Why do Arminians...

EmSw · May 10, 2014

Hammster said:
Whether or not they did is irrelevant. Whether or not they have grounds to boast is relevant.

Let me ask you, why are you saved when so many others who have also heard the same gospel are not saved?

Who doesn't have grounds to boast? Anyone of the Reformed belief surely has grounds to boast because God chose them over others. So I say it's not relevant whether or not one has grounds to boast, for we all have grounds to boast, but, it's very relevant whether we choose to boast or not.

I am saved because I chose to hear and obey the ONE who has the words of eternal life (John 6:68).

sdowney717 · May 10, 2014

EmSw said:
Who doesn't have grounds to boast? Anyone of the Reformed belief surely has grounds to boast because God chose them over others. So I say it's not relevant whether or not one has grounds to boast, for we all have grounds to boast, but, it's very relevant whether we choose to boast or not.

I am saved because I chose to hear and obey the ONE who has the words of eternal life (John 6:68).

I question your heart if you say you or anyone has grounds for boasting.
God saves by grace, not of ourselves being a gift.
Christians are His workmanship doing good works created beforehand for them to walk in.

So you consider your so blessed in yourself apparently choosing for God and have reason to boast, so go ahead then boast. Your so much smarter or a better learner, so then boast away. you have saved yourself be believing, it was after all you seeking for and finding God and that God owes you eternal life, you earned it..

gmm4Jesus · May 10, 2014

sdowney, the point is that both Calvinists and Arminians could manufacture reason to boast if they desired.

EmSw · May 10, 2014

sdowney717 said:
I question your heart if you say you or anyone has grounds for boasting.
God saves by grace, not of ourselves being a gift.
Christians are His workmanship doing good works created beforehand for them to walk in.

No need to question my heart; I have One who searches my heart and knows what lies within.

As I said before, everyone, and that includes you and me, can find grounds for boasting. Even when one tries to debase or humble themselves in that they are nothing, can boast of this condition.

sdowney717 said:
So you consider your so blessed in yourself apparently choosing for God and have reason to boast, so go ahead then boast. Your so much smarter or a better learner, so then boast away. you have saved yourself be believing, it was after all you seeking for and finding God and that God owes you eternal life, you earned it..

I didn't choose for God, I chose for myself. God gave me choices to make, and I, freely and happily chose life, which He set before me through His truth. And, this isn't boasting, for I never said I am better or smarter than others, but rather, chose life as God has given this choice to every man, woman, and child.

Having choices is indeterminate in man, for many times, man does not know how he will choose until he is faced with the choice before him. Hopefully, he will choose wisely according to truths from God. Many times he will not know how or what to choose.

BTW, it wasn't all me for seeking and finding God. No need to go to extremes to try to prove your point. If anyone is putting me on a pedestal, it is your thoughts and preconceived notions about how I was saved and live the life God gave me.

One more thing, did you find anywhere in the OT where the Paschal Lamb was sacrificed to take away sin, or had anything to do with sin? I would like to know where people get the idea the Paschal Lamb was killed for this purpose in the OT.

Hammster · May 10, 2014

EmSw said:
Who doesn't have grounds to boast? Anyone of the Reformed belief surely has grounds to boast because God chose them over others. So I say it's not relevant whether or not one has grounds to boast, for we all have grounds to boast, but, it's very relevant whether we choose to boast or not.

I am saved because I chose to hear and obey the ONE who has the words of eternal life (John 6:68).

Why did you choose to hear and obey?

EmSw · May 11, 2014

Hammster said:
Why did you choose to hear and obey?

Well, quite frankly, heaven sounded much better than hell!

Hammster · May 11, 2014

EmSw said:
Well, quite frankly, heaven sounded much better than hell!

What do you think about people who believe the opposite?

sdowney717 · May 11, 2014

1 Corinthians 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)

7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

1 Peter 1

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[c]

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

Passover exodus 12
Exodus 12 NKJV - The Passover Instituted - Now the LORD - Bible Gateway

Kill the Lamb without blemish or spot, put the blood over the door posts, so that death passes you by.
Christ our Passover lamb sacrificed for us that we would not perish in our sins but have everlasting life. Christ is perfect, sinless, unblemished and without spot and is our Passover.

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

EmSw · May 11, 2014

Hammster said:
What do you think about people who believe the opposite?

They have the free will to believe or not.

Let me ask, why did you freely choose to hear and obey Jesus and His words of eternal life?

EmSw · May 11, 2014

sdowney717 said:
1 Corinthians 5:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

I agree the Paschal Lamb was sacrificed for us; however, it was never associated with taking away sins. Exodus 12 gives us the definite reason why it was sacrificed:

13 The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

It was so no plagues which affected Egypt would befall them; nothing to do with taking away sins.

Also notice, the children of Israel had to DO something during Passover or they would be cut off. They had to remove all leaven from their household (vs. 14-20). This was not a passive event; they had to do something or be cut off.

Another very important thing the children of Israel had to do, or the Passover Lamb meant nothing to them, was to take hyssop, dip it into the sacrificed lamb's blood and apply it to their door posts. Do you think man today has to do something with the Lord's blood for the sacrifice to apply to them?

sdowney717 said:
1 Peter 1

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each ones work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.

This says nothing of the Paschal Lamb. Leviticus 4 & 5 speak of a lamb which makes atonement for sin, but this is not the Passover Lamb.

Also, goats, turtledoves, and pigeons could also be sacrificed for the atonement of sins.

sdowney717 said:
Passover exodus 12
Exodus 12 NKJV - The Passover Instituted - Now the LORD - Bible Gateway

Kill the Lamb without blemish or spot, put the blood over the door posts, so that death passes you by. Christ our Passover lamb sacrificed for us that we would not perish in our sins but have everlasting life. Christ is perfect, sinless, unblemished and without spot and is our Passover.

Here again, the Passover Lamb is taken to mean we would not perish in our sins. This is not the reason for the Passover Lamb (see above).

I would say do not take any man's word about the Passover Lamb until you study it for yourself. Find where the Passover Lamb is mentioned in the OT and settle it for yourself.

Legionwrex · May 12, 2014

Why do Calvinists even care when people are only doing what God made them to do. Frankly, I'm sick of beating around the bush. Either God is directly responsible for evil in the world or he isn't.

But according to Calvinism some part of him willed for the Devil and his angels to fall and for man to fall away. But wait, then God has the nerve to throw a hissy fit over something he did and punish living creatures for eternity over something that is entirely his fault to begin with? I don't know about he rest of you, but if that's how God is, hell is starting to sound better and better.

EmSw · May 12, 2014

EmSw said:
Let me ask, why did you freely choose to hear and obey Jesus and His words of eternal life?

Hammster, you forgot to answer this question.

Hammster · May 12, 2014

EmSw said:
They have the free will to believe or not.

Let me ask, why did you freely choose to hear and obey Jesus and His words of eternal life?

Once God gave me a new heart, I could do nothing other than believe.

FreeGrace2 · May 13, 2014

Skala said:
Why do Arminians always argue against election?

Don't they, too, believe in election?

For example, here is one Arminian who makes arguments about the elect:

Arminians believe in election, too. The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is not whether or not people were elected before the foundation of the world, but rather, on what basis they were elected. That is the only difference.

Yet here is an Arminian poster who is making an argument against Calvinism in that the elect never experience hellfire, and thus were never really in danger of perishing, etc. He thinks he's arguing against Calvinism, but in fact he's arguing against Arminianism too, because Arminianism believes in election and believes that the elect are those who believe and persevere to the end!

The real issue is what is the purpose of election, as Paul noted in Rom 9:11.

Those who think God elects people unconditionally to salvation are simply wrong. There are NO verses that say that. God does choose who to save, for sure. In fact, 1 Cor 1:21 clearly indicates that. And 2 Thess 2:13 tells us that God chooses for salvationthrough faith in the truth. Pretty clear.

Simply choosing and electing are not the same. Yes, there is overlap, but they are distinct.

Every election involves a choice. But very few choices involve election. That is the clear difference.

EmSw · May 13, 2014

Hammster said:
Once God gave me a new heart, I could do nothing other than believe.

That's great Hammster, but have you read why Israel received a new heart?

Ezekiel 11 -
17 Therefore say, Thus says the Lord God, I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 When they come there, they will remove all its detestable things and all its abominations from it.
19 And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh

Notice Israel received a new heart AFTER removing all its detestable things and abominations. Also in Ezekiel 18 -

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

We first see Israel having to remove detestable things and all its abominations; now we see them repenting and turning away from their transgressions before they received a new heart.

Was this how you received your new heart? Surely you must have received it the way the Bible states. Once we remove our detestable things and abominations, along with repenting and turning from our transgressions, are we able to hear and obey the truth of the Lord.

If you received a new heart any other way, please explain how that was accomplished.

Hammster · May 13, 2014

EmSw said:
That's great Hammster, but have you read why Israel received a new heart?

Ezekiel 11 -
17 Therefore say, Thus says the Lord God, I will gather you from the peoples and assemble you out of the countries among which you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.
18 When they come there, they will remove all its detestable things and all its abominations from it.
19 And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh

Notice Israel received a new heart AFTER removing all its detestable things and abominations. Also in Ezekiel 18 -

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

We first see Israel having to remove detestable things and all its abominations; now we see them repenting and turning away from their transgressions before they received a new heart.

Was this how you received your new heart? Surely you must have received it the way the Bible states. Once we remove our detestable things and abominations, along with repenting and turning from our transgressions, are we able to hear and obey the truth of the Lord.

If you received a new heart any other way, please explain how that was accomplished.

Therefore, say to the house of Israel: This is what the Lord God says: It is not for your sake that I will act, house of Israel, but for My holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you went. I will honor the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations the name you have profaned among them. The nations will know that I am Yahweh the declaration of the Lord God when I demonstrate My holiness through you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:22-27 HCSB)

EmSw · May 13, 2014

Hammster said:
Therefore, say to the house of Israel: This is what the Lord God says: It is not for your sake that I will act, house of Israel, but for My holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you went. I will honor the holiness of My great name, which has been profaned among the nations the name you have profaned among them. The nations will know that I am Yahweh the declaration of the Lord God when I demonstrate My holiness through you in their sight. For I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. I will also sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will place My Spirit within you and cause you to follow My statutes and carefully observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:22-27 HCSB)

That's part of receiving a new heart; why do you ignore the part I gave?

How could Israel repent and turn from their transgressions without a new heart?

Hammster · May 13, 2014

EmSw said:
That's part of receiving a new heart; why do you ignore the part I gave?

How could Israel repent and turn from their transgressions without a new heart?

Obviously they didn't. That's the point. That's what got us to chapter 36.

Marvin Knox · May 13, 2014

With some doctrines in the Bible it is possible to have a different position than a brother and still not be sure who is right in their position. Election isn't one of them.

This is one of the few major doctrines in the Bible where God has given us an iron clad test to see if we are right or wrong. After laying out the case for election in Romans 8 and 9 God gives us that test.

First we have the "golden" chain of salvation given to us in Romans 8. Many (even the vast majority of evangelicals) say that "foreknew" means that God saw our faith and elected us because we first elected Him as it were. That is to say that He looked through time and saw what we would do and based on that He declared us "elect" before the foundation of the world.

Of course such purposeful twisting of scripture rivals that of the Jehovah's Witness group in it's purposeful boldness. They do a very similar twisting to get around the obvious fact that Jesus is God. Both twisting of scripture are on the same level and should be condemned no matter how many people do it.

As if to make sure that no one makes such a foolish apraisement of the passage - God gives us the clear statement in chapter 9 concerning the twins. Even after that passage people still hold to the before mentioned twisted interpretation.

God seems to think that this concept is so important to our view of grace that He will not leave it up for grabs. He gives us the "acid test" so that we can be sure we are not teaching heresy.

"You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? (Romans 9:19)

The simple procedure is to ask yourself whether your particular position (sovereign election of self election through faith) usually or indeed ever yields the above response from listeners to your teaching concerning election.

In my particular case ("Calvinistic" election teaching) the answer to the acid test question is (depending somewhat on the setting) "almost every time".

For those who teach the, shall we call it, non-Calvinistic position of foreseen faith equaling the reason for God's calling us His elect - the answer is almost always if not always "never".

The reason for this failure to hear the question asked when they teach is the simple fact that the teaching is formulated precisely to get around the implications of sovereign election.

The correct teaching concerning election become so obvious that even the unregenerate could figure it our. If you are regenerate - I'm sure you can as well. Don't wait to have the Lord point it out to you at the judgment seat of Christ. There will be a stricter judgment there for teachers.

FreeGrace2 · May 14, 2014

Marvin Knox said:
With some doctrines in the Bible it is possible to have a different position than a brother and still not be sure who is right in their position. Election isn't one of them.

This is one of the few major doctrines in the Bible where God has given us an iron clad test to see if we are right or wrong. After laying out the case for election in Romans 8 and 9 God gives us that test.

First we have the "golden" chain of salvation given to us in Romans 8. Many (even the vast majority of evangelicals) say that "foreknew" means that God saw our faith and elected us because we first elected Him as it were. That is to say that He looked through time and saw what we would do and based on that He declared us "elect" before the foundation of the world.

Of course such purposeful twisting of scripture rivals that of the Jehovah's Witness group in it's purposeful boldness. They do a very similar twisting to get around the obvious fact that Jesus is God. Both twisting of scripture are on the same level and should be condemned no matter how many people do it.

As if to make sure that no one makes such a foolish apraisement of the passage - God gives us the clear statement in chapter 9 concerning the twins. Even after that passage people still hold to the before mentioned twisted interpretation.

God seems to think that this concept is so important to our view of grace that He will not leave it up for grabs. He gives us the "acid test" so that we can be sure we are not teaching heresy.

"You will say to me then, Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will? (Romans 9:19)

The simple procedure is to ask yourself whether your particular position (sovereign election of self election through faith) usually or indeed ever yields the above response from listeners to your teaching concerning election.

In my particular case ("Calvinistic" election teaching) the answer to the acid test question is (depending somewhat on the setting) "almost every time".

For those who teach the, shall we call it, non-Calvinistic position of foreseen faith equaling the reason for God's calling us His elect - the answer is almost always if not always "never".

The reason for this failure to hear the question asked when they teach is the simple fact that the teaching is formulated precisely to get around the implications of sovereign election.

The correct teaching concerning election become so obvious that even the unregenerate could figure it our. If you are regenerate - I'm sure you can as well. Don't wait to have the Lord point it out to you at the judgment seat of Christ. There will be a stricter judgment there for teachers.

I posted this yesterday, which has so far been ignored:
Simply choosing and electing are not the same. Yes, there is overlap, but they are distinct.

Every election involves a choice. But very few choices involve election. That is the clear difference.
Do you agree or disagree? If you disagree, why? Thanks.

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