Why do Calvinists....

[A New Dawn]

How soveregien can God be if He needs is to do something form Him? That just doesn't sound right.

We don't do anything "for" Him. We present the gospel as He has commanded, and the Holy Spirit does the "job".

 

[FreeInChrist2]

Boxmaker, try AW Pinks - "Sovereignty of God". Here is the link for his book, or I can post it One chapter at a time...which ever you prefer?

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

If it does not work try his archives.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/pinks_archive.htm

 

[Boxmaker]

We don't do anything "for" Him. We present the gospel as He has commanded, and the Holy Spirit does the "job".

But if we don't do the presenting then the Holy Spirit can't do His "job" either!

So what I'm hearing now is that I can't have any hand in my own salvation because God has to do all of that or He's not soverigein. BUT I need to play a part in my neighbors salvation because God isn't soverigein enough to take care of them too! My head doth spinith mightely!

Wouldn't it make more sense for God to leave a Bible in, say, a hotel room, give them the curiousity to open it and then the Holy Spirit could do His "job"?

 

[Boxmaker]

Boxmaker, try AW Pinks - "Sovereignty of God". Here is the link for his book, or I can post it One chapter at a time...which ever you prefer?

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sovereignty.htm

If it does not work try his archives.

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/pinks_archive.htm

You read "Classic Christianity" by Bob George and I will read this AW Pinks. Deal?

 

[A New Dawn]

But if we don't do the presenting then the Holy Spirit can't do His "job" either!

So what I'm hearing now is that I can't have any hand in my own salvation because God has to do all of that or He's not soverigein. BUT I need to play a part in my neighbors salvation because God isn't soverigein enough to take care of them too! My head doth spinith mightely!

Wouldn't it make more sense for God to leave a Bible in, say, a hotel room, give them the curiousity to open it and then the Holy Spirit could do His "job"?

I have heard of it happening this way, but those are the exceptions. God ordained the gospel to be spread by the foolishness of preaching. The external call (what we preach) is not what saves, it is the internal call (the Spirit changing our heart so we have ears to hear (OK, mixed metaphors )). Even the elect can hear the external call 100's of times without the spirit bearing witness. Who is to say how or when God acts?

 

[nill]

Boxmaker,

You're like the desk in the hotel room saying, "But I NEED to play a part in this person's salvation!" Or you're like the four-page tract saying, "But I NEED to play a part in this person's salvation!"

You don't NEED to. You will serve the role God gives you, yes. God may lead you to preach the gospel to your neighbor. As a matter of fact, when it comes down to preaching the gospel, He often does use people. But when the people are the ones saying, "God NEEDS us! There is no gospel without us," they miss the point.

A desk upon which a Bible lies cannot say it is "part" of someone else's salvation. You don't "play a part" if you mean that part somehow contributes to salvation. It doesn't. It was well said by someone (probably R.C. Sproul) that we contribute nothing to salvation except sin. Your preaching does not contribute towards salvation. What it does demonstrate, however, is that God may use you, an arguably better tool than a desk that holds a book, to preach if He so desires. Your preaching may not lead the man to salvation right away, and you may not preach to the man at all, even. But God is the source of our salvation. Not our will, not choosing to be born of God, not choosing to become alive, and not choosing to "unblind" our unseeing eyes.

 

[Boxmaker]

I have heard of it happening this way, but those are the exceptions. God ordained the gospel to be spread by the foolishness of preaching. The external call (what we preach) is not what saves, it is the internal call (the Spirit changing our heart so we have ears to hear (OK, mixed metaphors )). Even the elect can hear the external call 100's of times without the spirit bearing witness. Who is to say how or when God acts?

God does foolish things too!?!?

We are so close to the same thing. The Spirit works on our hearts and convicts of us of the truth of the Gospel. Here is the only point I see as majorly different. Once convicted of the truth, God's soverigein will is that we make a choice: either acept His gift of salvation or reject it. Calvinism says that once the Spirit convicts you of the truth of the gospel, you have no choice but to accept God.

 

[bradfordl]

God does foolish things too!?!?

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom did not know God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe.

Uh-huh.

 

[FreeInChrist2]

We are so close to the same thing. The Spirit works on our hearts and convicts of us of the truth of the Gospel. Here is the only point I see as majorly different. Once convicted of the truth, God's soverigein will is that we make a choice: either acept His gift of salvation or reject it. Calvinism says that once the Spirit convicts you of the truth of the gospel, you have no choice but to accept God.

No! Gods sovereign will is...we don't have a choice, No where in scripture does it teach Gods will is that you have to make a choice!

If you have the choice to accept or reject it, then it is not a gift, but an offer, only good upon your accepting, and of course you can reject an offer.

Can you unchoose Christ's death and resurection?

If I were a multi millionaire and came to your birthday party and the gift I gave you was a million dollars in cash...

...You don't have a choice to accept it or reject it.

It's Yours! It's a gift! Not an offer!

Who in their right mind would reject a million dollars?

Besides the Jews? and unbelievers!

As I have stated before, you have got to get away from this offer /choice understanding of salvation...it is a declaration of salvation. A declaration of something is not up for grabs, take it or leave it choices...like taxes...it has been declared you will pay taxes.

Although I do like the offer/choice option of paying taxes. But I have no choice.

God does not give a gift and then says, but its conditional upon you. Yet it is conditional upon Him giving it, but unconditional to those whom he gives it too, and He gives it to whom He wills.

Unless your will trumps Gods? I Don't think so!

If you have been given the free gift of salvation, why in the world would you want the choice to give it back? Pretty silly, Eh! OK so you want the choice, so what are you going to do...choose to go to hell?

That should cause your heart much rejoicing...you can't give it back! (unless it was never given to you in the first place)

Who wants a God that would give us a choice to say ...NO, don't save me unless I give you my permission?

When your children were born, aren't you glad you didn't have to make the choice to keep them or give them up for adoption? Don't dare you say...but I did have a choice...tell your wife that and see what happens! I'm sure she has a favorite name for you.

Now go and tell every one how this multi-millionaire gave you a million dollars in cash, Give it away one thousand dollars at a time if you like. And whoever says, Ooohhh, let me decide if I can accept it, just move on and give it to someone else and let the dead bury the dead.

And this is why we evangelize, we don't know whom knows a free gift when they are given it and those whom have to make a choice to receive it. We just know that all whom God has appointed to eternal life will rejoice in it when they have it and it's not up to us to make sure the anyone gets it. Yet all of it is the Spirits work. With out the Spirit, there would be no Preaching, Evagelizing, Receiving or Rejecting, and there is no chioce upon whom, when or where the Spirit works.

 

[A New Dawn]

God does foolish things too!?!?

We are so close to the same thing. The Spirit works on our hearts and convicts of us of the truth of the Gospel. Here is the only point I see as majorly different. Once convicted of the truth, God's soverigein will is that we make a choice: either acept His gift of salvation or reject it. Calvinism says that once the Spirit convicts you of the truth of the gospel, you have no choice but to accept God.

That is true. Once the Spirit convicts you, your will becomes the same as God's will, thus you will not want to reject Him.

 

[gloryseven]

Thanks for sharing. Ive heard of Calvinsim , and wanted to hear what was being said.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

How soveregien can God be if He needs is to do something form Him? That just doesn't sound right.

This is kinda like saying my friend, a cabinetmaker, can't be a carpenter because he doesn't actually drive in the nails...the hammer is driving in the nails. Similarly, our preaching of the Word (even in one-on-one evangelism) is the hammer that God uses to gather His elect.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Wouldn't it make more sense for God to leave a Bible in, say, a hotel room, give them the curiousity to open it and then the Holy Spirit could do His "job"?

It might make more sense to some of us...but God didn't command us all to be Gideons and leave Bibles laying around. He commanded us to preach the Word. If God says "I'm going to gather the elect, and this is how I'm going to do it", who are we to argue with God?

 

[FreeInChrist2]

If you want to refute what we have been telling you, read Pink's 'Sovereignty of God' for starters.

You read "Classic Christianity" by Bob George and I will read this AW Pinks. Deal?

Childs Play!

But send me the link anyway. I'm sure it will be a classic.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

You read "Classic Christianity" by Bob George and I will read this AW Pinks. Deal?

I really think you'd be better off starting with RC Sproul's Chosen By God. Pink wrote in the early 1900s; Sproul is more contemporary. Pink hammers you over the head with God's sovereignty; Sproul builds a rational arguement. Pink is fight club; Sproul is aikido.

I'll order Classic Christianity from CBD this week. You pick up a copy of Chosen By God, and then we'll talk about them, OK?

 

[GrinningDwarf]

But if we don't do the presenting then the Holy Spirit can't do His "job" either!

You don't think the Holy Spirit is doing His job simply by using us to present the Gospel?

 

[Boxmaker]

I really think you'd be better off starting with RC Sproul's Chosen By God. Pink wrote in the early 1900s; Sproul is more contemporary. Pink hammers you over the head with God's sovereignty; Sproul builds a rational arguement. Pink is fight club; Sproul is aikido.

I'll order Classic Christianity from CBD this week. You pick up a copy of Chosen By God, and then we'll talk about them, OK?

OK.

 

[Boxmaker]

If you want to refute what we have been telling you, read Pink's 'Sovereignty of God' for starters.



Childs Play!

But send me the link anyway. I'm sure it will be a classic.

Sorry, there is no link. Bob George does a daily radio show called People to People so his books are still covered by copyright.

 

[Boxmaker]

You don't think the Holy Spirit is doing His job simply by using us to present the Gospel?

No. Our job, according to Paul, is to provide a reason for the hope within. The Holy Spirit convicts your heart of that truth. If the Holy Spirit (God) were directly using us like that then we would all be perfect at sharing the Gospel and we are not. Some people do it better than others, each according to their gift.

 

[Boxmaker]

No! Gods sovereign will is...we don't have a choice, No where in scripture does it teach Gods will is that you have to make a choice!

If you have the choice to accept or reject it, then it is not a gift, but an offer, only good upon your accepting, and of course you can reject an offer.

Can you unchoose Christ's death and resurection?

If I were a multi millionaire and came to your birthday party and the gift I gave you was a million dollars in cash...

...You don't have a choice to accept it or reject it.

It's Yours! It's a gift! Not an offer!

Who in their right mind would reject a million dollars?

Besides the Jews? and unbelievers!

As I have stated before, you have got to get away from this offer /choice understanding of salvation...it is a declaration of salvation. A declaration of something is not up for grabs, take it or leave it choices...like taxes...it has been declared you will pay taxes.

Although I do like the offer/choice option of paying taxes. But I have no choice.

God does not give a gift and then says, but its conditional upon you. Yet it is conditional upon Him giving it, but unconditional to those whom he gives it too, and He gives it to whom He wills.

Unless your will trumps Gods? I Don't think so!

If you have been given the free gift of salvation, why in the world would you want the choice to give it back? Pretty silly, Eh! OK so you want the choice, so what are you going to do...choose to go to hell?

That should cause your heart much rejoicing...you can't give it back! (unless it was never given to you in the first place)

Who wants a God that would give us a choice to say ...NO, don't save me unless I give you my permission?

When your children were born, aren't you glad you didn't have to make the choice to keep them or give them up for adoption? Don't dare you say...but I did have a choice...tell your wife that and see what happens! I'm sure she has a favorite name for you.

Now go and tell every one how this multi-millionaire gave you a million dollars in cash, Give it away one thousand dollars at a time if you like. And whoever says, Ooohhh, let me decide if I can accept it, just move on and give it to someone else and let the dead bury the dead.

And this is why we evangelize, we don't know whom knows a free gift when they are given it and those whom have to make a choice to receive it. We just know that all whom God has appointed to eternal life will rejoice in it when they have it and it's not up to us to make sure the anyone gets it. Yet all of it is the Spirits work. With out the Spirit, there would be no Preaching, Evagelizing, Receiving or Rejecting, and there is no chioce upon whom, when or where the Spirit works.

Bad analogy. You can give me a million dollars. I can give it back to you. If I call it a gift then, according to your anology, you cannot refuse it and you must take it back.

Children are also a bad anology. We wanted our children. We planned for them. There are other people out there, like the blended family around the corner from us, that see kids as a henderance to their lifestyle and ignore and neglect the children. Their basic needs are met but their emotional needs are ignored.