Why do Calvinists....

[Boxmaker]

That is true. Once the Spirit convicts you, your will becomes the same as God's will, thus you will not want to reject Him.

Your will dies to God's will once you accept Him. God does not force us, He invites us. Salvation is a gift that is freely offered by God and freely accepted, or rejected, by us.

 

[A New Dawn]

Maybe this is a discussion best taken to GT, since you seem intent on debating.

 

[Boxmaker]

Maybe this is a discussion best taken to GT, since you seem intent on debating.

We have people on this thread who hold two different views on God's plan for salvation. It turns into a he said she said type of discussion. I have my "proof texts" and you have your "proof texts". As the Bible says, we become steel on steel and we sharpen our knowledge of the Word. It does become a bit of a debate but that is not a bad thing. It stimulated discussion and sends us back to our Bibles to make sure we know what we are talking about. Remember these words of Jesus:
Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Move the thread if you must but let it continue. It has been a good thread, at least for me, and I don't think its done yet.

God's peace be with you, my friend.

 

[Boxmaker]

I was thinking about Calvin's TULIP this morning. It lead me to wonder about something. When God was creating the world in Genesis He would survey that which He created and say, "it is good." When He created man He said, "it is very good." If God created us "very good" what happened that we are so TULIP now? Its hard to understand how God created us "very good" and yet predestined us to be TULIP. What say you?

 

[A New Dawn]

We have people on this thread who hold two different views on God's plan for salvation. It turns into a he said she said type of discussion. I have my "proof texts" and you have your "proof texts". As the Bible says, we become steel on steel and we sharpen our knowledge of the Word. It does become a bit of a debate but that is not a bad thing. It stimulated discussion and sends us back to our Bibles to make sure we know what we are talking about. Remember these words of Jesus:
Matthew 10:34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Move the thread if you must but let it continue. It has been a good thread, at least for me, and I don't think its done yet.

God's peace be with you, my friend.

I realize that there are people in the thread with differing understandings about God's plan of salvation, however, this is SR-R, and this is the "Ask a Calvinist" thread. Debate of this sort needs to be done in GT. It is fine to ask questions and fellowship in a congregational that is not yours, but you cannot debate.

 

[A New Dawn]

I was thinking about Calvin's TULIP this morning. It lead me to wonder about something. When God was creating the world in Genesis He would survey that which He created and say, "it is good." When He created man He said, "it is very good." If God created us "very good" what happened that we are so TULIP now? Its hard to understand how God created us "very good" and yet predestined us to be TULIP. What say you?

Man fell from grace.

[BIBLE]Romans 5:12-19[/BIBLE]

 

[GrinningDwarf]

I realize that there are people in the thread with differing understandings about God's plan of salvation, however, this is SR-R, and this is the "Ask a Calvinist" thread. Debate of this sort needs to be done in GT. It is fine to ask questions and fellowship in a congregational that is not yours, but you cannot debate.

With all due respect...and I understand that 'the rules are the rules'...but you do know what would happen to this thread at GT, don't you? Every Armininan and Pelagian in the woodpile would jump in and turn it into a real jungle. At least the discussion here has been civilized and managable. My vote (for what it's worth) is to leave this thread here.

 

[xapis]

I was thinking about Calvin's TULIP this morning. It lead me to wonder about something. When God was creating the world in Genesis He would survey that which He created and say, "it is good." When He created man He said, "it is very good." If God created us "very good" what happened that we are so TULIP now? Its hard to understand how God created us "very good" and yet predestined us to be TULIP. What say you?

Recommended reading for you: http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5124

 

[A New Dawn]

With all due respect...and I understand that 'the rules are the rules'...but you do know what would happen to this thread at GT, don't you? Every Armininan and Pelagian in the woodpile would jump in and turn it into a real jungle. At least the discussion here has been civilized and managable. My vote (for what it's worth) is to leave this thread here.

I wasn't suggesting moving the thread to GT (gulp!), just starting a discussion there that can be adequately debated. (That's why I don't ask questions in other congregationals. I might want to debate the answer. LOL.)

 

[Oye11]

I wasn't suggesting moving the thread to GT (gulp!), just starting a discussion there that can be adequately debated. (That's why I don't ask questions in other congregationals. I might want to debate the answer. LOL.)

It`s no problem. That debate comes up at least once a week in GT and archives are full of it... You can also check the soteriology section under theology. Are several of these discussions going on right now I believe. Given this is the Calvinist domain it isn`t the place to rigoriously their beliefs. Just my two cents and you probably already agree...

 

[GrinningDwarf]

It`s no problem. That debate comes up at least once a week in GT and archives are full of it... You can also check the soteriology section under theology. Are several of these discussions going on right now I believe. Given this is the Calvinist domain it isn`t the place to rigoriously their beliefs. Just my two cents and you probably already agree...

The only problem with taking the discussion to those other forums is that, from what I've seen over there, they almost always devolve into ugly, unproductive furballs...which this thread has avoided so far here.

 

[Oye11]

The only problem with taking the discussion to those other forums is that, from what I've seen over there, they almost always devolve into ugly, unproductive furballs...which this thread has avoided so far here.

Okay keep going, don`t mind me...

 

[A New Dawn]

Okay keep going, don`t mind me...

Or me ........

 

[Boxmaker]

Man fell from grace.

[bible]Romans 5:12-19[/bible]

Mankind fell from grace, but that doesn't mean he fell into such a dispicable state described by TULIP. David was a man after God's heart and God loved Him even after all the bad stuff David did. God did punish him, but God did not destroy Him. Worse happend to Job and Job was faithful to God and hadn't done anything to warrent punishment by God. Men need a saviour because none of us can save ourself. Being created in God's image means we have the ability to understand and respond to that saviour. God convicts us of the truth and we respond.

Remember the story of the rich man?
Mathew 19: 21-22
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Jesus convicted this man of the truth, that he valued his wealth more than he valued following Jesus. he man recognized this and yet he still walked away.

Being convicted of the truth does not mean we will accept it. It is scary to accept God's will for you life. God does not leave us in our comfort zones. He challenges us and that can be very scary, whcih reveals our lack of faith. The truth is before us and yet we can still refuse it.

 

[Boxmaker]

This is a little off topic, okay, is way off topic. What is the GT forum? I will admit I have not mastered the navigation of this forum so I may well have strated this thread in the wrong place. (Maybe is destined to do so)

 

[bradfordl]

Worse happend to Job and Job was faithful to God and hadn't done anything to warrent punishment by God.

Really? That's not what Job said:

Job 13:26 For You write bitter things against me, and make me to possess the sins of my youth.

 

[Boxmaker]

Really? That's not what Job said:

Ah yes, but we have the book of Job and we know better because of it, don't we.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Being created in God's image means we have the ability to understand and respond to that saviour.

I'm gonna refrain from responding in more depth to this until after you get Chosen By God. Then we can discuss some basic assumptions that your statement here presupposes.

I've ordered Bob George's Classic Christianity. Should be here Thursday or Friday.

BTW...GT is the General Theology forum here at Christian Forums. It's a pretty rough-and-tumble place...not for the faint of heart!

 

[bradfordl]

Ah yes, but we have the book of Job and we know better because of it, don't we.

Don't know what you mean. You said Job had done nothing to warrant punishment by God. Job spoke of the sin of his youth. If you believe that Job was without sin then you make him the only human besides Jesus that never needed a saviour.

Mankind fell from grace, but that doesn't mean he fell into such a dispicable state described by TULIP.

Keep clinging desperately to some vestige of a commendable quality innate in unregenerate man enabling him to freely make a decision "for Christ". It makes you feel less powerless. And besides, you whittle it down to the teeniest, tiniest piece of the equation, so that it doesn't appear like so much to glory over, hardly enough to boast about, right? But as an engineer, you know that in any system or circuit, the teeniest, tiniest switch that breaks the circuit is at least as determinate as any other part of the circuit. Its simple logic, the binary switch determines the output of the code. So that ability to decide becomes as important as any other part of salvation in your paradigm. And since you also infer that the default setting for the system is an offer of salvation from God, that decision becomes even more powerful in that it is the only part that is volitional. God is your robot and you are His operator.

But scripture says:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one;
Rom 3:11 there is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God."
Rom 3:12 "They are all gone out of the way, they have together become unprofitable, there is none that does good, no, not one."
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave, with their tongues they have used deceit, the poison of asps is under their lips;
Rom 3:14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness;"
Rom 3:15 "their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 destruction and misery are in their way,
Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they did not know."
Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

But you've been told all this over and over again in this thread, so I'm not deluded into thinking you'll suddenly accede to it now. I think you understand it, but something in you abhors it, so you willfully disengage your God-given reason to hide from it. You might want to ask yourself why.

Brad

 

[Boxmaker]

Don't know what you mean. You said Job had done nothing to warrant punishment by God. Job spoke of the sin of his youth. If you believe that Job was without sin then you make him the only human besides Jesus that never needed a saviour.

Keep clinging desperately to some vestige of a commendable quality innate in unregenerate man enabling him to freely make a decision "for Christ". It makes you feel less powerless. And besides, you whittle it down to the teeniest, tiniest piece of the equation, so that it doesn't appear like so much to glory over, hardly enough to boast about, right? But as an engineer, you know that in any system or circuit, the teeniest, tiniest switch that breaks the circuit is at least as determinate as any other part of the circuit. Its simple logic, the binary switch determines the output of the code. So that ability to decide becomes as important as any other part of salvation in your paradigm. And since you also infer that the default setting for the system is an offer of salvation from God, that decision becomes even more powerful in that it is the only part that is volitional. God is your robot and you are His operator.

But scripture says:

But you've been told all this over and over again in this thread, so I'm not deluded into thinking you'll suddenly accede to it now. I think you understand it, but something in you abhors it, so you willfully disengage your God-given reason to hide from it. You might want to ask yourself why.

Brad

I never said he was without sin. And Job believed that he was being punished for his sins of youth.

Job 1
Prologue
1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Not sinless for no man is. But he did live blameless and feared the Lord. An fthe Lord said there were none in the Earth like him. So I stand by what I said. Though Job was not sinless, He had not done anything to earn the wrath of God before God gave him to Satan to test.