Why do Calvinists....

[cygnusx1]

As your question implies, yes, God has that ability.

Well now you are agreeing with the Calvinists , that all things come from the will of God.


So God permits some evil , some sins , some atrocities BUT NOT OTHERS , any idea why ?

 

[Boxmaker]

Well now you are agreeing with the Calvinists , that all things come from the will of God.

I was under the impression that God ORDAINED all things. For God to permit something implies that there is an alternative. If it has been ordained by God, there is no choice.

ordain
–verb (used with object) 1.to invest with ministerial or sacerdotal functions; confer holy orders upon. 2.to enact or establish by law, edict, etc.: to ordain a new type of government. 3.to decree; give orders for: He ordained that the restrictions were to be lifted. 4.(of God, fate, etc.) to destine or predestine: Fate had ordained the meeting. –verb (used without object) 5.to order or command: Thus do the gods ordain.

Permit
1.to allow to do something: Permit me to explain. 2.to allow to be done or occur: The law does not permit the sale of such drugs. 3.to tolerate; agree to: a law permitting Roman Catholicism in England. 4.to afford opportunity for, or admit of: vents to permit the escape of gases. –verb (used without object) 5.to grant permission; allow liberty to do something. 6.to afford opportunity or possibility: Write when time permits. 7.to allow or admit (usually fol. by of): statements that permit of no denial.

Looking at those definitions I would say I am not thinking like a Calvinist. I think God permits us to sin. Though He has the ability to stop us, He lets us. Similar to the Calvinist view of the reprobate soul. That is very different from saying God ordained that things would happen this way and only this way.

So God permits some evil , some sins , some atrocities BUT NOT OTHERS , any idea why ?

What has He not permited? If God prevents some evil from happening then how would we know that?

 

[UMP]

Looking at those definitions I would say I am not thinking like a Calvinist. I think God permits us to sin. Though He has the ability to stop us, He lets us. Similar to the Calvinist view of the reprobate soul. That is very different from saying God ordained that things would happen this way and only this way.

That which God allows, he has also purposed.
It can be no other way or else God would not be God.

"Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission for God only permits that which He has purposed."

A.W. Pink

 

[Boxmaker]

That which God allows, he has also purposed.
It can be no other way or else God would not be God.

I agree. And what God purposes will happen regardless of what men do. There is nothing in the scripture from which you quote (Isaiah 14:24) that implies God's purpose is predestined.

"Plainly it was God's will that sin should enter this world otherwise it would not have entered, for nothing happens save as God has eternally decreed. Moreover, there was more than a bare permission for God only permits that which He has purposed."

A.W. Pink

Was it? Sin entered the world through Adams sin. Sin is acting in oposition to God's will. Did God predestine (will) that Adam would sin? If so, it was not a sin because Adam was doing God's will!

If NOTHING happens but what God has decreed, then everything that happens is God's will. If everybody is acting in accordance with God's will, how can anybody sin?

 

[UMP]

I agree. And what God purposes will happen regardless of what men do. There is nothing in the scripture from which you quote (Isaiah 14:24) that implies God's purpose is predestined.

I don't now how much more predestied you can get than this:

Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Was it? Sin entered the world through Adams sin. Sin is acting in oposition to God's will. Did God predestine (will) that Adam would sin? If so, it was not a sin because Adam was doing God's will!

If NOTHING happens but what God has decreed, then everything that happens is God's will. If everybody is acting in accordance with God's will, how can anybody sin?

You REALLY need to read this book, this chapter in particular answers your exact question.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sov_08.htm


From appendix B which was written as a follow up to questions on the above chapter:

"Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledge of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam."
http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/appendix-b.htm

A.W. Pink

 

[Boxmaker]

I don't now how much more predestied you can get than this:

Isaiah 46:
[10] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:[11] Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.




You REALLY need to read this book, this chapter in particular answers your exact question.
http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sov_08.htm


From appendix B which was written as a follow up to questions on the above chapter:

"Here then is the difficulty: If God has eternally decreed that Adam should eat of the tree, how could he be held responsible not to eat of it? Formidable as the problem appears, nevertheless, it is capable of a solution, a solution, moreover, which can be grasped even by the finite mind. The solution is to be found in the distinction between God's secret will and his revealed will. As stated in Appendix A 1411, human responsibility is measured by our knowledge of God's revealed will; what God has told us, not what he has not told us, is the definer of our duty. So it was with Adam."
http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/appendix-b.htm

A.W. Pink

So God told Adam not to eat the fruit whilce secretly decreeing that Adam would eat the fruit so that God could lower the boom on the whole human race. You have got to be kidding me. God has a whole other secret will by which He judges us but He keeps it secret so He can say our sins are our fault.

And you think my beliefs are odd.

 

[bradfordl]

So God told Adam not to eat the fruit whilce secretly decreeing that Adam would eat the fruit so that God could lower the boom on the whole human race. You have got to be kidding me. God has a whole other secret will by which He judges us but He keeps it secret so He can say our sins are our fault.

And you think my beliefs are odd.

So God told Adam not to eat the fruit while not knowing he would, but being able to prevent that sin if He wanted, but didn't so He had to lower the boom on the whole human race even though He didn't want to, but could have prevented it if He wanted to, so He can say our sins are our fault.

Who's kidding who?

If He knew Adam would eat, but did not prevent it, then it was His will. If He did not know Adam would eat, He could not prevent it, so things are constantly taking Him by surprise. That is not only contrary to scripture, it is blasphemous, because then He would not be God.

 

[heymikey80]

So God told Adam not to eat the fruit whilce secretly decreeing that Adam would eat the fruit so that God could lower the boom on the whole human race. You have got to be kidding me.

Actually, you have got to be kidding you, Boxmaker!

Look closely at what you just did. You attributed a motive to God. Now in general Reformed believers don't try to attribute a motive to God unless He's told us His motives.

Yet you did.

Were you to take your motive out of the way and replace it with what God's saying, it would read something like this:

So God told Adam not to eat the fruit while secretly decreeing that Adam would eat the fruit so that God could accomplish some greater, good purpose.
​

Tell me how that's different from "permitting" evil -- for at this point it seems to me the permission you've declared on other threads serves no greater purpose.

 

[Boxmaker]

I was miss-quoted here so i corrected it

God told Adam not to eat the fruit while knowing Adam would disobey. Since obediance rising from love for God is more important that preventing a sin, God allowed Adam to sin. In so sinning, Adam's sinful nature was sealed and passed onto all future generations. Since sinful man is not allowed to live in Eden, God kicked Adam and Eve out to live with their new knowledge of good and evil. Since God had created man to love and be with Him, God set into motion His plan of redemption to redeem away from their sins and back to Him. Our sins are our own, passed down from Adam since the day He sinned.

If He knew Adam would eat, but did not prevent it, then it was His will.

But was it His will that sin enter the world or that Adam obey? I think it was His will that Adam obey and Adam did not.

If He did not know Adam would eat, He could not prevent it, so things are constantly taking Him by surprise. That is not only contrary to scripture, it is blasphemous, because then He would not be God.

And it is something I have NEVER said. I have said and will say again, God's foreknowledge is perfect. IT is perfect without Him having ordained whatsoever happens.

 

[Boxmaker]

Would somebody please provide a definition of some words for me. I am getting the feeling that we are waring over definitions. If you think of any others, please include them.

Ordain

Whatsoever

Sovergien

 

[heymikey80]

Would somebody please provide a definition of some words for me. I am getting the feeling that we are waring over definitions. If you think of any others, please include them.

I'm pretty sure that's what this has been. Remember you're working with words from the 1600's, too. Etymology would help point these out. Here's my view of these words.

Ordain -- from Latin: to order, arrange, appoint. Often not by the one actually taking or forcing the action at the time. A synonym of "destine", to designate or assign.

Whatsoever/whosoever -- everything. In Scripture this is normally from a Greek phrase stating roughly "all of each", which has always seemed to me very similar to English' "each and every"

Sovereign -- a permanent, deserved, rightful authority (often as an adjectival noun followed by what that authority is).

 

[bradfordl]

But was it His will that sin enter the world or that Adam obey? I think it was His will that Adam obey and Adam did not.

If that is true, what does that make this?:

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Was God just teasin' when He said that? And if it is that God won't or can't turn men's hearts from sin, what does this mean?:

Ezr 6:22 And kept the feast of unleavened bread seven days with joy: for the LORD had made them joyful, and turned the heart of the king of Assyria unto them, to strengthen their hands in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
And:
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Can He only turn kings' hearts, or all humans? If He can, and chooses not to, then is that not an active purposing of events? When He could have, but chose not to, turn Adam's heart from the sin you acknowledge He foreknew Adam would commit, isn't that carrying out His will?

You said:

So God told Adam not to eat the fruit whilce secretly decreeing that Adam would eat the fruit so that God could lower the boom on the whole human race. You have got to be kidding me. God has a whole other secret will by which He judges us but He keeps it secret so He can say our sins are our fault.

Then you said:

God told Adam not to eat the fruit while knowing Adam would disobey.

So which is it, Box? You express incredulity ("You have got to be kidding me."), then say the exact thing you find incredulous. The first statement demonstrates your distaste for the facts of scripture too baldly, so you retreat to an opposite position you suppose is more scriptural while maintaining your adamant rejection of God's absolute and meticulous pre-ordination of all things. And even with all that it does not work, because next you say:

And it is something I have NEVER said. I have said and will say again, God's foreknowledge is perfect. IT is perfect without Him having ordained whatsoever happens.

That's a silly statement. If His foreknowledge is perfect, and He has the ability to intervene whenever He wants, and does not, that is ordaining, that is planning, that is predestining. That is God choosing that this occur and not that. You just don't want to see that, do you?

 

[cygnusx1]

I was under the impression that God ORDAINED all things. For God to permit something implies that there is an alternative. If it has been ordained by God, there is no choice.


Looking at those definitions I would say I am not thinking like a Calvinist. I think God permits us to sin. Though He has the ability to stop us, He lets us. Similar to the Calvinist view of the reprobate soul. That is very different from saying God ordained that things would happen this way and only this way.

What has He not permited? If God prevents some evil from happening then how would we know that?

Maybe we can still keep this straight forward without the need to fall into speculations .

Try reading this Box , if you find it interesting just go to the orginal article and read the entire page , thanks .


How, in the second place, does God make the everlasting continuance of sin in a non-elect sinner a certainty without compelling and necessitating his will? By letting him alone, or, in the Confessional phrase, by ‘passing him by’, and leaving him wholly to his own self-determination in sin? The sublapsarian preterition, which is that of the Westminster Confession and all the Reformed creeds, supposes the fall in Adam and the existence of sin to be prior, in the order of nature, to both election and preterition. Election and preterition, consequently have reference to the continuance of sin, not to the origin of it. All men fall in Adam, without exception; so that there is no election or non-election to the fall itself, but only to deliverance from it. Both election and preterition suppose the fall, and are inexplicable without it as a presupposition. Men are elected from out of a state of sin; and men are passed by and left in a state of sin. ‘They who are elected [and they who are passed by] being fallen in Adam,’ etc., Conf. iii. 6. Election stops the continuation of sin; preterition permits the continuance of it. The non-elect man, then, like the elect, being already in the state of sin and guilt by the free fall in Adam, nothing is requisite in order to make it certain that he will for ever remain in this state but the purpose of God not to restrain and change the action of his free will and self-will in sin by regenerating it. To denominate such merely permissive action as this, compulsion, is absurd. And yet this permissive action of God secures the certainty of everlasting sin and death in the case of the non-elect, just as infallibly as the efficient action of God secures the certainty of everlasting holiness and life in the case of the elect. But in the former instance the certainty is secured wholly by the action of the sinner himself, while in the latter instance it is secured by the action of the Holy Spirit within the sinner. This leaving of the sinful will to its own movement makes endless sin an infallible certainty. For the sinner himself will and can never regenerate himself; and if God has in his sovereignty decided and purposed not to regenerate him, his willing and endless continuance in sin and death is certain. Every Christian knows that if, in his unregeneracy, he had been left wholly to his own free will, without any restraint from God, he would infallibly have gone from bad to worse for ever and ever.
In these two ways of efficiency and permission, God ‘foreordains’ and makes certain two things that unquestionably ‘come to pass,’ namely, the everlasting holiness and life of some men, and the everlasting sin and death of some men; ‘yet so as thereby God is not the author of sin; nor is violence done to the will of the creature; nor is the liberty of second causes taken away, but rather established’. When God predetermined from eternity not to restrain and prevent ‘Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and all the people of Israel’, from crucifying his beloved Son, but to leave them to their own wicked inclination and voluntary action in the case, he made this crucifixion a certainty, but not a necessity, as is evinced by the ‘woe’ pronounced upon them by the Son of God. Luke 22:22. Men with hearts and dispositions full of hatred toward the Saviour of the world, if left to themselves are infallibly certain to cry, ‘Crucify him; crucify him’. John 19: 6-15.
The Confession (vi. i; L.C. 19) declared that God ‘permits’ sin, but that it is not a ‘bare permission’. Conf. v. 4. The permission that is adopted by the Assembly is one that occurs by a voluntary decision of God which He need not have made, had He so pleased. He might have decided not to permit sin; in which case it would not have entered his universe. The ‘bare permission’ which is rejected by the Assembly means that God makes no voluntary decision at all in the case; that He could not have prevented the fall of angels and men, but stands ‘like an idle spectator’, having no control over the event which He witnesses. Augustine makes the following statement in his Enchiridion, Ch. 100: ‘In a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to God’s will [of desire] does not defeat his will [of decree]. For it would not be done did He not permit it, and of course his permission is not unwilling, but willing; nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done except that in his omnipotence He can turn evil into good’. Calvin, adopting Augustine’s phraseology, concisely marks the difference between the two permissions in the remark, that ‘God’s permission of sin is not involuntary, but voluntary’ Inst. I. xviii. 3. Both Augustine and Calvin had particular reference, in this connection, to the first origin of sin in angels and men.1 But their statement holds true of the continuance of sin in angels and men. When God passes by all the fallen and sinful angels, and does not regenerate and save any of them, it is by a positive voluntary decision that might have been different had He so pleased. He could have saved them. And when God passes by some fallen and sinful men and does not regenerate and save them, this also is a positive voluntary decision that might have been different had He so pleased. He could have saved them. To deny this option of God in either instance is to deny, first, the divine sovereignty in the exercise of mercy; and, second, the divine omnipotence in the control of creatures.


http://www.the-highway.com/articleNov02.html

 

[GodsElect]

Matthew 22:29 ...Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

God sovereignly creates and controls all things and events for His own purpose and pleasure

A. All things

1. Colossians 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

2. Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."

B. Afflictions

1. Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up.

2. Exodus 4:11 So the LORD said to him, "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD?

3. Psalms 90:2-3 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever You had formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. 3 You turn man to destruction, And say, "Return, O children of men."

4. Job 5:17-18 "Behold, happy is the man whom God corrects; Therefore do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. 18 For He bruises, but He binds up; He wounds, but His hands make whole.

C. Death

1. Deuteronomy 32:39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

2. 1 Samuel 2:6-10 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. 7 The LORD makes poor and makes rich; He brings low and lifts up. 8 He raises the poor from the dust And lifts the beggar from the ash heap, To set them among princes And make them inherit the throne of glory. "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, And He has set the world upon them. 9 He will guard the feet of His saints, But the wicked shall be silent in darkness. "For by strength no man shall prevail. 10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken in pieces; From heaven He will thunder against them. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth. "He will give strength to His king, And exalt the horn of His anointed."

3. Acts 17:24-26 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,

4. Job 14:5 Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.

D. Evil and destruction

1. Isaiah 45:5-9 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

2. Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

3. Jeremiah 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

4. Micah 2:1-3 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practice it, because it is in the power of their hand. 2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage. 3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.

5. Ecclesiastes 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked? 14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.

6. Psalms 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

7. Amos 8:11-12 "Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord GOD, "That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD. 12 They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD, But shall not find it.

8. Zephaniah 1:12 "And it shall come to pass at that time That I will search Jerusalem with lamps, And punish the men Who are settled in complacency, Who say in their heart, 'The LORD will not do good, Nor will He do evil.'

9. Lamentations 3:37-38 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? 38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

10. Job 1:12-22; 2:7-10
a. Job 34:10-12

11. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Continued...

 

[GodsElect]

V. God sovereignly ordains the actions and ultimate destiny of all people

A. Nations
1. Habakkuk 1:5-6,12 "Look among the nations and watch; Be utterly astounded! For I will work a work in your days Which you would not believe, though it were told you. 6 For indeed I am raising up the Chaldeans, A bitter and hasty nation Which marches through the breadth of the earth, To possess dwelling places that are not theirs. 12 Are You not from everlasting, O LORD my God, my Holy One? We shall not die. O LORD, You have appointed them for judgment; O Rock, You have marked them for correction.

2. Joshua 11:19-20 There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. All the others they took in battle. 20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, and that they might receive no mercy, but that He might destroy them, as the LORD had commanded Moses.

3. God's distaste for nations taking credit for victory

a. Isaiah 37:21-29

B. Men and their actions

1. Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.

2. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

3. Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

4. Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

5. Proverbs 19:21 There are many plans in a man's heart, Nevertheless the Lord's counsel; that will stand.

6. Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are of the LORD; How then can a man understand his own way?

7. Job 12:6 The tents of robbers prosper, And those who provoke God are secure; In what God provides by His hand.

8. Isaiah 22:11 You also made a reservoir between the two walls For the water of the old pool. But you did not look to its Maker, Nor did you have respect for Him who fashioned it long ago.

9. Psalms 139:16-17 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them. 17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How great is the sum of them!

C. The ultimate destiny of the believer is ordained of God

1. Ephesians 1:4,5,9,11 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

2. Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

3. Ezekiel 34:11,12,15 'For thus says the Lord GOD: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 "As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 15 "I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord GOD.

D. The ultimate destiny of the unbeliever is ordained of God

1. Job 34:29 When He gives quietness, who then can make trouble? And when He hides His face, who then can see Him, Whether it is against a nation or a man alone?;

2. Matthew 11:21-27 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 "But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 "Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

* 3.How a person reacts to the sovereignty of God determines whether they worship the God of the Bible or their own god.

a. Luke 4:24-27 And he said, Verily, I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. 30 But he passing through the midst of them went his way,

b. John 6:63-66 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

4. 1 Peter 2:7-9 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone," 8 and "A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed. 9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

5. Revelation 17:8,17 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

a. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-13 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

6. Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

a. cf. Jude 1:11-13 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

1.) 1 Peter 1:4-5 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2.) Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

7. Romans 11:5-10 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. 7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." 9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."

8. John 12:37-41 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" 39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." 41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

9. Romans 9

a. (vs. 14) cf. Jeremiah 12:1-2 Righteous are You, O LORD, when I plead with You; Yet let me talk with You about Your judgments. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why are those happy who deal so treacherously? 2 You have planted them, yes, they have taken root; They grow, yes, they bear fruit. You are near in their mouth But far from their mind.
b. (vs. 17)

1.) cf. Exodus 7:1-5 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. 2 "You shall speak all that I command you. And Aaron your brother shall speak to Pharaoh to send the children of Israel out of his land. 3 "And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. 4 "But Pharaoh will not heed you, so that I may lay My hand on Egypt and bring My armies and My people, the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments. 5 "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out My hand on Egypt and bring out the children of Israel from among them."

2.) cf. Exodus 9:12-16 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. 13 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Rise early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh, and say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: "Let My people go, that they may serve Me, 14 "for at this time I will send all My plagues to your very heart, and on your servants and on your people, that you may know that there is none like Me in all the earth. 15 "Now if I had stretched out My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, then you would have been cut off from the earth. 16 "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

3.) cf. Exodus 10:1-3 Now the LORD said to Moses, "Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him, 2 "and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and your son's son the mighty things I have done in Egypt, and My signs which I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD." 3 So Moses and Aaron came in to Pharaoh and said to him, "Thus says the LORD God of the Hebrews: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me.

c. (vs. 22) cf. Ezekiel 33:11,17-20 "Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?' 17 "Yet the children of your people say, 'The way of the LORD is not fair.' But it is their way which is not fair! 18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 "Yet you say, 'The way of the LORD is not fair.' O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways."



VI. The final analysis: Romans 9:20-21 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

[GodsElect]

Boxmaker,

If you can some how explain away every single verse that was listed into God NOT being in control, God NOT ordaining ALL things for His pleasure and purpose, and make sense, with scripture, of your position and not contradict yourself all over the place.....

Then I just might consider changing my postion on the absolute sovereignty of God.

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker,

If you can some how explain away every single verse that was listed into God NOT being in control, God NOT ordaining ALL things for His pleasure and purpose, and make sense, with scripture, of your position and not contradict yourself all over the place.....

Then I just might consider changing my postion on the absolute sovereignty of God.

No need to. God is in control. God ordains for His pleasure and purpose. That does not mean that God ordains each and every thought and action before the foundations of the world were laid.

God ardained the Jesus would be born. God ordained that Jesus would become sin. God ordained that Jesus would rise and become our savior. God ordained that we would have the will to respond to God's calling in our heart or not.

 

[Boxmaker]

[FONT=&quot]I finally had that ah-ha moment over the weekend. It put the Westminster Confession in perspective. The Westminster is a confession of faith. Those who recite it are saying that they believe it is an accurate summary of the Bible. Chapter 3 is, therefore, an article of faith. As such, it is possible to accept that God ordains everything, including sin, but God is not responsible for sin. It is like faith in the trinity. We can’t explain what it is nor can we prove anything about it. We take it on faith and faith alone. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I searched the internet for confession of faith and got about 1.6 million hits. The Westminster, Mennonite, Baptist, 1689 London Baptist, Scottish, Waldensian of 1120 are just on the first page if hits. Each person who holds to one of those confessions holds it as close to their heart as many on this thread hold the Westminster to their heart. Ask any of them about their confession and they will defend it as vigorously as you defend yours. All will claim Biblical support for their support. It seems that the confessions of faith become filters through which the Bible is read. It is also interesting to note that confessions of faith all came into existence tens of hundreds of years A.D. Of all the confessions of faith I have seen, Peter’s is the most profound.[/FONT]

 

[GodsElect]

God ordained that we would have the will to respond to God's calling in our heart or not.

So where's your free will in that?

 

[Boxmaker]

So where's your free will in that?

To respond to God or not.