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Why do Calvinists....

GodsElect

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Thank you for the truely wonderful display of Christian love and concern. It was heart warming.

If I am guessing right this was supposed to be semi-sarcastic.^

Would be love, to NOT tell you anything at all?

Would it NOT be loving, to type to someone over and over in 100+ posts and try to reason with them that they are in error in their logic and understanding of the truth?

If we weren't concerned at all with you we would have not posted anything at ALL. Now how loving would that be?
not very loving!

If your child was walking out to cross the street, and you saw a BUS coming at great speed down the road, and he did not, would it be very loving to NOT say anything and let him get HIT BY THE BUS!? Or would you SCREAM, "STOP! THERE IS A BUS COMING DOWN THE STREET!!! Or would you run to tackle him out of the way so he didn't get hit by the bus.
Or would you say, "Oh i love you sooo much, you do what you want, and go ahead and get hit by the bus!" thats not loving at all! All I am saying is that No one would have even posted anything to you if they weren't trying to give a message out of love for their neighbor to you.
We hear people that claim and say they love God. So as children and stewards of His calling, we must not let one deny the total sovereignty our God. And tell them the truth no matter how much it may seem to them to be unloving or harsh rebuke.
 
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cygnusx1

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But a spiritually dead person who is physically alive can be made aware of their spiritual death. We hear the Gospel, God opens our eyes to the truth and we respond.

I. First, then, our text implies THAT MEN BY NATURE ARE DEAD.

No being needs to go after life if he has life in himself. The text speaks very strongly when it says, "Ye will not come unto me, that ye might have life." Though it saith it not in words, yet it doth in effect affirm that men need a life more than they have themselves. My hearers, we are all dead unless we have been begotten unto a lively hope. First, we are all of us, by nature, legally dead—"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt die the death," said God to Adam; and though Adam did not die in that moment naturally, he died legally; that is to say death was recorded against him. As soon as, at the Old Bailey, the judge puts on the black cap and pronounces the sentence, the man is reckoned to be dead at law. Though perhaps a month may intervene before he is brought on the scaffold to endure the sentence of the law, yet the law looks upon him as a dead man. It is impossible for him to transact anything. He cannot inherit, he cannot bequeath; he is nothing—he is a dead man. The country considers him not as being alive in it at all. There is an election—he is not asked for his vote because he is considered as dead. He is shut up in his condemned cell, and he is dead. Ah! and ye ungodly sinners who have never had life in Christ, ye are alive this morning, by reprieve, but do ye know that ye are legally dead; that God considers you as such, that in the day when your father Adam touched the fruit, and when you yourselves did sin, God, the Eternal Judge, put on the black cap and condemned you? You talk mightily of your own standing, and goodness, and morality—where is it? Scripture saith, ye are "condemned already." Ye are not to wait to be condemned at the judgment-day—that will be the execution of the sentence—ye are "condemned already." In the moment ye sinned; your names were all written in the black book of justice; every one was then sentenced by God to death, unless he found a substitute, in the person of Christ, for his sins. What would you think if you were to go into the Old Bailey, and see the condemned culprit sitting in his cell, laughing and merry? You would say, "The man is a fool, for he is condemned, and is to be executed; yet how merry he is." Ah! and how foolish is the worldly man, who, while sentence is recorded against him, lives in merriment and mirth! Do you think the sentence of God is of no effect? Thinkest thou that thy sin which is written with an iron pen on the rocks for ever hath no horrors in it? God hath said thou art condemned already. If thou wouldst but feel this, it would mingle bitters in thy sweet cups of joy; thy dances would be stopped, thy laughter quenched in sighing, if thou wouldst recollect that thou art condemned already. We ought all to weep, if we lay this to our souls: that by nature we have no life in God's sight; we are actually, positively condemned; death is recorded against us, and we are considered in ourselves now, in God's sight, as much dead as if we were actually cast into hell; we are condemned here by sin, we do not yet suffer the penalty of it, but it is written against us, and we are legally dead, nor can we find life unless we find legal life in the person of Christ, of which more by-and-by.
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But, besides being legally dead, we are also spiritually dead. For not only did the sentence pass in the book, but it passed in the heart; it entered the conscience; it operated on the soul, on the judgment, on the imagination, and on everything. "In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die," was not only fulfilled by the sentence recorded, but by something which took place in Adam. Just as, in a certain moment, when this body shall die, the blood stops, the pulse ceases, the breath no longer comes from the lungs, so in the day that Adam did eat that fruit his soul died; his imagination lost its mighty power to climb into celestial things and see heaven, his will lost its power always to choose that which is good, his judgment lost all ability to judge between right and wrong decidedly and infallibly, though something was retained in conscience; his memory became tainted, liable to hold evil things, and let righteous things glide away; every power of him ceased as to its moral vitality. Goodness was the vitality of his powers—that departed. Virtue, holiness, integrity, these were the life of man; but when these departed man became dead. And now, every man, so far as spiritual things are concerned, is "dead in trespasses and sins" spiritually. Nor is the soul less dead in a carnal man, than the body is when committed to the grave; it is actually and positively dead—not by a metaphor, for Paul speaketh not in metaphor, when he affirms, "You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins." But my hearers, again, I would I could preach to your hearts concerning this subject. It was bad enough when I described death as having been recorded; but now I speak of it as having actually taken place in your hearts. Ye are not what ye once were; ye are not what ye were in Adam, not what ye were created. Man was made pure and holy. Ye are not the perfect creatures of which some boast; ye are altogether fallen, ye have gone out of the way, ye have become corrupt and filthy. Oh! listen not to the siren song of those who tell you of your moral dignity, and your mighty elevation in matters of salvation. Ye are not perfect; that great word, "ruin," is written on your heart; and death is stamped upon your spirit. Do not conceive, O moral man, that thou wilt be able to stand before God in thy morality, for thou art nothing but a carcass embalmed in legality, a corpse arrayed in some fine robes, but still corrupt in God's sight. And think not, O thou possessor of natural religion! that thou mayest by thine own might and power make thyself acceptable to God. Why, man! thou art dead! and thou mayest array the dead as gloriously as thou pleasest, but still it would be a solemn mockery. There lieth queen Cleopatra—put the crown upon her head, deck her in royal robes, let her sit in state; but what a cold chill runs through you when you pass by her. She is fair now, even in her death—but how horrible it is to stand by the side even of a dead queen, celebrated for her majestic beauty! So you may be glorious in your beauty, fair, and amiable, and lovely; you put the crown of honesty upon your head, and wear about you all the garments of uprightness, but unless God has quickened thee, O man! unless the Spirit has had dealings with thy soul, thou art in God's sight as obnoxious as the chilly corpse is to thyself. Thou wouldst not choose to live with a corpse sitting at thy table; nor doth God love that thou shouldst be in his sight. He is angry with thee every day, for thou art in sin—thou art in death. Oh! believe this; take it to thy soul; appropriate it, for it is most true that thou art dead, spiritually as well as legally.
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The third kind of death is the consummation of the other two. It is eternal death. It is the execution of the legal sentence; it is the consummation of the spiritual death. Eternal death is the death of the soul; it takes place after the body has been laid in the grave, after the soul has departed from it. If legal death be terrible, it is because of its consequences; and if spiritual death be dreadful, it is because of that which shall succeed it. The two deaths of which we have spoken are the roots, and that death which is to come is the flower thereof. Oh! had I words that I might this morning attempt to depict to you what eternal death is. The soul has come before its Maker; the book has been opened; the sentence has been uttered; "Depart ye cursed" has shaken the universe, and made the very spheres dim with the frown of the Creator; the soul has departed to the depths where it is to dwell with others in eternal death. Oh! how horrible is its position now. Its bed is a bed of flame; the sights it sees are murdering ones that affright its spirit;. the sounds it hears are shrieks, and wails, and moans, and groans; all that its body knows is the infliction of miserable pain! It has the possession of unutterable woe, of unmitigated misery. The soul looks up. Hope is extinct—it is gone. It looks downward in dread and fear; remorse hath possessed its soul. It looks on the right hand—and the adamantine walls of fate keep it within its limits of torture. It looks on the left—and there the rampart of blazing fire forbids the scaling ladder of e'en a dreamy speculation of escape. It looks within and seeks for consolation there, but a gnawing worm hath entered into the soul. It looks about it—it has no friends to aid, no comforters, but tormentors in abundance. It knoweth nought of hope of deliverance; it hath heard the everlasting key of destiny turning in its awful wards, and it hath seen God take that key and hurl it down into the depth of eternity never to be found again. It hopeth not; it knoweth no escape; it guesseth not of deliverance; it pants for death, but death is too much its foe to be there; it longs that non-existence would swallow it up, but this eternal death is worse than annihilation. It pants for extermination as the laborer for his Sabbath; it longs that it might be swallowed up in nothingness just as would the galley slave long for freedom, but it cometh not—it is eternally dead. When eternity shall have rolled round multitudes of its everlasting cycles it shall still be dead. Forever knoweth no end; eternity cannot be spelled except in eternity. Still the soul seeth written o'er its head, "Thou art damned forever." It heareth howlings that are to be perpetual; it seeth flames which are unquenchable; it knoweth pains that are unmitigated; it hears a sentence that rolls not like the thunder of earth which soon is hushed—but onward, onward, onward, shaking the echoes of eternity—making thousands of years shake again with the horrid thunder of its dreadful sound—"Depart! depart! depart! ye cursed!" This is the eternal death.
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II. Secondly, IN CHRIST JESUS THERE IS LIFE,

for he says: "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life." There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ. We will show you there are three kinds of life in Christ, as there are three kinds of death.
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First there is legal life in Christ. Just as every man by nature considered in Adam had a sentence of condemnation passed on him in the moment of Adam's sin, and more especially in the moment of his own first transgression, so I, if I be a believer, and you, if you trust in Christ, have had a legal sentence of acquittal passed on us through what Jesus Christ has done. O condemned sinner! Thou mayest be sitting this morning condemned like the prisoner in Newgate; but ere this day has passed away thou mayest be as clear from guilt as the angels above. There is such a thing as legal life in Christ, and, blessed be God! some of us enjoy it. We know our sins are pardoned because Christ suffered punishment for them; we know that we never can be punished ourselves, for Christ suffered in our stead. The Passover is slain for us; the lintel and door-post have been sprinkled, and the destroying angel can never touch us. For us there is no hell, although it blaze with terrible flame. Let Tophet be prepared of old, let its pile be wood and much smoke, we never can come there—Christ died for us, in our stead. What if there be racks of horrid torture? What if there be a sentence producing most horrible reverberations of thundering sounds? Yet neither rack, nor dungeon, nor thunder, are for us! In Christ Jesus we are now delivered. "There is therefore NOW no condemnation unto us who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
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Sinner! Art thou legally condemned this morning? Dost thou feel that? Then, let me tell thee that faith in Christ will give thee a knowledge of thy legal acquittal. Beloved, it is no fancy that we are condemned for our sins, it is a reality. So, it is no fancy we are acquitted, it is a reality. A man about to be hanged, if he received a full pardon would feel it a great reality. He would say, "I have a full pardon; I cannot be touched now." That is just how I feel.

"Now freed from sin I walk at large,
The Saviour's blood's my full discharge,
At his dear feet content I lay,
A sinner saved, and homage pay."
Brethren, we have gained legal life in Christ, and such legal life that we cannot lose it. The sentence has gone against us once—now it has gone out for us. It is written, "THERE IS NOW NO CONDEMNATION," and that now will do as well for me in fifty years as it does now. Whatever time we live it will still be written, "There is therefore, now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
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Then, secondly, there is spiritual life in Christ Jesus. As the man is spiritually dead, God has spiritual life for him, for there is not a need which is not supplied by Jesus, there is not an emptiness in the heart which Christ cannot fill; there is not a desolation which he cannot people, there is not a desert which he cannot make to blossom as the rose. O ye dead sinners! spiritually dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, for we have seen—yes! these eyes have seen—the dead live again; we have known the man whose soul was utterly corrupt, by the power of God seek after righteousness; we have known the man whose views were carnal, whose lusts were mighty, whose passions were strong, suddenly, by irresistible might from heaven, consecrate himself to Christ, and become a child of Jesus. We know that there is life in Christ Jesus, of a spiritual order; yea, more, we ourselves, in our own persons, have felt that there is spiritual life. Well can we remember when we sat in the house of prayer, as dead as the very seat on which we sat. We had listened for a long, long while to the sound of the gospel, but no effect followed, when suddenly, as if our ears had been opened by the fingers of some mighty angel, a sound entered into our heart. We thought we heard Jesus saying, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." An irresistible hand put itself on our heart and crushed a prayer out of it. We never had a prayer before like that. We cried, "O God! have mercy upon me a sinner." Some of us for months felt a hand pressing us as if we had been grasped in a vice, and our souls bled drops of anguish. That misery was a sign of coming life. Persons when they are being drowned do not feel the pain so much as while they are being restored. Oh! we recollect those pains, those groans, that living strife that our soul had when it came to Christ. Ah! we can recollect the giving of our spiritual life as easily as could a man his restoration from the grave. We can suppose Lazarus to have remembered his resurrection, though not all the circumstances of it. So we, although we have forgotten a great deal, do recollect our giving ourselves to Christ. We can say to every sinner, however dead, there is life in Christ Jesus, though you may be rotten and corrupt in your grave. He who hath raised Lazarus hath raised us; and he can say, even to you, "Lazarus! come forth."
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In the third place, there is eternal life in Christ Jesus. And, oh! if eternal death be terrible, eternal life is blessed; for he has said, "Where I am there shall my people be." "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given unto me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory." "I give unto my sheep eternal life, and they shall never perish." Now, any Arminian that would preach from that text must buy a pair of India rubber lips, for I am sure he would need to stretch his mouth amazingly; he would never be able to speak the whole truth without winding about in a most mysterious manner. Eternal life—not a life which they are to lose, but eternal life. If I lost life in Adam I gained it in Christ; if I lost myself for ever I find myself for ever in Jesus Christ. Eternal life! Oh blessed thought! Our eyes will sparkle with joy and our souls bum with ecstasy in the thought that we have eternal life. Be quenched ye stars! let God put his finger on you—but my soul will live in bliss and joy. Put out thine eye O sun!—but mine eye shall "see the king in his beauty" when thine eye shall no more make the green earth laugh. And moon, be thou turned into blood!—but my blood shall ne'er be turned to nothingness; this spirit shall exist when thou hast ceased to be. And thou great world! thou mayest all subside, just as a moment's foam subsides upon the wave that bears it—but I have eternal life. O time! thou mayest see giant mountains dead and hidden in their graves; thou mayest see the stars like figs too ripe, falling from the tree, but thou shalt never, never see my spirit dead.



http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0052.htm
 
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Boxmaker

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If I am guessing right this was supposed to be semi-sarcastic.^

Would be love, to NOT tell you anything at all?

Would it NOT be loving, to type to someone over and over in 100+ posts and try to reason with them that they are in error in their logic and understanding of the truth?

If we weren't concerned at all with you we would have not posted anything at ALL. Now how loving would that be?
not very loving!

If your child was walking out to cross the street, and you saw a BUS coming at great speed down the road, and he did not, would it be very loving to NOT say anything and let him get HIT BY THE BUS!? Or would you SCREAM, "STOP! THERE IS A BUS COMING DOWN THE STREET!!! Or would you run to tackle him out of the way so he didn't get hit by the bus.
Or would you say, "Oh i love you sooo much, you do what you want, and go ahead and get hit by the bus!" thats not loving at all! All I am saying is that No one would have even posted anything to you if they weren't trying to give a message out of love for their neighbor to you.
We hear people that claim and say they love God. So as children and stewards of His calling, we must not let one deny the total sovereignty our God. And tell them the truth no matter how much it may seem to them to be unloving or harsh rebuke.

Yeah, it was. I just find it interesting that you are so willing to judge me unsaved over an issues that is not central to salvation. Once you determined that I was not saved you seemed to quickly decide that you had done everything that you could and walked away. Afterall, what ever happens to me has been predestined and of no concern to you. That is what I got from your posts and it is the problem I have with Calvinism, it seeming lack of caring beyond a point.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Anyway, I shall not take up any more of your time. God be with you and may He bless you and your family.
 
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heymikey80

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I stand by what I said. There is a difference between physical death and spiritual death. While you are physically alive, God can make known to you that His kingdon awaits you. It is the first step in God's plan to draw you to Him. He lets you know that there is much a much better plan for your life if you will trust Him. When you do, you are raised from that spiritual death to life everlasting with Him.
I'm unaware where this is stated as happening prior to spiritual birth. There are admittedly a number of places where Jesus and Paul talk about the spiritually-dead person not being aware of this better plan for their life, e.g., 1 Cor 1:18,23-24: "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ... we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
This physical body God gave me can respond to God. He planned it that way. We have one chance in this short physical existance to come to Jesus. God made us so that we could.
Do you really think that your physical body's response to God means anything to Him? Why would it? How might you get beyond a work-for-salvation scheme on that kind of theology? Ultimately you're now saying your physical response is necessary for God to save you. Yet salvation is not of actions (Ep 2:8-10) but for actions.
 
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Boxmaker

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I'm unaware where this is stated as happening prior to spiritual birth. There are admittedly a number of places where Jesus and Paul talk about the spiritually-dead person not being aware of this better plan for their life, e.g., 1 Cor 1:18,23-24: "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ... we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
When God draws somebody to Him, He reveals to them that He has a better plan. An unbeliever may pick up a Bible and start reading. As they read they begin, we hope, to understand that God does have abetter plan for them. God is drawing them near and making them aware of the potential.

Do you really think that your physical body's response to God means anything to Him? Why would it? How might you get beyond a work-for-salvation scheme on that kind of theology? Ultimately you're now saying your physical response is necessary for God to save you. Yet salvation is not of actions (Ep 2:8-10) but for actions.
It is a confession of faith. Works int he Bible as described by Jesus and the apostles are works of charity, not confessions of faith. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. It is not a work, it is a proclimation of faith.
 
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heymikey80

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When God draws somebody to Him, He reveals to them that He has a better plan. An unbeliever may pick up a Bible and start reading. As they read they begin, we hope, to understand that God does have abetter plan for them. God is drawing them near and making them aware of the potential.
That revelation is birth in the Spirit, or it's nothing. "Unless you're born again no one can see the Kingdom of God" Jn 3:3

It's not understanding that would lead them to the Savior. It's the Spirit of God. "flesh gives birth to flesh, spirit gives birth to spirit" (Jn 3:6). It's not "Flesh gives birth to spirit." You don't have physical faculties that bring about a spiritual birth. There are no such faculties.
It is a confession of faith. Works int he Bible as described by Jesus and the apostles are works of charity, not confessions of faith. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, you will be saved. It is not a work, it is a proclimation of faith.
I realize Pharisees have been overstigmatized. A Pharisee in the First Century would be right in there agreeing with you. He'd say that his works are a proclamation of his faith, and that God acknowledges that by saving him. Pharisees didn't think their works would accomplish something that actually deserved salvation. They but hoped to provoke God to act on their behalf.

That's the origin of "I thank God I'm not like that tax collector over there." It's not primarily a declaration that the Pharisee has arrived. It's primarily a self-declaration that the Pharisee can somehow gain God's attention.

And that's not different from what you're saying, Boxmaker. If salvation results from this proclamation that gets God's attention, then it is a work that saves you, much the same. It's just an appeal to God's pity instead of God's esteem.

Jesus' response was pointed, even prickly, about this idea (Mt 23). Paul's was that God chooses on His own, not from us (Rom 9).
 
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GodsElect

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Boxmaker, If you have questions for Calvinists, ask them and you shall receive an answer, whether you like the answers you get or not. But I have read you trying to answer questions from non-calvinist to calvinists. The questions are for calvinists wanting an answer from Calvinists. Shouldn't you be answering questions in the "Ask an Arminian" threads? You are not enlightening anyone here. No one wants to hear the "You gotta do something (works) or you wont be saved" doctrines you hold so dear. Please, it is obvious that you do not agree with what the bible teaches on how one is enlightened by the Holy Spirit before faith, not of works, but of Him who CALLS. So dont try to answer and give the false answers that you are trying to convey to ones who are looking for the correct answers and the TRUTH of God's word.

I pray that you will understand Jesus when He says in John 10...

"14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

That's right! He laid down His life for His Sheep.

He WILL bring all of His sheep from all different walks of life to be ONE FLOCK.

And His sheep WILL hear His voice. And His sheep WILL come to Him at the sound of His voice. They WILL know His Call and take heed to it and they WILL be one flock.

With statements like this....

Boxmaker states.....
As they read they begin, we hope?, to understand that God does have abetter plan for them. God is drawing them near and making them aware of the potential.


His sheep WILL hear his voice and understand and Heed the call of their Shepherd. There is NO HOPING about it! They WILL hear if they are truly being drawn by God to the Son, our Savior! How dare you sit and limit our Gods awsome sovereignty to just a mere HOPE and POTENTIAL in doing what He intends to do in the life of the unbeliever. You just continue to deny the awsome power of the Holy Spirit my friend! Please, dont litter the questioning minds, those who truly seek to find solid biblical answers, with your non-biblical falsehoods and doctrines of man.
 
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FreeInChrist2

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Quotes By BOXMAKER
There is a difference between physical death and spiritual death.
You have used the statement before, elsewhere, “you merely use the physical to explain the spiritual”. But you have not yet seen the problem is not the physical, it is spiritual deadness, obviously, we are physically alive and not physically dead, but at birth man is spiritually dead and not spiritually alive. You can use the physical to explain the spiritual but you can’t cross them over to include each other.

While you are physically alive, God can make known to you that His kingdom awaits you.
Not while spiritually dead!…case in point above.

If you are saying that while man is physically alive, and before he physically dies, he can be made alive by the Spirit of God through Christ, then true…and he/she most certainly will be made alive if God has chosen him/her from the foundation of the world to do so.

If you mean while physically alive, yet spiritually dead, and God gives you an opportunity to free yourself from your spiritual dead state, but its your choice, then you are still spiritually dead.

But if you mean while you were spiritually dead you were able to see the glorious spiritual glory that awaits you, then you were spiritually made alive by the grace of God, and he didn’t give you a choice about that.

Now rejoice in the finished work of Christ on the cross and thank Him that He didn’t give you a choice to reject Him. But by your own admission of choice and free-will credit for any portion of salvation and work on your behalf, you do reject Him, just like the Jews and any other works righteousness religion or denomination, and have not submitted to the will of Him who created you. Why must you continue to hang on to your will. Kill it! It’s a fruit of the Spirit! He who looses his life will find it and he who finds his life will loose it.

It is the first step in God's plan to draw you to Him.
No this is not the first step, the first step was before the foundation of the world, eternity past. His drawing a person is the outworking of His eternal plan of redemption in the present, which God sits in the future looking back at all His completed works. Thus He encompasses all eternity past, present & future, and the number of those saved are certainly fixed.

What…do you think? God is sitting in the Heavens with His hands tied behind His back thinking…ooohhh, I hope today is a better day and some one will choose me. Boy I just can’t get any one to believe in me. I sure do hope they will give me a chance. OOppps Johnny fell in the creek and I didn’t plan that so I guess I have to come up with a different plan for Johnny. Or, I didn’t plan for Johnny to choose me, but he did it any way, so I guess I’ll have change my plans again and save him against my own will. What a fickle god that would be…a god you couldn’t trust, for he would be a puppet to the will of the creatures, always changing his mind, being tossed to and fro by every wind of mans choices & decisions.

He lets you know that there is much a much better plan for your life if you will trust Him.
A spiritually dead person can’t be let known anything spiritually, he’s spiritually dead. So just what is this better plan for your life according to your understanding? And according to this statement, only if you will trust him – conditional upon you again

When you do, you are raised from that spiritual death to life everlasting with Him.
It’s…When Christ does / did! Then, you are raised from that spiritual death to life everlasting with Him. Receive it! Believe it! Again a conditional statement upon you.

This physical body God gave me can respond to God.
No it can’t, until it is made spiritually alive. Besides that, what’s God going to say…WOW I have to have that physical body in my kingdom, do you see how it responded to Me! And besides that…God would have to say…WOW, he didn’t even have to trust My Son, he responded all by himself, after all I only had to prick his heart a little, I must have this man in my kingdom! Wow, look at that He let me be His god.

He planned it that way. We have one chance in this short physical existence to come to Jesus.
It’s not a chance! Who wants a god of chance? Don’t you want a God of …IT’S DONE!

God made us so that we could.
Adam made it so we couldn’t. There is nothing you can do physically or spiritually pleasing in God’s sight that is going to make Him do flips over you. He looks to His Son to please Him for us. On judgment day He will not look to His children and judge them against His law, but will look to the One whom fulfilled it perfectly…that is the standard…PERFECT!

Afterall, what ever happens to me has been predestined and of no concern to you. That is what I got from your posts and it is the problem I have with Calvinism, it seeming lack of caring beyond a point.
No one can make you believe, we are only commanded to preach the truth of the gospel, not convince you, that’s the Spirits work. The pressure is not on us to convert or save you, it is the work of the Spirit to break your will into submission, and if you are His child, He will.

Dan 4:35 All the peoples of the earth
are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: "What have you done?"

Pslm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Matt 5: 3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Do you too persecute us for trying to bring you to the truth? Do you also persecute the prophets?

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Is your mouth confessing to all your neighbors (the world)? Christ died for sinners, the debt has been fully satisfied, there is nothing you can do to make it better, BUT only if YOU, YOU, YOU and You and You use your free-will, make a choice, a decision, repent, or get baptized, or do anything, then and only then did he really did do that for you? But if you don’t take the next step then you’ll go to hell! Is that your witness to the world?

I just find it interesting that you are so willing to judge me unsaved over an issues that is not central to salvation
These issues are most central and our concern is for your salvation, you concern is that you had to do something in order to have it, and thus you will be denied entrance into heaven, suffering hell for eternity.

We must judge, for how else can we know not to throw pearls before swine unless we judge whether one has the Spirit of Christ or not? How would we know whether or not to witness to someone?

1 Cor 6:1If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

You make a judgment against the truth of Gods declaration of His finished work of salvation in Christ! Calling it a salvation of chance by choice.

Are you not judging that we are judging?

Once you determined that I was not saved you seemed to quickly decide that you had done everything that you could and walked away
As we are commanded to.

2 John 7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

Do you think we want to share in your evil teachings?

Thank you for the truly wonderful display of Christian love and concern. It was heart warming.
I have seen nothing but concern for you.

Prov 17:10 Rebuke is more effective for a wise man
Than a hundred blows on a fool.

Prov 9:8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you;
Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.

Prov 27:5 Open rebuke is better
Than love carefully concealed.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
(Again, Just what are you confessing? Salvation because of your decision or Gods justification by Christ alone?)

He even tells you how to enter His Kingdom
So just and how do you enter His kingdom according to your understanding. Here's your chance to save us from the God who alrady did save us? Convince us that the scriptures and we are wrong in all that we have shared with you. Perhaps we need to follow you.

[FONT=&quot]Heb 12:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, 13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.
[/FONT]
 
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TempleBuilder

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Whether God is in control of of all things or not is hard to deduce even from the Scriptures for fine men and women over the years have come to no clear conclusion. Our minds have trouble understanding God's.

A clear thing is this: That God's people live for him and live with love toward all people. That we experience the transforming power of God in such a way that we live like the Savior whether we understand the arguments of doctrines of various denominations. God is love and those in him love.
 
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RepentantSinner

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So the question is:

Who chooses who? Right?
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE(Past Tense) YOU and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

(I put this in here just as an example of how the word is used. Past tense would indicat something that is already been done.)



Daniel 4:25


25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.


Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.



Type the words chose and choose in a keyword search on biblegateway.com and read each verse and in its context. I don't mean to speak loudly. However easy this is to understand it is a true testament to the ultimate power of God and His will to open some people's heart to His truths and how He hardens the hearts of others. Once you understand that he chooses you and you didn't choose Him until you had been GIVEN new life FIRST to make the positve choice, the whole Bible makes sense.

When someone talks of their free will as a professed Christian and boast upon how they chose God and somehow DESERVE eternal life by their choice, I am saddened because, based on God's word they will inherit Hell for eternity. He will declare "Depart from Me, I never knew you!" (Matt. 7:23) and we all know there is no easy way to tell someone based on their beliefs that they are going to Hell. On the other hand is it NOT love to tell them in the first place? Most don't listen because they are to prideful. Saying..."I'm not wrong! Its what I've been taught my whole life! My parents raised me that way! What about my free will?" These are a lot of the pityful and pridefull excuses I hear too many times by those who profess the name of Christ. Anyway its late and I can barley type as you can tell. I pray that God opens your heart to his true word.

BoxMaker, Tell me how these verses support your interpretation of man's choice of choosing God in order to be saved? Remember scripture DOES NOT CONTRADICT scripture. So please don't give us other scripture that may seem to contradict these verses, because they don't. Please explain how these verses support man's choice to choose God of his own free choice.
 
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Boxmaker

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So the question is:

Who chooses who? Right?
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE(Past Tense) YOU and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

(I put this in here just as an example of how the word is used. Past tense would indicat something that is already been done.)



Daniel 4:25


25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.


Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.



Type the words chose and choose in a keyword search on biblegateway.com and read each verse and in its context. I don't mean to speak loudly. However easy this is to understand it is a true testament to the ultimate power of God and His will to open some people's heart to His truths and how He hardens the hearts of others. Once you understand that he chooses you and you didn't choose Him until you had been GIVEN new life FIRST to make the positve choice, the whole Bible makes sense.

When someone talks of their free will as a professed Christian and boast upon how they chose God and somehow DESERVE eternal life by their choice, I am saddened because, based on God's word they will inherit Hell for eternity. He will declare "Depart from Me, I never knew you!" (Matt. 7:23) and we all know there is no easy way to tell someone based on their beliefs that they are going to Hell. On the other hand is it NOT love to tell them in the first place? Most don't listen because they are to prideful. Saying..."I'm not wrong! Its what I've been taught my whole life! My parents raised me that way! What about my free will?" These are a lot of the pityful and pridefull excuses I hear too many times by those who profess the name of Christ. Anyway its late and I can barley type as you can tell. I pray that God opens your heart to his true word.

BoxMaker, Tell me how these verses support your interpretation of man's choice of choosing God in order to be saved? Remember scripture DOES NOT CONTRADICT scripture. So please don't give us other scripture that may seem to contradict these verses, because they don't. Please explain how these verses support man's choice to choose God of his own free choice.

Ouch! My ears hurt!
 
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Boxmaker

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Well, it is probably time to leave this thread. It is not going anywhere. I agree with
TempleBuilder said:
Whether God is in control of of all things or not is hard to deduce even from the Scriptures for fine men and women over the years have come to no clear conclusion. Our minds have trouble understanding God's.

A clear thing is this: That God's people live for him and live with love toward all people. That we experience the transforming power of God in such a way that we live like the Savior whether we understand the arguments of doctrines of various denominations. God is love and those in him love.
I have seen some good arguments on this thread for predestination. I have seen or heard nothing that would lead me to seek out a church that teachs reformed theology. Why? It is the tone in which the arguments have been offered. That tone is not the tone I hear in Christ's words in the bible.

So, may the peace of Chirst be with you all. You are my brothers and sisters in Chirst!
 
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cygnusx1

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Well, it is probably time to leave this thread. It is not going anywhere. I agree with

I have seen some good arguments on this thread for predestination. I have seen or heard nothing that would lead me to seek out a church that teachs reformed theology. Why? It is the tone in which the arguments have been offered. That tone is not the tone I hear in Christ's words in the bible.

So, may the peace of Chirst be with you all. You are my brothers and sisters in Chirst!

forgive us Boxmaker , we are working on the tone ... it takes time to sing a sweet song when someone stamps on your foot ! :D :hug:
 
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GodsElect

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Well, it is probably time to leave this thread. It is not going anywhere. I agree with

I have seen some good arguments on this thread for predestination. I have seen or heard nothing that would lead me to seek out a church that teachs reformed theology. Why? It is the tone in which the arguments have been offered. That tone is not the tone I hear in Christ's words in the bible.

So, may the peace of Chirst be with you all. You are my brothers and sisters in Chirst!

Yes, Go ahead and let your PRIDE take hold of you more and let it make the decisions for you. Boxmaker, It is because of you PRIDE that keeps you from turning from your "man's choice" centered views.
And I have seen no biblical argument from you that makes sense to me or anyone. But all I have seen and read is what YOU THINK that the bible is saying, and that too comes from PRIDE. The reason I believe that you are not hearing anything is because you are deaf and blind still and PRIDE will not ALLOW you to accept the truth.

I don't come to give you pretty words covered with cherries and sprinkles, to make you feel better about the fact that you deny the very Sovereignty of God, in which you claim to believe, in almost every post that you have made. So yes you will get SHARP REBUKE, and if you are a wise man then you would love the man who corrects you when you are clearly in error. FreeinChrist2 pointed this verse out to you and it puts this situation in the context of which we are in.

Prov 9:8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you;
Rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.

And why do you run from us and do not answer the question that Repentantsinner asks? How would YOU interpret the verses that he has shown you? Are you going to run and not try to answer these questions? Don't let your PRIDE lead you to error. If you cannot stand us, then you may be well on your way.
 
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McWilliams

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Dont ever follow a 'tone' my friend! Always follow the truth of scripture and submit to the Lord Jesus Christ! I pray our sweet Lord will guide you into all of HIs truth and bless your life!
Did you find here the answers of truth? Is that not what you want to hear?
 
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Boxmaker

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Dont ever follow a 'tone' my friend! Always follow the truth of scripture and submit to the Lord Jesus Christ! I pray our sweet Lord will guide you into all of HIs truth and bless your life!
Did you find here the answers of truth? Is that not what you want to hear?
I did not find the answeres of truth here. I found things to look into in more detail. I did not find hope here. I found some scriptures that I will study more.

As for tone... Tone conveys much about what a person feels about what they believe. People were more concerned that faith come in only one way that they judge anybody who differes with that view as unsaved. Through tone I heard rules about how one must believe instead of hope in why one believes.

That is onlt my opinion. I may well be wrong about how a person comes to faith. It would not be the first nor the last time I was wrong.

In the mean time, Jesus is my lord and savior. He has redeemed me to my heavenly father. I thank Hima nd Praise Him for His love for me.
 
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FreeInChrist2

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Originally posted by Temple Builder
Whether God is in control of all things or not, is hard to deduce, even from the Scriptures, for fine men and women, over the years, have come to no clear conclusion.
Correct…Fine men and women have no clear conclusions…they don’t. But sinners…all Gods elect children do come to true and very clear conclusions from scripture alone, by the helper, the Holy Spirit.

Proofs…
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

John 10:7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

John 17:9 “I pray for them (the sheep). I do not pray for the world (goats) but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

2 John 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

BELIEVED WHAT?
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.


Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.

Our minds have trouble understanding God's.
1 Cor 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

A clear thing is this: That God's people live for him
Do you live for Him…Do you sin? What side does sin go on… your good side or your evil side? Are you saying Christ is evil? So when you sin are you living for Him or self?

and live with love toward all people.
Are you more loving than God? Does God love all people in an eternal saving way? Certianly He loves all His creation and creatures alike and supplies their every need on this earth. But is God loving those whom He sends to hell, or hating them? What kind of love is that? So are you commanded to love better than God? Do you love the sinner but hate the sin? Does God send the sin or the sinner to hell?

That we experience the transforming power of[God
Yes there is transforming power, but are you transforming to be saved …or because you are saved you are being transformed?

in such a way that we live like the Savior
Do you really live like Christ…sinless and perfect? Righteous in judgment and mighty in strength? So will God save you if you can’t live like the Savior? Who sets the standard? What happens if you fail? Do you live like the Savior that you may be saved or did the Savior live that you are saved?

whether we understand the arguments of doctrines of various denominations.
This not about the doctrines of various of denominations…I believe scripture calls it the doctrines of men/demons,…but about the doctrines of God and His grace alone…according to Christ alone…from scripture alone. Not what the visible church teaches….so the question is, is this what your church teaches, doctrines of demons or doctrines of God?

God is love
Is that all God is, is love? How about His justice? Or His righteousness, His benevolence, His mercifulness, His faithfulness, His wrathfulness, His Forgiveness, His omniscience? Isn’t God’s love only a (Oh… I can’t think of the word/term I looking for right now…help me my brothers) portion of who He is, a part of His character, His Spirit? How many times will you let me smack you in the cheek? Until their both broke?

and those in him love.
So your just all love I guess…right? So if you are in Him that means you love me right? But how much do you love me? Better then Him? Do you love me enough to pay all my debt? Can you send me $50.000.00, I really need it? Ok, maybe you don’t love me that much…how about $25,000.00…OK, OK, just love me a $1000.00. Let me know when you can send it and I’ll get you my address, you still love me don’t you?

So let me ask you a final question or two. If you can’t come to “no clear conclusions” can you be clear whether you are even saved? I mean where does your assurance of salvation come from? If there is not unity in understanding, belief and faith, of how we are saved, according to scripture, can we be in unity with the Father and the Son? If these things are not important to you, nor have your ever asked these questions because you want to know the truth (or even because you want to argue against the truth, which I don’t really recommend, least you be arguing against God) then you really haven’t experienced anything of the transforming power of God. There are many good men and women who turn up at the gates of hell, wouldn’t you agree? Is there absolute truth, the same truth for everyone? How do you really know if you are loving God?

So just how are we saved?...If you would be so kind as to enlighten us.

Just Asking?

[FONT=&quot]FreeInChrist2[/FONT]
 
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