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FreeInChrist2

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CHAPTER 5
RECOVERING A POLEMICAL STAND IN THE POSTMODERN WORLD

With movements like consumerism, Counterfeit Revivals (Toronto and Pensacola), spiritual abuse (International Churches of Christ), Evangelicals and Catholics Together (Charles Colson and Richard John Neuhaus), just to name a few, polemics is clearly needed today to keep the church from doctrinal error, apostasy, and the destruction of the lives and souls of people. The gospel and the authority of Scripture are under a massive assault on many fronts. All that the reformers fought for, all that the apostles proclaimed and died for, all that God sent Jesus to the cross for is threatened today by Christians who are concerned with things other than doctrinal purity. The recovery of polemics can bring the church back to its Scriptural message and mission.

While revival is on the lips of leaders worldwide, the statistical evidence shows anarchy on the horizon.1 What is needed is not revival but reformation.2 The biblically grounded teaching of John MacArthur can give the church guidance here. MacArthur's teaching is that discernment is needed to distinguish between truth and error. In his book Reckless Faith he wrote, "Does the Scripture tell us how to be discerning? It certainly does. Paul sums up the process in 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 [NASB]: ‘Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; abstain from every form of evil.' There, in three straightforward commands, he spells out the requirements of a discerning mind."3


But what is the standard by which to judge truth? After he covered the relevant biblical passages, MacArthur concluded, "Therefore, Paul is affirming that the Bible is the only reliable criterion by which believers in this age can evaluate any message claiming to be the truth from God."4 MacArthur explained several ingredients for a recipe for discernment. The ingredients are: (1) desire wisdom; (2) pray for discernment; (3) obey the truth; (4) follow discerning leaders; (5) depend on the Holy Spirit; (6) study the Scriptures; and (7) keep growing.5


One cannot have true spiritual discernment apart from the Bible. The Reformation conviction sola scriptura or Scripture alone must be renewed. This doctrine means the Scriptures alone are authoritative for doctrine and practice. To resist a postmodern approach to the Scriptures, one must approach them as objective universal truth. This idea would seem to be a given, but too often today Christians approach the Bible from an existential or pragmatic perspective. As Michael Horton pointed out, "Scripture alone not only does not mean individualism or subjectivism; it must not be construed as saying that the Bible tells us everything. . . . Scripture is chiefly concerned with the unfolding drama of redemption, from the Garden of Eden to the New Jerusalem, and everything relates to Christ as prophet, priest, and king. . . . That means that the Bible is not principally concerned with organizing our schedule, giving us tips for winning in life and business, or with guiding us into self-fulfillment."6 Yet too often this is where the emphasis lies. People want what is "practical" and "relevant." However, many do not understand that what is eternal is what is ultimately relevant.

Accepting the sole authority of the Scriptures, basing the ministry of the church on it, and pointing out errors of those who reject the authority of the Scriptures will not be comfortable or popular; but then, God did not call the church to be comfortable or popular. In many cases people will reject biblical doctrine and continue in error. What is the church to do in such situations? In the Bible, false doctrine is considered a grave sin. The church's apathetic attitude toward false doctrine and false teachers was not shared by Jesus and the apostles. The Bible's strongest warnings are reserved for those engaging in false doctrine. Those who want to uphold the authority of the Scriptures must take this seriously.


In Matthew 18:15-20 Jesus provided the formula for dealing with a sinning brother. It deals with personally confronting the person in error with hopes of repentance and restoration. If no repentance takes place, the person is to be dismissed from fellowship in the church and considered an unbeliever. This is the doctrine of separation, a doctrine no longer practiced in most churches. This may seem severe, but that is because the effect of tolerating sin (and false doctrine is sin) in the church is devastating. Other passages dealing with separation are Romans 16: 17-20, 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, 2 Corinthians 6:14-18, Galatians 1:8, 2 Thessalonians 3:6, 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15, and Titus 3:10-11.

Many today despise the doctrine of separation preferring to generate unity, but as Richard Mayhue noted, the Bible places higher priority on doctrinal purity than church unity. Mayhue summarized, "(1) The Bible is our only infallible rule of faith and practice. (2) Doctrinal purity is an essential mark of the church. (3)


The New Testament does command separating from doctrinal impurity. These conditions are mandated by New Testament teaching. Therefore, we can confidently conclude that the Bible expressly forbids entering or sustaining ecclesiastical relationships with those who characteristically reject truth and/or habitually persist in doctrinal error."7


The prince of preachers, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, in his statement as to why he separated from the London Baptist Association in 1888 wrote, "Complicity with error will take from the best of men the power to enter any successful protest against it. If any body of believers had errorists among them, but were resolute to deal with them in the name of the Lord, all might come right; but confederacies founded upon the principle that all may enter, whatever views they hold, are based upon disloyalty to the truth of God. If truth is optional, error is justifiable."8


Many today are making their doctrinal statements as short and general as possible to include the most amount of people. Some are even saying that doctrinal statements should be done away with altogether and make belief in Jesus the only requirement.9 This position is clearly insufficient since Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses believe in Jesus.


The Bible is clear on this issue, but it rubs against the grain of the times. The church must be courageous and stand on the truth of the Word of God no matter the cost, even if it means separating from those in error. Polemics must be done in love, but it must be done nonetheless.
 
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CHAPTER 6
CONCLUSION
Postmodernism poses a great challenge to Christianity. The tenents of postmodern thought undermine the gospel and the authority of Scripture by denying the existence of, or at least the ability to know, objective and absolute truth. Postmodernism makes the individual the author of his or her own "truth." Postmodernism is intellectual anarchy and, if left unchallenged, will lead to neo-barbarism. An orderly, just, logical, and humane society is impossible when depraved humanity is permitted to create their own reality.

People cannot survive long without truth. Many people realize the vanity of postmodern beliefs, but do not know where to turn for truth. The church may have its greatest opportunity to share the gospel than it ever has since the era of the early church. The Greco-Roman culture of the early church was quite similar to that of postmodernism and the church thrived during that time.


However, if the church does not engage in polemics to define the truth within its own ranks, then it will lose the current window of opportunity to bring the gospel to the lost. Failure to recover the authority of Scripture will result in the culture's increased confusion, despair, and disintegration. Society will long for order more than truth and may turn to any source of authority to bring order. This situation could very well be setting the stage for the end-times scenario taught in the Bible. This scenario includes a world ruler (the antichrist) who will lead the world into a global government, economy, and religion.


In any case, the church still has a biblical mandate to contend for the truth of the gospel and uphold the authority of the Scriptures. As the professing church continues on its path to apostasy, those who are discerning must draw the line and separate from apostates in order to be faithful to God. Those who choose to be faithful to God will face great opposition and derision by those who desire unity over truth. However, no Christian unity can exist apart from truth. The only unity that the current ecumenical movement has is its unity in disloyalty to truth.


Though those who adhere to truth will be scorned they are in good company. The Old Testaments prophets, the apostles, and even Jesus himself were all persecuted by those who rejected the truth. But Jesus prayed for his people in John 17. He prayed, "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth."1



NOTES
Chapter One
1. 2 Tim. 4:1-5 NKJV (New King James Version).

2. George Barna, The Barna Report: What Americans Believe (Ventura, CA: Regal Books, 1991), 292-294.

3. 1 Pet. 4:17, NKJV.

4. Don Matzat, "Inside Look at the Promise Keepers," Issues, Etc. Journal 2, no.6 (winter 1998): 3-13; Dave Hunt, "Q&A" and "News Alert," The Berean Call (September 1997): 3, 4.

Chapter Two

1. Friedrich Nietzsche, "The Madman," Gay Science 125, in The Portable Nietzsche, trans. Walter Kaufmann (New York: Viking, 1954), 95-96.

2. James W. Sire, The Universe Next Door: A Basic Worldview Catalog, 3d ed. (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1997), 173.

3. Ibid., 175.

4. Ibid.

5. Gene Edward Veith Jr., Postmodern Times: A Christian Guide to Contemporary Thought and Culture, (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1995), 32-33.

6. David Breese, Seven Men Who Rule the World From the Grave (Oklahoma City: The Southwest Radio Church, 1980), 20-21.

7. Sire, 175-84.

8. Don Matzat, "Apologetics in a Postmodern Age," Issues, Etc. Journal 2, no. 5 (Fall 1997): 7.

9. Postmodern's influence in these areas in superbly treated in Dennis McCallum, ed., The Death of Truth (Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1996).

Chapter Three

1. Jude 3, NKJV.

2. The American Heritage Dictionary of the English
Language (1976), s.v. "polemic".

3. Michael Horton, "How to Be Polemical (Without Being A Downright Nasty Person)," Modern Reformation 5, no.5 (Sept./Oct. 1996): 4.

4. Ibid., 5.

5. Ibid.

6. 1 Tim. 3:15, NKJV.

7. John F. MacArthur, Reckless Faith: When the Church Loses Its Will to Discern (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994), 52; Scripture quoted from Tit. 1:9, NASB (New American Standard Bible).

8. Gordon H. Clark, A Christian Philosophy of Education (Jefferson, Md.: Trinity Foundation, 1988), 158; quoted in MacArthur, 44.

9. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, Romans: An Exposition of Chapters 3.20-4.25: Atonement and Justification (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1970), 113; quoted in MacArthur, 48.

10. Jay E. Adams, A Call to Discernment (Eugene, Ore.: Harvest House, 1987), 31; quoted in MacArthur 49-50.

11. Ibid., 29; quoted in MacArthur, 50.

12. David W. Cloud, "Fundamentalism, Modernism, and New-Evangelicalism (Part III)," O Timothy 12, no. 1 (1995) [database on-line]; available from http://www.whidbey.net/~dcloud/fbns/fundamen3.htm; Internet; accessed 24 October 1997.

13. Ibid.

14. For a comprehensive treatment of New Evangelicalism see John E. Ashbrook, New Neutralism II: Exposing the Gray of Compromise (n.p.: Here I Stand Books, 1992) available for $4.00 from Here I Stand Books 536 Greenside Dr. Painesville, OH 44077 or phone (440) 354-7725.

Chapter Four

1. See the bibliography for a sampling of books dealing with the challenges faceing the Evangelical Church.

2. Charles Colson, "Welcome to McChurch," Christianity Today, 9 November 1992, 33-35.

3. Ibid.

4. Michael Horton, Polemics, audiotape of interview by Don Matzat on the radio broadcast Issues, Etc. 5/4/97. Available from Issues, Etc. 1-800-737-0172.

5. Gene Edward Veith, Postmodernism, audiotape of interview by Don Matzat on the radio broadcast Issues, Etc. 10/12/97. Available from Issues, Etc. 1-800-737-0172.

6. John D. Hannah, The Coming Evangelical Crisis: Current Challenges to the Authority of Scripture and the Gospel, ed. John H. Armstrong (Chicago: Moody Press, 1996), 156.

7. Bruce Shelley and Marshall Shelley, The Consumer Church: Can Evangelicals Win the World Without Losing Their Souls? (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1992), 156.

8. Millard J. Erickson, Postmodernizing the Faith: Evangelical Responses to the Challenge of Postmodernism (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998), 34-35.

9. Hank Hanegraaff, Counterfeit Revival: Looking for God In All the Wrong Places (Dallas: Word Publishing, 1997), 13.

10. Michael G. Moriarity, The New Charismatics: A Concerned Voice Responds to Dangerous New Trends (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992); John F. MacArthur Jr., Charismatic Chaos (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992); on the Internet see www.discernment.org and www.equip.org.

11. Ken Blue, Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), 12.

12. Ronald M. Enroth, Churches that Abuse: Help for Those Hurt by Legalism, Authoritarian Leadership, Manipulation, Excessive Discipline, and Spiritual Intimidation (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992), 29.

13. Richard N. Ostling, "Keepers of the Flock," Time, 18 May 1992, 62.

14. Randy Frame, "The Cost of Discipleship?" Christianity Today, 1 September 1997, 66.

15. Ibid.

16. Ibid., 88.

17. Charles Colson and Richard John Neuhaus, eds., Evangelicals and Catholics Together: Toward a Common Mission (Dallas: Word Publishing, 1995), xv.

18. Ibid., xvii.

19. Timothy George, "Evangelicals and Catholics Together: A New Initiative," Christianity Today 8 December 1997, 34-36, 38.

20. Ibid., 34-35.

21. Ibid., 35.

22. Ibid., 36.

23. Ibid., 38.

Chapter Five

1. Mark Wingfield, "Researcher Barna See Anarchy, Not Revival, on Horizon," Baptist New Mexican, 23 March 1996, 7.

2. Hank Hanegraaff, Hypnotic Seduction in The Church, audiotape of lecture given in Vancouver, British Columbia in 1997. Available from the Christian Research Institute 1-800-443-9797.

3. John F. MacArthur, Reckless Faith: When the Church Loses Its Will to Discern (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994), 69.

4. Ibid., 76.

5. Ibid., 81-90.

6. Michael Horton, The Coming Evangelical Crisis, ed. John H. Armstrong (Chicago: Moody Press, 1996), 251.

7. Richard Mayhue, "Separation in Ministry Relationships," Voice: An Independent Church Journal 72, no. 5 (September/October 1993): 21.

8. Charles H. Spurgeon, "The Drift of the Times: Sound the Alarm!" The Baptist Challenge 35, no. 3 (March 1995): 16.

9. Gary Cameron, "Truth and Unity," The New Reformation Review 1, no. 5 (August 1993):3 [jounal on-line]; available from http://www.mindspring.com/~krwatson/nrr/0105aug.html; Internet; accessed 21 November 1997.

Chapter Six

1. John 17:14-19, NKJV.





SELECTED BIBLIOGRAPHY

Allen, Diogenes. Christian Belief in a Postmodern World: The Full Wealth of Conviction. Louisville: Westminster/John Knox Press, 1989.
Armstrong, John, ed. The Coming Evangelical Crisis. Chicago: Moody Press, 1996.

Ashbrook, John E. New Neutralism: Exposing the Gray of Compromise. n.p: Here I Stand Books, 1992.

________ . Axioms of Separation. n.p.: Here I Stand Books, n.d.

Blue, Ken. Healing Spiritual Abuse: How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993.

Breese, David. Seven Men Who Rule the World From the Grave. Oklahoma City: Southwest Radio Church, 1980.

Cameron, Gary. "Truth and Unity." The New Reformation Review 1, no. 5 (August 1993): 1-6. Journal on-line. Available from http://www.mindspring.com/~krwatson/nrr/010aug.html.

Cloud, David. "Fundamentalism, Modernism, and New-Evangelicalism." O Timothy 12, no. 1 (1995). Database on-line. Available from http://www.whidbey.net/~dcloud/fbns/fundamental3.htm.

Colson, Charles and Richard John Neuhaus, eds. Evangelicals and Catholics Together: Toward a Common Mission. Dallas: Word Publishing, 1995.

Dobson, Edward. In Search of Unity: An Appeal to Fundamentalists and Evangelicals. Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1985.

Dockery, David S., ed. The Challenge of Postmodernism: An Evangelical Engagement. Wheaton: BridgePoint (Victor Books), 1995.

Enroth, Ron. Churches That Abuse. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing, 1993.

Erickson, Millard J. The Evangelical Mind and Heart: Perspectives on Theological and Practical Issues. Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1993.

________ . Where Is Theology Going? Issues and Perspectives on the Future of Theology. Grand Rapids: Baker Books, 1994.

________ . Postmodernizing the Faith: Evangelical Responses to the Challenge of Postmodernism. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998.

Frame, Randy. "The Cost of Discipleship?" Christianity Today 1 September 1997, 64-66, 88.

George, Timothy. "Evangelicals and Catholics Together: A New Initiative." Christianity Today 8 December 1997, 34-38.

Griffiths, Paul J. "Why We Need Interreligious Polemics." First Things 44 (June/July 1994): 31-37. [Journal on-line]. Available from http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9406/griffith.html.

Hanegraaff, Hank. Counterfeit Revival. Dallas: Word Publishing, 1997.

________ . Hypnotic Seduction in the Church, n.d. Christian Research Institute. Cassette.

Horton, Michael Scott, ed. Power Religion: The Selling Out of the Evangelical Church? Chicago: Moody Press, 1992.

________ . Polemics. Issues Etc., 5/4/97A. Cassette.

________ . "How to Be Polemical (Without Being a Downright Nasty Person)." Modern Reformation, September/October 1996, 4-9.

MacArthur, John F. Reckless Faith: When the Church Loses Its Will to Discern. Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1994.

________ . Ashamed of the Gospel: When the Church Becomes Like the World. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1993.

________ . Charismatic Chaos. Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992.

________ . The Master's Plan for the Church. Chicago: Moody Press, 1991.

Matzat, Don. "Apologetics in a Postmodern Age," Issues, Etc. Journal 2, no 5 (Fall 1997): 3-18.

Mayhue, Richard. "Separation in Ministry Relationships." Voice: An Independent Church Journal 72, no. 5 (September/October 1993): 20-21.

McCallum, Dennis, ed. The Death of Truth. Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers, 1996.

McDowell, Josh. "Tolerance and Truth." Moody, March/April 1997, 34, 36.

Moriarity, Michael G. The New Charismatics: A Concerned Voice Responds to Dangerous New Trends. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1992.

Price, Keith A. "The Basis for Christian Fellowship." Database on-line. Available from http://www.mindspring.com/~mmattison/Fellowship.html.

Shelley, Bruce and Marshall Shelley. The Consumer Church: Can Evangelicals Win the World Without Losing Their Souls? Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1992.

Sire, James W. The Universe Next Door: A Basic World View Catalog, 3d ed. Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1997.

Spurgeon, Charles. "The Drift of the Times: Sound the Alarm!" The Baptist Challenge 35, no. 3 (March 1995): 11, 16-17.

Toon, Peter. The End of Liberal Theology: Contemporary Challenges to Evangelical Theology. Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1995.

Veith, Gene Edward, Jr. Postmodern Times: A Christian Guide to Contemporary Thought and Culture. Wheaton: Crossway Books, 1995.

________ . Postmodernism. Issues Etc., 10/12/97A. Cassette.

Wells, David F. No Place for Truth, or, Whatever Happened to Evangelical Theology? Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1993.
 
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MerCYsMIraCLe

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Hey guys, this is kind of random, but this is for boxmaker and all who want to check it out. It is a great short video from the people of CrossTv. There is many many like it and I do recommend that you check out there site and get their videos! There GREAT! Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO5XCbupnHA

and heres a link to something eles that you might want to read...

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/natureofman.html
I cant get the sound to work on the UTube link :(
 
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FreeInChrist2

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Gods Elect,

The “youtube” video link was great. Used to get these sessions on the stupid tube here in Central Illinois every Sunday for a while, for a full hour before going to morning worship. They were only on for about 4 months, but covered the doctrines of grace from the new birth to justification in great detail (except for limited atonement, they kind of skipped it) . They were great studies for as long as they lasted, then they just disappeared, probably because of lack of video sales?

The Nature of Man link (Jeremiahs Project), comparing Gods sovereignty to pelagianism on to semi-plagianism, thus the biblical declaration of salvation by grace alone, by Christ alone, through faith alone (Calvinism) verses mans choice plus works to be saved (Arminianism), was well laid out… nice format. Always worth re-visiting.

BUT…
Unfortunately, the link to the last question What is the answer?
After that beautiful factual presentation, the sponsoring ministry leads sinners right back to a semi-pelagism (Arminian) position of salvation by works. Again as usual, using scripture proofs, out of their proper content and intended use, twisted to represent decisional regeneration, guised as grace, continue to deceive multitudes. How sad.:cry:You know the story.

And what is even more heart breaking, is that multitudes will stand on judgment day so sure of their salvation because they are so sure they have got it right in their hearts and have so loved God, that no matter how much they hear the truth of true salvation, they never question themselves, their ministers or denominations…thus the need for “polemics”, by the grace of Almighty God, as there are friends of God in that camp yet to be found.:pray:

1 Cor 10:12, Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed least he fall.

PS. Stay out of “youtube”.:wave:"Histube" redeems the time.
 
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Boxmaker

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Hey guys, this is kind of random, but this is for boxmaker and all who want to check it out. It is a great short video from the people of CrossTv. There is many many like it and I do recommend that you check out there site and get their videos! There GREAT! Let me know what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO5XCbupnHA

and heres a link to something eles that you might want to read...

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/natureofman.html

Real hopeful that, thanks.
 
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GodsElect

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I cant get the sound to work on the UTube link :(

Well, the verse explained was 2 Peter 3:9 and it explained that the verse was not written to "ALL" men but to Gods elect people. And if you look in your bible at the very begining of 1 Peter its CLEARY an epistle to THE ELECT. Here is the begining of 1 Peter (NKJV)....


1 Peter 1
:

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied....

That whole chapter of 1 Peter was written to the elect people of God.

Now the begining of 2 Peter (NKJV)...


2 Peter 1
:

1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,



So, basically, for those who believe that 2 Peter 3:9 is telling us that God desires ALL (every single man, woman, child in the past, present, future) to come to repentance are just taking things completely out of context as they always seem to do to make it fit their doctrine. And also explains that in the greek language the word "All" or "pas" in greek RARELY means ALL-(every single indiviual on earth)

I hope this helps you and I hope you get your sound fixed, computers are just plain weird sometimes...well, most "all" the time.;) I guess thats really not ALL the time is it?
 
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GodsElect

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So, Boxmaker, I have noticed that you haven't been asking anymore questions recently. I was wondering.... Is it that Boxmaker realizes that God is sovereign over ALL things?, even over his own thoughts and actions and decisions for His Glory alone? According to the perfect will and providence of God?
Has Boxman been given the grace to understand this from scripture?
Does Boxman know that if he truly believes in Christ, that it was a gift from God long before he was born? That it was because of grace that prevailed in his life that once thought it was because of his own free choice that merited favor in the sight of God, the grace giver?
Has Boxman, like the Berean brother, searched the scriptures of truth to see if these things are so?

...or does he count it all as false information and just "those people's" interpretation of the word of God?

You see, when we all die and stand before God, there will be NO misunderstanding the God given truth between brothers in Christ. God does not create confusion and mixed opinions of truth in His children. We all will be of one mind, one spirit, and one TRUTH. We will be ONE FLOCK together with Christ. So there MUST be unity of ONE TRUTH between all of us if we are to call each other brother and search for the truth with the understanding that God has dealt to each one of His children. NOT to be in disagreement over what is truth, and to rebuke those that say they are of God, when it is clear that they do not understand what the bible teaches. And if they are of God, then they will search scripture to see if these things are true.

...May God grant us all the grace to forever stand in spirit and in truth!
 
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Boxmaker

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So, Boxmaker, I have noticed that you haven't been asking anymore questions recently. I was wondering.... Is it that Boxmaker realizes that God is sovereign over ALL things?, even over his own thoughts and actions and decisions for His Glory alone? According to the perfect will and providence of God?
Has Boxman been given the grace to understand this from scripture?
Does Boxman know that if he truly believes in Christ, that it was a gift from God long before he was born? That it was because of grace that prevailed in his life that once thought it was because of his own free choice that merited favor in the sight of God, the grace giver?
Has Boxman, like the Berean brother, searched the scriptures of truth to see if these things are so?

...or does he count it all as false information and just "those people's" interpretation of the word of God?

You see, when we all die and stand before God, there will be NO misunderstanding the God given truth between brothers in Christ. God does not create confusion and mixed opinions of truth in His children. We all will be of one mind, one spirit, and one TRUTH. We will be ONE FLOCK together with Christ. So there MUST be unity of ONE TRUTH between all of us if we are to call each other brother and search for the truth with the understanding that God has dealt to each one of His children. NOT to be in disagreement over what is truth, and to rebuke those that say they are of God, when it is clear that they do not understand what the bible teaches. And if they are of God, then they will search scripture to see if these things are true.

...May God grant us all the grace to forever stand in spirit and in truth!
The youtube video seemed to sum up your interpretation of the truth of scripture. I still find it to be an utterly hopeless interpretation of the scripture. I do not deny that I am looking very hard at some things right now but I am not convinced that God predestined every single thing that happens. Even in Job, God did not tell Satan what he could to to Job, He told Satan what he could not do.

God is sovereign. His will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Even when people, like Jacob, try to help GOd along, God will still work His will inspite of our "help".

But we each have a choice to make and that choice matters. Jesus died on the cross to wash our sins away. If you die without knowing Jesus, you would still stand before Jesus forgiven of all your sins. Hard concept to accept but Jesus was sucessful on the cross. His resurection ushered in the New Covenant. So even though you stand blameless under the Old Covenant, you will stand convicted under the New Coveneant when God asks you, "What did you do with my son?"

God does not have to predestine every little thing that happens to be soverigein. Despite all your protestations otherwise, if God predestines everything God would be the direct auther of sin. There is no escaping that conclusion.

You have answered all my questions. Your answers have not been convecting that you have a lock on the absolute truth.
 
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Boxmaker

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I didn't quite understand what you meant, but, you are very welcome!:thumbsup: Sola Scriptura!
The trouble with computers sometimes is that sarcasim gets lost. I watched your youtube video and found no resaon for hope in it. I find it hard to witness to people by saying God loves you and your saved or not. You wont know i God loves you until you die but hey, wouldn't you like to hear about how much God loves you.

If you can evangalize people knowing that nothing you say or do matters because its all been predestined since before God laid the foundations of the world then go for it.

Paul tells us always be ready to give for a reason for the hope that is within us. The only hope I see in the settled view is the hope that God predestined you to be with Him. There is no hope for anything outside of that because its all settled.
 
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nill

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I haven't been involved in this discussion for something like months, but I would like to ask a question, Boxmaker.

Boxmaker said:
"The only hope I see in the settled view is the hope that God predestined you to be with Him."






Boxmaker, why is this so hopeless in your eyes? The "settled view" is that God wants you saved and will save you. The "settled view" is that God keeps His promises. The "settled view" is that God is faithful to save. Is it so important to you that you create the future you want for yourself, rather than letting God create what He knows is best for you (the "settled view")? Goodness, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were saying that God granting you a sure redemption in Christ was something horrible. You make it sound like predestination is horrible just by virtue of being predestination.

Boxmaker said:
"nothing you say or do matters because its all been predestined"






I gather you'll just keep saying this no matter how many times we beat it into your head that this is wrong and is not what Calvinism teaches.
 
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Boxmaker

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I haven't been involved in this discussion for something like months, but I would like to ask a question, Boxmaker.
Boxmaker said:
"The only hope I see in the settled view is the hope that God predestined you to be with Him."
Boxmaker, why is this so hopeless in your eyes? The "settled view" is that God wants you saved and will save you. The "settled view" is that God keeps His promises. The "settled view" is that God is faithful to save. Is it so important to you that you create the future you want for yourself, rather than letting God create what He knows is best for you (the "settled view")? Goodness, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were saying that God granting you a sure redemption in Christ was something horrible. You make it sound like predestination is horrible just by virtue of being predestination.
Boxmaker said:
"nothing you say or do matters because its all been predestined"
I gather you'll just keep saying this no matter how many times we beat it into your head that this is wrong and is not what Calvinism teaches.
Neal, you are a universalist. The settled view is NOT that God will save everyone, the settled view is that some are predestined to heaven and others are predestined to hell. The settled view says there is nothing you can do as God decided your fate before He laid the foundations of the Earth. Thats the settled view. Your view is universalism and this web site does not allow me to share my opinion of that particular belief.
 
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nill

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Boxmaker said:
"Neal, you are a universalist. The settled view is NOT that God will save everyone, the settled view is that some are predestined to heaven and others are predestined to hell. The settled view says there is nothing you can do as God decided your fate before He laid the foundations of the Earth. Thats the settled view. Your view is universalism and this web site does not allow me to share my opinion of that particular belief."






:eek: Ooookaaaaaaay...? Whatever you say, Boxmaker. :scratch: Perhaps you missed the CALVINIST icon nestled neatly beneath my username? That must've been it...

I suppose I could get out of a discussion just as easily by following suit.

"No, I believe in the doctrines of grace. You are a dank, musty goblin, and this website does not allow me to share my opinion with dank, musty goblins. Plus, goblins only talk in grunts."

Hey, it works! Saying something completely and obviously untrue about the other person and then proceeding as if it were the truth really does help further discussion! :thumbsup:

:doh:
 
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Boxmaker

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Boxmaker said:
"Neal, you are a universalist. The settled view is NOT that God will save everyone, the settled view is that some are predestined to heaven and others are predestined to hell. The settled view says there is nothing you can do as God decided your fate before He laid the foundations of the Earth. Thats the settled view. Your view is universalism and this web site does not allow me to share my opinion of that particular belief."
:eek: Ooookaaaaaaay...? Whatever you say, Boxmaker. :scratch: Perhaps you missed the CALVINIST icon nestled neatly beneath my username? That must've been it...

I suppose I could get out of a discussion just as easily by following suit.

"No, I believe in the doctrines of grace. You are a dank, musty goblin, and this website does not allow me to share my opinion with dank, musty goblins. Plus, goblins only talk in grunts."

Hey, it works! Saying something completely and obviously untrue about the other person and then proceeding as if it were the truth really does help further discussion! :thumbsup:

:doh:
Then I must have miss-read your post. Iread this sentence i your post:
Neal said:
The "settled view" is that God wants you saved and will save you.
The only other folks I have ever seen use a sentence like that are holders of the universal salvation view. While it is a form of Calvinism, it is not, generally, considered the settled view.

So, do you believe God will save everybody or do you bleive that saved and the unsaved were predestined?
 
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nill

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Boxmaker said:
"The only other folks I have ever seen use a sentence like that are holders of the universal salvation view."






They say that everyone will be saved, and that's not what the Bible says. I'm not a universalist.

Boxmaker said:
"While it is a form of Calvinism, it is not, generally, considered the settled view."






I'll admit that I was just using your wording and don't use such a term as the "settled view." I don't even know how you yourself define such a thing. If by settled view, you mean "predestined to live means that you will live even if you stop eating," then you can argue that the Calvinist espouses the "settled view" all you want--doesn't make it true.
 
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GrinningDwarf

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If you can evangalize people knowing that nothing you say or do matters because its all been predestined since before God laid the foundations of the world then go for it.

You really are demonstrating that you still don't get it. Of course preaching matters...it's the means God uses to gather the elect. We don't know who the elect are, and we are commanded in Scripture to preach the Gospel to every creature. End of story.

It's OK, Boxmaker...I understand your difficulties.
In his book Chosen By God, RC Sproul mentions the president of a Presbyterian seminary who took pride in the fact that he was not a Calvinist. The seminary president said, “I am not a Calvinist because I do not believe that God brings some people, kicking and screaming against their wills, into the kingdom, while He excludes others from His kingdom who desperately want to be there.”



I thought Sproul’s response to this was illuminating. “I was astonished when I heard those words. I did not think it possible that the president of a Presbyterian seminary could have such a gross misconception of his own church’s theology. He was reciting a caricature which was as far away from Calvinism as one could get. Calvinism does not teach and has never taught that God brings people kicking and screaming into the kingdom or has ever excluded anyone who wanted to be there.”

This was certainly a surprise to me. That was certainly how I’d always understood Calvinism, even after it was explained to me by Calvinists, and they always seemed to insist that this is indeed the truth, that it is not open to interpretation or modification, and if one doesn’t like it...well...that’s too bad, because that’s just the way it is. Then here was Sproul saying that this was not really Calvinism at all! I decided to take a closer look at what Sproul had to say. I admit that when I started, the deck was stacked in my mind against the Reformed perspective. I was certain Calvinism would turn out to be wrong, because I couldn’t imagine any way salvation could work other than the way I had been taught to interpret the scriptures , but I wanted to have a correct understanding of exactly what I was refuting. If I was going to reject a point of view...and an important view from church history...I wanted to be able to reject the real view and not just the caricature of that view.

So....I read Sproul's works along with Martin Luther and some others, but still came to the conclusion that Calvinism teaches that God drags some people kicking and screaming off to heaven while keeping others out who would otherwise desparatly want to be there. Then I looked back at Sproul's quote and accepted what he said about that being a caricature. Admitting that, in that case, I still didn't really understand their point of view, I gave it another shot. And another. And another. After about two years of seeking, praying, and studying the Scriptures and Reformed thinkers, it made sense and BINGO!! The light went on and it all fell into place and it really does handle the Scriptures more accurately than any other theories viewed through the lens of Enlightenment humanistic philosophies.

If really want to refute our view, at least come to a proper understanding of it...and you havn't demonstrated yet that you properly understand it. Keep trying, though! :D
 
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Boxmaker

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You really are demonstrating that you still don't get it. Of course preaching matters...it's the means God uses to gather the elect. We don't know who the elect are, and we are commanded in Scripture to preach the Gospel to every creature. End of story.
How soveregien can God be if He needs is to do something form Him? That just doesn't sound right.
 
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