Why do Calvinists....

[bradfordl]

My point exactly. The whole incident was predestined!

I'm glad you're in agreement. So then what's the problem? Freedom of choice from the human perspective to maintain culpability, predetermination from God's perspective to carry out His perfect will. Nothing is left contingent by Him, but we face contingencies as second causes that render us responsible.

Again the arrogance of men rises in your argument. When you say "If all has been predestined by God, there is no real choice.", you presume to see things through God's eternal eyes. All He allows you to see is the movie playing out in front of your own two eyes, and from that perspective you have choices to make.

Its always difficult for us humans to understand that God is GOD. We like to think of ourselves as little gods, so we either overinflate our importance or diminish God's power and authority. So when we face the fact of His predetermination of all things, we immediately try to escape culpability. It becomes an either-or argument: either humans are not responsible or God is not able to predestine all things. Both sides of that coin attempt to diminish the vast gulf that exists between the holiness and power of God and the small and fallen estate of man. But it just a wooden nickel:

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

And:

Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[heymikey80]

But thats the crux of the problem. If all has been predestined by God, there is no real choice. You asked your son a question. God had long ago determined that your son would go out to play that day. Your question, also predestined to be asked, was a formality that "triggered" a predestined response.

Choice, free will, do not exist where predestination of all things exists.

Um, I'm having a problem with this.

When your son makes a choice freely based on your making him personally aware of a few things, and he rightly and conscientiously chooses based on that knowledge -- that's not a free choice?

And if you predesignated that by say, 14 years of age all your sons would know these facts and would be able to conscientiously make that decision -- that's not a free choice?

The only difference with God is His ability to understand and perform everything that's needed so that He can't make a mistake.

Where's the absence of free choice from a human standpoint?

 

[Boxmaker]

Um, I'm having a problem with this.

When your son makes a choice freely based on your making him personally aware of a few things, and he rightly and conscientiously chooses based on that knowledge -- that's not a free choice?

And if you predesignated that by say, 14 years of age all your sons would know these facts and would be able to conscientiously make that decision -- that's not a free choice?

The only difference with God is His ability to understand and perform everything that's needed so that He can't make a mistake.

Where's the absence of free choice from a human standpoint?

If you believe the Westimenster Confession then you cannot believe in being able to make a choice, even from a human prospective.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

If you beleive that then you know that you have no real choice. It may look and feel and taste like a real choice from your human prospective, but you know, as an article of your faith, that God unchangable ordained every minute of your life. You witness because is was unchangable ordained by God that you would. Your desire to witness was uncahangablely ordained for your life by God.

Do you believe that to be true?

 

[heymikey80]

If you believe the Westimenster Confession then you cannot believe in being able to make a choice, even from a human prospective.

I have no idea why you would say that. I assert and do believe in being able to make a choice, and in God's ordaining that choice from all eternity. I've no reason to demand of you what I think (being a detailed determinist), but you've yet to offer an argument why this would not be possible.

For detailed determinists, this is entirely plausible.

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

If you beleive that then you know that you have no real choice. It may look and feel and taste like a real choice from your human prospective, but you know, as an article of your faith, that God unchangable ordained every minute of your life. You witness because is was unchangable ordained by God that you would. Your desire to witness was uncahangablely ordained for your life by God.

Do you believe that to be true?

Yes.

Once again I note the critical point of all of this:

God ordains means as well as ends.

I can only think you're expecting Westminster to be saying God ordains by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any condition. What you're complaining about is ordination without means.

And I react against this view much the same way as you do.

But that's not what Westminster says. It simply says He ordained such. It doesn't say He's using His control to override everything, which is now ... I guess in your estimate ... which is now working against God. Is that what you think, that Creation is working against God?

Who created the means?

Westminster is saying God organized and ordered the means (as well as His creation acts and indeed His direct intervention in miracles and in human hearts) to serve His own purposes and His own ends.

I've yet to see the contradiction you've returned to mention a number of times.

 

[Boxmaker]

I'm glad you're in agreement. So then what's the problem? Freedom of choice from the human perspective to maintain culpability, predetermination from God's perspective to carry out His perfect will. Nothing is left contingent by Him, but we face contingencies as second causes that render us responsible.

Again the arrogance of men rises in your argument. When you say "If all has been predestined by God, there is no real choice.", you presume to see things through God's eternal eyes. All He allows you to see is the movie playing out in front of your own two eyes, and from that perspective you have choices to make.

Its always difficult for us humans to understand that God is GOD. We like to think of ourselves as little gods, so we either overinflate our importance or diminish God's power and authority. So when we face the fact of His predetermination of all things, we immediately try to escape culpability. It becomes an either-or argument: either humans are not responsible or God is not able to predestine all things. Both sides of that coin attempt to diminish the vast gulf that exists between the holiness and power of God and the small and fallen estate of man. But it just a wooden nickel:

And:

CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
CHAPTER V.
Of Providence.
I. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.
II. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.


Is a second cause unchangeably ordained by God or is a second cause outside of God's control?

What is a second cause anyhow? After reading through the Westminster it seems that the writers of that confession had a real problem with God, "unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass" because that would make God responsible for every evil action that happens. Knowing God is not evil, they came up with this second cause that they claim absolves God of responsibility. It makes no sense to me because it says that God is responsible for everything except the things He does not want to be responsible for.

A few post ago I put up a discussion of how Sproul thinks God hardens somebody’s heart. He says that God removes His hand and lets that persons own evil nature do the rest. BUT, if chapter 3 of the Westminster is true then the evil actions committed by that person were unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass by God. Does a person who becomes a second cause allow their actions to not be unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

 

[UMP]

What is a second cause anyhow? After reading through the Westminster it seems that the writers of that confession had a real problem with God, "unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass" because that would make God responsible for every evil action that happens. Knowing God is not evil, they came up with this second cause that they claim absolves God of responsibility. It makes no sense to me because it says that God is responsible for everything except the things He does not want to be responsible for.

This might help you:
http://www.sovereign-grace.com/pink/chapter05.htm
If you have not already read the book, I recommend it highly.
However, you may or may not like it. In fact, when Pink published the book in the 1920's one wrote to Pink stating to the effect, "I just wish I could kill you" to which Pink responded, "it is not I you wish to kill, but God"

 

[heymikey80]

Just a quick comment on my struggles with this. If God only has good intent, *and* God has ordained every evil intent of men as well as what good it produces, as well as the fact that these evil intents shall come to nothing but good in eternity -- what is the accusation against this view of God? That He creates evil at all? Doesn't everyone have to admit that God could've prevented evil?

The accusation can't be the results of evil, as He turns the evil He has created to good, and He redeems every evil of men in either His justice or His redemptive atonement

Is it simply the violence done against ... what, people who don't ultimately deserve it? And if eternal punishment is what everyone deserves, I don't really understand why that's undeserved.

 

[bradfordl]

It makes no sense to me because it says that God is responsible for everything except the things He does not want to be responsible for.

That's pretty funny, Box.

BUT, if chapter 3 of the Westminster is true then the evil actions committed by that person were unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass by God. Does a person who becomes a second cause allow their actions to not be unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass?

 

[Boxmaker]

That's pretty funny, Box.

That was worded poorly. Let me try again:

BUT, if chapter 3 of the Westminster is true then the evil actions committed by that person were unchangeably ordained by God. Does God removing His "restraining hand" from a person allow them to become a second cause? And, as a second cause, were this persons actions then not unchangeably ordained by God?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Then lets go step by step.

What does predestination mean to you?

I think a more relavent question would be...

Why do you seem to be so afraid of letting God be completely in control? The Scriptures clearly point out this is so...you're objections have all been based upon reason and the alleged unfairness of it all.

Let me ask you this, too...

Would you accept the Trinity even if you did not have your multi-dimensional paradigm that allows you to logically accept it? Scriptures clearly say there is only one God, yet they also clearly attribute qualities of God-hood to Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit as well as God the father. Many people have logical problems with this...and these seem to be of a similar variety of problem that you are having with God's sovereignty.

 

[roselady]

God dont direct evil, God is in control over everything, but he allows people to make choices, so people are in control over evil. People make ther own choices and bring about evil, not God. God does not force people to love him or make correct choices. They have the right to mess up their lives any way they choose.

 

[Boxmaker]

I think a more relavent question would be...

Why do you seem to be so afraid of letting God be completely in control? The Scriptures clearly point out this is so...you're objections have all been based upon reason and the alleged unfairness of it all.

Let me ask you this, too...

Would you accept the Trinity even if you did not have your multi-dimensional paradigm that allows you to logically accept it? Scriptures clearly say there is only one God, yet they also clearly attribute qualities of God-hood to Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit as well as God the father. Many people have logical problems with this...and these seem to be of a similar variety of problem that you are having with God's sovereignty.

Look at the world around us. We have a president who launhed our country into war for oil and claimed he was doing so because he is a good christian and God told him too. We have abortion clinics in every major city across the world. In some countries, abortion is the only form of birth control used. We have people marching into schools and shooting whoever they see. Did you see the several 20/20 episodes where they arrested a bunh of men for trying to have sex with 14 year old girls? We have MBLA. We have homeless people freezing to death in the winter because the shelters are full.

To be sure, there is a lot of good things going on around us to. But look at all the bad. Record oil company profits and our poor and elderly can't afford to heat their homes during the winter. A divorce rate that is the same in the church as it is within the culture at large.

You ask me to believe that God unchangeably ordained all these things from the beginning of time. Why? "Becasue God is sovergien and He can." "It is all done for God to show His glory."

I am just about finished with Sproul's book. After reading it and looking around the world I am unconvinced that God unchangably ordained everything. I think, and have always thought, God's foreknowledge is perftect so He knows without having to ordain.

Blessings to you. We are off to dinner with friends.

 

[Elderone]

For most of you last post the answer is simply SIN. We have gotten away from God's word and he has allowed (make note of that word ALLOWED) these things to happen. God does NOT ordain

(v.) To prescribe expressly and with authority: • dictate • decree • charge • command • demand • direct • enjoin • impose • instruct • order • proscribe • rule •mandate

these things to happen.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Sounds like us in the U.S. doesn't it - They did not like to retain God in their knowledge

The oil company profits, however, are only 8 percent, most other companies in the U.S. are higher than that, e.g., banks, insurance companies, and a long list of others. You sell a lot of oil and make a big profit, even at 8 percent.

Ours is a capitalist country and complaining about excess profits at only 8 percent is strictly socialist propaganda.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I am just about finished with Sproul's book. After reading it and looking around the world I am unconvinced that God unchangably ordained everything. I think, and have always thought, God's foreknowledge is perftect so He knows without having to ordain.

And again, you really simply dodge the question and the issue of how to approach the Scriptures that say God has foreordained everything.

I guess we're all done here. I'm pretty sure I am.

Have a pleasant dinner!

 

[Boxmaker]

And again, you really simply dodge the question and the issue of how to approach the Scriptures that say God has foreordained everything.

I guess we're all done here. I'm pretty sure I am.

Have a pleasant dinner!

But you never posted anything about Bob George's book!

 

[Boxmaker]

For most of you last post the answer is simply SIN. We have gotten away from God's word and he has allowed (make note of that word ALLOWED) these things to happen. God does NOT ordain these things to happen.

Sounds like us in the U.S. doesn't it - They did not like to retain God in their knowledge

The oil company profits, however, are only 8 percent, most other companies in the U.S. are higher than that, e.g., banks, insurance companies, and a long list of others. You sell a lot of oil and make a big profit, even at 8 percent.

Ours is a capitalist country and complaining about excess profits at only 8 percent is strictly socialist propaganda.

But that is not what your confessioni of faith says, is it?

God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;

Even when God gives somebody over to a reprobate mind, He still unchangeably ordains whatever that person does.

Or the Westminster is not ture...

 

[Boxmaker]

And again, you really simply dodge the question and the issue of how to approach the Scriptures that say God has foreordained everything.

Sproul makes a good argument for people being predestined. He is far less convincing that everything is unchangably ordained.

You accuse me of ignoring scripture. That is not true, I read all the scripture references he, and you, have posted. Where you see unchangable acts, I see God excercising His sovergien will to make things go the way He's will's inspite of our best efforts to either help or hinder His plans.

You see scripture as closed to all but the elect. I see scripture as open to all especially the elect.

You accusing me of dodging an issue when, in fact, you just don't like my response.

Be that as it may, what does predestined mean to you?

 

[Boxmaker]

I think a more relavent question would be...

Why do you seem to be so afraid of letting God be completely in control? The Scriptures clearly point out this is so...you're objections have all been based upon reason and the alleged unfairness of it all.

God IS in control. This world that we live in was not ordained by God. He gave men the curse that they wanted. He gave them control over their lives when Adam sined. Adam wanted to be like God. He bought Satan's great lie. So God gave men control of their lives. Not unbounded control, mind you, but control. God just let us run. He didn't need to ordain what would happen next, it was fairly predictable. But God is in control of my life. I gave control of me life back to Him.

Let me ask you this, too...

Would you accept the Trinity even if you did not have your multi-dimensional paradigm that allows you to logically accept it? Scriptures clearly say there is only one God, yet they also clearly attribute qualities of God-hood to Jesus Christ and to the Holy Spirit as well as God the father. Many people have logical problems with this...and these seem to be of a similar variety of problem that you are having with God's sovereignty.

That is a hard question to answer. I struggled with the Trinity for a long time. Once I saw the multi-dimensional nature of God it allowed my mind to settle the issue.

But I also have a slightly different belief about man. I believe that we were created in God's image. Being created in God's image allows man to understand God, not fully, but enough to understand His plan for man and for each of us inparticular. I don't think God has such disdain for man as some people within this sub-form have voiced.

As such, I don't think that God would unchangeably ordain all that is going on in the world. All that we see around us is far more evil than Holy. What ever must be before the end times will be. But I cannot blame God for the state of the world right now. It reaks of Satan, not Jesus.

Is that better or am i still dodging?

 

[GodsElect]

God IS in control. This world that we live in was not ordained by God. He gave men the curse that they wanted. He gave them control over their lives when Adam sined. Adam wanted to be like God. He bought Satan's great lie. So God gave men control of their lives. Not unbounded control, mind you, but control. God just let us run. He didn't need to ordain what would happen next, it was fairly predictable. But God is in control of my life. I gave control of me life back to Him.

Read Psalm 8?

1 O LORD, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth,
Who have set Your glory above the heavens!

2 Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen—
Even the beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas.

9 O LORD, our Lord,
How excellent is Your name in all the earth!

This psalm is giving PRAISE to HOW SOVEREIGN God is in His creation. And also praise to His ordaining hand of power. Do you know that all your are Boxman, is PRIDEFULL DUST!

So you think God is and old man the sits in heaven and makes something and has no control over its outcome?

I don't think so!

Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

That's right He works ALL THINGS according to the council of HIS OWN WILL! It is clear that you cannot wrap your, PRIDEFULL DUST of an exsistance, around the thought of such an ALMIGHTY GOD! I am truly sorry!

Being created in God's image allows man to understand God, not fully, but enough to understand His plan for man and for each of us inparticular.

WRONG PRESUPPOSITION, I would expect nothing more said from PRIDEFULL DUST!

Romans 3: 11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”[b]
13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

And there are many more scriptures that would not only show that you are wrong for thinking this, but also how much you really are a speck of PRIDEFULL DUST!

Gotta go for now I will give you those scriptures later!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

But you never posted anything about Bob George's book!

I did post on the first few chapters I've read. Between teaching a new adult Sunday school class, preparing for occaisional Sunday morning sermons to fill in for our pastor, attempting to begin catechising our kids, and filling in for homeschooling the kids, I havn't had much time to get back to it. I'll post more when I can get back to it.