible. Remember, God loves you.

victorinus · Dec 12, 2016

com7fy8 said:
Jesus is able to get through to us and prove Himself to each of us, personally.

do you test the spirits?

victorinus · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
Also was that a "no" on the presuppositional approach?

I had to look up - presuppositional
-and-
I cannot say no to it
-but-
I do not ignore any worldviews

victorinus · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
If we can't trust ourselves to be interpreting scripture correctly and if we can misunderstand the teaching of the holy Spirit, how can we trust the conclusions of any testing we do?

you can't
-so-
you keep on testing
-
your working assumption can be modified at anytime based on the results of your latest test

com7fy8 · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
So god might know if you are correct or not but how would we here in earth know as well? You mentioned testing all things. How would you go about testing the bible, or the reality of Jesus or something else foundational to your belief system?

I personally test by praying for God to have me know what He wants us to know.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

In me, He can have me knowing what He wants us to know. But this means, included, how I do need more correction . . . so certain things get shown to be wrong, but also so I see things the right way. I need to not get self-righteous about what I know, in case I really have God giving me what is true.

With Him producing what He has me knowing, also He is producing the caring and kind character and humility needed . . . if it is really God.

We see how the disciples were right there with Jesus, but they could fight among themselves about who was the greatest. So, they knew who Jesus is, but how they saw this was a problem!

So, I need to be prayerful so I will know what is right and know it in the right way.

Like I offer > God proves Himself to us. He knows if it is He or not. Maybe it is like how you yourself might not be able to prove that your parents really are your mom and dad; but they know, and they are able to communicate with you and prove themselves.

Plus . . . your wife can prove herself to you, and you don't need to go only by her say-so or you wishing it so.

Paul of Eugene OR · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
Are you saying that the reason we can't come to agreement about these things is because the truth of our various interpretations can only be demonstrated by knowledge from beyond the grave? What role does the holy Spirit or the bible play in your view, as far as being a way to justify belief in a certain interpretation of scripture?

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The problem with Holy Spirit revelations is that alternate people claim to receive alternate, contradictory interpretations.

com7fy8 · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
So the truths of God are subjective and different for each person?

I believe there are the main basic things which need to be the same for everyone.

Even so, God is creative with each of us. So, there are things which can be different.

For only one example > if God has one person for marriage, this person's discovering about love might have more to do with relating with humans. While someone for celibacy might start off with more learning of how to relate personally with God. But what each is learning will not directly contradict the other. And as they grow in love, they both will have more about both relating with God and sharing with people; plus, the celibate can help the married person get more into sharing with God and submitting to Him, while the married one might help the celibate to develop more in relating with people.

So, there are divisive differences which are not of God, but there are differences of puzzle pieces which can fit together perfectly, Athée. But divisive and self-favoring people can take puzzle-pieces to be contradictory to each other. Their divisive nature can have them seeing division where it does not have to be. Our character has a lot to do with how we see things.

So . . . in the case of testing > yes, we already have talked about 1 Thessalonians 5:21, here in our discussion >

"Test all things; hold fast what is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

We test not only for what is the truth, but how to see the thing we are testing; and we test for the good which we can use it to produce, with God. So, we are not testing only ideas, but situations and relationships. Then make God's all-loving use of it. So, we are not only testing for what is right or what is wrong, but for the good which anything can be used for.

One special example is how Joseph used his horrible situation for God's all-loving result > Genesis 37-50. He did this with God, of course.

ChristianFromKazakhstan · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
Questioning long held beliefs can be an uncomfortable thing, well done for being open to ask questions of tour own beliefs.
When you are praying sincerely to God for guidance how do you distinguish between your own insights and his revelation to you?

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I really don't know. Hard to distinguish. No clear cut difference. All a matter of personal perspective or perception, I think. Some people interpret everything as coming from God - any own thought you have can be "whispered" to you by God etc.

I don't know. For now I just pray and believe I will come to an understanding myself, through my own thought process. Not that He will speak to me "in a thunder" in a distinctive way. I don't expect and don't look for such experience. Not that I reject such possibility altogether. Open to all possibilities now. Open mind. It was pretty closed for too ling. Bad! There was also this huge fear or doing/thinking the wrong thing, or appearing before my insecure and ever judging Christian circle a heretic/sinner/devil's accomplice for any indépendant, free thinking... Now the fear is mostly gone, but not yet completely. Hard to change your personality overnight... Atheist from birth to late teens, then Christian all of the adult life and the greater half of life... Not easy. Not easy.

I also believe in possibility of an indirect "hand of God" working and directing me. Like, receiving certain "signs". A striking coincidence, a strong obsticle when trying to do smth, an unusial event, etc.... Well, all of that is so relative and so subject to interpretation... Super subjective..... So, I don't want to rush to interpret anything definitively as "God"... Only if I'm very sure in it. Kind of when you have this internal assurance it's supernatural..... But I don't know. It could be 100% psychology in some cases...

I know that human imagination is so powerful, but I do believe in the reality of God wholeheartedly.

Sounds like utmost confusion? I think it is. But what could I do... I wish things were simpler or clearer. But they are what they are. Like a fog...

com7fy8 · Dec 12, 2016

victorinus said:
do you test the spirits?

I do not practice a ministry of discerning what spirit is acting through another person. And I do not experience seeing angels and demons.

But I believe in testing the spirits, for personally making sure I am submitting to God, in me. And I am not perfect; so yes I get in messes in myself. But I go with Colossians 3:15 >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, I test mainly to see if I am thinking and feeling and reacting and doing and saying things in His peace. So, testing needs to be constant, I understand, with submitting to however at each moment our Father desires to rule us in His peace.

So, no I have not gotten into something like isolated tests of other people and what spirit they are of, but mainly I test who is in me producing what's happening in me. I understand that as we grow in God's love, we grow in "knowledge and all discernment" > in Philippians 1:9. And our Apostle Paul has prayed this for us, I consider. So, we are not only depending on ourselves, but know our Father is taking care of us.

Athée · Dec 12, 2016

victorinus said:
my definition of faith is the same one you will find in the dictionary
-
on the presuppositional approach? - huh?

Faith has many layers of definition in the dictionaries I have seen. How do you mean the word when you use it?
Presupposition approach if you don't know it all the better

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Athée · Dec 12, 2016

victorinus said:
no but I am saying it is a christian thing to do
-and-
it would satisfy at least one important test

OK so we can rule those out as ways to distinguish , what else would you suggest?

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Athée · Dec 12, 2016

victorinus said:
I am saying it is a very good test
-but-
not sufficient

So it is a very good test, meaning that old ideas are more likely to be true than newer ones?

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victorinus · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
Faith has many layers of definition in the dictionaries I have seen. How do you mean the word when you use it?

I avoid definition arguments

victorinus · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
OK so we can rule those out as ways to distinguish ,

you can but I don't
-
each test is valid but not sufficient

victorinus · Dec 12, 2016

Athée said:
So it is a very good test, meaning that old ideas are more likely to be true than newer ones?

I don't agree with your meaning

Fred Manalo · Dec 12, 2016

ChristianFromKazakhstan said:
I really don't know. Hard to distinguish. No clear cut difference. All a matter of personal perspective or perception, I think. Some people interpret everything as coming from God - any own thought you have can be "whispered" to you by God etc.

I don't know. For now I just pray and believe I will come to an understanding myself, through my own thought process. Not that He will speak to me "in a thunder" in a distinctive way. I don't expect and don't look for such experience. Not that I reject such possibility altogether. Open to all possibilities now. Open mind. It was pretty closed for too ling. Bad! There was also this huge fear or doing/thinking the wrong thing, or appearing a heretic/sinner/devil's accomplice in any indépendant, free thinking... Now the fear mostly gone, but not yet completely. Hard to change your personality overnight... Atheist from birth to late teens, then Christian all of the adult life and the greater half of life... Not easy. Not easy.

I also believe in possibility of an indirect "hand of God" working and directing me. Like, receiving certain "signs". A striking coincidence, a strong obsticle when trying to do smth, an unusial event, etc.... Well, all of that is so relative and so subject to interpretation... Super subjective..... So, I don't want to rush to interpret anything definitively as "God"... Only if I'm very sure in it. Kind of when you have this internal assurance it's supernatural..... But I don't know. It could be 100% psychology in some cases...

I know that human imagination is so powerful, but I do believe in the reality of God wholeheartedly.

Sounds like utmost confusion? I think it is. But what could I do... I wish things were simpler or clearer. But they are what they are. Like a fog...

Shalom, Peace be with you all.

About testing long-held beliefs, God has given us all a way to do so. The reason for all the divisions in Christianity is our all being blind spiritually, no prophet as there were in Bible times. Back then, God spoke through them, gathering and guiding his people Israel.

But we have the Light, the Word, the teaching of Jesus Christ to help us distinguish between what is right and what is wrong in our beliefs and in the doctrines of our individual churches. Because Jesus declared:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48 KJV

I grew up in one of the hundreds of divisions of Christianity, but when I saw the light of Jesus' Words I realized how far my church and all the Christian churches are from the truth. By our believing in human interpretations instead of what Jesus clearly spoke, we have all been led astray, away from the Light.

I am just saying, our long-held beliefs should be tested by the Words of Jesus Christ. But it is so much easier said than done.

Fred Manalo · Dec 12, 2016

Shalom, Peace be with you all.

About testing long-held beliefs, God has given us all a way to do so. The reason for all the divisions in Christianity is our all being blind spiritually, no prophet as there were in Bible times. Back then, God spoke through them, gathering and guiding his people Israel.

But we have the Light, the Word, the teaching of Jesus Christ to help us distinguish between what is right and what is wrong in our beliefs and in the doctrines of our individual churches. Because Jesus declared:

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48 KJV

I grew up in one of the hundreds of divisions of Christianity, but when I saw the light of Jesus' Words I realized how far my church and all the Christian churches are from the truth. By our believing in human interpretations instead of what Jesus clearly spoke, we have all been led astray, away from the Light.

I am just saying, our long-held beliefs should be tested by the Words of Jesus Christ. But it is so much easier said than done.

Athée · Dec 12, 2016

com7fy8 said:
The process of salvation is not a trivial subject; so yes to this. However, Athée, I consider that if ones in a discussion are all reasonable, then they can come to an agreement; so . . . no to people being reasonable and being able to keep on and on in a major division and disagreement.

And, by the way, if you have not gotten to personally know a religious leader, how can you be so sure the person is reasonable? Just because one has an education and tones one's voice to sound reasonable and talks intellectually, this does not mean the person is Christian.

I will offer what you can decide is reasonable or not > one first needs to trust in Jesus for salvation > Ephesians 1:12. I think we do well to consider what is involved in trusting someone. There is personal communication and involvement and relating, not only distant theoretical ideas about the one you trust, and you are not only copy-catting what others tell you to do for the person you trust; because you personally know the person who can guide you. So, if ones emphasize and argue about ideas and theories and essentially copy-catting them, this is not reasonable.

Jesus says,

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

He says, "learn from Me" > to me, this means to personally learn from Jesus Himself, however this is and works. So, getting right into non-personal issues of ideas and practices could be considered not reasonable, couldn't it?

Ones can get very busy with labeling those who don't agree with them. This is not reasonable.

But the ones who are reasonable will probably not get tangled and mangled in endless arguing and calling each other names. But they will be first about staying gentle and humble and patient (2 Timothy 2:23-25), as ones whose objective is to adopt mistaken and wrong people to become our adopted brothers and sisters in Jesus . . . not only to prove them wrong.

Plus, their first emphasis will not be the ideas, even if they are not trivial; but first we need, ourselves, to seek our Father for correction deeper than our ideas. Because our character can effect what we are able to believe; or, like I think I offered here, already, even if our ideas are technically correct, our character can effect how well we hold to and relate and live out our ideas.

Our Apostle Paul says, if we have all our knowledge correct but do not have love, we have gotten nowhere > 1 Corinthians 13

This is why I consider that reasonable people who do not agree might table the idea of disagreement . . . because the main priority of our attention needs to be to submitting to God and discovering how He has us become in His love and how we relate with love for any and all people, as ourselves.

Very thoughtful post, thanks for sharing

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Athée · Dec 12, 2016

Monk Brendan said:
God is NEVER the author of confusion. That comes from the devil. God loves you. Already, before you were born He loved you. And He will continue to love you, even if you reject Him totally and go to your grave hating Him for not existing. And He will continue to love your soul, even after you are dead and in hell.

If you believe a chair exists, and you want to sit down, all you need to do is trust that the chair exists, and sit down, right?

Just so, if you believe that God exists, all you need to do is trust Him. He will do the rest. He will draw you to humble yourself and pray. He will draw you into a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Stop over-analyzing. You are listening to all sorts of people, from all sorts of religious views. Stop listening to people, and start listening to God. He will speak to you, softly, it is true, and you have to be willing to listen. Shut out all the noise that comes in to your mind, and quietly listen.

Thank you very much for sharing your passion here. There are a few things I would push back on from that post but none that bear on the thread topic.
Thanks again

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